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Introducing Dead Lies Dreaming

I've got a new book coming out next October 27th. And it's one I haven't said very much about, because it wasn't actually supposed to happen.

So here's a discursive history of events leading up to "Dead Lies Dreaming", and then an explanation of my train-wreck of a schedule (and how I got mugged by an entirely unplanned book).

Let's rewind to the heady days of 2007. I'd had an epic six year breakthrough run, with about eight books coming out in a five year period, multiple consecutive Hugo nominations (and a win), and I was getting a handle on the whole writing-for-a-living thing. But I was also 43 years old, and feeling extremely burned out, because I peaked at three novels in one year and had been averaging two a year for the first half of the decade. It's possible to write more than that — a lot more — if you follow a formula, but I was trying to break ground, so every book had to be fresh and different. So I resolved to take a sabbatical, a six to nine month period in which I didn't need to write a novel or do anything except relax, process, and rebuild my creative energy. To make it work, I wrote a novella ("Palimpsest", which won a Hugo in 2010) and bolted it on top of a bunch of other short works to make a collection ("Wireless") which could be published in 2009. And then I tried to take a break —

Only my father got ill. By which I mean "emergency hospital admission, not expected to survive the night" kind of ill. He survived, and then he was in a coma for three weeks, and when he awakened he was hemilaterally paralysed, and after a month he began to get some movement back but wasn't expected to ever walk again, and then —

Well, not only did he walk again, he got to do lots of things again, and he lived another decade, which was good. But my carefully planned sabbatical was spent on hospital bedside visits and anxiety, although at least I got a break from writing.

Let's fast forward to 2017. My father got ill again that spring, and being 93, he didn't recover. I'd spent the year leading up to his death writing a draft of "Ghost Engine", a wide-screen space opera, but there is this thing about people dying: it taints any creative project you're emotionally invested in that you're working on at the time, and only distance will let you get your detachment back, and with it the ability to work on that project. (To this day, "Ghost Engine" is still waiting for me to get back to the paused second draft.) Because I had a deadline to hit and couldn't emotionally engage with the book I was supposed to hand in the month after he died, I negotiated a substitute: I knew what the ninth Laundry Files book was about a long time before I wrote it, so I squeezed out "The Labyrinth Index" in a hurry. And then I really burned out, and botched the third re-write of "Invisible Sun" so badly I came down with a case of writers' block. It was clearly time for another sabbatical, so I asked for a revised deadline and then took six months off.

Then my mother had two (or maybe three) strokes and went into hospital for three months, followed by most of a year hanging on in a specialist nursing home. She was 90.

While this was happening I should have been working on "Invisible Sun" or "Ghost Engine", both of which were scheduled and already way overdue. But not only was I burned out: I was spending about a third of my time traveling to and from the nursing home (and recovering from the visits). Even if you're not a front-line carer, dealing with a terminal illness in the immediate family is immensely draining. Also: I knew for a certainty that my mother was going to die at some point in the next couple of months, and it would poison whatever book I was working on at the time, all over again.

So I gave myself permission to go off-track and write whatever I felt like, in the hope that not having a deadline would give me room to at least write something, even if it was unsalable. Therapy writing, in other words.

Fast-forward to March 2019 and, to nobody's surprise, "Invisible Sun" and "Ghost Engine" weren't going anywhere ... but my mother was still alive, and meanwhile I had a new and wholly unexpected book with the working title "Lost Boys". (Which hastily got renamed "Dead Lies Dreaming" because the cult vampire movie "Lost Boys" got a streaming TV show make-over in 2019, and only an idiot goes up against a cult media property on Amazon/Google search.)

As of March 2019 I had been writing the Laundry Files for 20 years. Bob and the other protagonists have aged about 18 years in that time, and the world around them has changed enormously. Spies in 2019 do not mean what they meant in 1999. The political landscape in 2019 is different, and not in a good way, from 1999. "The Delirium Brief" and "The Labyrinth Index" attempted to keep the Laundry Files relevant, but it's a losing game. I really need to end the Laundry Files: I think they've got at most two books left to run

But while I don't want to go on writing about the Laundry, I have other stories to tell in the same setting.

"Dead Lies Dreaming" was never meant to exist. I was blowing off steam and doing therapy-writing for stress relief while dealing with unpleasant real-life stuff. But it does exist (and worse, so does the first half of the second book in the trilogy), and it's coming out on October 27th, from Orbit in the UK and Tor.com in the USA. They're calling it book 10 in the Laundry Files. Reader, "Dead Lies Dreaming" is not book 10 in the Laundry Files. The real book 10 hasn't been written yet (it's on my to-do list for 2020 or 2021: if I stick to current plans, it'll be the story of Mike Armstrong, the Senior Auditor).

There are no Bob and Mo in "Dead Lies Dreaming". Indeed, the only characters from the Laundry Files who show up are the Prime Minister (who makes a cameo appearance on TV), and a very confused Transnistrian Mafia Loss Adjuster. It is, in short, the start of a whole new series.

"Dead Lies Dreaming" focuses on ordinary life on the home front under the New Management: from the sprawling corporate empire of a billionaire hedge-fund oligarch and cultist, to a tumbledown squat occupied by a found family of art college dropouts and e-sports grifters, to a dream-quest through darkest 1889 Whitechapel in search of the long lost concordance to the true Necronomicon. There is not a single spy to be found in the entire book! There are supervillains, though: and cops and private-sector thief-takers, and a harried executive assistant; not to mention the entire book is as unremarkably gay as a very gay thing indeed (possibly even more so than "Rule 34").

This is not the Laundry Files. It's Laundry-adjacent, however, and it tackles the sort of social themes that a cumbersome government bureaucracy mired in paperclip audits and ISO9000 form-filling simply can't touch: crime and justice, deviance and conformism, life in a time of creeping and pervasive environmental crisis. (Magic. Magic everywhere, like rising sea levels and extreme weather events.) If you like it, there will be more of this sort of thing even after Bob, Mo, and the Laundry have sung their final encore and ridden off into the sunset. And as I said, it's already in production for publication at the end of October.

As for "Invisible Sun", it's top of my to-do list. Nothing is going to pre-empt it until I can shift it to the "out" tray. However, I can say with some certainty that it is not going to come out before 2021: I just hope nobody else dies before it's done. My editor David Hartwell, who commissioned the entire Merchant Princes series, died during the first draft. Then my father died right before I burned out on the third draft. Then my mother died while I was rewriting it for a fourth time. And now my wife is really worried ...

1322 Comments

1:

The decade's been a whole heap of shitty, but I've got to say I do like the new title. 'Dead Lies Dreaming' beats anything I came up with, by a long long mile; kudos to whoever chose it.

As for the trauma-delayed works... perhaps a way out for Ghost Engine would be to hand it off to a trusted collaborator to complete? Perhaps they also have something lying around gathering dust for you to return the favour with.

2:
I was blowing off steam and doing therapy-writing for stress relief

Rather puts me in mind of Richard Feynman's experience of burnout. He felt unable to face any "real" physics, but one day in the canteen he noticed the strange way a plate wobbled when someone spun it. He started writing down equations to model the motion, just out of curiosity. Then he noticed a connection between these equations and a problem he'd worked on in the past, and hey presto he was doing physics again.

3:

There are times when I'm blocked and just walk away and put on TV news or something. My wife wants to talk it out and engage me. I have to keep telling her I just want to decompress. Talking about "it" or anything else is not decompressing. Well really letting my mind empty of all the cruft so I can get a fresh start.

4:

"Dead Lies Dreaming" was 100% my title :)

(Echoes of Lovecraft, and it's also a unique on google and amazon search, which doesn't hurt.)

It was originally "Lost Boys" because it plays chords in the key of "Peter Pan" -- the original by J. M. Barrie (which was extremely dark), not the abominably twee, saccharine Disney version. ("Peter Pan" was written to explain to five year olds why their siblings weren't coming home from the hospital -- in an era where infant mortality was around 20% before the 5th birthday, this was something far too many parents needs to explain.)

The second book, currently titled "Meat Lies Bleeding", deals with Sweeney Todd (not twee) and Mary Poppins (the original P. L. Travers version, again: it was Disney who made her twee, the original Mary Poppins was a narcissistic, amoral witch). And it recomplicates and darkens everything in the first book, while adding a vision of what customer-facing retail work is like in the world of the New Management (i.e. increasingly hellish, and they're picking up ideas from WalMart in the USA, as seen in "The Labyrinth Index").

5:

Well, the books sound delightfully dark and depressing. You've not been reading Peter Watts, have you?

6:

Meanwhile, Graydon Saunders has pre-announced the fifth Commonwealth book, "A Mist of Grit and Splinters", coming out on January 17th. (Note: ebook only, and won't show up on Amazon because Graydon doesn't like Amazon's policies.) I strongly recommend this series as what you get when high fantasy starts to interrogate its own baked-in assumptions about Power and Law, not to mention militarism.

This is probably not the best starting point (Graydon?) -- I'd rec "A Succession of Bad Days" with the proviso that it's only the first half of a novel (concluded in "Safely You Deliver").

7:

Nope, no Peter Watts recently! And there is a happy ending -- of a sort -- to "Dead Lies Dreaming" (although if the trilogy happens, it's going to get a lot darker before the light at the end of the tunnel).

8:

When you first announced the new title, it reminded me of something, and I finally realized it was Tidhar’s “A Man Lies Dreaming”—which I really ought to find a copy of and read, along with his other books that I already have. Anyhow, looking forward to the new trilogy.

9:

Depending on how things play out, hopefully I'll come out with new work this year. Admittedly I'm thinking about this as either self-published or a web-novel. I'm working on it, but, well...

I know a bit about burnout, after Hot Earth Dreams, which I published a month after my bachelor uncle died (guess who's been sorting through his estate?). Writing about the end of civilization is hard, and I decided to do something about climate change rather than write about it.

Then the economic boom bit down, DC turned orange, and bribing the political appointees running the environmental agencies became the thing to do (suborning the boss shuts up a lot of highly skilled employees). A bunch of developers decided to try a mass attack on dismantling all the environmental plans for San Diego County (which, incidentally, has more native plant species than does the entire island of Britain), and I got more involved in fighting that. The worst part were seven huge sprawl developments that would effectively gut all the environmental plans the county had created, and the effort included buying off the county supervisors who approve such things. Anyway, five of those developments are in court, two are coming up in front of the stuporvisors on their way to court, and there's also a ballot measure in March that's designed to make such plutocrat-led anti-planning efforts a bit harder in the future, if it passes. So I've got another few months of environmental stuff, then hopefully I can write some more and hopefully earn a bit of money which may well go into fighting off the next spasm of greed in a few years.

Hate to say it, but I'm really hoping for a recession right about now. I seem to get more writing done when there's less money flowing through the system. Lot of hope right now...

10:

Yes, well ... my mother had late-diagnosed cancer, back in the primitive days of 1960/1 ( And then only because my father bullied the quack ) ... they thought they had "got it", but of course they hadn't ... I went to uni in autumn 1964 ... & dad didn't update me on how bad it was ... I was summoned home in extreme emergency ... to meet something that vaguely resembed a very bad Gerald Scarfe cartoon of my mother, with wierd skin clour, barely able to talk - she died that night ( & should have been dead a week before ) - she'd been waiting fo me ... My first bash at university fell apart, I failed my degree comprehensively, because I got ZERO backup from the authorities & it took me another 24 years before I got my MSc. Trainwreck - yeah. So - I understand, all to well, what that can do to ones' "productivity" or mental processes.

.... When is "Invisible Sun" coming out, if you know - because it's the third of the "Empire Games" subset, isn't it? ... ah yes, thanks. ( oops ) Laundry files have at most two books to run Am I imagining things, or have you curtailed the arc - I thought it was 4 or 5 ... ( Might be my memory of course )

Dream-quest through Whitechapel ... Ah well the Ripper meets Unknown Kadath, maybe. With or without input from "Jack London" - or even Joseph Conrad?

I think I might want to look at Graydon Saunders .....

Heteromeles Actually, a recession that's obvious BEFORE November 2020 would be a very good thing - (almost) anything to clip Trump's wings Did you see that prediction, that DT could lose by FIVE MILLION VOTES & still get the Elctoral College? A recipe for US low-level civil war, either way .....

11:

When is "Invisible Sun" coming out, if you know

It was previously scheduled for March 2019. Then March 2020. March 2020 is now the deadline for the manuscript -- which will probably be missed -- with March 2021 as likely publication date (there's a 12 month lead time, because Tor is a sausage machine cranking out >100 titles/year, and you have to wait for your slot on the conveyor belt).

The third draft was a hot mess (burnout/dad's death): I actually completely forgot (and consequently left out) two major plot strands from the previous two books. Then $EDITOR tried to do a book doctor job on it and their workflow was wildly incompatible with my own, while mum was dying. So right now I'm working to clear the deck and get my self-confidence back by actually finishing something, before I go and death-march it (hopefully to a satisfactory series-appropriate conclusion).

(I will note that at the point when I ground to a halt, "Invisible Sun" looked likely to be 50% longer than any previous Merchant Princes book. It's not obvious that it won't keep expanding indefinitely, because I have so many loose ends to tie up, but in principle I want to finish the goddamn series, so ...)

I originally thought that "Ghost Engine" would be the start of a new series, although it works as a stand-alone. I suspect the series-slot in my brain has now been pre-empted by "Dead Lies Dreaming", although I still intend to get "Ghost Engine" finished, as soon as possible after "Invisible Sun".

12:

Note that today's blog entry and comments effectively pre-empt a day's worth of writing, and this is normal for me blogging. So if I'm working productively, there's less blogging.

13:

Actually, a recession that's obvious BEFORE November 2020 would be a very good thing - (almost) anything to clip Trump's wings

Did see the predictions, not going to derail this thread beyond noting that I suspect the whole point of that tax cut (e.g. dump vast quantities of government money into the economy in ways that enrich the super-rich) was simply to avoid having a recession right about now, so that he can get re-elected. Remember, extreme wealth is about control, not ownership, because ownership is taxable.

That said, politics is both a problem and an opportunity for SF. The problem is that a lot of the traditional tropes look really problematic now. Actually, they were always problematic, but the audience for SFF didn't really want to deal with the problems until recently (and I'm definitely in that not-dealing category, sadly). The grim opportunity is that, if we do continue a rightwards lurch towards authoritarianism worldwide, SF may well benefit, both from the right-wing SF and also from using alien settings to talk about things that would otherwise be verboten in general discussion (these aliens are structurally bisexual. Allow me to expound on the hypothetical situations these fascinating beings deal with in their personal lives...).

14:

I am cursed with the belief that I have got good ideas and advice about things I have no talent or experience of, and other are cursed by my inability to refrain from delivering it.

I have always liked the idea of writing, found myself unable to do any, and so you can imagine just how I'm just itching to Solve Your Problems.

Anyway, these creative stymies you're having; if collaboration is out, maybe the best thing to hack your brain into productivity might be to do some throwaway edits/rewrites/expansions in the voice of someone else. Pastiches, just to have some fun, hit the problem sideways, trick your brain into throwing up something unexpected. Oooh, maybe write the story as a character would.

I really can't help myself. Sorry.

15:

As an artist, I am very much looking forward to a Strossian take on art college dropouts. I understand about the Laundry running its course, but I gotta admit, I will miss Mo (she’s such a well-realized female character).

16:

Graydon Saunders has pre-announced the fifth Commonwealth book, "A Mist of Grit and Splinters", coming out on January 17th

Yay! I was pondering a comment along the lines of "I suppose the 2019 expectation is unlikely with only 5 hours left"...

And there's even a pre-order link which has been duly followed

17:

Oh, your Ghost Engine (a search showed me others).

Burnout. '95-'97, I was working for Ameritech, one of the old Baby Bells. The phone companies were noted for insane schedules; a fan friend of mine, practicing degreed psychologist, told me that just from talking to me the end of the summer before my late wife dropped dead for no particular reason at 43, that it was her professional opinion that I was that close to clinical burnout (a year and a half of 10, 12, some 14, and the occasional 16 hour day, with a LOT of pages 7 days a week will do that to you).

Right now, when I hit a wall in the writing, I've graduated from solitaire to freecell, and sooner or later, I have to stop and start typing.

Best of luck, Charlie.

18:

The original Mary Poppins may have been more than that, depending on how you interpret the chapter about installing stars in the sky.

19:

Most of Graydon’s Commonweal novels involve a lot of details of the world - the nature of sorcerers, of the anarcho-syndicalist society.. The world is amazing, and what the novels showcase, but it is also difficult to grasp. It is always “show don’t tell” so you need to work to understand it - expect to need to think when reading his work.

Which is why I think the best starting point is the first novel. “The March North” is a truly extraordinary book, but it follows a small and desperate military force outside the borders of the Commonweal, so as an introduction to how the Commonweal works it is more approachable as you have a smaller simpler bit of the society to grok rather than trying to get your head around the lot at once.

Also... honestly the series gets a bit Mary-Sue about the sorcerers in later books. In a world of epically powerful mages the protagonists end up epically powerfuller. Like all such series, each narrative event of even-greater power is lots of fun, but the end state you reach is less fun overall.

20:

Ok, I give up: how to I buy a copy of The March North for download? I see Amazon or google want me to read it online.

21:

Graydon doesn't sell his books via Amazon. Your best bet is to buy it on the Google Play store, then download the (DRM-free) epub, which will be readable on anything that can display epub files.

22:

I think I might want to look at Graydon Saunders .....

You won't regret it…

23:

(about Graydon Saunders Commonweal series) I strongly recommend this series as what you get when high fantasy starts to interrogate its own baked-in assumptions about Power and Law, not to mention militarism.

Also, it has an interesting magic system and lots of competent people; I love the sapphire bathtubs to bits. :)

24:

I think you are unfairly harsh to Mary Poppins. She was, indeed, quite narcissistic and egocentric, but she was not amoral. She was actually quite strictly moral, though in an unconventional way. And it would be more proper to consider her a minor goddess than a witch. (She is, after all, supposed to be related to the Sun.)

That said, many of the standard works for children are properly understood as an encounter with death. I first noticed that in the Oz books, but it's clearly also true in "Alice in Wonderland", and, as you point out, "Peter Pan". And the traditional fairy tales aren't even subtle about it.

FWIW, I feel the arbitrary decisions that Mary Poppins makes are intended as a reflection of how children see the (unappealable) decisions that adults make about them without consulting them. Notice that it never does them injury, though it often makes them unhappy or frightens them. This is not amoral. If you want to see amoral, look at the decisions made by politicians or corporate executives.

25:

Heh. Look at "fairy tales" when they're not cleaned up for Victorian and post-Victorian society.

One that my mother used to tell - and I don't know if I've seen it in a book - is this: The grandmother puts all seven kids to bed, and tells them she has to go get (something - wood?), and not to open the door until she comes back.

Not long after she leaves, one of the kids does something (opens a shutter?), and gets back in bed. Shortly after that, a huge wolf breaks in (through the unshuttered window?), and eats all the kids, except for the littlest, who was up against the wall, and slid down under the bed.

The wolf leaves, and a little bit later, the grandmother comes back. The littlest comes out and tells her what happened. Bringing the kid with her, she tracks the wolf, to find him by a river, sleeping off his huge meal. She has the little one collect a bunch of stones, and she cuts the wolf open, and lets all six children, still alive, out. Then she puts the stones into the wolf's stomach, and sews him up. They wade across the stream, and start yelling. The wolf wakes up, and, seeing them, charges into the stream... but with all the stones in him, he goes under, and the stream drowns him and takes him away.

Not exactly Disney, eh?

26:

I have a knitting project I was working on while I sat with my mother as she was dying. It's been unfinished for 14 years. Sometimes I need to either frog it (rip-it, rip-it) or finish it. (Funny thing, since she died I've had almost no reason to do cross-stitch. I used to do it a lot. I think it may have been a case of "anything you can do, I can do at least as well".)

27:

Charlie,

Remember, The Laundry Files is about the "Files" not the characters. There are literally miles of shelves filled with files that you can draw from for stories.

You do not have to keep moving forward in the timeline to tell fun stories from the Laundry Files. You don't need to actually hit CASE NIGHTMARE GREEN.

  • The Laundry Files is a container, fill it with whatever stories go in the LaundryVerse.

I agree with Greg @10. Where are the Laundry Files by Gaslight?

Readers want to know. HA!

That gives you the freedom to write anything because we know that somewhere the Laundry is taking care of business.

As example:

Tom Clancy wrote the Jack Ryan stories, starting with The Hunt For Red October(1984), moving up and down the timeline. The stories make more sense read in "publishing order" rather than following the timeline linearly.

Heteromeles @9 said: Admittedly I'm thinking about this as either self-published or a web-novel.

Self-publish, it doesn't cost anything. Be sure to price your ebook and paper better. The current price for your Hot Earth Dreams ebook is ridiculous, nobody is going to pay 19 bucks for an ebook, and the paper would work better at 11.99.

It's as if you don't want people to buy your book.

whitroth @17 said: Right now, when I hit a wall in the writing, I've graduated from solitaire to freecell, and sooner or later, I have to stop and start typing.

I have a large screen iMac, so when I need to step away from writing, I have a jigsaw puzzle program called BrainsBreaker 5 that lets me start solving a puzzle, a few pieces at a time, then I can get back to writing.

28:

""Dead Lies Dreaming" focuses on ordinary life on the home front under the New Management: from the sprawling corporate empire of a billionaire hedge-fund oligarch and cultist, to a tumbledown squat occupied by a found family of art college dropouts and e-sports grifters, to a dream-quest through darkest 1889 Whitechapel in search of the long lost concordance to the true Necronomicon."

The two associations that immediately come to mind are Iain Banks and The Talons of Weng-Chiang, so I reckon this is going to be a cracker.

The title is excellent, too, though I have to say I'm not so keen on the second one. The first one is a transfinite doomy echo of Lovecraft reverberating endlessly through the eternal dark, but the second one is the mundane and brief thwack of meat on a butcher's slab.

You seem to have a knack for picking "standard childhood references" that never formed a part of mine. Conversations of people around me had occasionally included mentions of Captain Cook or Captain Hook which I didn't understand and I could never get hold of which one was right or if they were the same or not; the confusion pissed me off and the result was that by the time I was 5 I was already firmly of the opinion that Peter Pan could get fucked, although I lacked the vocabulary to express it, without having ever read a word or viewed a second of it. Mary Poppins was something I became aware of a couple of years later, by which point the whole idea of a magic nanny was obviously too silly for words so I never read beyond the cover.

Nor have I since then ever encountered any reason not to believe they were the kind of cultural baggage I was better off for not lugging around with me anyway, so I hope I don't miss out on too much...

29:

I've read that but not heard it, so it must be in a book somewhere. Thought it was basically silly because of all the bits that obviously couldn't really work, which seems to be pretty much how I usually did react to fairy stories. I'd guess that maybe the reason I didn't find SF unpalatable on the same grounds was that the bits that don't work are not so closely related to everyday experience so I didn't yet find them obvious.

30:

Thirded? Fourthed?

Anything Graydon writes is worth reading. It can be utterly different, but always fun :)

31:

S P Z @ 23 when high fantasy starts to interrogate its own baked-in assumptions about Power and Law, not to mention militarism. Like Tolkien, you mean? The downfall of Numenor / the arrogance of Earnur / the Kin-Strife ... etc. ... leading on to ...How few adults actually realise just how utterly scary "Jabberwocky" is, or the Jabberwock itself? ( Of course, Zelazny understood, but then, he would ...

32:

Just got The March North on Kobo. DRM free. Yaay! I've often found new authors recommended, or guest blogging here worth a read, so high hopes for this one.

33:

Remember, The Laundry Files is about the "Files" not the characters. There are literally miles of shelves filled with files that you can draw from for stories.

WRONG.

The series is only called "the Laundry Files" because around 2009 an order came down from On High within Penguin group that any series with >3 books had to have a series name, and my editor also published Jim Butcher and thought something riffing off "the Dresden Files" would be good for sales. It's not my choice of a series title, but they pinned the tail on the donkey and it's proven remarkably hard to shed.

By coincidence, I also discovered a neat trick you can do with first-person narratives, if you discover a world-building inconsistency or need to retcon something: you can declare your narrator to be unreliable. I then used the "workplace files" conceit as a frame for subsequent books, to make it easier to continue to use the same (flawed) setting as the first circa-1999 story in newer works. (Alas, this trick couldn't be used for the world of "Singularity Sky"/"Iron Sunrise" because I used third person/omniscient viewpoints.)

Anyway ... the stories are all about the people, as they age and learn and adjust to life in a world beset by a horrible, slowly worsening existential crisis -- CASE NIGHTMARE GREEN started out as a one-line throw-away in "The Concrete Jungle" to justify the existence of a gadget, but turns out (20 years later) to be a really useful metaphor for anthropogenic climate change, and the New Management is another metaphor for the creeping global fascist takeover/age of chaos and misrule we seem to have slid into.

Anyway: I know how the story of Bob and his co-workers ends, more or less. I could get there in one book, but there's room for a character study of the Senior Auditor along the way. And if I have the energy I should write the long-overdue origin story for Derek the DM, who still has a role to play (despite looking kind of dead at the end of "The Labyrinth Index").

But the new novels have nothing in common with the structure of the Laundry, except maybe the setting: it's like comparing Terry Pratchett's "Guards" novels with his Tiffany Aching (witches) books -- yes, discworld, but they're utterly different.

34:

Dead Lies Dreaming sounds absolutely wonderful. I've been looking forward to reading it since you first mentioned it here on the blog and the more I hear about it the better it sounds.

It's possible to write more than that — a lot more — if you follow a formula, but I was trying to break ground, so every book had to be fresh and different.

That's what I really love about the Laundry series. It hasn't quite been 20 years for me – I think I first read Atrocity Archives when I was 15, so that's like 12 years – but I've been a fan of the books for long enough to really appreciate the way the series has grown and developed over time. With the introduction of new characters and points of view, not to mention continually upping the stakes as CASE NIGHTMARE GREEN progresses, you never quite know what you're getting into, but it's been a fresh delight every time.

Which is why I'm so excited about the new spinoff. I've been wondering what life under the New Management is like for regular citizens. If they realize the existential horror of the situation or default to apathy as we did with Brexit-related political bollocks.

And if I have the energy I should write the long-overdue origin story for Derek the DM, who still has a role to play (despite looking kind of dead at the end of "The Labyrinth Index").

Ooh, yes please! Whether with this or other writing projects, I wish you much success in the new year.

35:

Ordered on Amazon. (They call this pre-ordering, for some reason that obviously has more to do with marketing than proper use of the English language.)

I always enjoy doing this, because it means that at some point in the not-so-near future, I will be surprised by a brand-new and much anticipated book appearing in my Kindle app. It's always a surprise, because the lead times are long enough that, by the time the book comes, I have always completely forgotten the release date.

36:

"Peter Pan" -- the original by J. M. Barrie (which was extremely dark)

Peter Pan is a much greater work of literature than it usually gets credit for being. I have had this discussion with numerous people who are sure it is a bit of childish tripe. What these people have in common is that they're so sure it's tripe they haven't bothered to read it.

Actually, they're half right -- it is childish, but in a way no other book I've read is. Barrie describes children as "gay and innocent and heartless". Getting that right (or trying to) is what makes the book as dark as it is.

37:

Goodness, thank you, Charlie!

Consensus is that it works best if you start with book 1 ("The March North") but that you can start with book 2 ("A Succession of Bad Days") if military fantasy puts you off.

These are all written with strict in-character narration and are intended to be immersive but there is a strong consensus that you have to work for it. (And nearly as strong a consensus that you keep it; people find re-reading much easier and generally rewarding, which makes me happy because the books are all intended to be able to support re-reading.)

Book 1/The March North has a military focus. (And you meet people you will see more of later.)

Book 2/A Succession of Bad Days is about going to sorcery school.

Book 3/Safely You Deliver is about leaving sorcery school

Book 4/Under One Banner is about artillery and what you do after trauma

Book 5/A Mist of Grit and Splinters is the new one; it's (mostly) from the viewpoint of Operational Excellence Barbie. It's entirely from a military viewpoint; the in-world thematic interrogation of iron-hearted man-slaying Achilles.

Books 2 and 3 form a thematic pair; books 4 and 5 form a thematic pair. (6 and 7 might, too, and then 1 and 8, but that's getting rather forward-looking. Writing things changes one's understanding of what exactly one is trying to do by writing.)

38:

Presuming Charlie's indulgence, here, but:

http://dubiousprospects.blogspot.com/2018/09/where-to-get-my-books.html

"Google Play" and "a bunch of Draft2Digital targets including Apple and Kobo". No Amazon.

39:

To the extent that I feel like I've got my own head around it enough to say anything about it, Dead Lies Dreaming isn't in the same specific genre as a Laundry book as we have known them.

The Laundry has the basic Cthulhu mythos objective of keeping from being dragged into the unknown and incomprehensible; they can measure their success by how far the needle of normalcy moved. They've got the institutional context as their choice of normalcy against which to measure.

The characters in Dead Lies Dreaming have no such context; they're trying to cope with personal history, the awful consequences of various enforced prescriptive norms, and the general short-term personal-scale exigencies of continuing to live. The feel is different and (to my reading) the sense of risk is much greater.

40:

From Wikipedia "A pre-order is an order placed for an item that has not yet been released."

They go on to discuss reasons why the concept exists (mostly to do with getting accurate sales numbers...)

41:

+100% on the Graydon. I preordered last night (this morning, really) after I got home from a New Years Eve Party.

Not sure I completely agree with the Mary-Sue characterization of the sorcery school candidates. They are shown to pay a great price for being so highly powered. Part of the price that they must pay is that a single misstep would be fatal to them - not just in learning the magic, but in applying the magic. Apply it in an illegal way, and the full resources of the state (including some other Deeply Scary Sorcerers) will be used to hunt you down and kill you.

You see some of the effects of this at play on a different character in book 4.

42:

In magic-related fiction, with great power there must come a sense of great personal jeopardy, otherwise it sacrifices dramatic tension. Unless you're writing competence porn, that is, or a particularly dull LitRPG.

(Graydon's magic system tends to be "we are researching the chemistry of atomic fluorine in the mid-19th century" in terms of jeopardy: you can follow progress in the field by reading the obituary columns, more or less.)

NB: someone a couple of weeks ago emailed me asking for a book rec thread. This is not that thread, but I really ought to set one up in the next week or so.

43:

Mary Poppins ... was, indeed, quite narcissistic and egocentric, ... And it would be more proper to consider her a minor goddess than a witch. (She is, after all, supposed to be related to the Sun.)

Yes. One can perceive her charisma, and why the Banks kids love her, despite her severity.

Yet Charlie's point that the movie destroyed the character still holds. I loved the books when I was a kid, and I hated, hated, HATED the movie, which came out when I was eight. (The first one, with Julie Andrews. Haven't seen the more recent Emily Blunt incarnation.) It totally misrepresented her.

Disney has a lot to answer for in this respect.

44:

Disney butchered virtually every piece of folklore or pre-existing fiction he got his hands on. I don't really care about the stuff he invented himself -- he was entitled to do whatever he wanted with The Rat -- but his versions of the classic fairy tales are saccharine and bowdlerized, and it only gets worse the more modern the IP.

Happy thought: thanks to the Disney/Universal merger, apparently Ripley's Alien now fits the canonical definition of a Disney Princess? Or at least an evil queen.

45:

The sugar-coating and other hang-ups about death was very much a 19th century phenomenon in Britain, and didn't apply in all contexts even then. It may have been a bit later or more localised in the USA, but there's a reference in the Grapes of Wrath.

Re #44: I haven't seen the Disney crap, but even the Water Babies isn't as saccharine as it is often believed to be.

46:

I'm just going to note that in British (and American) 19th century culture sex was taboo, but death was accompanied by lots of crass commercialism, elaborate mourning rituals, subtle gradations of mourning costumes, peripheral industries (stonemasons? professional mourners?) and so on.

Whereas today porn is everywhere and sexuality is something we talk about, but death is unspeakable, hidden away and not acknowledged except when it's unavoidable.

47:

I read The Water Babies as a kid and it terrified me. Saccharine? Nope.

48:

Charlie In magic-related fiction, with great power there must come a sense of great personal jeopardy Saruman ... & Gandalf, too. death is unspeakable, hidden away and not acknowledged except when it's unavoidable. But ... death IS unspeakable .... & also unavoidable. I lost another very good friend fractionally over a year ago - another one younger than me, too. In spite of the pain, I hope to be the last one standing. RAGE against the dying of the light!

49:

On my "to-do (maybe)" list for this series is something provisionally flagged as "the Water Babies (with Deep Ones)".

Trouble is, I'd have to re-read the Water Babies before I could write it. Gaah.

50:

It's not my choice of a series title,

What would you have titled it?

@46: but death was accompanied by lots of crass commercialism,

Including commemorative photos of dead babies.

51:

Dead Lies Dreaming" / "Meat Lies Bleeding" / Heart steams pumping ... or something equally gruesome, then? [ As in "Heart of Darkness" of course, dealing with slavery except, except ....maybe a cross-cultural to Aztec or other S american practices ... or something ... via, perhaps Conan Doyle's "Lost World"]

52:

The Wizards School/Magic Academy is a big thing in Japanese light novels, manga and anime right now, slipstreaming off the isekai parallel-worlds megaboom/industry. It adds rules to magic with is otherwise a chaotic system, pupils and teachers, stuff written down for the edification of the survivors and successors as well as providing a playground for the writer to have jolly japes and perils aplenty while knowing it will all be over and done with by the time the school bell rings for supper. I blame JK Rowling.

Most of these stories are quite bad, one or two are excellent. I recommend the manga Mahoutsukai no Yome (The Ancient Magus' Bride). The series' storyline is currently progressing through a Magical College arc -- the College in question is a combination of a babysitting service, academic research institute, vocational training school, long-term care home for PTSD survivors and and oubliette for assorted existential dangers to the public/planet/universe. It's turning out better than I originally expected in that regard.

53:

As it happens, there are some Aztec-descended ritual practices involved (because Lovecraftian worship overlaps with other cults, and the Spanish conquistadores picked up some useful techniques in Mesoamerica and reimported them back to Spain, suitably adapted to their own purposes (quick: everybody say "cultural appropriation" right now), which goes some way to explaining the persistence and severity of the Spanish Inquisition in the Laundry universe) ...

54:

Yes, sort-of, though not quite. I agree about the shift in what was and is regarded as obscene, and the latter is what I was referring to by "other hang-ups", but death was also a great unmentionable in the 19th century in some contexts.

I was referring to the way death was mentioned (or not) TO children, especially the death OF children. It was extremely common to simply deny that it happened, especially w.r.t. stillbirths. And I don't see any of the children's works referred to as providing any kind of a serious explanation of death, so much as an attempt to sugar-coat it, almost deny its finality.

My recollection of the Water Babies from a VERY long time back is that it wasn't as bad as it is often painted. I can't say I am enthused to reread it, though.

55:

Charlie - yep, the people. Ycts remind me of what Lawrence Watt-Evens and Joshua Bilmas have told me about a query letter: emphasize the people, not the gosh-wow story.

At the end of the day, the story is about people in a situation, and how they deal with it. If you don't care about them, you'll find the story not good.

56:

I think I’m safe in saying most of us Americans are fairly unfamiliar with “The Water Babies” (have heard of it but not read), so just looked it up, and Ick. All the prerequisite Victorian racism & anti-semitism. No thanks.

57:

Take all the time you need. I know from caregiver stress.

On a personal note, I love that you know the term "competence porn". It's one of my favorite underrated storytelling concepts (along with "rescue fiction").

58:

"Children as gay, innocent and heartless" - well, young, they think they're immortal, the center of their world is their parents, and they don't know what they're doing.

Kids in middle/jr high school are as bad as humans get, normally....

59:

Oh. Great.

I'm still considering, the first book, but I've come to really dislike military sf. I haven't seen enough military fantasy, though I'm not sure that military sf isn't fantasy... or, as I've started referring to it, war porn.

60:

The March North uses the "high competence/bad odds" formula of the genre, but I am pretty sure it's not war porn. Where the dead get buried is an overt part of the text.

61:

Several things - incredible power can't be limitless nor not dangerous, by definition. I mean, you don't want to make a typo or error in wiring when you're say, working on a nuclear bomb, or a Mars lander.

For another, IMO the reason that magic users in this world are so attacked by established religions is that because it can have real serious results, they of course only want licenses magic users (i.e., priests) to use it. Can't let the hoi polloi use it, I mean, who knows what could happen (the peasants are revolting!).

Finally, when I used to D&D, back in the late seventies, I came up with a magic spell point system that the guys I played with liked: a magic user had spell points equivalent to their intelligence and constitution, while a cleric had the for constitution and wisdom (which made those two stats make sense). What this meant was, say, a high-level magic user could use Earthquake... um, and then, er, sleep! sleep! sleep!, no doing two or three high-level spells without falling unconscious or dying.

62:

Yeah, well, you can't forget that US prudes are more Victorian than the Victorians. I think they not only deny evolution, but really mean it when they say we're not "animals", and treat the fact that they were born because their parents got laid as "fake news".

63:

Nah. Many of the Victorians were as bad, but the UK has (mostly) learnt better.

W.r.t. Graydon's work, I don't regard the March North as war porn, either, but it does have enough in common with it that you might prefer to go straight to a Succession of Bad Days. I agree with you about the jingoistic and sadistic crap that dominates "military SF", and even most of the better stories have an indecent obsession with gore and slaughter (and grandiose technology for slaughter).

64:

I was at a sister school of the one William Golding taught at, and my reaction on reading the Lord of the Flies was "how naive".

65:

I've come to really dislike military sf.

I'm guessing what you hate is militarism sf -- that is, glorification of the ideology of might-makes-right, obedience, discipline, the whole nine yards that get romanticized and packaged and turned into fascism.

"The March North" is totally not that, although it examines those tropes (critically). It also does something pretty unique in high fantasy in my reading experience, which is to ask what an Enlightenment-type project might look like in a universe where some people are supremely powerful magicians, and other folks have no magic at all.

66:

That, and the attitude of whatever military the author's writing are ALWAYS perfect, there's never any collateral damage, much less friendly fire, to the point where they become Mary Sues (which is why I stopped reading Honor Harrington around book 5 or so, not to mention his Rob S. Pierre being really low-quality cardboard).

Having come of age during 'Nam, and paying attention to the news, and having been active in the Movement, I have very little patience for that crap... and I have friends who were in combat in 'Nam.

I'll probably look at the Commonweal, though I really need to finish the Compton-Crook nominee I'm reading.

67:

I dunno.

A long time ago, I came to understand the Russian proverb of "We will bury you". It was years later that I came to realize how much a curse on yourself that is - to outlive all your friends, all your enemies, anyone that has mattered to you?

Thank you, no. As my late mother-in-law said, when she was up to Chi-town after her daughter, my late wife, dropped dead, "a parent shouldn't have to outlive their children."

68:

I have just struggled through a particularly stupid and pointless chapter in the book I'm probably about to stop reading that I'm not even sure counts as war porn so much as authorial incompetence. I think the author is trying to emphasise that the protagonist is a moral and ethical person who would rather think his way through problems than just blow shit up. But instead we get a tedious inner monologue of the form "should I become a suicide bomber. I'm here, I have the bomb, I should do it. Or not?" ... about 1/3 of the way through book two of a five+ book series. But there's no alternate viewpoint characters established, and few sympathetic ones that we could switch to. So I'm sitting there going "if he does blow himself up, then where does the book go?" and trying not to eyeroll too badly.

Also "grav boots" do not Superman make.

69:

They'd matte dead family members into photos. (Sort of like Photoshop, but a century before computers. It's fairly obvious.)

70:

I'm guessing what you hate is militarism sf -- that is, glorification of the ideology of might-makes-right, obedience, discipline, the whole nine yards that get romanticized and packaged and turned into fascism.

This. Also the racism substitutes, the alien invaders always getting nicknames like Bugs or Snakes, etc. Never saw much difference between that and real life dehumanizing names used in the past, except that in MilSF they’re not actually human.

Meanwhile, saw final installment of Big Name Space Opera this afternoon, somewhat surprised to see Charlie’s pick for Angleton as an Imperial General. Whenever he was on screen was picturing him in that role, unlikely but would definitely be a good choice if a Laundry series ever actually goes into production.

71:

I actually think any fantasy or scifi book about “the military” vs just phew phew derringdo is extremely hard to write, which probably goes a long way toward explaining why most of them are so so bad. It’s an incredibly complex subject and too easy to either jump to the extreme of glorifying or villifying

About the only close to competent take I’ve seen is “the black company “

72:

Charlie Stross @ 21:Graydon doesn't sell his books via Amazon. Your best bet is to buy it on the Google Play store, then download the (DRM-free) epub, which will be readable on anything that can display epub files.

Graydon @ 38: Presuming Charlie's indulgence, here, but:

http://dubiousprospects.blogspot.com/2018/09/where-to-get-my-books.html

"Google Play" and "a bunch of Draft2Digital targets including Apple and Kobo". No Amazon.

So, is there any place a confirmed, curmudgeonly luddite like myself who still desires the feel of an actual book with paper pages I can turn can find a physical copy?

Or alternatively, is there any software that an end user like myself can afford that will allow me to take non-DRM Epub text and print it out in quires (I think that's the word) so I can stitch up a book for myself?

I just like reading books as books better than I like reading books on a screen.

73:

Charlie Stross @ 44: Happy thought: thanks to the Disney/Universal merger, apparently Ripley's Alien now fits the canonical definition of a Disney Princess? Or at least an evil queen.

It's not just the Xenomorphs.

https://www.cbr.com/movie-creatures-who-are-now-disney-princesses/

74:

I see your point; some of us find e-readers uncomfortable to both hold and look at. These are not good characteristics in a "machine for reading".

75:

Or alternatively, is there any software that an end user like myself can afford that will allow me to take non-DRM Epub text and print it out in quires (I think that's the word) so I can stitch up a book for myself?

In principle, EPUB -> HTML via Pandoc and then importing into Scribus would let you print a book. (I am eliding a lot of "learn scribus"; see for example https://onebookshelfpublisherservice.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360022742353-Preparing-Your-Book-For-Print-with-Scribus )

Pandoc and Scribus are both open source, so no upfront monetary costs for software.

This is something resembling work. The professional design to produce a pleasant book is more work still.

Dumping EPUB to ODT ("Open Document Text"), opening that in Libreoffice, and printing it won't produce a book but it's simpler and legible and (in my case) makes for a serious-paranoia paper backup copy.

76:

"The March North" etc ... want to read, but the Google Play bit seems odd - though having it on this machine to read might be useful. Wants me to log in & register & stuff - except I thought "G" would recongnise me anyway ... um. I might have to get a Tablet, just to read books, before much longer .... [ However, paws @ 74 may think otherwise ] .. ummm, errr .... Alternatively, I coiuld always tAry to find an actual bookshop that sells his stuff in London ... or the UK for that matter. - see also JBS @ 72

77:

Google Play is Google's store for Android phones/tablets. Sells software, games, music, movies, ebooks.

Yes, your regular google account should work as login credentials. But you'll also need to give it a payment method. My rec is either feed it with gift cards (you can buy them online from amazon, paypal, etc., then punch the code into the Play store somewhere), which is fine if you only use it for occasional one-offs, or, if expect to use it regularly, register a credit/debit card, then set up two-factor authentication. (Seriously. And not using SMS messages to a mobile phone number as the co-factor: mobile phone hijacking is a thing.)

78:

It's slightly annoying to me that I can't set google to require two factor authentication when I spend money, although given that my phone won't talk to it that may be vaguely useful. OTOH, it was ridiculously easy to set up my yubikeys with it and they seem to actually work. Then I lost a yubikey (along with my handbag, keys, cards etc, but luckily not my phone). Anyway, disabling the lost key and adding the replacement was also straightforward.

Because anyone who buys one hardware authenitcation token is just asking for it.

79:

The March North is a LOT better than that, though there still a lot of wholesale slaughter and weaponry for same. And its ethical approach is MUCH better than the sort of book you describe.

And a Succession of Bad Days is nothing like that at all.

80:

I looked at Google Play once... it was a few years ago, so this isn't up to date, but since the trend on the internet is for everything to get more and more wretchedly unusable over time and Google are leaders and drivers of the trend, chances are it's even worse now... I needed some publication the reading of which was on the critical path for some larger project, but even though it was free you couldn't just download a .zip of it from a plain link on the originator's site, you had to go to either Google Play or the Apple equivalent which is even worse and get fucked around from here to Sunday by all the stupid obstacles they have to make it more difficult to get the very stuff they only exist to make gettable in the first place.

Yes, log in, register, account, track, snoop, pry, and all that, no, just fuck off, I don't have to deal with any of that scrotal scurf buying real books from an actual bookshop so I don't see why I should try and deal with it online, especially when the thing I wanted didn't even need to be paid for anyway.

So, make a fake account, with much swearing, but then I still couldn't just download the thing, because the site tries to deny the existence of anything that isn't a phone and refuses to tell a browser how to issue the download request. So the next step was something stupid like having to download whatever crappy software for a phone the site was insisting you used, then decompile it and poke through several megabytes of bleeding java looking for where that did the request and working out how it derived the parameters for it.

At any rate I ended up giving up and waiting until a copy showed up on some hooky site, which fortunately didn't take more than a few days, because it was so much easier than circumventing all the deliberate stupid obstacles Google Play insisted on hassling me with. And ever since then, if anything I've wanted isn't officially available except on Google Play and its ilk then I've looked for a pirate version instead as my primary option. Or if (as here) that option is closed, I just do without.

Amazon's equivalent of Google Play is fractionally better, as in it's the same stupid bloody dance but the code is a little easier to analyse so I got the answer before I got to the point of giving up. And then there was another very similar dance to convert the downloaded material into a form I could actually read. But it still isn't remotely worth the hassle compared to looking for a pirate version instead.

I love JBS's idea of printing stuff out in the appropriate layout to be folded and cut into a book, but it's horribly impractical - for a start you need huge sheets of paper and a huge printer to cope with them. And I've found that when printing out technical manuals and stuff it's not worth trying anything fancier than plain single-sided A4. Even something as simple as printing on both sides of the paper invariably fails when the printer misfeeds part way through printing the second sides and buggers all the rest of it up.

So what this all adds up to is that I'm another one who wants to know where I can buy Graydon's work on paper.

81:

"I just like reading books as books better than I like reading books on a screen."

Yes, and also, if I care enough about something to be paying money for it then I want something I can pick up and hold, not something that requires a machine to even detect its existence.

82:

Yes and no. The real failing of most military SF is that it treats the aforementioned tropes as the point, rather than being a generally unpleasant necessity, and glorifies them. Most works that avoid that remain at least readable. I find depictions of bloodshed, cruelty and bigotry distasteful at best, and simply do not understand the way that many people fetishise weaponry (or cars, for that matter).

Derringdo is similar, though usually less disastefully bloodthirsty, but too many authors make their hero(ine)s so capable and lucky that they fall into the trap that whitroth mentioned in #66.

83:

Hey Charlie, Thanks for sharing your writing plans, I’m just going to set up a vague happy retirement for Bob & Mo, perhaps on the outskirts of Dunwich. However I have an issue which you may be able to help with. Can you point me towards a method of leaving a message for Freya with the key code to the bitcoin wallet I have set up in her name? It has 10BTC credit now in 2020 but as slow money, compound interest will ensure her safety if she can only access it! I have to acknowledge a major crush, inappropriate in a bio-cellular entity of a certain age! I suspect you are protecting your own feelings towards her by focusing on other narrative ‘verses but please believe I am not a rival for her affection, only one of the many who nurture her gentle resilience in our core identity. Regards Neil.

84:

Re: Military SF Peter Watts wrote "Crysis: Legion", a rather unusual military SF story, without any attempt to glorify the mess. It turns out the xenomorph-like murdering thingies are androids created and mass-produced by a local Alien AI in response to humans stumbling on hardware intended for making an continuous inventory of the useful biomolecules constantly created by a planet-wide biosphere (the only reason why aliens might be interested in Earth).

And the AI is not programmed for warfare, but has to improvise using whatever local information there is, resulting in hardware that actually is not that far ahead of human weapons. We are not fighting the aliens themselves, we are fighting their roombas! This little gem contained the answers to two big problems with all military SF ever written.

85:

"Also "grav boots" do not Superman make."

I blame the ancient Greeks. If their legends had depicted their divine messenger as dangling upside down from the sky by his ankles, flailing around all over the place as he struggles to right himself and crashing into things, we wouldn't still be having the problem now.

86:

"Children as gay, innocent and heartless" has always been true, and pretty much will continue to be. Children tick every box on the "sociopath" checklist, because they literally cannot conceive of other people being actual people like themselves. Partly this is physiology of brain development, but also there's a very large element of empathy being a learnt response, from parents and teachers saying "you wouldn't like it if they did it to you, would you?" And with it being a learnt response, many schemes for reducing reoffending (especially for crimes of impulse such as sex-related offenses) focus on establishing those responses.

OGH's final section of "Accelerando" is as perfect (and disturbing) an illustration of consequence-free childhood play as it gets.

87:

Oh, and BTW on "militarism SF", there still don't seem to be many authors taking the negative aspects of that as seriously as the original Warhammer 40,000 authors did, back in the mid-80s. Or 2000AD comics, for that matter.

88:

You sort of have to wonder about where the HH series went wrong. The Honor of the Queen is an immensely readable book, with a protagonist who has both real weaknesses and real strengths, to the point where I read that book so many times that I literally killed the binding and had to buy another copy... while the later books in the series are so bad you might as well skip the step of reading them and simply bring them home for use as firewood!

89:

Somewhere in there, Weber lost several close friends and was injured. The injury changed his writing process and habitual recreation. That's all public record.

I suspect what happened from a textual perspective is a combination of forced process change, a hit to the brain chemistry -- the effort difference between writing and your best writing is large! things happen in middle age that make it either less possible or impossible to do your prime-of-life best writing! -- and a loss of important feedback/first readers.

Plus somewhere in there, Baen-the-publisher stopped editing as they couldn't find it having any commercial return. This is not a function of Weber selling well; it was (and so far as I know, is) general.

Oh, and the cultural norm for stories changed. 9/11 changed American genre expectations in ways that I rarely see being consciously addressed.

Readers mostly make the story up; the text isn't going to be all of it ever and probably isn't most of it. What you get as an audience and what you have for context change what's effective writing. There's a lot of worldview affirmation reading going on.

(We can see this in the Laundry's progression very clearly in the series narrative's loss of axiomatic institutional competence, for example.)

I don't want to go all worst-timeline (I'm a child of the Cold War; this is not the worse timeline) but the idea that events don't feed back into art, or that the Forever War doesn't effect the audience or tropes of the MilSF genres won't stand up.

90:

They certainly crapped up before 9/11. The other issues you've raised are probably more important, particularly the editing questions for someone who obviously can't self-edit.

On the other hand, maybe we'll get some more Empire of Man books. I enjoyed those.

91:

I mean, now that HH is done.

Meanwhile, I'm definitely looking forward to Dead Lies Dreaming. I like the ambiguity of the title.

92:

(We can see this in the Laundry's progression very clearly in the series narrative's loss of axiomatic institutional competence, for example.)

Hell, yes.

In the late 90s, when I was writing "The Atrocity Archive", the Cold War had ended a decade earlier, taking away the Evil Empire™ prop of the USSR (which was a pretty piss-poor evil empire adversary in the first place, compared to the Third Reich, but served for a couple of generations of conservative thriller writers). Adding in Lovecraftian horrors gave me a decent adversary -- nobody finds tentacular people-eating monsters sympathetic. But over the next two decades we had a huge cultural shift: first 9/11 made terrorists non-quaint (and actually scary) for a few years, then we had the Iraq and Afghanistan messes to make imperialism bad again, extraordinary rendition and GWB to give the US new world order a really sinister visage, then the steady drip of leaks (Snowden, wikileaks, Manning, Reality Winner), then massive levels of corruption in public office showing up everywhere after 2008.

By 2015 it was glaringly obvious that the west was morally bankrupt, the east was no better, we had met the enemy, and he was us. Oh, and climate change is the new, inexorable ultimate enemy, and we created it. CASE NIGHTMARE GREEN is a great metaphor for anthropogenic climate change, and the New Management for corruption in government and the alt-right: but the institution I started storytelling about has outlived its use.

93:

@36 writes

Barrie describes children as "gay and innocent and heartless". Getting that right (or trying to) is what makes the book as dark as it is

"Accelerando" featured an unforgettable scene towards the end, of children tormenting a playmate by burning him to death, then bringing him back to life once more by ordering the synthetic environment ("House" was it's name) to produce another copy of the kid, by using a backup file from just prior to the incident. That way they could enjoy their game all over again and he went home afterwards none the wiser. I'd say Charlie pretty well nailed the topic, better even than Golding's "Lord of the Flies". Somewhere I read the idea of Victorians treating children like miniature adults, as opposed to modern usage of referring to our "inner child", like the joke about how every octagenarian contains a six year old wondering what the hell just happened. Hard to say which view is truer, anthropological research does indeed show prehistoric life to have been nasty, brutish and short,and most historical records are replete with atrocities, so that would support a view of no big difference between kids and grownups. But the ability of shocking tales to startle and repel the imagination implies maybe we've outgrown some of our worst inclinations, or modified the natural inborn viewpoint somewhat on reaching adulthood. Pinker makes persuasive arguments in his books that civilization really does tend to civilize people, in which case maybe the Victorians are overruled and we moderns win the argument. We just never shake that perplexed inner voice, is all. Could make a funny sci-fi story in the style of Ted Chiang's what- if -popular- misconceptions- were- true fantasies: fMRI scans prove Descartes was right, there actually is a little homonculus buried in your brain tissue somewhere, surgical removal of which provides instant relief from nagging self recriminations. Doctor Feelgood recommends!

94:

One thing to realize is that the "inner child" meme may well come out of the old alchemical traditions. I've been reading a book (Schipper's The Taoist Body) that has inner child terminology all over the place. In the form of Taoism he's talking about, the inner child is part of visualization exercises meant to lead toward spiritual immortality or some such. It's also a code that you've got to pay your dues to learn, and the exercises are presented as a very long poem that has to be decoded, rather than a technical manual

I'd also point out that the whole Taoist "become like a child so that stuff happens as if on its own" may be badly misunderstood (at least, I misunderstood it). In the West, we use a different phrase: practice until it's second nature and you don't have to think about it when you do it. For some reason, the Taoists thought that the result of massive amounts of practice was how one attained the natural state, not that children were born that way and lost their nature as they grew older. I'm not saying that the Taoist version of "massive cultivation=nature" is any better than the European Romantic tradition of "nature=the eternal past and man ruined it." It's more that, if Schipper is right, we can fool ourselves badly by carelessly translating between these two intellectual traditions.

In any case, Pratchett, I think, was having his usual and perceptive fun with this. He's right in a sense, but I think there's a good case that what he's saying and what the original authors were saying were substantially different.

95:

I find depictions of bloodshed, cruelty and bigotry distasteful at best, and simply do not understand the way that many people fetishise weaponry (or cars, for that matter).

While I've played a lot of computer games, and I still do, I find that much of the current games are too (personally) violent for me, nowadays. For example, if a game is a 'roleplaying game' it usually seems to mean that they player characters need to fight and kill a lot of things which probably wouldn't want to be killed. And of course most shooter games are kind of difficult when one doesn't want to shoot anything.

On the other hand, I can still play empire-type games, like Stellaris, which is a space empire building game with lots of options. Pushing the button or giving the order is not that bad...

With less interactive media, it's the same for me - all those things are usually a fast turn-off.

96:

I can see a lot of fun in a Laundry style reimagining of Joseph Conrad, particularly the more overtly/unconsciously Orientalist novels.

The Mandate turning out to be an Elder version of Lord Jim would be delightful though hard to pull off.

I have occasionally thought that Heart of Darkness would make a great template for a trip to Florida to see the MOUSE, or better yet the Duck.

Mikko at #95 - There is apparently a person who spends endless hours trying to complete various video games as a pacifist. Since few games are set up that way it is obviously quite difficult.

I now find very little interest in watching almost all movies that deal with seemingly invincible morally perfect supersoldiers who make the ultimate sacrifice for [reason] that saves everything. This accounts for about 97% of American 'action' move output at this point - particularly the military oriented wanking that happens in Hollywood. Equally unwatchable are the hitman/criminal/hardcase with heart of gold and apparent superpowers that slaughters everyone because [slightly justified reason].

97:

Yep, saw Episode IX Monday, and was very pleased. Turning the power back, rather than direct whack... and the very end was absolutely perfect.

I did have issues with a landspeeder doing maybe 30mph, shot, they go flying, and then get up and walk away; also with it being awfully fast between star systems.

98:

I wound up going to Angus Robertson, which wound up sending me to Kobo. Bought it on Kobo (after resetting my password - I'd had a Kobo for a few years, until they completely and totally fucked up the interface to unusability). Then you have to log into your Kobo account (wasn't I already there when I bought it?), and sync and other options and ... menu to get to "download".

99:

Calibre. There's releases for all o/s (I'm on CentOS Linux, not Ubuntu). Converts to whatever.

100:

He was a God, not some stupid clueless, unbalanced human. Besides, the Greeks didn't have any idea about the gyro stabilizers in the shoes.

101:

Calibre is the tool for converting between ebook formats, no question.

For laying out a book for printing, it's not what I'd use, or what I'd expect could be used with success.

102:

You'll get vastly better fiction about non-normative sexuality when those of us with non-normative sexuality aren't hiding for our lives, and since I'm one of the people rising authoritarian movements would generally like to suppress, I also think it would be vastly better to have my life and no good queer fiction than the reverse.

In any case, there already is good queer fiction pushing boundaries being published. Making it harder to talk openly about queerness will only make it harder to publish good queer fiction.

103:

Victorians treating children as little adults.... Well, for one thing, they will grow up, and they were showing them what adults should do.

Now, what they showed the kids, and what, say, I or Ellen showed our kids, is vastly different.

On the other hand, vastly too many people in the last century or so treat children as stupid, rather than ignorant. Tolkien complains about this in his essay, "On Fairy Stories", and decries stories, etc, where they talk down to kids.

Btw, I'm reminded of a short story from a long time ago, where we invent a machine that reproduces everything perfectly, including on stored data. As our viewpoint character makes his way along, he runs across a couple that does all sorts of stuff, sex, food, everything... and at the end of the day, throws themselves back into the machine, and are reproduced, with no memory of the previous day, and so are never bored by what they do.

There are adults who'd do that.

104:

Keithmasterson every octagenarian contains a six year old wondering what the hell just happened. ME! Well - in my case a 16-26 year old wondering - - - WHAT THE BLOODY FUCK? ( I'm 74 in 10 days time, yeah ) We just never shake that perplexed inner voice ... as in: "Some complete bastards stole my future & I want it back ... " - yes?

105:

Absolutely agreed.

There's a lot to be said for living in any society where neither comedy nor workarounds like science fiction or fantasy are necessary to allow people to talk about anything they think is important in their lives, whether it's their gender identity, sexual preferences, climate change, evolution, religious belief or lack thereof. The only good thing (for a very unsatisfactory value of good) is that when such freedom is not possible, SFF is available as a workaround, albeit one that's highly unsatisfactory one.

106:

This is NOT the Real 21st Century. I want the Real one back NOW, thankyouveddymuch.

And which way to the ticket counter for the Pan Am shuttle to the Wheel...?

107:

There are plenty of worse 21st centuries out there. The one in which Able Archer '83 turned hot and about 30,000 H-bombs went off in October-November 1983, for starters. Or the one in which Hitler listened to his generals and those of us who were even born (hint: not me) would be living under the iron jackboot of the Third Reich or its client and successor states. Or the one in which the 1918 Spanish 'flu killed 30-50% of Earth's population rather than 3-5% (hint: the black death went the distance), thereby triggering a mini-ice age similar to the late 16th century one (due to a stark drop-off in carbon emissions) followed by a re-run of the first half of the 17th century (hint: which featured wars and famines with a per capita adjusted death toll that made the 20th century look merciful), arriving around the same time as nukes.

This really isn't the best, but it's a very long way from being the worst.

108:

And which way to the ticket counter for the Pan Am shuttle to the Wheel...?

Agreed wholeheartedly. And can we have the version of that reality without the scary alien monoliths?

109:

“ While I've played a lot of computer games, and I still do, I find that much of the current games are too (personally) violent for me, nowadays. For example, if a game is a 'roleplaying game' it usually seems to mean that they player characters need to fight and kill a lot of things which probably wouldn't want to be killed.”

Disco Elysium is for you

110:

In any case, there already is good queer fiction pushing boundaries being published.

Gideon the Ninth!

111:

Heh, heh, heh.

I've spent part of today working on my history of the next 11,000 years. (It might make things easier for me if I had decided on 9,000, or maybe 8,000, but that's what I started with...).

Wait till we meet the real thing, the Advanced Intelligences. (Admittedly, according to me, we don't actually get in serious contact with them for another, um, 4300 years, so just chill out, take a toke, sit back and wait.)

112:

...with it being awfully fast between star systems.

Yeah, I liked it, thought it was a fairly satisfying end. Though there were a few cutesy moments, and the hyperspace travel was too instant—all that jumping and they didn’t end up in the middle of a star, but always in the middle of something? But I don’t watch the series for plausibility.

113:

Disco Elysium is for you

Yeah, you're not the first person to say that! Five hours (real-time) played already, and I did find a plastic bag.

It was sold to me as "kind of an rpg" but it feels to me more like the classic Sierra and Lucasfilm adventure games.

To the topic of this blog entry, thanks for reminding me, I did pre-order the book after reading this one.

114:

So - now we know how DT expects to "win" this year's election ... A Short Victorious War Oh shit.

JPR & whitroth You are oviously taking about a recent/the latest "Star Wars" flim ... but I gave up some years back - number 4 or 5 in the order in which they were made ... which one are we talking about, since the numbering is ... peculiar.

115:

I can see a lot of fun in a Laundry style reimagining of Joseph Conrad ... I have occasionally thought that Heart of Darkness would make a great template for a trip to Florida to see the MOUSE...

You may not know it but you're thinking of At The Mountains of Cuteness. It's a delightful tentacle-in-cheek spoof of a another familiar style of story, too.

Bob, after his Escape from Puroland, would not enjoy reading it as much as you will.

116:

And can we have the version of that reality without the scary alien monoliths?

No. And rather than one big monolith safely buried under Tycho, there are billions of tiny black slabs, each containing an alien intellect vast, cool, and unsympathetic. There may be one in your pants pocket right now.

117:

Gideon the Ninth!

The book is a bit like a gift box of upscale candies that is infested with angry kraits. Candy yum, until one is bitten on the eyeball. If you’ve played Warhammer 40K and thought ​“this is way spikey and nihilistic, but it doesn’t have anywhere near enough horny, foul-mouthed lesbians,” I have the book for you. - James Nicoll

118:

I would love to add to this, but I’m happy just to point to it as something positive to remember.

It gets hard considering some of the better 20th and 21st centuries we might have had, of course. But you’re totally right that there are an infinite number of counterfactuals of any possible variant, therefore positive and negative are really quite troublesome and not very useful from a classificatory perspective.

119:

Meanwhile in the other world: Dominic Cummings is hiring super-talented weirdos and cites Gibson. See also Peter Woit’s comment on career opportunities in Not Even Wrong.

120:

On today's Trump-ordered murder

Per this report, General Suleimani was the leader of the actual military side of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard, and probably the second most powerful man in the Iranian system (which is opaque and multi-centric). The Supreme Leader has already promised retaliation, which isn't inexplicable; I think Trump's going to get a nasty shock, though.

I am boggled at Trump's stupidity, which is stupid on stilts even by Trump's standards. Has he totally not got a clue? Osama bin Laden was an ageing cult leader under house arrest in a kinda-friendly country where he'd out-stayed his welcome (an embarrassment to Pakistan, like Julian Assange in London); General Suleimani was the commander-in-chief of the main military service of the fricking Persian Empire, a nation with a nuclear fuel program and an industrial base. And Trump just ordered the equivalent of the USA assassinating Heinrich Himmler in 1940.

Assassins are cheap, and even a heavily defended target like the POTUS and entourage are vulnerable if you throw enough resources at them and have access to suicide attackers. More to the point, Trump has a huge threat surface: Mar-a-lago, his sons and daughter, spring to mind. I'd be totally unsurprised if one or more of Don Jr., Eric, Ivanka, or Jared Kushner are targeted: slightly more surprised if Mike Pence is targeted: I'm not sure they'll go after the Tangerine Shitgibbon himself -- blatantly assassinating a head of state is pretty much guaranteed to get you an all-out war -- but it's going to hurt.

For a bigger threat surface, just imagine what happens when car bombs begin exploding in the lobby of every Trump-branded building worldwide.

121:

I am boggled at Trump's stupidity, which is stupid on stilts even by Trump's standards. Has he totally not got a clue?

That's a rhetorical question, yes? I think it's well established that not only does he not have a clue but that he won't listen to anyone who does have a clue.

On the subject of clues, I've got no special insight into the inner workings of the Iranian government. (But I know this, so I'm ahead of Donald.) What may be a politically acceptable response for their domestic public opinion I can't say. One option that he's handed them is logically and legally possible: to ignore the political side entirely and charge Donald J. Trump, the admitted ringleader of an assassination plot, with premeditated murder[1].

Obviously the US would not extradite him. Neither would Russia. That's not the point. The fantasy for Trump and his supporters is that he's a big angry Alpha Male who gets to dump on enemies and little people with impunity; this does not mesh well with being a criminal on the run from the police.

Being a war president would be great fun for him and could only help his popularity. Being a wanted criminal would get up his nose for the rest of his life.

[1] I don't know the formal name for conspiracy to murder in the Iranian legal system but I'm sure it's illegal and that any Iranian prosecutor knows how to produce the correct paperwork.

122:

Eric Dominnic Cummings is this cycles Stephen Gardiner ( Bish of Winchester (?) under Bloody Mary ) Oversaw numerous Da'esh style executions ... pushed the "return" of the "pure" state that had (not) previously existed ....

Charlie Time for Iran to copy Tito, actually: Stop sending people to kill me. We've already captured five of them, one of them with a bomb and another with a rifle... If you don't stop sending killers, I'll send one to MoscowWashington, and I won't have to send a second.' As long as THIS TIME, we refuse to be dragged in.

123:

If Iran assassinates a member of Trump's immediate family, it'll be the end of democracy in the USA. (Yeah, yeah, I know -- the USA has never been a democracy.)

124:

If Iran assassinates a member of Trump's immediate family...

For more fun, what if they arrest one of Trump's immediate family?

I don't know what, for example, Ivanka might have done to break Iranian law - but a motivated prosecutor can often find something. American (and "American") right wing media would be screamingly furious that someone would dare touch the Leader's family; all the real news services could get months of stories reporting on the ongoing trial, with lots of pictures of a Trump behind bars, a Trump in handcuffs, a Trump in a tiny cement cell...

125:

Does anyone else think Qassem Soleimani looked like Sean Connery?

I'm thinking it has to have chapped Trump's ass that this guy had such a made-for-TV-authority look. It sounds stupid (well, it IS stupid), but this is exactly the kind of thing that occupies what passes for his mind.

126:

I was thinking George Clooney myself.

As for targets, they could easily keep it strictly business. According to Google the US Army has 231 generals, and the majority will be on home soil. I don't doubt the Russians have a list of all their home addresses, nor that it's beyond Iran's abilities to get 231 two-man teams into the US. (You'd need to hit them all simultaneously, of course.)

127:

It occurs to me that if the Iranians don't want to escalate, they'd just play tit-for-tat and kill a high-ranking member of the US occupying forces in Iraq. "We did to you exactly what you did to us. Now we're even," could be their response.

Whether that would work or not (spoiler: it wouldn't), they'd have played the MAD game.

Is it any wonder that the Iranians are trying to get nukes? With those, even a nutter like Trump might hesitate. Or, more importantly, the people actually tasked with carrying out his orders might delay and wait for the Dear Leader to forget that he'd given the orders.

128:

There is no RealPolitik without a sense of consequences.

Trump's sense of consequences are purely around the risk of prison; he's had at least one medical event recently, and is cognitively impaired. He's never in his life been any good at relating events to anything except himself.

The folks around him are constrained to try to keep him out of prison when his choices of personnel have not been the best and when the god-king is at risk of drooling on his shoes. It's -- for everyone else -- the 2nd Best Swordsman proverb, writ very large; the best swordsman isn't worried about the second best, they're worried about the worst, because they have no idea what the idiot is going to do. That's diplomacy involving the US right now, for everyone. Ally? Enemy? Rational self-interest? none apply.

Iran can't ignore it -- their internal web of loyalties to power can't do it -- but they don't have to be stupidly violent. I would be quite surprised if it's bomb-Trump-hotels. They've done an effective job so far strategically, and their core strategic problem is the chunk of the US right who absolutely will not tolerate their existence for the vast crime of interfering with US extraction industry profits in the form of overthrowing the Shah. Nothing they can do will ever cause that US faction to accept the existence of the Islamic Republic; they're in, and know they are in, a death grapple with that faction. Blowing up hotels doesn't help them with that.

What they do depends on whether or not they think they can survive. (I would guess that they do, but I have no idea what their intelligence picture is showing them.)

From the US side, the Right Thing to do is to send Trump to the Hague; the US public wouldn't stand for it, but it's the correct thing to do.

If I was part of the Iranian state aparat and I had anything at all that I thought would make Trump's removal from office more likely, I would want to find an indirect way to release it. It's getting so pretty much everybody who isn't a US red state senator wants that, because this isn't good for business.

129:

Putin has a problem, now ... Trump was/ishis patsy, who ohas just fucked up ... Putin does not want a mjor war, he wants lots of little distractions, so that he can nibble bits off & sow dissention. ( See also Turkey/Libya ) But a US/Iran major confrontation does not benefit him - the Iraninas won't rust that nice Mr P any more than they do DT. Graydon has the right sow by the ear ... Dump as much incriminating, verifyable info on DT to the Dems & anyone else who will use it ...a.s.a.p. - before he starts a "Short Victorious War"

130:

Passing that info to the Democrats would not be a winning move, because a large portion of the US would instinctively call a Democrat a liar even if they said the sky was blue and the sun rose in the east. Dumping the incriminating files or videos on Reddit and using their Facebook bots to publicise it would be a more sound move. Assuming those files or videos exist, naturally.

131:

It's generally agreed that such files and videos exist. The Russians are well known for investing in such things years or decades in advance and Donald has spent time in Moscow. But if they have the famous "pee tape," what of it? Who'd care? We've all heard the "Grab 'em by the pussy" tape and his fans were fine with it.

Video of him taking instructions and conspiring with Putin might do it. Or might not.

If I were Putin I'd have stand-ins anyway, as decoys and for boring public appearances; surely they can find a decent Trump impersonator too. That would let Russia produce propaganda evidence for whatever seemed convenient even while both governments insisted with straight faces that the videos were "fake news." When people are going to call everything a lie anyway there's no reason not to lie about the lies...

132:

For a source most of us probably don't read much, the Times of Israel headline is France, Russia, and China condemn slaying of Soleimani as a destabilizing act.

133:

SS And even effing Dominic Raab of the tories, here is going: "Don't let's be hasty!"

Of course, Saudi wants a war, to trash Iran, so they can be cock of the walk ... & that, if anything is the more worrying aspect, particularly as there is an almost 1400-year-old piece of religious venomous spite involved

134:

It wouldn't matter to him, of course. But his supporters have managed to write off the "grab'em by the pussy" tape as banter, and his use of prostitutes as unproven since the only evidence is the women's testimony. With more solid evidence I would expect things to go sideways fast, because his core supporters (and VP) are fundamentalist Christians. It may not get him impeached, because the Senate aren't likely to change horses that fast. But almost certainly it would lose him the upcoming election.

135:

Graydon @ 75:

"Or alternatively, is there any software that an end user like myself can afford that will allow me to take non-DRM Epub text and print it out in quires (I think that's the word) so I can stitch up a book for myself?"

In principle, EPUB -> HTML via Pandoc and then importing into Scribus would let you print a book. (I am eliding a lot of "learn scribus"; see for example https://onebookshelfpublisherservice.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360022742353-Preparing-Your-Book-For-Print-with-Scribus )

Pandoc and Scribus are both open source, so no upfront monetary costs for software.

This is something resembling work. The professional design to produce a pleasant book is more work still.

Dumping EPUB to ODT ("Open Document Text"), opening that in Libreoffice, and printing it won't produce a book but it's simpler and legible and (in my case) makes for a serious-paranoia paper backup copy.

Looks like Scribus is a 32 bit Mac only application, which might be a bit of a problem going forward even before the apparently steep learning curve.

The "EPUB to ODT" might work if it's not a LONG book. I have a duplexing laser printer, but that only means 100 pages takes 50 sheets of paper and there's still the problem with binding it into a book I can comfortably hold in my lap and read.

136:

My guess is very little terrorism which could justify an escalation. The leadership of Iran understands that Trump and the GOP would welcome a war as a distraction and re-election campaign.

However, forcing the US out of Iraq should be quite doable; shut off land routes and then squeeze bases.

137:

For a large number of reasons, I cannot follow your Himmler-analogy.

A better analogy would be the assassination of a above-government-level official strutting around in a disputed territory.

Something like an Austro-Hungarian Archduke parading through Sarajevo in the years before world war one for instance...

139:

"A better analogy would be the assassination of a above-government-level official strutting around in a disputed territory."

More like a high government official of country A who is visiting country B, an ally, conducted by country C.

140:

The numbering - Lucas never thought he could make all nine movies that he had in his head in the early 70's. What he went for was a takeoff on the old Republic serials, and the first one, AKA Episode IV, could have been the end of one serial.

If you saw Episode I, I can understand why you stopped - it was utter crap (now, with Pod Racer, the next new ride at Universal Studio Park, Florida!). Episode II was better, but Episode III was the one that I, personally, had been waiting for.

Of these last three, Episode VII was, ok, though there was oh, come on, that weapon, and... There's also a lack of comprehension as to how big a galaxy is. The last one, Episode VIII, wasn't bad. This current one, as I said, I really liked.

There was a lot of set up that was done mostly ok. Interestingly, though, there's no credit for the two minutes of Harrison Ford.

141:

That's silly. The minds measureless to man are probably lounging on the bed, napping. I mean, why are we here, if it wasn't that the cats domesticated us, so that they could live in a manner in which they intended to become accustomed to?

142:

With regard to Trump's killing of a high-ranking Iranian it's worth noting a couple things about the U.S. situation right now. The first is that the unredacted White House emails about Ukraine came out yesterday. The second is that someone claims to have found evidence that a Russian bank is backing Deutsche Bank's loans to Trump. So he's not just committing murder, he's wagging the dog.

The worst thing the Iranians could do to Trump is... nothing at all.

143:

It's worth remembering that, so far as the DoD is concerned, the US may well not have the resources, equipment, or people to invade Iran. If I had to guess, I'd say that's why we haven't gone to war with Iran yet.

Now, if this is correct, this is all bloody posturing, the US will play tit for tat with Iran, and the Iranians will do something involving killing lots of troops in Iraq or Afghanistan in a messy way to avenge their loss.

In some sick ways, quagmiring the US in two unwinnable wars is a good strategy for them, if they can keep the costs down for themselves.

Trouble is, as noted, that Trump isn't good at this kind of game, and he's got a pretty bad case of Dunning-Krueger coupled with a bad case of unpardonable impeachment, coupled with a re-election campaign, coupled with the inevitable mental and physical decay that the US Presidency brings out in everyone who holds that office, coupled with his own questionable state of health.

The question for the Iranians is, if they want to not look weak and to bleed the US, what's the best strategy? It might be to keep the US involved in Iraq and Afghanistan, hemorrhaging people, supplies, and readiness, and quite possibly to re-elect Trump if Ol' Orange-pussy demonstrates yet again that his only strategy is Bluster, BS and Settle, rather than escalate.

On the other hand, most of the democrats don't particularly want to play that game, they want to clean up the mess at home. So the possibilities for messing with elections are almost endless here.

And so it goes.

144:

Things I did not see coming: Famous American racist and all-around horrible person David Duke tweeted against Trump this morning, saying in part "Trump JUST SCREWED HIMSELF & US!"

Angry racists are Trump's core demographic; if he looses them he's down to Russian oligarchs and his immediate family.

Also, this shows that my time horizon for predicting things in politics is under twelve hours.

145:

For a large number of reasons, I cannot follow your Himmler-analogy.

Himmler turned the SS into a state-within-a-state within the Third Reich. It had duplicates of all the major agencies: a secret police force, its own army (up to and including Panzer divisions), factories and concentration camps. Everything. The Iranian Revolutionary Guard similarly has a whole shitload of duplicate infrastructure, logistics, and production facilities, as well as an army.

Hence the analogy I was trying for.

146:

Heteromeles The Iranians SEEM to play almost exact tit-for-tat ... "See we can do it TO YOU TOO!" As in downing PanAm over Lockerbie in retalition for the USS Vincennes screw-up ... you shot ONE airliner down, we shot ONE airliner down .... So, whom do they knock off? Or is it just "Pick one of equivalent rank" ( = 3-star General/Vice-Admiral etc. )

147:

The question for the Iranians is, if they want to not look weak and to bleed the US, what's the best strategy?

I agree with 'not look weak' but their enemy is not really the US. Their enemy is Donald Trump and a few of his cronies.

What can they do to make life difficult for Donald? Many other people also have this hobby; they might find allies.

148:

the US may well not have the resources, equipment, or people to invade Iran.

The US can Fuck Shit Up in Iran -- that's what bombers and cruise missiles are for -- but actually invading the Persian Empire would not be sensible, or even possible: it's geographically bigger and more populous than Mexico, and while they could certainly put a couple of mechanized brigades in harm's way, the entire US armed forces are too small (by an order of magnitude) to occupy Iran. Look how badly they managed with Iraq, which had a third the population, concentrated in a much smaller area, and some of them friendly (notably the Kurds).

Meanwhile, Iran has a bunch of proxies (read: shi'ite allies) throughout the Middle East, notably in Yemen, Lebanon, and Iraq. Plus a global diaspora, some of whom may be cover for sleeper cells (as well as dissidents opposed to the regime). "Terrorism" becomes qualitatively something entirely different when the pockets backing it come from a state with a fractional-trillion dollar annual revenue stream and an industrial base.

149:

Pigeon @ 80: I love JBS's idea of printing stuff out in the appropriate layout to be folded and cut into a book, but it's horribly impractical - for a start you need huge sheets of paper and a huge printer to cope with them. And I've found that when printing out technical manuals and stuff it's not worth trying anything fancier than plain single-sided A4. Even something as simple as printing on both sides of the paper invariably fails when the printer misfeeds part way through printing the second sides and buggers all the rest of it up.

The duplex printing is not that bad because I have a printer that prints one side of the sheet and then prints the other, so if there's a misfeed it only affects that one sheet (even if that sheet does have 8 different pages laid out on it, it's still only a single sheet of paper and doesn't affect any of the other sheets).

I earned a book-binding merit badge when I was a Boy Scout, so I kind of remember how to do the part about cutting & folding & stitching & gluing it up to make the physical part of the book.

It's the part where you print pages in proper sequence across multiple sheets of paper that's got me buffaloed. To lay the text out so it would flow properly when cut and stitched I'd end up reading it on the screen a half dozen times for every page I laid out, which is kind of pointless because the whole purpose of the exercise is because I want to read it as a book because I don't like reading it on the screen.

So what this all adds up to is that I'm another one who wants to know where I can buy Graydon's work on paper.

I actually managed to track down a printed copy of Equoid from some Canadian bookstore.

Didn't there used to be a segment of the "Vanity Press" that specialized in small batches of books printed at a reasonable price? I think that would be even more possible in the age of electronic manuscripts. I know there's still Blurb and Lulu that do that for photo books, but what about small batch BOOK books with words on every page?

Which still leaves the problem of getting permission and proving to the printer that I have that permission to print my own copy of someone else's copyrighted work.

150:

Bugger - forgot to add ... [ And Charlie has posted whilst I was typing this ... ] the US may well not have the resources, equipment, or people to invade Iran. If I had to guess, I'd say that's why we haven't gone to war with Iran yet. BUT They do have the resouces to trash the whole country & then walk away .... And DT is quite capable of ordering that ... would the US Armed forces then obey, or ask Congress for "guidance"? What do our US correspondents think that US law says on that conundrum?

And provided that Iraninan "terrorism" strikes US_ONLY targets & leaves everubody else alone ... which might be difficult. OTOH ... Dt is getting desperate enough to do "anything" to avoid impeachment - yes/no? SO starting WWII is preferable from his p.o.v. to going to jail? NOT a pleasnt musing

151:

t's the part where you print pages in proper sequence across multiple sheets of paper that's got me buffaloed.

The key concept you're missing is Imposition. (One of the reason publishers pay typesetting bureaux with expensive licenses for Quark Publishing System or Adobe InDesign is because those DTP packages handle the imposition side of layout transparently and with all sorts of configurable options, e.g. ability to add tiny margin offsets to compensate for the thickness of the pages before/after the current one within the current signature once it's stitched).

152:

Other then Iran I don’t think anyone is crying a lotta tears over Soleimani. That guy has earned his dirt nap many times over

And driving around the outskirts of Baghdad fomenting attacks on American embassies is basically asking for it

Honestly this is not incredibly stupid from the perspective of Trumps handlers, given that they wouldn’t mind a war. Iran is now in a tough spot because they don’t want a war. Now Iran has to figure out a response that doesn’t give the Americans their war and still satisfies their populations desire for vengeance, especially given their population seems to be teetering in the edge of revolt in general.

My guess is nothing dramatic will happen

If the Iranians do hand the US the war card by overplaying their hand, I suspect rather then invasion the US military will do their best to tip the country over into anarchy by blowing up infrastructure and leadership. I don’t know if that will work but it’ll not be much fun for the Iranians and will also be the end if their nuclear program

153:

You are contradicting yourself here. USA may not be able (willing, to be correct - of course they are technically able) to occupy Iran completely, but it is 100% able to destroy it as a state, and keep it this way. And a bunch of Afghanistanesque territories won't be able to sustain a global terrorism campaign against the USA.

154:

Mikko Parviainen @ 95: I find depictions of bloodshed, cruelty and bigotry distasteful at best, and simply do not understand the way that many people fetishise weaponry (or cars, for that matter).

While I've played a lot of computer games, and I still do, I find that much of the current games are too (personally) violent for me, nowadays. For example, if a game is a 'roleplaying game' it usually seems to mean that they player characters need to fight and kill a lot of things which probably wouldn't want to be killed. And of course most shooter games are kind of difficult when one doesn't want to shoot anything.

On the other hand, I can still play empire-type games, like Stellaris, which is a space empire building game with lots of options. Pushing the button or giving the order is not that bad...

With less interactive media, it's the same for me - all those things are usually a fast turn-off.

I OTOH find first person shooters quite relaxing and a perfect way to sublimate my anger and aggression. And I don't even have to imagine the bad guys I'm killing in the games are the bad guys who piss me off in real life.

My favorite game is an open world (sandbox) project with lots of users creating content. I'm currently playing a "survival" variant that has zombies, renegades & survivors. I don't shoot zombies because it's a waste of ammunition. I do run over them with vehicles, because they're kind of pathetic. They line up and just stand there waiting to be run over like they want you to end their misery.

And you can tell the survivors from the renegades because renegades will attack you and survivors won't. I try not to shoot at survivors and if I encounter survivors battling renegades I will try to shoot the renegades and not the survivors.

The game graphics do realistically portray the effects of weapons and some of it can be kind of gory. But I don't think it's a good idea for games or movies try to sanitize the effect. I'd rather they portray it in all its ugliness. Shooting another person should be ugly. But they don't have to glorify it.

I'm a gun enthusiast who doesn't own a gun. I don't feel like I need to own one & I hope I never get to the point where I DO feel like I need one. There's a couple of gun stores in town that have indoor ranges where you can rent a gun and fire on their range and I occasionally think about going down to one of them to shoot.

155:

Greg Tingey @ 104: Keithmasterson

every octagenarian contains a six year old wondering what the hell just happened.

ME!
Well - in my case a 16-26 year old wondering - - - WHAT THE BLOODY FUCK? ( I'm 74 in 10 days time, yeah )
We just never shake that perplexed inner voice ... as in: "Some complete bastards stole my future & I want it back ... " - yes?

I look in the mirror and wonder where the handsome youth who used to be there went off to and who the fuck is that beat up old man standing there now? Makes me want to cry sometimes. I do really miss that handsome youth and wonder why he had to go away?

156:

Charlie Stross @ 120: On today's Trump-ordered murder

The only thing that mystifies me is that anyone can still underestimate the depths of Trumpolini's stupidity and depravity. This shit can only get worse and it's going to.

157:

I will absolutely guarantee that the thought process on this assassination was

"Who ordered the storming of the embassy? Kill them"

treating Soleimani like the head of a terrorist cell rather than a leader of state.

Pure ideological blinders that the NatSec folks got too used to striking heads of organizations rather than considering the role as a national leader.

It is beyond fucking insane.

Anyways, it is worth remembering that "world's leading exporter of terror" can be accurately reworded as "world's leading expert in unconventional warfare".

158:

I got a copy of Equiod from $LargeRiverUK no problem.

159:

JReynolds @ 127: Is it any wonder that the Iranians are trying to get nukes? With those, even a nutter like Trump might hesitate. Or, more importantly, the people actually tasked with carrying out his orders might delay and wait for the Dear Leader to forget that he'd given the orders.

Nope. You're still underestimating the depths of Trump's stupidity and depravity.

160:

Scott Sanford @ 131: It's generally agreed that such files and videos exist. The Russians are well known for investing in such things years or decades in advance and Donald has spent time in Moscow. But if they have the famous "pee tape," what of it? Who'd care? We've all heard the "Grab 'em by the pussy" tape and his fans were fine with it.

Video of him taking instructions and conspiring with Putin might do it. Or might not.

If I were Putin I'd have stand-ins anyway, as decoys and for boring public appearances; surely they can find a decent Trump impersonator too. That would let Russia produce propaganda evidence for whatever seemed convenient even while both governments insisted with straight faces that the videos were "fake news." When people are going to call everything a lie anyway there's no reason not to lie about the lies...

How "Deep Fakes" work ... You Won’t Believe What Obama Says In This Video!

161:

It's the part where you print pages in proper sequence across multiple sheets of paper that's got me buffaloed.

You need software that can handle imposition. PageMaker used to, I think Adobe InDesign does. If Affinity Publisher can do it I haven't figured out how. I have no idea of there's a free package that will do so. I found a Macc app that would impose a PDF file, but it was $140 so I decided to do the job by hand (it was a one-off project).

162:

You need software that can handle imposition.

And remember that the imposition you want is in some respects specific to the paper and printing mechanism you're going to use. This is generally why it's really best to contract book-making. It's a highly specialized trade.

163:

It’s too late now but the really smart thing Iran could have done to really, really, tweak the Orange Idiot would be to make it seem like nothing had happened. Find a good stunt double of the general. Tart up some suitable location details. Show nothing damaged. Claim DeepFake provided any evidence being claimed by El Cheeto.

164:

From Twitter:

"He was a murderous war criminal. What did you expect Trump to do?"

I dunno. Pardon him and invite him to a rally?

165:

That's a plot point in one of the Stainless steel rat novels - aliens assassinate the top leadership - efficiency goes up.

166:

So, it is now the position of the executive branch of the US government that this was a preemptive political assassination to prevent war. If they are to be believed, sort of like using a time machine to go back and kill baby Hitler, except without the time machine and or any clear picture of possible futures and their distributions. I will assume that they are lying though, until believable evidence is presented. Live updates: Trump says Iranian military leader was killed by drone strike ‘to stop a war,’ warns Iran not to retaliate (Louisa Loveluck, Adam Taylor, Jan. 3, 2020) Link is Washington Post (private browsing window if needed), and has the video of DJT reading the teleprompter. (The script sounds like it was written or massaged by Stephen Miller, not sure though.) The bit in question is at 2:18: roughly, "We took action last night to stop a war. We did not take action to start a war."

167:

They do have the resouces to trash the whole country & then walk away .... And DT is quite capable of ordering that ... would the US Armed forces then obey

You'd think they'd politely point out that this is a war crime and refuse. However, they seem to have had no issues murdering someone (and any poor sod standing nearby) on the orders of the deranged idiot. So it seems they'd literally do anything.

168:

“Bob, after his Escape from Puroland, would not enjoy reading it as much as you will.” Has that been published yet an I missed it?

169:

Greg Tingey @ 133: Of course, Saudi wants a war, to trash Iran, so they can be cock of the walk ... & that, if anything is the more worrying aspect, particularly as there is an almost 1400-year-old piece of religious venomous spite involved

Fuck 'em! IF they want a war with Iran, the U.S. doesn't need to start one for them. Let them use their own soldiers for that war.

I do kind of wonder what Iran's top Revolutionary Guard General was doing in Baghdad just three days after Iranian backed militias tried to storm the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad. State and DoD are both citing an imminent threat against American Diplomats as a reason for the strike. What role did Suleimani play in the 1979 Iran Hostage Crisis? Was Suleimani coming in to give Kataib Hezbollah instructions on how to do the job right next time?

There IS a fraught 40 year history between the U.S. and Iran over the security of U.S. Embassies & American Diplomats, not just in Iran, but in Lebanon & Syria, plus Egypt and African states where it supports "revolutionary" militias in a proxy war against Sunni Islam.

170:

Scott Sanford @ 147:

The question for the Iranians is, if they want to not look weak and to bleed the US, what's the best strategy?

I agree with 'not look weak' but their enemy is not really the US. Their enemy is Donald Trump and a few of his cronies.

Do you think anyone in Iran really makes that distinction or even cares about it if the do?

171:

Re: ' ... have had no issues murdering someone (and any poor sod standing nearby) on the orders of the deranged idiot.'

Didn't Reagan unseat Noriega by having him charged with drug smuggling, money laundering, etc.? Not your typical move for unseating the de facto head of state - seems most other world leaders allow other heads of state a lot of latitude when it comes to crime. (Noriega served time in the US and in France.)

DT's MO is to rely on financial threats/bullying. But, despite the economic sanctions by the US and EU which did hurt Iran's economy, Iran's GDP is expected to grow this year thanks to its current trade partners: China, Turkey, South Korea, UAE - and possibly Saudi Arabia - plus India. (One online source of GDP/trade info for Iran showed 'not identified' as their second largest trading partner; nor does it show which 'trade goods or services'. Weird.) Then again - Iran has joined most of the developed world as its GDP is becoming more reliant on 'services'. (No idea what 'services' they export.)

Assuming that the books about DT are accurate: senior Cabinet, GOP and military tend to not trust his impulsivity therefore are even more likely to do the due-diligence/check-recheck process. Which means that either DT ordered this strike long ago and everyone ran out of red tape (stalling tactics) or their own intel discovered a clear and present danger. Too bad we won't find out for about 50 years or so.

172:

Charlie Stross @ 151:

[I]t's the part where you print pages in proper sequence across multiple sheets of paper that's got me buffaloed.

The key concept you're missing is Imposition. (One of the reason publishers pay typesetting bureaux with expensive licenses for Quark Publishing System or Adobe InDesign is because those DTP packages handle the imposition side of layout transparently and with all sorts of configurable options, e.g. ability to add tiny margin offsets to compensate for the thickness of the pages before/after the current one within the current signature once it's stitched).

I'm not really missing it. I just didn't know what the word I needed to describe it ... and lamenting the lack of consumer level software that can automagically handle "imposition" for someone like me who hates reading books on a screen.

173:

if the Iranians don't want to escalate

They would need to surrender, immediately and unconditionally.

You have to remember that to many in the US and Trump in particular, the existence of Iran is an insult and an attack. They are not subservient to him, and they dare to contradict him. What the US has done is pure self-defence against an ongoing war on the US waged by Iran. They have supported enemies of the state, they have attacked innocent military vessels in Iranian waters, they have violated sanctions imposed entirely justly by the US in retaliation for Iran hewing to some bullshit "nuclear deal" that was a complete scam from the very start, they have even tried to sell oil for something other than US dollars. The only reasonable response would be invasion and destruction, so merely murdering a military officer is nothing. Iran should apolgise for making that necessary.

174:

Since I haven't memorize On The Psychology of Military Incompetence, my key question right now is who, among the leadership on both sides, is competent, and who is not? There have been accusations that many in the US brass leading the Afghan War followed in Elphinstone's footsteps, shall we say. An Agent Orange went to a military school, so he's got form for being a WWI-style general, even if he doesn't have sufficient character.

The thing to worry about is if the brass on the Iranian, US, and Russian sides all take after, well, Elphinstone or the brave British Generals of WWI. High test authoritarian followers given responsibilities orders of magnitude beyond their Peter Principle maxima could be a real problem.

175:

Graydon @ 162:

You need software that can handle imposition.

And remember that the imposition you want is in some respects specific to the paper and printing mechanism you're going to use. This is generally why it's really best to contract book-making. It's a highly specialized trade.

Works great if you're a writer who wants to publish your own book. Not so great if you're just a reader who wants to read a book that's not available in print.

It's not your fault the industry is set up that way, but it still sucks. And it is a problem with the technology I hope someone will figure out a way to fix someday (SOON).

176:

Perhaps not the appropriate basis of concern.

The US has a strong consensus that the Islamic Republic is an illegitimate state and should be destroyed. This is much, much wider than Trump or the Republican Party; it includes a whole lot of the professionals in the machinery of state. It includes most of what's passing for strategic thinkers in the Trump Administration.

That consensus has been producing plans since the Carter administration.

The Islamic Republic has been producing plans for just as long. (and less coherently; the Revolutionary Guard and the overt state and the army probably all have plans, and they're not the same plans.)

The way this works is that the situation is fluid, intelligence is fragmented at best and false at worst, and therefor ceases to drive either planning or caution. (if you wait for good intelligence you don't act, and the present pass is that not acting is intolerable.) Nobody actually does "develop reconnaissance" anymore; it requires a degree of reserves that would have been considered essential in 1940 and don't existing anywhere for anyone today. (It kinda also relies on a lot more of a different kind of the fog of war than we presently possess.) So the only thing that can happen is for someone to follow an operational plan.

The chance of it being an appropriate plan, capable of delivering an acceptable resolution, is approximately zero. Plans are nearly always out of date; there may not be an appropriate plan; it's certainly not likely that anybody's planning took into account a US commander-in-chief who will behave randomly. (That's the best case; it's possible Trump is being tasked with maximizing the damage.)

The concern at that point isn't for peter-principled field commanders, who are embedded in the mesh of modern communications today anyway; there's the example of an early Desert Storm shoot/no shoot decision where a fighter pilot asked permission to shoot early (while they had an airborne target) and it took less than twenty minutes to escalate that to the President and send permission back down the chain of command. The concern is how quickly does the political apparatus produce coherent objectives and demand means and results consistent with those objectives. (Effectively, "we want a plan that does this, for some achievable value of this.)

Iran can maybe do that. The US, in the grip of a hostile puppet and the Slaver Slow Rebellion, cannot.

177:

And it is a problem with the technology I hope someone will figure out a way to fix someday (SOON).

It's very probably in the same category as a bra-fitting algorithm; the effort to develop the automation can't be supported by expected sales.

Book layout really is an art; having someone do a skilled job is consequently not cheap. It's something I've thought about for when the Commonweal is finished and there might be enough readers that such a project could pay its own costs, but I'm honestly not hopeful of this.

(As of some time in November of 2019, the then-extant four Commonweal books have sold something like 2100 copies. The people who like them do indeed like them, but those are not the sort of sales numbers which excite publishers or justify print runs.)

178:

SFReader @ 171: Re:

' ... have had no issues murdering someone (and any poor sod standing nearby) on the orders of the deranged idiot.'

Didn't Reagan unseat Noriega by having him charged with drug smuggling, money laundering, etc.? Not your typical move for unseating the de facto head of state - seems most other world leaders allow other heads of state a lot of latitude when it comes to crime. (Noriega served time in the US and in France.)

No, "Reagan" propped Norieaga up in power while the Iran-Contra thingy was going on. Norieaga was "Reagan's" primary logistical pipeline on the "Contras" end of the operation.

It was Bush the elder who decided the time had come to take Noriega out before he could "spill the beans" and "the chickens could come back home to roost" with George H.W. Bush. And even then, Bush didn't have Noriega deposed because was such a bad man; it was just that the cost of upkeep was becoming more and more unsustainable. The criminal trial & conviction was more to discredit Noriega as a witness against "Reagan" & Bush than it was to punish him for any crimes he'd actually committed.

179:

Heteromeles @ 174: Since I haven't memorize On The Psychology of Military Incompetence, my key question right now is who, among the leadership on both sides, is competent, and who is not?

I can't think of a single "leader" on either side I'd accuse of being unduly competent.

180:

I fail to see the difference between our positions, but I'll take your word for it. SpecOps commanded by idiots is where we get the RANGER SMASH! meme after all.

More to the point, you've got to remember that Trump needs a DISTRACTION. In the absence of other evidence, that's what this is supposed to be: something that --distracts from impeachment --distracts from issues of health, family, or shenanigans he doesn't want people paying attention to --something that energizes his base (although that may backfire, David Duke is tweeting how stoopid this is) --something that causes his opponents to freak out and waste energy (which they are).

The thing that concerns me is that, IIRC, Iran is dealing with anti-government protests large enough to cause them to shut down internet connections, among other things.

Problem is, they're looking for a distraction too.

The problem is, if either the leaders aren't sufficiently competent or their planning is sufficiently bad, things could get out of control. And that would kinda suck.

181:

It was a military-style private school, the kind where they send boys who aren't otherwise teachable, not something like an actual prep school for the military. AFAICT, Himself learned very little that was useful - he's been convinced that he's perfect in every way since he was about 5 years old chronologically.

182:

“Looks like Scribus is a 32 bit Mac only application, which might be a bit of a problem going forward even before the apparently steep learning curve.”

Really? The once or twice I’ve used it was on Windows. Looks like there’s a download for pretty much everything but iOS:

https://www.scribus.net/downloads/stable-branch/

I’m be surprised if it can’t handle imposition too. Learning curve - I vaguely remember the tool layout was a bit clunky, but it’s roughly the same visual metaphors as any other layout program (such as MS Publisher or Adobe InDesign).

183:

Well so far they’ve gotten away with killing him, Iran hasn’t done shit other then threaten, Congress hasn’t done shit other then whine and the rest of the world seems to be turning a blind eye as well

They even did another strike this morning to emphasize how little of a shit they give about what anyone thinks or who scared they are of Iran

In what way is that incompetence?

So far seems to be going swimmingly for the Donald, unless he really did wanted a greater response and an actual war

184:

China’s approach to the trade war Trump started indicates they do: they’ve been systematically making moves that apply pain to industries in states that went Trump.

Is there any reason to assume Iran’s political class is less competent?

185:

China’s approach has had no measurable impact on trumps approval numbers

186:

Seriously? If Iran decides to kinetically retaliate as opposed to e.g. orchestrating an expulsion of the US from Iraq plus some retaliation via proxies, why would they retaliate immediately? Why would they be overt about retaliation? Ex-Iranian intel officer says Iran, not Libya, behind Lockerbie attack (March 11, 2014) 5+ months between Iran Air 655 and Pan Am 103. Not clear that Iran did it.

China’s approach has had no measurable impact on trumps approval numbers Is this based on an analysis of statewide polls?

187:

They would be overt about retaliation because their population is screaming for revenge ?

All of this “retaliation” rests on the rather shaky foundations that Iran has nasty ways to hurt American that they have up until now not employed but have just been sitting on

Why would they have not employed them?

It’s not like they don’t want to hurt America

The only reason I can think of is it would start a war

Well they still don’t want to start a war

Everything else they’ve been going full steam with for years, they might be able to figure out a way to dial it up a notch temporarily and claim a victory but if they could figure out a way to do more or better terrorism they’d have done it already

Everything you could ever want to know about trumps polls are at

https://fivethirtyeight.com/

188:

Trump's present intellectual attainments approximated those of cabbage. Possibly an over-caffeinated parrot.

Trump is terrified of something. Going to jail, getting whacked, being revealed as a pauper and stooge, direct and intractable consequence of the brain rot, who knows? Trump's trying to avoid that thing. That is the absolutely the limit of Trump's thinking.

Everyone around Trump -- the Slaver Slow Rebellion, the belief in Women, Cattle, and Slaves as biblically mandated categories of property which cannot be denied white men -- is going wag-the-dog because they're trapped between knowledge that they aren't politically supported on anything but slaves and their inability to invoke Amendment XXV. (God-king autocracy has failure modes. This is maybe three of them happening at once.)

Iran is a modern country, industrial and post-demographic transition, with a form of government that only works per-demographic transition and whose best strategic outcome (viewed as Persia-the-ancient-nation) is for the Islamic Republic to fall and be replaced by the Republic of Iran, with the change driven by internal and fundamentally peaceful, consent-of-the-governed, processes. That would give a whole lot of people an excuse to drop the sanctions. (At the possible cost of shipping a few former Iranian politicos to the Hague.) Their current government's crisis of legitimacy can't be resolved without EITHER reversing the demographic transition (and accompanying catastrophic economic shrinkage, mass deaths, and loss of regional relevance) or allowing secular governance to come in. (Surrendering religious control of the courts, minimally.)

So the perfect outcome, well, no, we're not going to get that. (The Perfect Outcome is for Marine Two to crash into Trump with no survivors, on the one hand, and for the Islamic Republic to be replaced by the straight-up Republic, and for President Pelosi to get recognition of this new nation through the US Senate and for the sanctions to be dropped, on the other. The "welcome to the community of nations and here are your security guarantees and here's the timeline to stop oil extraction and here's the supporting investment for your new energy sector and goodness yes we'll look the other way if a few committed terrorists from the former regime need to be shot" all happen quietly. President Pelosi's habit of using Mitch McConnell's shrunken head as a paperweight isn't completely quiet but she refuses to answer questions about it.)

What we're actually going to get? It depends on how the faction fights settle out.

Right now there are at least four.

There's one going on in Iran on the Revolutionary Guard side; who is in charge now?

There's one going on in Iran on the political side; what's the least much that maintains the shakey legitimacy of the Islamic Republic? (that's the fundamental problem from the current ruling class's viewpoint, since the long term answer looks like "nothing".)

There's one going on in the US; impeachment, forty years of policy to destroy the Islamic Republic, the Slow Rebellion, and the uncomfortable fact that the US military's current readiness states are shit all collide to try to constrain the public policy statements somehow. It also constrains the policy actually pursued.

The other one going on in the US is the increasingly shaky legitimacy of wars for oil; it's not working, it's obviously not working, the kids are looking at a world that's going to burn and getting not so much radicalized -- nothing politically legitimate is floating around right now -- but uneasily pre-radicalized. So there's more likely to be a Russian Revolution ("this is intolerable", with the ideology arriving later via chaotic processes) than a Glorious Revolution (where the ideology was in place and used as a normative basis for outcomes).

Out of all that, what we're going to get is down to the unwinding spirits of chaos and the folly of our age. I doubt anyone with sufficient second sight to know retains the sanity to type, and all I can say for myself is that I've been stocking up on dry staple foodstuffs and have a battery-charging schedule reminder in my phone calendar.

189:

That’s a tough nut to crack: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/01/23/464129029/donald-trump-i-could-shoot-somebodyand-i-wouldnt-lose-any-voters But the fact that they’re trying indicates that they are working from a model of the US that distinguishes between Trump, various types of his supporters, and the rest of the country.

190:

Don’t forget it’s not just who is running the Revolutionary Guard it’s also who is going to be the new #2 man, heir apparent

As far as US force readiness , yes and no. Most of the military is out of Iraq and Afghanistan at this point, but those areas still represent flash points that could lead to over extension

Rest I pretty much agree with

191:

It's not so much immediate force readiness as it's having fought this very long war without the necessary continuous planning and stable funding, so the maintenance status of a whole lot of kit's doubtful and the human component's been badly overstressed. Plus the end-of-history hit as more structural autocracy comes in just in time to throw everything into "and you really need to trust the lower ranks" circumstances, for something of an institutional structure issue.

There really isn't any substitute for overall -- meaning political -- leadership insisting on A Plan and funding that plan. Which is not what's happened overall since 2000.

192:

Well, I think that comparison is an insult, to brassicas!!

193:

Re: 'The criminal trial & conviction was more to discredit Noriega as a witness against "Reagan" & Bush than it was to punish him for any crimes he'd actually committed.'

Thanks! Just looked up Iran-Contra to remind myself of what happened. Yes - definitely in keeping with Bush-the-elder's pragmatic thinking/policy style.

194:

The Third Reich was doomed by the insanely racist ideology that powered it, and it would have fizzled faster had the German generals, drunk on success beyond their wildest dreams, ignored all of Hitler's input.

Be careful about the sources of your history, as there was a very concerted effort during the pivot from WW2 to the Cold War to whitewash the German military (at least, the portions that had been captured by the Western Allies) to keep it around to be the first line of defense against the Warsaw Pact. As a result, there are many memoirs written by former Wehrmacht officers that take the "It's all Hitler's fault." line to paper over both their own part in the monstrosity and their failings as officers.

The German army, going back to when it was the Prussian army, disdained the boring work of logistics and economic preparation and planning in favor of the dash of maneuver and tactical or strategic envelopments. Despite how it looked to the world when they started, Nazi Germany was no more capable of defeating the United Kingdom, the USSR, or the US. The former was across water, the middle too wide, and the latter both too wide and across water.

Basically, getting to a timeline where Nazi Germany (run by the actual Nazis, not rational people wearing Nazi name tags) survives to 1950 would take changes that basically amount to divine intervention.

Sorry for the novel, but that myth bugs me.

195:

Let alone caffeinated parrots!

196:

gift box of upscale candies that is infested with angry kraits That’s even better than Crunchy Frog & Spring Surprise!

197:

without the necessary continuous planning and stable funding

Speaking of which, didn't they just cut current recruits off from long-term medical care? I read that they get two years after discharge now, and cash for long-term injuries rather than support.

I'm not saying that's an attempt to stop smart people joining the military, I don't think there's that level of thought gone into the change. But I do think it's going to change the calculation for a lot of people because now they have to budget on buying health insurance post-service as part of the cost of serving. I wonder if some cunning weasel will decide to sell such a package just to make clear the value of what's been taken away?

198:

This truly was incredibly stupid even from Trump's own viewpoint. Presumably he did it to distract attention from the impeachment brou ha ha. Whatever for? The Demos have talked themselves into a corner.

They are refusing to forward the impeachment articles to the Senate unless McConnell should have a moment of temporary insanity and give them what they want, which he doesn't have to and won't. Formally, McConnell is currently just saying that he'll run a trial the same way as to witnesses that the Clinton impeachment did, and the only Democratic response is to fume. And meanwhile all polls indicate that the American public thinks Trump is probably guilty of something here, but who cares, this is boring and unimportant.

Which is true, the Democrats managed to pick out the worst and weakest possible ground they could have chosen from a political aspect, namely typical Washington politicking dragging in a country most Americans barely know exists. I guess the hope was to get it popular from good ol' American hatred of foreigners, but the Republicans are so much better at that. Really, the plan was to get some Republicans on board mossbacked enough to think Russia is still a communist country trying to poison America's precious bodily fluids with fluoride, so hobnobbing with Russians is impeachable. Well, didn't work.

Which means it'll never go to a Senate vote, Trump has won, and he'll get the same polling boom Clinton got out of our last impeachment comedy. In short, Trump had won and he didn't even seem to notice that, being Trump. Now, everyone knows that a US invasion of Iran would be a disaster, Vietnam all over again, bringing the US right back to the '60s probably, but some here are saying that wouldn't matter, as the US could "fuck shit up" in Iran. Well, besides putting an end to any dissidence in Iran vs. the mullahs, they forget that Iran would have a simple response. It would be easy and unpreventable for Iran to make the Strait of Hormuz unpassable by oil tankers, which would quite simply destroy the economy of planet earth. So, short of nuking Iran, there is no way the US could "win" a war with Iran. One hopes Trump isn't crazy enough for that.

199:

The Strait is not quite what it once was. Currently it handles about 21% of the works oil consumption. However the saudis could pick up 5% if that through their Red Sea pipeline

So not quite at the destroying the economy of planet earth level of effect any more, though would certainly not be a good thing

Also “easy and unpreventable” are not the common military opinions. Also a guaranteed way to draw in many other nations opposing them

This fits under the “suicide” playbook for Iran

200:

Presumably he did it to distract attention from the impeachment brou ha ha. Whatever for? The Demos have talked themselves into a corner.

They are refusing to forward the impeachment articles to the Senate unless McConnell should have a moment of temporary insanity and give them what they want, which he doesn't have to and won't.

I think you miss their point.

There was good reason to drag out the investigation process in the House - but now Donald is "impeached President Donald Trump" for the rest of history. That's a win for them and a big hit to his ego; no wonder he's flailing around for distractions.

As you point out, McConnell will never let witnesses testify. Democrats can and will keep pointing out through the election season that all the witnesses who claim no wrongdoing could testify to clear Trump's name if only McConnell would let them.

And they haven't lost as much as you might think. There's not actually any rule that a president can't be impeached twice. Someone who commits two different crimes can be tried in two different cases.

201:

Has [Escape from Puroland] been published yet an I missed it?

As far as I know it's still in the editorial digestive system somewhere. Charlie hasn't mentioned it lately.

202:

You have to remember that to many in the US and Trump in particular, the existence of Iran is an insult and an attack. They are not subservient to him, and they dare to contradict him. What the US has done is pure self-defence against an ongoing war on the US waged by Iran.

A correction: It's internally perceived as pure self defense against an ongoing war on them waged by Iran's continuing to exist.

Obviously this has nothing to do with Iranian politics domestic or foreign; it has quite a lot to do with the internal psychology of narcissists who hate the idea of people living lives that don't revolve around them.

This leaves Iran with a very challenging situation, given that they have to try handling a man so unpredictable his own allies and family often can't anticipate what he'll say or do.

Incidentally, I suggest never bringing up the nuclear deal. The Iranians were upholding it when Trump realized he could break something made by Obama; there's no way to make the US look good there so the best strategy is not mentioning it at all.

203:

The Strait is not quite what it once was. Currently it handles about 21% of the works oil consumption. However the saudis could pick up 5% if that through their Red Sea pipeline.

That would be more comforting if that pipeline had not been shut down by drone strike just this summer. I recall we discussed it on this blog, too.

If I were a Middle Eastern power and thought Saudi Arabia might be a problem, I'd sure have multiple plans for messing up the oil industry.

204:

How Iran retaliates, depends on the message they want to send and to whom.

If they still want to play ball with EU and China, they go after the stupid guy personally, possibly taking out one of his relatives.

If they want to goad USA into doing something stupid, they go for a symbolically significant but not necessarily military target, maybe even on US soil.

If they just want to be able to say they got eye for eye, they'll take any good target of opportunity: Some general, plane or ship somewhere.

And they'll take their sweet time: Right now security is all-hands-overtime, by summer that will have deteriorated.

But first Tehran have to decide is if they want Trumpolino reelected, and that is a hard call...

205:

What the USA & at least one poster here ( Unholyguy ) don't/won't/can't realise is that the "Islamic Republic" would almost certainly be LESS "islamic" if it was LEFT ALONE. ( The Boss was there in November, following part of the Silk Road - & it's a lot more welcoming & pleasant than parts of fucking Han China ... ) BUT ... every time the US does something terminally stupid, it drives them back to the relgious extremism ... starting with trashing the nuclear deal, of course.

As JBS says - this shit can only get worse & @ 159 - you are probably right there too .... ... @ 170 YES< they do - because under Obama, they had a road out to some sort of peace & security & a lessening of tensions ... thrown away by DT. See also RvdH @ 190 - yes, they can separate DT & the Slavers from the rest of the US.

gasdive @ 1676 The elder brother of a very old friend was an RAF officer for many years. Got to Group-Captain & retired ... proptly re-enrolled as a Liutenant, so that he could carry on FLYING ... until 2nd Gulf ( Blair/Shrub ) erupted ... handed in his commission the next week - as did quite a few others AIUI.

moz @ 173 YOU FORGOT THE /SNARK Tag there .....

Heteromeles @ 174 the brave British Generals of WWI SNARL - I'm tired of this .... Which major army had the LOWEST casualty rate in WWI? The British. IF the Brit Generals were so utterly incompetent, then how come the always-supposedly-better German Generals got equally absolutely nowhere at all, eh? After all, in the end the meat-grinder at Verdun killed more Germans than French ... And so on. I will accept the stricture "If & only if" it applies to all, equally - which is much closer to the truth.

Agree about the "Peter Principle", though - especially given US exceptoionalism & arrogance - of which there were multiple examples iN WWII, actually & since then, as well. [Want a list? ]

Greydon Iran is a modern country, industrial and post-demographic transition, with a form of government that only works per-demographic transition and whose best strategic outcome (viewed as Persia-the-ancient-nation) is for the Islamic Republic to fall and be replaced by the Republic of Iran, with the change driven by internal and fundamentally peaceful, consent-of-the-governed, processes. YES This ... as reported back by the Boss on her return - she wants to go again, same as the Northern "Stans" - but never, ever the Han territory again .... which tells you something.

PH-K @ 206 If they still want to play ball with EU and China And they have made it clear that they do ... here's hoping our new misgovernmnt get some sense this time & don't crawl up DT's arsehole - wht do you think? ( Don't answer that! ) No - they want Trump OUT & another Obama or similar, so they can go back to the "deal" they had & much-lessened sanctions.

206:

No, it has not been published yet. Maybe later this year. (Not confirmed.)

207:

The people who like them do indeed like them, but those are not the sort of sales numbers which excite publishers or justify print runs.

I don't want to sound overly harsh here, but I'd put this down to a combination of (a) a resolute, morally-grounded determination not to make the books available to roughly 90-95% of the buying public, and (b) a marketing campaign that, at best, isn't effective (and at worst either doesn't exist or is counterproductive).

Seriously, I get that you don't like Amazon's T&C's, but they're 80% of the ebook market in the US (more like 90% in the UK) and if you're not on the Kindle store you don't exist: barely 1% of ebook readers even know that they can buy an ebook elsewhere and transfer it across onto their phone or tablet. And also books don't sell on their own, they sell by word of mouth, but word of mouth is a chicken-and-egg situation that needs to be kickstarted with a lot of mouth: the sales figures you're talking about are at the low end of the free review copies a publisher would distribute when trying to bootstrap a promising midlist author's career.

This is not a reflection on you as a person and it doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong -- only you can define your terms of reference -- but it does mean that the Commonwealth books are unlikely to take the market by storm any time soon if you carry on this way.

208:

"They would be overt about retaliation because their population is screaming for revenge ? All of this “retaliation” rests on the rather shaky foundations that Iran has nasty ways to hurt American that they have up until now not employed but have just been sitting on. Why would they have not employed them?"

One of the problems with assassinating high-raking persons (military, civil service, or politics) of another country is that it practically makes any negotiations impossible. The other side cannot trust any promises on the safety of the negotiators.

On the other hand, if your intention is to make any negotiations as difficult as possible (read: impossible) and set up the scene for a proper war, then one of the easiest ways to do that is to openly kill a sufficiently high-ranking member of the other country’s state organization.

At the same time it is more and more difficult to prevent a state-level adversary from assassinating your own personnel. Especially if the action is allowed to take some time before performed.

Therefore, it is quite likely that in the case of serious retaliation we will not hear from it for some time. May take months or even years.

It seems that the Iranian government made a serious mistake when agreeing to the nuclear deal and following its obligations. They lost the only real way of being safe. The North-Korea is practically safe because it has nuclear weapons and sufficient tools for delivering them to the soil of USA.

209:

Be careful about the sources of your history, as there was a very concerted effort during the pivot from WW2 to the Cold War to whitewash the German military

I think my reading of the history of the time predates that: remember, I'm the child of people who lived through the war (my father served; I went to a synagogue where we had multiple concentration camp survivors as members), and was reading people like Shirer in my teens, not whitewashing by Nazi generals. Yes, more stuff has come to light with the expiration of secrecy periods and cover-ups (on the allied side), but also there was a lot less tolerance of Nazi bullshit among the survivors with direct experience of being bombed.

210:

"it would have fizzled faster had the German generals, drunk on success beyond their wildest dreams, ignored all of Hitler's input.

Be careful about the sources of your history, as there was a very concerted effort during the pivot from WW2 to the Cold War to whitewash the German military..."

It was during the war itself that we lost interest in the idea of assassinating Hitler, because it was apparent that it was greatly to our advantage for the other side to be commanded by a corporal who was rapidly going round the bend than by someone who might actually have some military clue.

It wasn't the generals getting "drunk on success", it was Hitler getting drunk on his fantasies of the Germans as übermenschen and insisting that they were capable of more and more miraculous feats the more obvious it became that they were less and less capable of any kind of feat any more.

"The German army, going back to when it was the Prussian army, disdained the boring work of logistics and economic preparation and planning"

...ensured that Germany built a railway network designed for military purposes, to transport troops and equipment rapidly to anywhere or everywhere along their borders, and the specialised military units to keep railways functioning during wartime - having learned from observing rail warfare operations during the TSR... spent years drawing up plans for invading France prior to WW1... ditto England, which we were worried about ("Riddle of the Sands" is based around a genuine possibility) even if it did turn out later that they had no idea what sort of boats you need to get troops across the North Sea... no, they loved logistic planning, perhaps their main failing in that area was getting so caught up in the plan is everything that they were not good at modifying or switching plans on short notice.

The "dash of manoeuvre" sort of thing was a French army fixation, which they called élan, and English has more or less borrowed the French word to describe it in consequence. Attaquez, attaquez, attaquez!

211:

The nuclear deal may be a red herring.

Remember, the Ayatollahs are essentially religious judge-scholars? And Ayatollah Khomenei, the father of their revolution, issued a fatwah declaring that use of nuclear weapons (and, presumably, other weapons of mass destruction) was religiously impermissible because it was impossible to ensure that innocent non-combatants were spared. This is a prohibition on strategic nukes: I gather a later fatwah but the current supreme leader clarified it and said that limited use of nukes on a battlefield against a nuclear-armed enemy who started it might be permissible. But at this point, smart bombs and stuff like the flying ginsu Hellfire missile look far more compatible with Iranian doctrine than battlefield nukes (which cost an arm and a leg to build, maintain, and secure and probably can't be used anyway).

Also remember the 1980-89 war affected Iranian revolutionary guards and regular military born between 1960 and 1970 -- precisely the generation now filling senior ranks in the IRG and army. They got gassed: they've seen WMDs up close and personal thanks to Saddam. And I suspect they may have a bit of the Austrian Corporal's aversion to same.

Iran insisted all along that the nuclear enrichment program was for a civil power reactor, that they were pursuing civil nuclear energy because their oil would eventually run out and they have heavy industries to power (they make 20% of the automobiles sold in Asia). This is actually far more plausible than looking for some looney tunes A-bomb program that is not only militarily impractical because [insert usual list of why nobody's used the bomb since 1945 here], but also religiously forbidden.

The only exception I can see is regional deterrence. Israel has the bomb: but the Islamic Republic has survived 40 years despite that, so strike Israel off the list of excuses. But there's also the deeply worrying pissing match with the Saudis, over an essentially 1600 year old blood feud that's escalated into a holy war. There are rumours that Saudi Arabia bankrolled the Pakistani bomb on the understanding that they could borrow bits of it if they ever needed one of their own, because Iran: if Saudi nuclearizes and keeps up the anti-shi'ite rhetoric, it's not impossible Iran would want to be in a position to deter them. (Although, as above: non-nuclear deterrence may work better when you're so close you nearly share a land border.)

212:

But first Tehran have to decide is if they want Trumpolino reelected, and that is a hard call...

Assuming a rational Iranian response:

a) There's no hurry. Leave the US to stew in its own security theatre for a while, by issuing vague but ominous warnings of a future response.

b) If possible, file a properly documented case with the ICC in the Hague. Go for multiple counts of murder and/or war crimes: it's not a reach.

c) Wait until after the US presidential election. THEN:

c(1): If Trump is re-elected, do something that affects him personally -- e.g. massive damage to his brand (which associates with his ego, such as multiple simultaneous attacks on Trump properties around the world) or his children

c(2): If Trump loses the election and the new POTUS is rational, open up a diplomatic back-channel to see if it's possible to extradite Trump to the Hague for trial.

Obviously no POTUS will allow any of their predecessors to stand trial for crimes of office -- it'd saw off the branch they're sitting on -- but it plays to the rest of the world as Iran being the sensible folks. In preparation for:

d) Trial in absentia in Iran, death sentence, and execution order. Followed by assassination of Donald Trump by an Iranian hit squad, after he leaves office (and his Secret Service detachment is reduced from approximately a batallion to two officers serving out their countdown until retirement).

This approach might well save them from anything worse than token censure by anyone outside the USA, and as for the USA, the USA already thinks it's at war with Iran: is a new Democratic POTUS going to double-down in defense of Trump?

Alas, I am not optimistic that delayed gratification and rational behaviour is going to win out here. In fact, I'd bet against it.

213:

Add to this that "some people" have explicitly stated buy signals for a dead tree edition, and an active dislike of e-readers. You're certainly sending us a "don't buy my stuff because you also have to buy hardware you don't want" message.

214:

Successive Republican Presidents have installed a highly effective passive defence against assassination: the automatic succession of the Presidency to dangerously-stupid or psychopathic Vice-president.

The Ayatollah and the Revolutionary Council do not want Mike Pence in the White House.

For the general good, and for our peace of mind, I choose not to speculate as to who or what would be the 'passive-defence VP' for Pence.

215:

The best bang-per-buck with the lowest risk of apocalyptic retaliation against Iran is to destabilise The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

A servile revolt in any Arabian city - including the Emirates - would do it.

So, too, would targeted assassinations among the clans: the succession disputes and vendetta would become a generation of low-level warfare.

Driving out the foreign technicians would do it nicely, and there are Saudi Citizens who want that; and it would have the same effect, without actually committing this century's worst war crime to date, as destroying the Kingdom's drinking water infrastructure.

216:

Bozo? He does meet the main qualification for the job of being a "native-born USian".

217:

There's no hurry.

I would tend to disagree: When a rival officially murders a high ranking member of your government, you have to respond within a shortish time frame. If you seem to let it slide, you make your government walking targets that can be murdered with impunity.

On the other hand, Trump is likely trying to get a heavy handed response, so Iran has to walk a line to both hurt Trump and avoid to play into his hand.

Maybe they could leak Trumps tax returns? He seems pretty adamant to keep them a secret. Or push the Iraqi government to close US bases in Iraq?

Trial in absentia in Iran, death sentence, and execution order. Followed by assassination of Donald Trump by an Iranian hit squad, after he leaves office

Given that the then current president is some day going to be a former president that has made a lot of enemies (as all POTUS do), he or she is going to respond as if it was an attack on the current president.

218:

Successive Republican Presidents have installed a highly effective passive defence against assassination: the automatic succession of the Presidency to dangerously-stupid or psychopathic Vice-president. The Ayatollah and the Revolutionary Council do not want Mike Pence in the White House.

Not only would assassinating Trump be hard, it would violate the tit-for-tat principle. It would also make him a martyr. They don't want statues to Trump, they want him remembered with shame like Nixon or Mussolini. Donald Trump himself is only a valid target if the US kills the Ayatollah.

No, it's Mike Pence who's a logical target for Iranian revenge.

But what if they're smart or subtle? It's hard enough to find people in the US who really care about Pence, and his position on the org chart doesn't reflect his importance. If they wanted to cripple Trump's political machine they'd kill Mitch McConnell[1]. Unexpectedly losing him would throw the Republican power structure into chaos.

If they were after personal vengeance, Trump's adult children are obvious targets. His son-in-law is even called a Middle East expert.

[1] Mitch would be honestly mourned by, oh, dozens of Americans. Several Russian oligarchs too, if rumors are true.

219:

On the other hand, Trump is likely trying to get a heavy handed response, so Iran has to walk a line to both hurt Trump and avoid to play into his hand. Maybe they could leak Trumps tax returns? He seems pretty adamant to keep them a secret.

I approve of filing charges in the Hague; the US will never extradite but being a wanted criminal will be a frustration and shame to Donald the rest of his life. Particularly when people he wants to dismiss as his social inferiors mention it.

The taxes are a fun idea and the only obstacle I can see is that Iran might not have enough voice in the US domestic media to play it out. Assume they have those documents. Donald's base doesn't care about his tax cheats but Iranian domestic news would love to show an American president getting toyed with and manipulated by someone on their side.

It's a valid tactic to tease public release and see what they can get out of Donald. As you and others have observed, it's pretty clear there's something in there that he's desperate to keep secret.

220:

"That would be more comforting if that pipeline had not been shut down by drone strike just this summer. I recall we discussed it on this blog, too."

In addition, what would blocking 15% of world oil production do to the price of oil?

[hint - check the sheet of paper on the upper right-hand corner of Putin's desk for a detailed breakdown.]

221:

"How Iran retaliates, depends on the message they want to send and to whom."

My bet is that they'll work with (lean on) the government of Iraq to expel US forces from the country.

They just got an enormous boost from the US demonstrating quite publicly that they will kill anybody in Iraq, anywhere in Iraq, at will.

222:

"It was during the war itself that we lost interest in the idea of assassinating Hitler, because it was apparent that it was greatly to our advantage for the other side to be commanded by a corporal who was rapidly going round the bend than by someone who might actually have some military clue."

Or - to assassinate Hitler with the technology of the time was d*mn near impossible, and would have taken a spymaster's dream sources deeply embedded with incredibly excellent communications capability.

If the Allies had the latter, then they would have used that; it'd be far more valuable.

223:

The Blueprint Iran Could Follow After Soleimani’s Death, Uri Friedman.

Former U.S. official Ilan Goldenberg ... foresees Iran breaking free of the remaining restraints on its nuclear-weapons program. He also expects Tehran to green-light “all-out conflict” by Shiite militias in Iraq against American forces, diplomats, and personnel in Iraq; Hezbollah attacks against Americans in Lebanon and targets in Israel; rocket attacks on international oil assets or U.S. bases in Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates; and potentially even terrorist attacks in the United States and around the world. The counterterrorism analyst Charles Lister anticipates intense violence in Syria and Iraq that will pressure the United States to withdraw militarily from both countries, while the Middle East expert Jon Alterman thinks cyber warfare is coming. “The entire world will need to be on high alert for months or (more likely) years,” he writes.

For those saying, "Iran has not done anything, so clearly they are backing down", I would suggest the leaders (and people) of Iran might be a bit more patient in their vengeance than you.

224:

Not only republican presidents, everybody have been doing it since Reagan got shot, for instance Al Gore was Clintons best life insurance. Obama may or may not have broken the pattern, but Mike Pence is certainly only there for Trumps personal safety.

For that same reason Pence is safe from the iranians revenge, Trump wouldn't care one iota about his death.

If Iran want tit for tat, it's the Kushners who should be worried, because the entire "special envoi to middle east" thing is like having a bulls-eye painted on your back, which is why I expect no Kushners to set foot in middle east for the rest of the Trump presidency.

One aspect of how drones have developed in the last decade, in particular how hard it is to attribute who controlled them, is that it must be assumed as certain, that most significant embassies/spy-hubs have cheap COTS drones in stock, with custom but deniable payloads ranging from SIGINT to plastic explosives.

Even if the passengers ultimately survive, a direct emplacement of 100g explosives on the roof of an armoured car, under SS protection, in the middle of WDC, would be undisputed "win" for Iran, and therefore it wouldn't surprise me.

225:

"For those saying, "Iran has not done anything, so clearly they are backing down", I would suggest the leaders (and people) of Iran might be a bit more patient in their vengeance than you."

In addition, Iran is under serious constraints (dealing with the USA) and knows that public support for a war is near zero. Even the warmongering press has learned a few lessons from the Iraq War.

Iran's first and required step is for them to not give Trump a 'provocation'.

226:

Nile YES Thoroughly destabilising Saudi is win-win-win for Iran Fucks up the entire US relationships in the area, fucks up oil prices & KARBALA - never, ever forget Karbala.

Barry Actually, if Adlof could have been knocked off any time between ooh November 1942 & June 1944 ... I think the German generals would havw=e rapidly withdrawn to the lines of .... oh mid-September 1939 & called for peace ... claiming "It was Adolf - he;s dead, you can have all your land back .... SORRY!" Might have got away with it, too .....

Lavery Unlikely They have form for targeted revenge, not an all-over-the-landscape splurge. Now then ... who or what are the targets?

PH-K Slaughterbots ... like we were discussing?

227:

it's pretty clear there's something in there that he's desperate to keep secret.

My darkest hilarious speculation would be that the dementia and concomitant short-term memory loss are advanced enough that whatever he's desperate to keep secret -- which is obviously something long-standing, so it predates the dementia -- has already come out and been spun into irrelevance, but he keeps forgetting this and is in a perpetual tormented tizzy of anticipatory phobia over it.

228:

Speaking of Peter Pan, as we were not too long ago: Happy Public Domain Day!

229:

I suggest you do a bit of googling on both those named individuals' backgrounds. Hint: one's a foreign policy think-tank wonk from the US defense establishment, special experience in Israel-Palestine relations, and the other is a journalist covering the middle-eastern theatre of US imperial military force projection. Basically they're both invested up to their armpits in the "we need a war with Iran, stat" tribe.

You can trust them to give you a good picture of what the war hawks inside the Beltway are thinking. But impartial commentators on international relations? Nope.

230:

One aspect of how drones have developed in the last decade, in particular how hard it is to attribute who controlled them, is that it must be assumed as certain, that most significant embassies/spy-hubs have cheap COTS drones in stock, with custom but deniable payloads ranging from SIGINT to plastic explosives.

Disagree. Hard.

That's not what embassies are for; moreover, even the intel personnel stationed in embassies aren't usually there to spy on the host nation -- if they run agents at all, they usually run agents spying in neighbouring countries, so they can swear truthfully and honestly that they're not spying on their host. (Forget the USA, where this is geographically impractical: think in terms of embassies in Europe, where an attache in Brussels can easily meet with assets working in Berlin or Paris or Amsterdam -- or even London -- on a day-trip basis by car or train.)

If by some mischance an embassy is invaded (see also: Tehran 1979) and the contents are found to include killer drones, this will be global headline news for a month and cause shutdowns and expulsions of that nation's embassies all around the world.

Again: see the outcome of the Libyan Embassy Siege in London in 1984: after that cock-up Libya was diplomatically isolated.

It's much simpler for one of the afforemented attaches to merely put an offshore investment vehicle in touch with a local landlord, enabling said OIV to lease a warehouse, at which point they've got a base. There might be some smuggling via diplomatic bags, but the bags will barely touch the floor inside the embassy before they're whisked out again: more likely, anything dirty will be kept well clear.

231:

That's an American source.

Peter Pan is forever and perpetually, eternally in copyright in the UK. And even after the UK leaves the EU, Peter Pan will be in copyright until 2040 in Spain (post-mortem copyright runs for 90 years, not 70).

232:

On the subject of depressing Januaries: 20 month (month, not year) orange/butterscotch tabby: smart, athletic, social, beautiful orange eyes, fearless, two six month old minions ready to do his bidding at the snap of a paw: vicious lymphoma. 1 week to six months based on response to massive steroid injections, leaning heavily to the lower time. I've never had a pet in living death before; they either come back from the vet right as rain or they don't come back. So we're in this whole awkward, it's either Tuesday or your funeral situation. And while a cat's life isn't a global crisis, I feel like I could sum up our general situation the same way.

And uh, Happy New Year.

233:

That's an American source.

Thank you, I am QUITE aware of that...

Anyway, it's not for the book, but for a film adaptation.

Peter Pan the book is available as a free eBook on Gutenberg, and has been since 2006.

234:

Well yes, "Peter and Wendy" is on Project Gutenberg, and technically illegal to download in the UK ... although I can't really see Great Ormond Street going after PG, or anyone else for that matter unless they're using P&W to make money (which in the UK should be going to the GOSH childrens' charity -- hint: pirating Peter Pan in the UK isn't a good look, despite the copyright weirdness).

235:

Commiserations, that sucks. All I can suggest is, be there for your cat's last days and hours, and don't delay when you see him fading.

(I've been there myself: took Frigg to the vet for the final injection and was told she'd already become dehydrated and lost 300 grams over 72 hours -- burning up from the cancer. Letting go was really hard, but at that point keeping her alive for another day would have been cruel. Whereas I know people who didn't want to say goodbye, and ended up forcing their pet to suffer.)

236:

...and one might ice the cake with the supposition that he doesn't even remember what it was, all he has left is the fixation that he has to keep something secret.

237:

Not the point - I said we lost interest in the idea, without comment on the practicality of it, or indeed on who might be doing it. The Germans themselves tried several times and came close to success, but their failure to actually achieve it ceased to disappoint us.

238:

So there's this (via Reuters): Iran to take international legal measures against U.S. for Soleimani's killing - TV.

DUBAI, Jan 3 (Reuters) - Iran will launch legal measures at the international level to hold the United States to account for the assassination of Qassem Soleimani, Tehran’s most prominent military commander, Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif told state TV on Friday.
“It was clearly a terrorist action ... Iran will launch various legal measures at the international level to hold America to account for Soleimani’s assassination,” Zarif said. (Writing by Parisa Hafezi Editing by Chizu Nomiyama)

Also reported: Iran's supreme leader calls Trump retarded (according to the Daily Mail), the UK's Foreign Secretary (who could himself be described using the R-word) says the assassination was insanely dangerous brinksmanship, and it appears that Trump briefed Israel before Congress.

It looks possible that Iranian short-term retaliation will take the shape of isolating the USA diplomatically by painting them as a rogue state. It's a tactic that doesn't work against a hegemonic power with allies, but since 2016 the US has shat all over the alliance system it built since 1945; sooner or later there'll be a reckoning as the incumbent superpower loses their number one position, and there's a very hard to stomach climb-down point where suddenly the isolation becomes obvious. (It happened to the UK abruptly in 1956.)

Oh, and the Iraqi Parliament is angrily discussing plans to expel all American troops from Iraqi soil.

Mission Accomplished, Mr Trump!

239:

Also of interest, from the Washington Post (apologies if this is paywalled), comes a story that includes: Officials gave differing and incomplete accounts of the intelligence they said prompted Trump to act. Some said they were stunned by his decision, which could lead to war with one of America’s oldest adversaries in the Middle East." “It was tremendously bold and even surprised many of us,” said a senior administration official with knowledge of high-level discussions among Trump and his advisers, who like others spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal deliberations.

Now, WaPo is anti-Trump, pro-Bezos, but it looks like the minions are handing Trump all the responsibility for this one. A previous article hinted that the Pentagon had not prepared for this order and scrambled to implement it.

Getting back to the Psychology of Military Incompetence, the WaPo article also makes some noises that Trump's wants to not look weak, and not have something akin to Benghazi hung on him. That's kind of weird, because Benghazi was something the Republicans manufactured to damage the Obama (democratic) presidency, in part by making it harder for the State Department to defend its installations. Therefore, there's two possible conclusions which don't contradict each other. One is that this is just the usual BS flowing out of the Republicans, and the other is that Trump is worried about appearing weak, but has forgotten the fundamental billionaire rule of leadership, which is that it's about control, not ownership. If he can't control the relationship and can't control himself, then he can't appear strong, no matter how much damage he causes.

240:

but it does mean that the Commonwealth books are unlikely to take the market by storm any time soon if you carry on this way

Absolutely so.

It makes a heroic, but ultimately unsuccessful attempt at pretending to be written in English is the description of someone who liked The March North enough to do a whole-book let's-read thread on a gaming forum. The "pretending to be written in English" part I cannot alter; one writes with the brain chemistry one actually has, not the brain chemistry one would like to have.

In consequence, "Will the acquiring editor like this?" has a strong default answer of "no" in my head; "can I make a career out of this?" has a correspondingly strong "if you want to die in a ditch" answer.

Recognizing that, hey, it's the Century of the Anchovy; I can send the books out into the world to see if they find friends, and that'll do, was freeing. It's not optimal in a bunch of senses, but it's what's practicable.

241:

Just out of curiosity, what kinds of profits/sales are you looking at?

242:

I like your idea.

My take is a bit more pedestrian: Trump's not a billionaire. His cash flows in and out may be in the billions, but he controls/owns less than a billion in assets. And his system of LLCs (or whatever he's done) is so simple that people can actually figure out this fact if they get to see his tax returns.

This is a fundamental problem with the whole term "billionaire." Most of them have deliberately run their assets through so many foundations, trusts, and corporations that they actually don't own much of anything, because ownership can be traced, taxed, and reclaimed. It's all about control of assets. Because of this obfuscation, it's really hard to tell how much the super-rich actually own, how much they legitimately control, and how much they BS their way into exerting control by creating the illusion that they own/control it, even when they do not.

Of course, anyone who has debt (mortgage, student loan, car note) has the same problem of financial vs. perceived status. But given the mystique around the word "billionaire," I suspect that anxiety about finding out one's actual financial status is something that afflicts the super-rich in particular.

Problem is, when you hand a billionaire the nuclear football, it actually becomes dangerous to everybody to question his billionaire status, especially if he has a fragile ego. Since there are three putative billionaires currently in the race for the Presidency (Trump, Steyer, Bloomberg) we really should think about this.

And getting back to the notion that this is the dementia talking, if Trump's freaked about his billionaire status, it kind of is. Trump's money troubles have been in front of the public for decades, and his supporters decidedly do not care.

243:

If you want to plot baroque retaliation scenarios, Iranian agents manage to spike the President's diet coke with MPTP, thereby paralyzing all Republican-controlled parts of the US government without actually killing anyone. And my guess is that, even if this happened, they still would invoke the 25th Amendment.

244:

In consequence, "Will the acquiring editor like this?" has a strong default answer of "no" in my head; "can I make a career out of this?" has a correspondingly strong "if you want to die in a ditch" answer.

Email me. (If you're open to suggestions.)

245:

Current news has a whistleblower leaking documents (on a laptop inherited from their father, a Deutsch Bank executive who died about 2 years ago) strongly indicating that DB acted as a conduit for very large bank loans to Trump -- in the double to triple digit millions of dollars -- from a Russian state-owned bank.

If true, there's your Moscow connection in a nutshell: Trump would be broke if Putin hadn't handed him a fortune (with strings attached).

If true this also makes Trump a foreign agent of influence and, depending on what his instructions were, quite possibly guilty of treason, although proving that one without Kremlin insider cooperation would be quite a reach.

Note the extremes to which the GRU have gone in recent years to silence defectors/dissidents with info about agents in the west. Intimidating everyone into silence to protect the status of Asset Number One, when AN1 is the POTUS, would be consistent with this picture.

(Adjusts tinfoil hat to a jaunty angle: winks at the camera.)

246:

Since this is after all a post on books and publishing, and I know Charlie’s been paying some attention to it...

I had nearly forgotten about the RWAs self-immolation from last week until this morning when NPR had a story about it; Racism Scandal In The Romance Writing Industry. And now a few hours later it seems someone opened the door and it’s gone full backdraft.

247:

In the strange are the ways of fate department, I just learned that the founder of the drone line that led to the MQ-9 that killed Suleimani was an Iraqi Jew who wound up in California via Israel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Karem

248:

In addition, Iran is under serious constraints (dealing with the USA) and knows that public support for a war is near zero.

Assuming that it is the Iranian public (and not the US public) that you are referring to, I can't help wondering if the Iranian government would like to escalate the conflict in order to get the war-nationalism boost to help quell the current protests against the regime.

Like Trump, they do not want to escalate into full-blown war, but some loud yelling, proxy conflicts and maybe a few skirmishes. But as others have mentioned it is a dangerous game that all to easily escalates into an actual war.

249:

See also William Gibson’s recent retweets about a Russian private jet, apparently carrying a Russian bank exec, possibly on their way to Mar-a-Lago.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1213332048573800453.html & https://mobile.twitter.com/ScottMStedman/status/1213378826291466240

250:

Graydon @178 said:Book layout really is an art; having someone do a skilled job is consequently not cheap. It's something I've thought about for when the Commonweal is finished and there might be enough readers that such a project could pay its own costs, but I'm honestly not hopeful of this.

Graydon,

I had resolved to take a sabbatical from posting during 2020, but so much misinformation about book layout and Print On Demand(POD) has been posted in the thread that I will do this one last post as if it was still 2019, and then fade away for the year.

  • POD means that the book is only printed when it is ordered. You do not buy thousands of copies to sit rotting in your garage. If any service offers to do that, and it only costs "thousands of bucks to do", run away. HA!

If you do everything DIY, it costs very little to get your book into Amazon.

If you don't want to do Amazon, look into IngramSpark.

Self-Publish Your Book with IngramSpark

If you don't want to deal directly with IngramSpark try BookBaby.

BookBaby

I do everything through KDP, which is Amazon, so it only costs me dollars to have the paper book be in the system. Whatever way you go it still costs very little to create the PDF for the book block and cover.

  • Use LibreOffice for book layout. That's what it was designed for.

The guy who developed LibreOffice had a design philosophy about DeskTopPublishing. He wrote a book about it. You can get a pdf of it at:

Designing with LibreOffice

  • Basically, all you need for book layout is LibreOffice, and use the Page Styles correctly.

I use LibreOffice for book layout, using the Page Styles, and use the Draw part of LibreOffice to assemble the cover. Then create the PDF for each using LibreOffice.

I use GIMP, and Inkscape, and occasionally Blender, for the art elements. All free graphic software.

There are also sites where you can get art for the cover, they usually charge a small fee depending on the use, $10 to $20 dollar range. If you use the licensed art, be sure to mention that at the start of your book where you list copyright stuff.

I do 6x9 book block, Garamond 12(don't use smaller than 11), single space.

  • Garamond already has the proper spacing built in, so do not pad out the spacing.

Half inch margins all around. Set the margins to "mirror margins". Adjust the top and bottom margins for your headers and footers. Adjust the "inside" margin depending on the thickness of your book. I use "cream" paper, that thickens the spine so I can have clear text on the spine.

  • Remember, the fancier you make the layout the harder it is to correct. Think playing whack-o-mole. Glug!

Look at what Dean Wesley Smith did with his Smith's Monthly magazine.

Look Inside! on the first issue and read the introduction where he explains what he is doing. Notice the two column layout. He used InDesign for that. The ebooks are linear. Notice in the copyright section he mentions where the cover photo came from.

Smith's Monthly #1 (Volume 1)

Look at the series he published.

Smith's Monthly Book Series (37 Books)

Look at the covers. He did all those issues spending only a little per issue. He did not spend thousands to produce each issue. He used InDesign for the book layout, but I find LibreOffice does well enough for novel layout. InDesign is only worth it if you are doing complex things like a magazine the way he did, and you can rent InDesign per month rather than buy it outright.

BTW, Chances are that you did not even read this far in the post, or bother to actually look at the links and do the work. Thus I am on sabbatical from posting the rest of 2020, because too many people simply ignore my Real World advice. HA!

Have fun.

251:

They could kill John Bolton, and maybe a couple other "Bomb, Bomb Iran" types. That might serve them best of all, particularly if they could kill a lot of John Bolton types without tipping their hands.

252:

This may well be true. It's worth also noting that similar stories were circulating in 2016, and I think I saw it in Talking Points Memo (I saw this latest story in the Daily Kos and decided not to circulate it here).

Again, it may be true, it may be election-year agitprop. It's hard to tell the veracity of it because this story only seems to pop up during election years, and for some reason, no one kept digging and reporting after 2017.

What does matter is that it's unlikely to sway things much, because most democrats probably already believe it, most Republicans do not, and the Independents either won't hear it or have already thought about it and factored it into their voting. And this kinda sucks like a walrus, as far as I'm concerned.

253:

I noted that above as Trump's motivation to "wag the dog." It should be noted that the accusation is currently unsubstantiated, but I strongly suspect that one could get legal discovery and/or a search warrant out of the accusation.

254:

Wait until after the US presidential election. THEN: c(1): If Trump is re-elected, do something that affects him personally -- e.g. massive damage to his brand (which associates with his ego, such as multiple simultaneous attacks on Trump properties around the world)

They wouldn’t necessarily need to attack them to hurt them. Mailing suspicious parcels, that ultimately turn out to be innocuous but clearly meant to seem suspicious, to his commercial properties would hurt “his brand”.

255:

I am considering self-publishing my book and I definitely appreciate the advice. In fact, I will be bookmarking your post immediately after hitting "Submit."

256:

I'd be thrilled if you made that advice to Graydon a public post here on the blog.

257:

I've been following the RWA thing here. It will likely get taught in PR and Law Schools as "What Not To Do" when having publicity trouble. The best summation I've found is here:

https://www.claireryanauthor.com/blog/2019/12/27/the-implosion-of-the-rwa

258:

Graydon @ 178:

"And it is a problem with the technology I hope someone will figure out a way to fix someday (SOON)."

It's very probably in the same category as a bra-fitting algorithm; the effort to develop the automation can't be supported by expected sales.

Book layout really is an art; having someone do a skilled job is consequently not cheap. It's something I've thought about for when the Commonweal is finished and there might be enough readers that such a project could pay its own costs, but I'm honestly not hopeful of this.

(As of some time in November of 2019, the then-extant four Commonweal books have sold something like 2100 copies. The people who like them do indeed like them, but those are not the sort of sales numbers which excite publishers or justify print runs.)

Yeah, it would have to be something developed by printers or small publishers and made available as a service to authors who just wanted or needed a small press run. Two thousand of your titles wouldn't be enough to support the business, but if they could get print-on-demand orders from lots of authors ... the way Blurb & Lulu do for photo books. I think that would be enough to sustain a market.

259:

It looks possible that Iranian short-term retaliation will take the shape of isolating the USA diplomatically by painting them as a rogue state. It is a very encouraging sign that they are trying this. They have a reasonably good set of facts/reality to do it with. (I'm generally a pacifist, to be clear.) Couple that with chatter about delayed retaliation plus deliberately bad com-sec. [1] Proxies will do what they do, but if Iran doesn't encourage retaliation (or better, discourages it, even selectively and publicly) they will be in a decent political position internationally vs the US.

[1] A member of a family (not mob afaik) I know described their "two year rule" for revenge; revenge for serious offenses is delayed for 2+ years. If they're still in the mood at the 2 year mark, the target doesn't expect revenge.

260:

Yes, I've been biting my lip, because I found using (gasp!) Word and (gasp!) KDP was the simplest way to publish, far easier than Kobo or Smashwords. It's annoying that the 500 megatonne baboon happens to also have the highest author payments, the easiest uploads, and the best sales, but there you are.

To be fair, my friends who publish plant identification books that require full color photos do not use KDP, they do the old-fashioned thing of publishing boxes of books and dealing with the resales. The reason they purportedly do this is that they want control over the colors, and the only way to do this is by doing one publishing run where they get to talk directly with a local printer and check the colors on the proof.

On the other hand, the author of the extremely well received Butterflies of San Diego publishes it on Lulu and is apparently happy with the results. I've met him, and he is, shall we say, extremely detail oriented (and a very nice guy. But as detail oriented as you'd expect from someone who's named butterfly species from specimens). On the third hand, I've noticed that you get different colored covers when you send the same files to Lulu and KDP, for what it's worth.

I think the bottom line is that, if you're simply publishing a story, yes, you can typeset it in Word, LibreOffice, or many other formats if it's text only (and this includes the index). If you're going to be silly enough to publish tables or pictures in an eBook, some services (SW) want you to pay extra for it. If you want to publish large illustrations, I'm not so sure, but based on very limited experience I'd go with Lulu.

The thing I'd very definitely advise is getting a book on copyright and fair use and reading the damned thing. My first draft of Hot Earth Dreams violated the fair use doctrine in several places, to the point where I could have been sued had it been published. This isn't an issue if you're publishing an old-fashioned story, but if you're quoting or reusing anything, it's worth checking to see if your use is legal, whether you have to get permission, and so on.

My current issue is determining whether it's legal to use someone else's conlang in a story, and especially whether it's legal to make artwork using someone else's script for that language, when the script was published online with a noncommercial CC license. It appears in both cases that it is (you can't copyright a text font, and in any case, if you use less than 50 words in order, it's fair use), but I'm going to check again before I try to sell it.

261:

Charlie & Private Iron Please don't Ratatosk went down very fast, after being "sightly" ill, apparently one he'd had the year before & recovered from ... I'm still agonising if I could/should have done something different, would it have made a difference. He was greatly loved. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

the UK's Foreign Secretary ... says the assassination was insanely dangerous brinksmanship THIS administratioon distancing itself from DT? Now there's a straw in the wind ... maybe they are aware, just for once, of UK public opinion - & also the backblast from Blair's "little adventure" is stil in memory.

CHarlie @ 246 Which suggests that Novichock in Salisbury may be relevant ... oh dear. Nonetheless, that info, as it percolates through will REALLY discredit DT outside of his insane "base". And ... that post on the RU - "private" jet heading to very close to Mar-a-Lago is ... very interesting. Come to pick him up, before the shit hits the afan, or come to give him some "prep" ( Like really serious blackmail ) as to what his instructions are, as the Manchurian Candidate?

262:

Damian @ 183:

“Looks like Scribus is a 32 bit Mac only application, which might be a bit of a problem going forward even before the apparently steep learning curve.”

Really? The once or twice I’ve used it was on Windows. Looks like there’s a download for pretty much everything but iOS:

https://www.scribus.net/downloads/stable-branch/

’m be surprised if it can’t handle imposition too. Learning curve - I vaguely remember the tool layout was a bit clunky, but it’s roughly the same visual metaphors as any other layout program (such as MS Publisher or Adobe InDesign).

The link provided led me to the 32 bit Mac version page that didn't suggest other versions were available, so I didn't really look any further.

Still leaves me with my other two concerns
     1. I'd still have to read the book on-screen to set it up for printing and/or
     2. if I did find someone who would do print-on-demand for me, I wouldn't be able to demonstrate I had the author's permission to reproduce his copyrighted work.

For that matter, just because an ePub is DRM free doesn't mean the author has given permission to reproduce his work in print and I DO try to respect other people's copyrights.

263:

Why not print the e-book out on both sides of ordinary A4 or letter-sized paper with a set of margins that essentially gets you an 8 1/2 by 5 1/2 piece of paper with one-inch margins on each side. Do it landscape style and take the (A4 or letter-sized) paper to Fedex-Kinkos and have them cut the extra paper off the left and right sides then bind it for you. It looks to me like a 3-inch margin on the left and right will work for a letter-sized sheet.

Obviously this will be imperfect, but I think it's a good quick-and-dirty solution, though you may need to experiment a little.

264:

Yeah, it would have to be something developed by printers or small publishers and made available as a service to authors who just wanted or needed a small press run.

The business model is definitely out there!

The hard part is not getting the printing done; it's having the skilled design to feed into the printing. That includes the book layout and the cover art, both of which do require specific skills and thus cost money for those as lack those skills.

265:

201: Scott, you don't understand McConnell's game at all, which is no secret, he's been quite public about it. McConnell unlike Trump is a smart politician.

Not call witnesses? Of course he'll call witnesses. First witnesses to be called will be Joe and Hunter Biden! His plan is to turn the impeachment inquiry into an impeachment of Joe Biden. Biden, either due to senility and stupidity or, more likely, because there really is sleazy stuff about him and Ukraine which would look very bad under oath, has preemptively stated that he would refuse to testify. Granting McConnell a delicious choice. Either he can subpoena him and have him tossed in jail if he defies the subpoena, or he can magnanimously let him get away with refusal to testify, and not have anyone else testify either. Either way he wins, Trump wins, and Biden looks like a crook and gets knocked out of contention for the Presidency.

Which is a strategic win for the Republicans, or at least they think it is. Being as according to the polls, Biden and Sanders are the two candidates who beat Trump, and Buttigieg always loses and Warren at best ties, the logical result would be Sanders as the Demo candidate. Redbaiting Sanders won't help Republicans, given all the stuff running around about how Trump is supposedly Putin's agent. And it certainly won't help Democratic rivals! So the Republican belief that Trump would win against Sanders is most certainly wrong, especially since this Iran thing has embarrassing fiasco written all over it.

266:

Why is Warren unpopular? APart from being female, of course .....

267:

218: The whole Trump tax return thing is a scam, which the Democrats want to do to make Trump look bad. But I don't think they actually want them released, which would just make it a nine day wonder to be forgotten about, instead of a steady drip drip.

If the Democrats actually wanted them released, nothing would be easier. Whether or not there is a "deep state conspiracy" vs. Trump, obviously there are plenty of people in the CIA and FBI who hate Trump with a passion, whether for good reasons or bad. Nothing would be easier for them than getting hold of them and leaking them anonymously. Wikileaks would love to publish them, to get out from under the accusation that they are pro-Trump.

268:

Patriarchal white supremacy in the US is referred to as "capitalism".

Warren is brilliant and ruthless and likely to be effective; Warren is also inherently not in favour of "capitalism".

Which means the entire status quo, including most of the democratic party's status quo, opposes her candidacy. If the white women ever defect in significant numbers, that's it, it's over; the Slaver faction has entirely lost. All US politics for the last forty-some years have been about the Slaver faction trying to advance its interests. (Which is where the rising inequality comes from; enough inequality and there's no possibility of effective opposition from outside the ruling class.)

Bernie says nice things but Bernie is very, very white and would not -- even presuming he's still alive then -- significantly affect the status quo. Warren likely would, and since the status quo is certainly doomed -- climate change is going to result in no more fossil carbon extraction one way or another; the US is the Oil Empire -- it's having a major round of denying facts which is why US politics looks like that.

269:

267 She isn't unpopular, she is just less popular than Biden and Sanders, and more popular than Trump or Buttigieg. Her electoral difficulties are because she is perceived as the candidate of progressive suburbia, whereas Sanders and even Biden are seen as having more of the common touch, with more appeal to the lower classes, of whom nowadays there are far more of in America than middle class people. Things have gotten so bad in the "heartland" that for working class folk, those who don't like Sanders because he is a socialist are by now outnumbered by those who like him because he says he is one. Especially among the youth. In the last election, there were a large number of Sanders voters in the primaries who stayed home or even voted for Trump. Voters for whom the two choices are Trump and Sanders are not an uncommon phenomenon.

270:

" If Trump is re-elected, do something that affects him personally -- e.g. massive damage to his brand (which associates with his ego, such as multiple simultaneous attacks on Trump properties around the world) or his children"

If Trump is re-elected, he (and the GOP) would be nigh invulnerable to any domestic political event.

And he'd pull so much money in from emoluments that he could write off every legal and semi-legal source of income.

271:

Unholyguy @ 184: Well so far they’ve gotten away with killing him, Iran hasn’t done shit other then threaten, Congress hasn’t done shit other then whine and the rest of the world seems to be turning a blind eye as well

They even did another strike this morning to emphasize how little of a shit they give about what anyone thinks or who scared they are of Iran

In what way is that incompetence?

So far seems to be going swimmingly for the Donald, unless he really did wanted a greater response and an actual war

I've been giving this some thought and a little bit of study since the subject came up here.

So lets start with Trumpolini's competence or lack thereof:

Trump is notoriously lackadaisical with regard to his National Security Briefings & I don't think anyone with an ounce of intelligence (in both senses of the word) believes that this is HIS plan. Trump was blabber-mouthing last week to anyone he could buttonhole down at Mar-a-Lago about a "big strike" against Iran in retaliation for Kata'ib Hezbollah's attack on the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad. We're probably lucky he didn't have a meeting with Kislyak in the Oval Office before the strike took place or Soleimani would have likely been forewarned.

But there's no telling if this was the "big strike" he was blabber-mouthing about or not. Trumpolini is an extreme opportunist, quick to take credit for other people's work any time he perceives a success (and equally quick to shift blame onto others when it turns out he's fucked up).

All his crowing about the strike on Twitter afterwards shows, In My Not So Damn Humble Opinion, poor judgement that overwhelmingly demonstrates his lack of competence (as if we needed further demonstration).

I have questions about what really happened. The U.S. and Iran have a fraught history - a dispute going back 40 years - about the sanctity of Diplomatic Missions, the security of Embassies and the safety of Embassy Personnel, so that's the background against which this is playing out.

Kata'ib Hezbollah is one of Iran's proxy militias in Iraq. They have been attacking "coalition forces" (which these days appears to consist of the Iraqi Army and their U.S. support - including U.S. military personnel plus some Iraqi Kurdish militias in northeastern Iraq) during the war against Da'esh/ISIL/ISIS in both Iraq & Syria and afterwards.

27 December 2019, Kata'ib Hezbollah fired 30 some rockets into the "K1" airbase (located NW of the mostly Kurdish city of Kirkuk) killing one American civilian contractor and wounding several American Soldiers along with members of the Iraqi military.

29 December 2019, in retaliation for that rocket attack (the 11th rocket attack in 2019 against bases in Iraq & Syria where U.S. service members are located) the U.S. struck at five Kata'ib Hezbollah bases (3 in Iraq, 2 in Syria). The bases targeted were weapons storage facilities and C3I facilities used by Kata’ib Hezbollah to target US forces.

31 December 2019, Kata'ib Hezbollah stormed the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad managing to breach the outer perimeter at the ECP. It should be noted that Iraqi "security forces" stood aside while the mob attacked the U.S. Embassy.

3 January 2020, subsequently, 3 days after the Embassy attack, Maj General Qasem Soleimani, commander of Iran's Revolutionary Guard Quds Force which sponsors the various Hezbollah militias in Iraq, Syria and Lebanon (and I don't know where else ... but I suspect their hands are dirty in Libya, Somalia & Egypt as well) shows up at Baghdad International Airport and gets into a convoy headed who knows where, to confer with who knows who, and who knows what marching orders for them he might have been carrying.

The commander of Kata'ib Hezbollah, Abu Mahdi al-Muhandis, was killed in the same strike. I think it's reasonable to question who was the primary target and who might have been "Collateral Damage" ...

The Defense Department said Thursday that Soleimani had "orchestrated attacks on coalition bases in Iraq over the last several months - including the attack on December 27th - culminating in the death and wounding of additional American and Iraqi personnel." The Iranian general also approved the attacks on the U.S. Embassy, the Pentagon said.
          USA Today

So, here's the nut for me ... General Qasem Soleimani was a self-proclaimed enemy belligerent, responsible for numerous attacks on U.S. personnel & for the attack on the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad just days before he arrived. He was also an enemy belligerent IN UNIFORM and as such was a legitimate MILITARY target, and the timing strongly suggests he was engaged in belligerent activities against the U.S. at the time he was killed.

You can argue all you want about whether it was a stupid idea politically [**] to target him, but I'm convinced that morally & ethically it was a legitimate military operation, within the laws of war, against someone who was actively making war on the United States at the time he was killed.

This was not a targeted assassination of some innocent. He was making war on the United States, had declared his intention to make war on the United States and had committed overt acts in pursuit of making war on the United States.

[**] I certainly believe Trumpolini's handling of the announcement was stupidity exemplified.

272:

Robert van der Heide @ 185: China’s approach to the trade war Trump started indicates they do: they’ve been systematically making moves that apply pain to industries in states that went Trump.

Is there any reason to assume Iran’s political class is less competent?

It's a theocracy. You're not allowed to be part of the political class unless the Mullah's approve. They're hide-bound, reactionary religious fundamentalists.

Is there any reason to believe they'd be any less closed off to anything in reality that contradicts what their Imams tell them to believe than are our own hidebound, reactionary religious fundamentalists willing to question what the preachers tell them?

273:

Bill Arnold @ 187:

China’s approach has had no measurable impact on trumps approval numbers

Is this based on an analysis of statewide polls?

That wasn't the question ... or the answer. The question was:

Do you think anyone in the power structure in Iran (or China) makes a distinction between what Donald Trump does in pursuit of his own selfish interests and what is in the interest of the "United States"?

... leaving aside entirely the fantastical idea that DJT might give a shit about U.S. "interests" or anyone's interests other than his own.

274:

Graydon @ 189: What we're actually going to get? It depends on how the faction fights settle out.

Right now there are at least four.

There's one going on in Iran on the Revolutionary Guard side; who is in charge now?

I've seen at least one analysis piece that suggests the U.S. might have done Iran a favor; that Soleimani was not a competent commander & had been promoted past his level of competence because of his political connections.

The guy who stepped into his shoes, so to speak, is more competent - a better strategist & tactician than Soleimani was - and bears watching.

275:

_Moz_ @ 198:

without the necessary continuous planning and stable funding

Speaking of which, didn't they just cut current recruits off from long-term medical care? I read that they get two years after discharge now, and cash for long-term injuries rather than support.

I'm not saying that's an attempt to stop smart people joining the military, I don't think there's that level of thought gone into the change. But I do think it's going to change the calculation for a lot of people because now they have to budget on buying health insurance post-service as part of the cost of serving. I wonder if some cunning weasel will decide to sell such a package just to make clear the value of what's been taken away?

Don't know if that's something that happened recently to the U.K. military. I only know about the U.S. military.

It was done to us in 2004 (while I was overseas in Iraq) when Cheney/Bush realized that the VA providing the standard of post war care that was put in place for WW2 veterans and continued up through the beginning of the Iraq war was going to cost Trillions and trillions (forgive me Carl Sagan for I have sinned) of dollars and threatened to expose the folly of their tax cut agenda (the dumb idea that you can cut taxes for the people who have all the money and it will somehow magically balance the budget - Reaganomics on steroids). So they cut the benefits - retroactively for anyone who served in Iraq mid 2004 or later.

If you're Reserve or National Guard, you get two years of medical from the VA after your REFRAD (RElease FRom Active Duty). Of course, for a while there, you'd probably be BACK IN IRAQ by then, so your two years would start all over again at the end of your subsequent tour. If you're active military, you get two years VA medical after your ETS (End Term of Service). I don't think there's any cash payout if you suffer from long-term service connected injury. They just kick your ass out because you can no longer perform your duties and you get BUPKIS! Not even a reach around.

AFAIK, the Obama administration restored none of the cuts and for damn sure Trumpolini has not.

I have a particular beef with this because I had already EARNED VA medical care FOR LIFE under the old rules years before I was sent to Iraq. I had 29 "good years" at the time. A "good year" is what qualifies you for retirement benefits. Twenty are required for retirement benefits. I retired with 32.

The VA is dunning me all the time over my "medical bills". They don't take Medicare and they don't take Tricare for Life.

Every once in a while I get a letter from the US Treasury telling me they're going to deduct what the VA says I own them from my Social Security. Before I started drawing Social Security they took it out of my retired pay from the Army.

276:

Why is Warren unpopular? APart from being female, of course ..... Graydon's answer @ 269 is good. (FWIW I like Warren. Not least because she is intelligent and can speak extemporaneously in whole coherent paragraphs, unlike the current POTUS. And she can write.) I'll add: - Yes, misogyny. But note that Hillary Clinton won the US popular vote by a wide margin in 2016. And Warren is popular, just not the front runner. - Warren's support among black women is weak. Not sure why, but she hasn't made enough effort to gain their support. - Her policy proposals have made enemies among the very wealthy (wealth tax), financial services, the US healthcare industry (medicare for all). These are enemies ... with money. Which in US law, is equivalent to protected "speech". (Bernie Sanders is not seen as a credible threat by them.) Since these are a very heavy lift to actually enact as law in the US, monied interests are being mostly silly to worry about them. - There have been attacks on her, some of them influence ops. Some of it but certainly not all is from the Bernie Sanders camp. (The attacks on Kamala Harris were worse, though, and some appear to not have been US-based.) - Bloomberg's entering into the race was mostly about deflating Warren's popularity numbers, IMO. (Have no evidence for that, FWIW.) - She's not a natural political talent. Her political skills are improving but she still makes mistakes. (e.g. her timing for announcing support for Medicare for All was poor, and her partial walkback looked silly.) She looks rather good in meetings where she's the speaker or taking and answering questions.

277:

And the saga continues, Trump tweets he has a gun pointed at Iran’s head and to just please pretty please give him the excuse to pull the trigger

278:

Do you think anyone in the power structure in Iran (or China) makes a distinction between what Donald Trump does in pursuit of his own selfish interests and what is in the interest of the "United States"? Yes, I do. They'd be stupid not to, and they are not stupid. First, Trump has made it abundantly clear that a change in the POTUS can have significant effects to things that are controlled by the POTUS, like treaties. (e.g. the JCPOA, or the TPP or the INF treaty) China's and Iran's political calculations have to consider whether or not DJT is reelected, and thus whether or not to try to nudge the US in one direction or the other (and how). Second, Trump can be influenced by tempting and/or threatening and/or satisfying his selfish interests. That includes his ego.

279:

paws4thot @ 214: Add to this that "some people" have explicitly stated buy signals for a dead tree edition, and an active dislike of e-readers. You're certainly sending us a "don't buy my stuff because you also have to buy hardware you don't want" message.

I don't know about the new hardware angle. I think I saw PDF files among the ePub options & I read them all the time when I have to. It's just that I'm a stubborn ol' Luddite and I don't have to when I'm reading for leisure. So I don't.

280:

277: As for Harris, speaking as a Californian let me tell you that all the bad things so well and effectively said vs. Harris by the politically late and unlamented Tulsi were 100% accurate, which is why she was unable to answer effectively. Her being driven out of the race was a joy to all Calif. progressives. And Warren is just as weak among black men as women. Sanders's appeal to nonwhites is weak, but at least he is not perceived as a white suburbanite. BTW,somebody said that Warren isn't into capitalism. Not true. She hasn't emphasized this, as there's been a quiet agreement between the two of them to be allies against everyone else and not criticize each other, but on a number of occasions she has said that she, unlike Sanders, believes in capitalism. Not that Sanders is a socialist either really. He's an FDR Democrat who believes in New Deal social welfare measures, which is enough for your average American to believe him when he calls himself a socialist.

281:

And the saga continues, Trump tweets he has a gun pointed at Iran’s head and to just please pretty please give him the excuse to pull the trigger That tweet thread is fairly belligerent. Not entirely clear what he means by this (bold): ...Iran itself, WILL BE HIT VERY FAST AND VERY HARD. The USA wants no more threats!

282:

Nile @ 215: Successive Republican Presidents have installed a highly effective passive defence against assassination: the automatic succession of the Presidency to dangerously-stupid or psychopathic Vice-president.

The Ayatollah and the Revolutionary Council do not want Mike Pence in the White House.

For the general good, and for our peace of mind, I choose not to speculate as to who or what would be the 'passive-defence VP' for Pence.

That only works for so long as Mike Pence is perceived to be a bigger whack-job than Trumpolini. I think we're rapidly moving into the stage where Pence is viewed as the lesser evil.

283:

Sanders's appeal to nonwhites is weak, but at least he is not perceived as a white suburbanite. OK, I'll let this rest else Charlie will put us in timeout. :-)

284:

paws4thot @ 217: Bozo? He does meet the main qualification for the job of being a "native-born USian".

Didn't he renounce his American citizenship to run for Parliament? Don't know if he'd be able to get it back and I doubt American voters would accept him for having once renounced it even if he could get it back. Besides, the U.S. and U.K. have reciprocal extradition treaties, so he couldn't hide out here even if he wanted to.

285:

The House of Hohenzollern is still there, still rich, still owns castles; if you can start the Great War and keep your money and property, there's nothing at all you can do under one construction of capitalism that means you can't keep the loot. Since the Exxon execs who made the conscious decision that, sure, I want profit more than I want to avoid killing millions are finding out that, gee, I might still be alive when this gets to be a really obvious issue, there's immense pressure for PWS Keep The Loot However Gotten capitalism. This is the "capitalism" of the Republican Party; it's a reactionary aristocratic philosophy of permanent dominance much more than it's a coherent economic platform.

Warrens construction of capitalism isn't that one. It's closer to the "innovation good" American mythologizing. It involves at least some notion of enforced responsibility for corporate actions.

It's a bit like calling Bernie a socialist; Bernie is in no way a socialist. Bernie thinks you shouldn't have to be rich, just white, to have the government do nice things for you. (This is basically the 1950s consensus position in US politics.)

286:

PrivateIron @ 233: On the subject of depressing Januaries: 20 month (month, not year) orange/butterscotch tabby: smart, athletic, social, beautiful orange eyes, fearless, two six month old minions ready to do his bidding at the snap of a paw: vicious lymphoma. 1 week to six months based on response to massive steroid injections, leaning heavily to the lower time. I've never had a pet in living death before; they either come back from the vet right as rain or they don't come back. So we're in this whole awkward, it's either Tuesday or your funeral situation. And while a cat's life isn't a global crisis, I feel like I could sum up our general situation the same way.

And uh, Happy New Year.

Had one die from FLV about 45 years ago. Never had an outdoor cat since then. And they're still all vaccinated against it anyway. They do have a way. They get into your lap and then they get under your skin and right into your heart. Sorry for your loss, but I do understand your pain.

287:

Add to this that "some people" have explicitly stated buy signals for a dead tree edition, and an active dislike of e-readers. You're certainly sending us a "don't buy my stuff because you also have to buy hardware you don't want" message.

Cost of production for ebooks is low. I more or less break even.

Cost of production for paper is higher -- roughly 10 to 20 USD per quality POD hardcover, depending on page count -- and given expected less-then-break-even sales (since there's "a cover" and "design" costs involved), insisting on paper is functionally asking me to give you money to read the book.

I do want people to read the book, but not that much.

288:

Doesn't matter, though; the US has rocketed way too many weddings to claim to follow the laws of war.

POTUS just pardoned somebody who shot Iraqi children for fun. Trump just threatened destruction of cultural sites. War crimes are US policy. (Since Obama ordered some of those drone strikes, a bipartisan and consistent policy.)

It's terrible policy, but it's there, so "legit military target" isn't an effective or credible response. Especially not in Iraq, which was subject to the US waging aggressive war in the administration of Bush fils.

289:

David Duke ... Angry racists are Trump's core demographic;

Sorry but David Duke is, well, if all of HIS supporters walked away from DT, it wouldn't matter in the least. Duke is, to put it mildly, waaaaaaaaaay out on the edge.

And even if it did matter, where would they go?

290:

Is it me or did this blog get a bad case of the "slows" a few days ago?

Now I did travel 1000 miles about then so maybe it is the ISP here. But aside from this web site things appear to be normal speed.

291:

Good short story by ctrlcreep (who does microfiction on twitter using that name). It's Laundryverse-adjacent. Host Negotiations (Dec 29, 2019) Teasers: For society's well of outcasts was deep indeed, and in its waters slept those with the capacities necessary for our work: bargain-craft with the dead, the undead, with real and potential gods. ... We are only human, yet we pitch ourselves against beings that pluck the threads that weave the world, as advocates for those who would broker contracts with invisible power. We are humanity’s lawyers to the supernatural. ... The Book, which I was needed to interpret, recorded the family’s past and future dealings with a demon known as Caput Larvae. The physical particulars of this demon were unimportant; what was necessary was to become intimate with the brain that was alive in the text, in this monolithic negotiation and renegotiation of a contract outside of time.

(The story made me chuckle for a reason that might only be clear to the author.)

292:

but it is 100% able to destroy it as a state, and keep it this way. And a bunch of Afghanistanesque territories won't be able to sustain a global terrorism campaign against the USA.

The "state" may not but a few million people who now have very deep grudges likely will.

OBL did what he did with his family's money.

293:

Bozo only renounced his US citizenship after he got landed with a Capital Gains Tax bill from the IRS, and I think that was after his first stint as an MP. The UK doesn’t care about dual citizenship so there was no reason for him to renounce just to stand for election.

If he could get his US citizenship back, don’t forget he’d also need to reside in the US for fourteen years to qualify to run for POTUS.

294:

and lamenting the lack of consumer level software that can automagically handle "imposition" for someone like me who hates reading books on a screen.

I may have a copy of Page Garden somewhere. And as it would take almost any text file you threw at it and make it into nice pages of things it would likely do this for you.

But I bought it back in 89 and it would require some serious digging to find it just now.

Oh, yeah. Runs on DOS.

295:

China’s approach has had no measurable impact on trumps approval numbers

Ah, yes it has. Total population have not flipped but subsets of the groups have.

NPR started interviewing people from DT country a few years ago. Back then they were 100% behind him. Now not so much. And they are interviewing the same people that were on the air at the beginning.

No tidal ways but some are not happy.

But that may not be enough for them to for for EW. But they might toss out their current Senator or Congressman.

296:

OTOH your stated intent is to sell me your book, not to sell me hardware I don't want and don't like using,

297:

That sounds about right, and makes with my implied intent...

298:

such as multiple simultaneous attacks on Trump properties around the world) or his children

Like tripping fire alarms and bomb threats that are not real against his properties.

Real pocketbook hurt but no shooting involved.

299:

Charlie Stross @ 246: Current news has a whistleblower leaking documents (on a laptop inherited from their father, a Deutsch Bank executive who died about 2 years ago) strongly indicating that DB acted as a conduit for very large bank loans to Trump -- in the double to triple digit millions of dollars -- from a Russian state-owned bank.

If true, there's your Moscow connection in a nutshell: Trump would be broke if Putin hadn't handed him a fortune (with strings attached).

If true this also makes Trump a foreign agent of influence and, depending on what his instructions were, quite possibly guilty of treason, although proving that one without Kremlin insider cooperation would be quite a reach.

Note the extremes to which the GRU have gone in recent years to silence defectors/dissidents with info about agents in the west. Intimidating everyone into silence to protect the status of Asset Number One, when AN1 is the POTUS, would be consistent with this picture.

(Adjusts tinfoil hat to a jaunty angle: winks at the camera.)

None of that really rates a tinfoil hat. Which is good, because I haven't been able to find REAL tinfoil for a long, long time and aluminum foil is really not an adequate substitute.

It was well known that Trump's real estate "empire" relied on cash infusions from the Russian Mafiya long before he considered sliding down the escalator at Trumpolini Tower in 2015. I've always believed what Trump is hiding behind his tax returns are financial shenanigans.

The only thing new in the leaked whistleblower account is evidence of the direct link to Moscow.

It could be Treason under the U.S. Constitutional definition, but I agree they'll never get the two required witnesses to the same overt act to testify. I doubt they could even prove there was a quid pro quo behind the loans. Their only hope is that Trumpolini is stupid enough to confess "in open Court".

Maybe Putin is just a real savvy investor who felt propping up Deutsch Bank was the best place to park his money. Does Germany have FDIC insurance?

JamesPadraicR @ 250: See also William Gibson’s recent retweets about a Russian private jet, apparently carrying a Russian bank exec, possibly on their way to Mar-a-Lago.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1213332048573800453.html
&
https://mobile.twitter.com/ScottMStedman/status/1213378826291466240

Hmmmm? Interesting routing. I wonder if they were trying to hide something?

300:

BTW, one thing nobody gets is just how stupid this was in Iranian politics. He was the most popular politician in Iran, a war hero with an 83% poll approval rating with an image of being a man of the people who supports the poor, unlike all those rich hypocritical mullahs people have been demonstrating against. If Trump's objective was to restore the popularity of the Iranian regime with the people of Iran, and Iraq too for that matter, that was achieved. And, it is uncustomary to do reprisals until after the three days of national mourning are over. That would be tomorrow I think.

The mullahs would like I am sure to limit reprisals to just using this to maneuver the US out of Iraq, but popular opinion won't let them. There will probably be missile strikes on US bases in Iraq, if they don't leave right away. Or maybe on the US embassy.

301:

Troutwaxer @ 252: They could kill John Bolton, and maybe a couple other "Bomb, Bomb Iran" types. That might serve them best of all, particularly if they could kill a lot of John Bolton types without tipping their hands.

Nooooooooo! Not John Bolton. Think of that magnificent mustache.

Besides the idea is to kill only the competent ones and leave the nincompoops in place.

302:

They could go for recording Trmp's phone calls, and then threatening to release the recordings to the House committees (Intelligence, in particular) that are handling impeachment. Trmp's properties would be another reasonable target - just make the threats, and watch people stop booking rooms or tee-times. (I understand that security at them is not particularly good.)

303:

Greg Tingey @ 267: Why is Warren unpopular? APart from being female, of course ...

They're afraid of her. If some of her proposed financial reforms were enacted it could cost them money.

304:

It's the 1924 film version, not the original.

305:

I took mine for the final ride when I found she'd lost four pounds - half her normal body weight - over two months, and was little more than skin and bones, sitting hunched over like she was in pain. Don't know what the cause was, but I scritched her all the way down (when the sedative took effect, she fell over onto my hand). That was 8 years ago, and I still miss my furry fiend. (That's her as my avatar.)

306:

David L @ 295:

and lamenting the lack of consumer level software that can automagically handle "imposition" for someone like me who hates reading books on a screen.

I may have a copy of Page Garden somewhere. And as it would take almost any text file you threw at it and make it into nice pages of things it would likely do this for you.

But I bought it back in 89 and it would require some serious digging to find it just now.

Oh, yeah. Runs on DOS.

Would IBM PC-DOS 7.0 work? I think I've still got a copy of that on a bootable CD-ROM somewhere around here. Am I also going to have to dig out my old dot-matrix printer?

307:

I found a copy of Pagemaker in a to-be-recycled bin at work. So of course I snagged it. If it's DOS, I can run it. (There's also a DOS version of Excel. That's a lesser problem.) ...Recycling was interesting: books, even, went into the bins. I got some that I'd never have found in a store.

308:

DR DOS 8.0 on mine. And I have my father's old NEC Pinwriter - wide-carriage. With about 11 unused ribbon cartridges. (Ghu knows what shape they're in. He died in 1994.)

309:

Just to be clear. It is Page Garden, NOT PageMaker.

It ran on DOS. It knew about lasers.

You fed it a text file with either embedded or as separate control file. I forget which. It was all text based. Sort of like LaTex but different.

But you could create books with it.

310:

There are so many "legitimate military targets" on the US side that saying they might stick to those doesn't narrow it down much at all, especially if they also use the US "anyone near a target is a target" for values of "near" that make astronomers look precise (the Earth is 'near' the Sun, for example).

I think they might actually go for some kind of cunning plan, and the good news is that there are a lot of those that work even when everyone knows about them. One step past "visit a Trump property, pull the fire alarm, run" would be ...drop a stink-bomb, run. Similar thing but more cleanup required.

They could equally just step up from helping freedom fighters in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine etc to helping similar folk in the USA. Not providing weapons, obviously, but training and target suggestions. I'm thinking specifically of meme wars - rather than "Hillary is a bad person" start spamming out "here's why you should shoot up {vaguely plausible target}" type stuff. A few months of "Trump-related business is distributing Fentanyl" or whatever could noticeably increase the mass shooting rate in the US. Or do an FBI-style "make your own terrorist" operation but arrange to have a real bomb that really blows up. For extra points use real FBI agents to do 90% of the work. (actually, for real bonus points hack the FBI and use their real "make our own terrorist" operations)

311:

You could see if it runs under FreeDOS, since that supports modern hardware. Or you could use one of the many virtualisation programs and run it inside that. I've got programs that use both, and for a one-off booting into FreeDOS is probably easier.

(FreeDOS is used for stuff like MemCheck86 that want unrestricted direct access to the hardware)

312:

Actually, using drones to drop tear gas grenades near the air conditioning intakes of skyscrapers would also be fun. If you put the instructions on the internet and released a couple of videos I'm sure there would be copycat attacks.

313:

My bet is that they'll work with (lean on) the government of Iraq to expel US forces from the country.

Already in progress:

White House Defiant as Iraq threatens to expel US troops, al Monitor

Pressure mounts to kick US troops out, Military Times

Rival Leaders Call for US Troop Expulsion in Rare Show of Unity, NY Times

Residents of the Middle East don't agree on much but this week everyone is pissed off at Donald Trump.

314:

Of course [McConnell]'ll call witnesses. First witnesses to be called will be Joe and Hunter Biden! His plan is to turn the impeachment inquiry into an impeachment of Joe Biden. Biden, either due to senility and stupidity or, more likely, because there really is sleazy stuff about him and Ukraine which would look very bad under oath, has preemptively stated that he would refuse to testify.

Have you been watching Fox News?

Biden declined on the grounds that the media would spend weeks howling about him and ignoring Trump, exactly as you imagine McConnell to want, and clarified he would testify if subpoenaed.

This has not been universally welcomed; the NY Times has an editorial saying Biden should demand to testify.

315:

... it is uncustomary to do reprisals until after the three days of national mourning are over ...

Some people are getting ahead of the competition.

The Iraqi government can be expected to drop well considered and effective revenge on Trump when he's vulnerable. The various militia groups, made up of violent wingnuts and young hotheads anyway, are taking it out on whoever is around.

316:

JH Wikileaks are not "pro-Trump" except in that they are running at Putin's commands

Graydon Or, the current-US-version of "capitalism" ( i.e. without any regulation of any siginificant sort ) ... careful with definitions... Warren as Bernie's Veep?

I note that DT is now openly boasting of being the playground bully, & "we can hit you anywhere, we've got a list of targets & whaddy going to do?" ( Unholy guy @ 278) - & of course, if no excuse appears, he'll simply manufacture one, won't he? Iran's continued existence is a "threat" to DT & his backers, of course. Where/how does Putin benefit from all of this, I wonder? I also note that Raab has been ordered by BOZO to reverse ferret & crawl up Trump's arse ....

JBS @ 272:Unpleasant, but, you may have a "legal" point. Whether it's moral or sensible is another story. @ 273: Being a reactionary theocrat does not exclude military or political competence, unfortunately - ask Old Noll Cromwell ....

JH @ 301 Kill a US General in Saudi, or better still, Yemen

317:

Don't know if that's something that happened recently to the U.K. military. I only know about the U.S. military. (Cuts to VA medical benefits.)

It's not something that would be even relevant in the UK; we have the NHS (although the Tories are doing their best to privatise the back end of it). Martin can probably provide additional information on post-deployment rehab and disability assistance, but AIUI veterans are in the same basket as everybody else, i.e. free healthcare (modulo some important tweaks: a prescription tax in England -- flat rate per item, with an annual ceiling: similar for basic dentistry -- and you pay for glasses). The gotcha is that due to chronic underfunding (thanks, Tories!) mental health services are in perpetual crisis, so people who joined up at 18, served for years (so no non-institutional living skills) and sustained mental injuries in service (e.g. PTSD) simply don't get the support they need and end up homeless/on the street.

318:

Cost of production for paper is higher -- roughly 10 to 20 USD per quality POD hardcover, depending on page count

Cost for a book block, perfect bound, trade or mass market paperback, is about 50-70 cents. Cover maybe adds the same on top. For a saddle-stitched hardcover it's maybe $1.50-2.50, plus up to $1 for the cover wrap-around (if you pile on extras like embossing and hot-foil).

Note that this is for traditional publishers using a modern web-offset printing press that chows down on a pre-imposed PDF file, ink, and paper. The UK is ahead of the US industry in terms of short runs: I know for a fact that Orbit (Hachette, that is) can profitably run the presses for a measly 250 extra hardcover copies which are then sold via conventional retail channels (hint: the booksellers take 50-60% of the cover price, which is about £12).

POD is the equivalent of running off a photocopy, hence the ridiculously steep price.

Meanwhile, depending on genre and age cohort, 30-70% of readers stubbornly insist on holding a lump of paper in their hands, and buy their books in bricks-n-mortar shops that stubbornly insist on not going bust.

This is why there's still a niche (hint: irony) for trad publishers, whose specialty is wringing economies of scale out of the supply chain and then marketing the hell out of their product, while the author lies back with mouth open for them to stuff banknotes in via a feeding tube provided (and held) by their agent.

319: 318 - True this, with the further note that, if you are domiciled in Scotland or Wales, as well as an exemption from Prescription Tax, you are also entitled to free eye examinations by a qualified ophthalmologist and to free eyewear if you require it for VDU work (Charlie will know this for sure, but I think authors qualify). 319 - I know people who make at least a paper profit on this sort of run, partly by handling their own cover art and having pro bono beta readers.
320:

Graydon,

Just curious? Why don't you publish your books on Smashwords? It doesn't cost anything and I know somebody who had a much better result through them than through Amazon. With your consent they will distribute your books to other channels for you.

321:

Maybe stop trying to be hlepful (inappropriately helpful)?

Dogpiling Graydon with well-intentioned advice here is an inappropriate use of this comment thread and I think I'm going to stop doing it and encourage everyone else to do likewise.

322:

Charlie noted: "If true this also makes Trump a foreign agent of influence and, depending on what his instructions were, quite possibly guilty of treason, although proving that one without Kremlin insider cooperation would be quite a reach."

That and the whole "giving aid and comfort to an enemy of the state" (i.e., Russia), which seems an open and shut case. But I'm told by an American who seems credible that in the U.S., treason only applies in the legal context of a declared war, and that this is why the Democrats haven't attempted to try Trump for treason.

This is far outside my area of expertise, so confirmation would be welcomed.

323:

American law very specifically defines the crime of treason; many people have done things they shouldn't but have not committed treason under the exact legal definition.

The American citizenry had to look up the text of the law and discuss this back in 2016 when some damn lunatic went on television and asked Russia to commit espionage against a cabinet member. That's in pretty poor taste but after hashing out the various possible legal problems it turns out not to be technically illegal.

Stupid, yes. Disloyal to the country (if you're American), yes. Inciting disorder, sure. Reasonable cause for the FBI to have a stern talk with someone, I'd say so. But not, under the exact letter of the law, treasonous or even illegal.

324:

I like the idea of using drones loaded with weedkiller to draw an Iranian flag on Trump's golf courses. Or even better, if you can handle the registration, use a combination of weedkiller, fertiliser and ??something that makes plants produce loads of carotenoids?? to do a full three-colour version.

Virtualisation thingies... where DOS is concerned they are not all equal because of the tendency of DOS programs to do nasty things. I frequently use PSPICE 5.0 for DOS because I've never got round to replicating its lovely interface for ngspice/Linux, but it was a pain in the arse figuring out how to run it. Nothing worked. The only thing I could find that could both pretend sufficiently convincingly to be a graphics card it knew about, and handle its memory extender without crashing, was QEMU, and only then with some gaffer tape and string in the source code of its graphics department.

325:

Nope, it's a lot worse than I realized.

The link above is a drone/helicopter view of Suleimani's funeral procession in Ahvaz. Yes, he was the head of the Revolutionary Guards. He was also a war hero and immensely popular -- the single Iranian political figure with the highest public approval rating, somewhere north of 80%. Hence the gigantic procession: I'm guessing the crowd is somewhere in the fractional-to-full-integer millions there.

It's like Trump assassinated the Iranian equivalent of Dwight D. Eisenhower or Winston Churchill or something. (Yes, I know both of them were unpopular with the Other Side's supporters, that Eisenhower green-lit the coup against Mossadegh that overthrew democracy in Iran, and Churchill was a proximate-genocidal imperialist asshat: the point is, even their opponents would concede they were significant figures and widely perceived as war heroes. It's the correct magnitude for this cock-up.)

326:

Biden was VP and would have been briefed on everything Obama knew about Trump. I suspect his reluctance to testify is of the "please don't throw me in the briar patch" variety.

327:

What worries me is that Trump is basically saying that ANY response from Iran will be regarded as a "legitimate" ( i.e. lying & flimsily at that ) to knock off/out any number of sites ( & people? ) inside Iran. And, of course "Whddya going to do about it?" I forseee a lot of Hizbollah etc action going down & Iran saying "nuffink to do wiv us, mate" I hate to say it, but there IS a strategy behind DT's actions - it's his re-elction campaign AND a distraction from his domestic "troubles". How doews this ties in to him taking orders from Putin / that aircarft noted yesterday & the Deutsche Bank monies, I know not

328:

Trump is a moral void. There is absolutely no part of his character that says "this is wrong" about him; other people not submitting, yes, but anything he chooses to do is right.

Trump is acting out of fear, and fear makes you stupid.

Bush fils was drastically unsuited to be president; the job is a lot of grinding work, and Bush fils simply didn't know how to work. The backstop -- Darth Cheney -- kept the wheels on while the slaver faction tried hard to produce cowering-in-fear from an ever-larger portion of the globe.

Trump has neither the inclination, the skill, or the physical ability to do the work. Pence might have the physical ability, but only really cares about his fetishes and is utterly unsuited to the role in terms of knowledge and skills. There's no strong chief of staff; there's no backstop from Congress because Congress is effectively deadlocked because the guy in control of the Senate wants a restoration of the Confederacy and if achieving that means eating his own undercooked grandchildren on live TV, he'll do it.

The result is that the US has been functionally decapitated and there's a panicked idiot giving orders. In an environment where the institutional habit of respecting the office and not the man is strong.

Putin doesn't care what Trump does in specific very much; the point is that the guy with the football won't order Russia nuked no matter what. Everything else is gravy. Finding out how institutionally weak the US has become is lots of gravy.

329:

Sorry, I've got to correct that: POD through Kindle, at least, runs about the same costs as you just listed for mass market books. It's a bit more, but not much, because it is a web-offset printing.

Thing is, they give you a range of formats to choose for your book, everything from mass market paperback to hardcover stuff I haven't explored. They provide these formats in Word (yes, I know), and the primary check they make is to insure that the pdfs you submit to them (cover and contents) are properly formatted. That's what makes it so easy to publish with KDP: once you have a manuscript, it literally takes an afternoon to fiddle with the formatting, upload it, and get it approved for printing. Lulu's almost as fast.

It takes longer than that to get the page numbers properly formatted in Word (tip: since each chapter is a different section in the same document, you've got to correct the formatting on each section back to front, because of the way Word propagates formatting changes across sections). I've done all my book formatting and cover illustrations, including creating the index in the hard copy of Hot Earth Dreams. I found it no harder than doing the formatting of my thesis or dissertation, which came out a lot uglier by design.

It's strongly advisable to get a test copy before selling it. The common error is to misnumber the pages so that the recto and verso (the two sides of the pages) get reversed (done it. It's embarrassing. Bought it too, the idiots. The solution is to add one blank page somewhere in the front material). The other problem I've had is getting the cover illustration edge to stop at the right place, which was a known bug in the Kindle system and solved by not following one specific format instruction on the advice of the help desk. I did it all myself, but I can easily imagine all my meager profits going away if I hired a professional to do any of these tasks for me.

Lulu costs more, but not by much. IIRC they have better covers, too.

In all cases, these are for POD. You don't get burned for printing off five copies of a family cookbook, one copy of a wedding photo album, or 20 copies of Hot Earth Dreams to sell at events (I can get copies at about $10 for the $18 book, and I suspect that commercial authors don't do much better when they lug a box to a signing).

Where commercial publishing earns its share is through editing, advertising, professional design, and distribution. The only thing KDP doesn't do for free is editing, and they'll upsell you into that service if you want to pay for it.

330:

Scott, thanks for confirming the legal considerations wrt treason in the U.S.

331:

Graydon & anyody at all actually Historical parallel(s) for the USA/Trump right now? Germany 1913? [ Except there, the military were PLANNING for a war ] - the US (as a whole) is not .... Late Neronic Rome? ( 67 CE ) Byzantium in 1070 ( just before Battle of Manzikert ) ? Sassanid Persia in 650 AD ( 38 AH ) ? Any others? Or is this a new one - I find that hard to believe.....

332:

"He was also an enemy belligerent IN UNIFORM and as such was a legitimate MILITARY target, and the timing strongly suggests he was engaged in belligerent activities against the U.S. at the time he was killed."

Ah, I had the stupid idea that in order to openly kill members of your adversary’s military command you should be in an open war with them. Oh, sorry. Apparently, USA thinks that they are in war with Iran.

My country is a dedicated military ally of USA, but even during my active time in the army we did routinely run scenarios in which USA decided not to defend us in the case of a war. Or even be passively hostile (demanding something illegal according to our law or just putting economic pressure on us in order to maintain the military connection of the agreements).

For some reason I think that those scenarios have been updated and are exercised more often nowadays.

I am old enough not to be in the active reserve, but I think that the younger men handling these issues have had some additional headaches during the latest few years. I think that some of them are having a bad case of migraine just now.

333:

I’m so sorry about your cat. He sounds magnificent. We lost our beloved one-eyed orange tabby just before Christmas. He came to us as a rescue at ten years old and we had two years with him. Hopefully you will have a little more time to love the hell out of him. I know how much this hurts, even when there are “more important” things going on in the outside world. Sympathy and support.

334:

None.

No historical situation has modern communications in it, which means a substantial fraction of the entire human species is hooked up to an id-amplifier and instantaneous information flow.

Bad emperors, late Hapsburgs, the post-Great War imperial collapse, the Year Without A Summer, etc. are all fundamentally local crises; your span of awareness and span of concern is created by the communications span you're operating in, so everything historical is variously local.

Today, you get people in the literal antipodes giving money for koala rescue in real time.

It's a new thing in the world. To the extent that anyone is viewing it with a cohesive policy of use, it's being treated as a way to escape the rule of law. It would be supremely messy, 30 Years War messy, without the Carbon Binge.

335:

Graydon Aha! it's being treated as a way to escape the rule of law. And - enter/re-enter a new set of laws, perhaps ... the "slavers" laws maybe? Incidentally I am both frightened & impressed by that label - it rings horribly, unpleasantly true. QUestion, how is the rule of the slavers to be implemented in a coutry where that legacy does not exist? Like here. Or is it a revrsion to C19th "industrial" rules? Shudder - would go along with Grease-Samug & BOZO's "principles" I suppose.

336:

It's not solely about slavery, although that's how it manifested in the North American colonies: it's about the pre-Enlightenment doctrine that some people are people, and others ... aren't: think in terms of "women, slaves, and cattle" as equivalent categories, think in terms of peasants tied to the land, ask yourself why the term "wage slavery" doesn't sound like a joke these days, why for most of the 1649-1949 era England had two political parties -- the party of the landowners (Tories) and the party of the merchants (Liberals) except the Tories seem to be the only faction left standing and functional ...

No, it's not about reversion to C19 rules; it's about reversion to C16 rules, or earlier.

337:

I thought that we were a 'life+70' country - what have I missed?

338:

Adding to the "fun", the US imperial foreign policy has for a very, very long time been partially based on the enemy being unable to strike at US soil. But in the era of Internet of Things, critical infrastructure can be attacked from the other side of the globe, e.g. from Iran. Not the same as bombing a city by a long shot, but enough to disrupt the US public and make it clear that they are in a conflict.

And given the difficulty with which to accurately pinpoint the source of such attacks, others interested in sowing discontent between Iran and the US could be tempted to carry out cyber attacks.

339:

Charlie THAT is what I was afraid of ... the jokes about Grease-Smaug being the "Minister for the 18thC" ring a little hollow, now. Put that together with my possible historical parallel for Brexit as the "revival" of a golden age that never was between 1553 & 1558 & it really doesn't look nice. Meanwhile, the IRAQI Parliament has voted to get ALL foreign troops out of the country - & Iraq moves closer to Iran ... now look at THIS MAP .... maybe Trump has, unwittingly started the actual re-creation of the Persian Empire? Incidentally, he's threatened historic sites in Iran -itself a War Crime, that Da'esh were rightly condemned for ....

340:

I think we want Re-Smog to appointed as ambassador to the 18thC, since that means that he has to go and live there but doesn't directly affect anyone else beyond having to find another ambassadorial salary between us.

341:

I'd suggest you missed something. "Slavery" is a bad word. "Criminal" and "Illegal" are not. Racism and sexism are slowly eroding away. Hell, we're even getting rights for animals. However, rights for people convicted of crimes are still going away, because "they did it to themselves." This goes double for "illegal aliens," who are outside their law ("outlaws?")

Obviously, we can have a whole diversion into the multi-billion (trillion?) dollar mess that is the US-Prison Industrial complex. However, with climate migration only set to ramp up, I suspect that, instead of talking about either the slaving plantation owners or the serf-owning aristocrats, we're going to talk about the multinationals intermediating between the super-rich and the illegals whose work they capture while owning the means of production. The poor will increasingly face the choice of death by poverty or permanent oppression through becoming illegals.

And illegal status still respects people's inherent rights based on ethnicity, gender, sex, and perhaps even species.

342:

Greg, check out this map of regional heat projections under current climate warming scenarios.

Persian Empire? No.

Agriculture? Probably not. If you take a look at Hansen, et al., The New Climate Dice, there's that first graph; decadal temperature average distribution, that starts off as a smooth normal curve and turns into a slumped-right (that is, hotter) and increasingly spikey thing.

That spikey part is important; that's not the warming, that's the variability in conditions. It's analogous to jerk as the rate of change in acceleration. Nobody talks about this in the press, which is a pity, because it's the really important thing because it's not "same smooth climate, two degrees hotter"; it's "there isn't a forest here anymore because we got a spike into what won't be the average for a hundred years".

The core question for politics right now is "when does agriculture break?" The Slaver faction is betting that whenever that happens, they will have money and troops, and you will not. This isn't betting the rent, this is betting the continued utility of currency. It's not sensible, but, well. Most people seem to have a lot of trouble reading a graph.

343:

@343

I think that you are misinterpreting the situation. I honestly think that.

You think that there exists a definitive faction that really plans in that way. Actually I would be very, very happy if that was the case. That would be a previously unknown example of human planning and plotting. That type of coherence would be a positive sign for human species for the future.

My personal assumption is that THERE IS NO PRE-PLANNING FACTION. In other words, I assume that the human species is as stupid as other species. My assumption is that the human species just consumes resources as long as possible. After that is no longer possible as before, then the system collapses.

I am, however, very confident that that will not mean the extinction of the humans as species. There will be humans surviving the collapse. But they will not have the current global infrastructure.

344:

People talk about things like attacking the power grid, and while this is effective (there are about a hundred deaths attributable to the 2003 Northeast Blackout, for example) it's also totally random. The folks running Iran are pretty committed to being moral actors by their own standards, and they're equally aware that they don't want to convince the US population as a whole to attack them.

So I don't expect the grid to fail due to malicious action. (Under-investment and poor maintenance? Not especially unlikely.)

What I do expect is something that can be publically attributed -- which is a vital domestic PR need -- and which serves Iranian interests, which means maintaining the momentum of outrage. (This is another reason to be seen as acting with impeccable morality inside their own system.) Best possible is for a CVN undergoing maintenance to have a major nuclear accident. Few casualties, obvious target, big prestige hit, very expensive.

345:

We could destroy the country - think of Iraq before the invasion, with war criminal Cheney's "shock and awe" - but I agree, there's no way we could invade.

In addition, we would have zero allies. I just saw a report today that the international coalition that was fighting the Islamic State have stopped, and pulled back, to protect US, UK and other foreign troops. And the Iraqi parliament has heavily passed a resolution that the US be invited to leave, like, now.

Of course this is all "I'm impeached, and starting to lose support for a joke in the Senate, so I've got to counterpuch with multiple things fastest...."

346:

David Duke, too? I was in shock, yesterday, when bowtie boy Fucker Carleson, on Faux, came out against it, as well.

347:

"We could destroy the country …In addition, we would have zero allies"

USA has the capability to destroy any country without any conseques.(*) As long as those countries do not have enough nuclear bombs and suitable means in order to deliver those bombs to the USA soil.

If the country happens to have nuclear weapons and enough ICBMs, then USA will leave that country alone.

(*) As far as I understand, the USA military thinks that the only country they cannot win in a conventional war is China.

348:

The core question for politics right now is "when does agriculture break?"

I'm guessing that it will start to break in 10-20 years, at about the same time as the oceans break. We'll get by with some useful tactics like multi-cropping seeds with two different temperature ranges in the same field or by using greenhouses, but by 2050-2060 we're in real trouble barring something unforseen.

349:

Let me correct that a bit.

The only country where we can't defeat a non nuclear army is China. I think also Russia just due to logistics.

But win a war? Most sane people in the US now realize WWII is NOT a blueprint for how things can go after the military "wins" in most cases.

350:

If you look at things like farm profitability trends -- there was a recent publication pointing out that farm profitability has been falling at about 20% per year in Australia for almost a generation -- agriculture has been breaking for the past 20 years.

"The Crisis is Now" and all that.

(The SPCA put out a winter hay advisory in Alberta this summer; if you don't have the hay to feed your horses, particularly, you will be charged. Buy early, buy from as far away as you need to, we're not going to tolerate a repeat of last year. That's for hay, in what is at least historically a short grass prairie region.)

351:

Re: Iran hacks a free-access US gov't agency site

Wondering what you folks think about this. (Bad site security design? Tech competence test: US poor, Iran good? Not actually done by Iran but by supporters?)

Also this act is likely to prevent USians' access to important (free) gov't info.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/05/us-government-agency-website-hacked-by-group-claiming-to-be-from-iran

Excerpt:

'The website of the Federal Depository Library Program was replaced on Saturday with a page titled “Iranian Hackers!” that displayed images of Iran’s supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and the Iranian flag.'

352:

It looks to me like global agricultural productivity has been going up. Of course, that doesn't mean that profits are going up.

The flip side of agriculture breaking is that I'd expect back-yard agriculture to become useful and ordinary again, though I wouldn't expect to feed myself and family out of my back yard (at least not without massively increasing both my back yard infrastructure and my knowledge base.)

353:

Re: ' ... another reason to be seen as acting with impeccable morality inside their own system.)'

Agree ... but the Ayatollah has updated rules/laws a few times and there's no reason to assume that he won't do so again.

One politically timely in a knee-jerk-reaction type of change would be to extend Iran's compulsory military service. According to Wikipedia, conscription is universal (males 18+) but runs only 18 to 24 months. Considering that unemployment is currently very high among young males, the Ayatollah could kill two birds (1-ramp up active military head-count; 2-reduce unemployment stats) with one stone by extending the length of compulsory military service. There's a potential third spin-off benefit: increased conscription term could also put a damper on student protest marches.

354:

chuckle "Morned by dozens".

Took a break, and thought of two other possible targets: one would be the equivalent of a high-rannking general: the white supremecist Steven Miller, on the Idiot's "security council", who may well have pushed this, or one that would get a lot of Americans on Iran's side: Rupert Murdoch.

355:

"One politically timely in a knee-jerk-reaction type of change would be to extend Iran's compulsory military service."

Ah. You do not really understand the concept of conscription. I assume that the misunderstanding comes from being a citizen of a country that has a professional army. The conscription is one of the most important methods to increase the cohesion in a country. That is mostly underestimated in most western counties.

It can be said that a conscripted army will never be as loyal to the leadership as a professional one. The professional one will be 100% loyal to the payroll.

A professional army will happily shoot kids and grandmothers of their own country. A conscripted one will not.

356:

Iran is pretty well convinced the CIA is sabotaging their space program - That tweet of the keyhole photos of their unsceduled disassembly of launch vehicle last year was a text-book "overly specific denial". That is one obvious area where the US is pretty darn vulnerable to reprisal in kind, and which probably would not escalate further than Iran wants - sabotaging a rocket is not difficult, you can just shoot at it, or a thousand other things.

Agriculture being uneconomic is.. more or less an universal law? I can think of times and places where farmers prospered, but not a whole lot of them, the demand curve for food is too damn vertical - overproduce even a little, and bam, everyone is broke. Heck, the obesity epidemic is, from one perspective, down to the food industry attempting to up consumption of its product, and that has been pushed as far as it is ever likely to go. I expect farming to change, just because it is pretty obviously amenable to shifts in the mode of automation.

... Which will, actually, likely be an extremely visible change.

A few visions: a : Robot farm workers, moderate climate instability - everything gets planted in mixed fruit bush / tree / vegetable grains, and attended and harvested by lightweight machines. - mixed plantings to keep the area sheltered and moderate water flows. Much shorter sightlines in the country side! No more open fields, who only really took over everything because that is what made the combine harvester work.

b: Much worse weather instabilities: Food production gets put under glass once tactic a no longer sufficies as a mitigation strategy. Bladerunner 2048, basically.

c:Aquaculture. I hope you like sea-weed and mussels. A lot. It is what is for dinner, breakfast, and elevenses. Because a sea-farm is not going to loose its crops to heat shocks - too much thermal mass.

357:

Sea-farming is a non-starter due to anoxia, acidification, ecological collapse, pollution, and circulatory current shutdown/stutter. (And so far having problems with more food output than input; current "fish farming" is mostly a way to turn fish people are reluctant to buy into (diseased) salmon.)

"Under glass" is NOT a known technology. Existing greenhouses (aside from using 4mm polycarbonate, rather than glass; the ability to use glass is this weird retro speciality thing, not ramped-up and debugged mass production) depend on much larger external areas for ecological services of one sort or another. Gas-exchange-only greenhouses aren't even close to being known tech. So if the external climate is hammering on the ecological services, it's hammering on the greenhouses.

Farmers prosper any time they get to co-operate. Lots of effort goes into preventing this because then food prices stay low, which means the greedhead aristocracy doesn't have to pay people more. (This approach lacks foresight. It's a huge chunk of the middle ages, trying to keep the cost of horses down because that's more or less fixed by area with grain at the margins for cost of working a horse.)

Note that since 1950 in AngloNorAm, agricultural productivity has roughly tripled. Constant dollar income was flat; it's now declining. This is policy. (Look, for example, at the state of dairy farming in upstate New York.) Which means that you don't have to get to the point of agricultural collapse due to climate variability -- variability gets you before the heat does -- you can get to Late Capitalism agricultural collapse because the funding model presumes things which are no longer so and does not update quick enough. (It's not like the bank executive worries about getting enough to eat!)

And, again; this is already happening, in Anglo NorAm. It's properly a present concern.

358:

“Note that since 1950 in AngloNorAm, agricultural productivity has roughly tripled.”

This is one of the fallacies that interest me quite much. The agricultural productivity has not tripled if you discount the external incursions. When you discount those effects, then the productivity has not increased that much.

359:

I mentioned seaweed and mussels specificially because those can be grown in anoxic waters without external food inputs - you plant giant seaweed, which oxygenates the local waters, grow bi-valves on ropes, harvest both weed and meat-plants. Waters do need to not be actively toxic, but this kind of operation creates its own micro-biome.

360:

The US and war... and conscription. Just yesterday, I saw an article - apparently a LOT of people are asking what the draft boards, still in existence in the US, are doing. They say that it's business as usual, and to start conscripting, Congress would have to pass a law.

That's NOT going to happen. Some of you remember, or have read, about the size and effect of the anti-war Movement in the sixties and seventies (all true, or maybe more than you've thought - I was part of it), and if you thought the Women's March was bad news for the GOP....

361:

Remember, Blackadder is comedy, not history...

Regarding British (and Commonwealth) WW1 Generals - more British Generals died at the Battle of Loos than in the whole of WW2. These are the Generals and soldiers who held the line in March 1918; and then utterly defeated the German Army in the field in the Hundred Days Offensive. The Armistice happened because the Commonwealth forces had broken the German defensive lines, and were heading Eastwards at the same rate that they did in 1944 (between 1914 and 1918 on the Western Front, thode Generals built an Army of four million civilians, invented combined-arms warfare, and then kicked the sh1t out of everyone in front of them). Armistice, or an occupied Berlin: the Germans grabbed the chance to surrender with both hands.

Remember also that the only army in WW1 not to suffer major mutinies... was the British Army.

Regarding German pre-WW1 logistics; maybe. And they built autobahnen prior to WW2 (concrete, suitable for tanks). However, that’s not an indicator of competence. Even at the end of WW2, 75% of German Army logistics was horse-drawn. For example, Rommel was doomed from the start, because he employed forces whose daily consumption far exceeded the total shipping capacity of his available ports by a significant amount. The planning for the invasion of the U.K. was so bad as to be a joke; after defeating Norway in 1940, their navy was down to a light cruiser and six destroyers.

The Germans was always going to lose eventually; they had a two-year head start on everyone else, who had been concentrating on recovery from a global recession; but it was doomed from 1941. Britain alone outproduced them in ships, tanks, and aircraft every single year of the war. Their force densities for Op BARBAROSSA were ludicrously low; no way they could hold the line they advanced to. For all the claims of their tactical superiority, they got humped rigid at Corps level, on every front, by every opponent. They just kept losing. In 1941, they’re fighting battles with the Soviets at about parity. By 1943, they’re outnumbered 3:1, by 1944 5:1, by 1945 they’re fighting battles with force ratios of 10:1 in favour of the USSR.

And as for those who believe “If Germany had only held on to produce more Me-262 / Horton / Tiger”, they conveniently forget that they would immediately have been facing Vampire, Centurion - types whose service started in 1945, and continued for decades post-war, unlike the German kit that was scrapped fairly quickly as being a bit rubbish.

362:

Btw, about writing and publishing: as I've now sold, and I'm out of the slush pile, I suppose I could.

I won't.

  • Old school, still sees a lot of it as vanity press.
  • I seem to be writing well. I am not an IP lawyer, or a PR person with a real budget for PR, I do my best, but I'm not a copyeditor. Oh, yes, and I REALLY dislike the idea of the tax law I'm going to need... and I'm sure there's things I've missed.
  • Which is why I'm going the traditional route.

    363:

    Please note: the Orange Idiot has been impeached. That's a done deal. On the other hand, if Giuliani's Ukrainian associate testifies... they could bring more charges, and impeach him on them.

    The issue is removal from office, which requires the Senate trial. Moscow Mitch is doing his best... but I saw today that in the last week or two, the percentage of Americans who want him removed has gone from 49% to 55%.

    He's desperate, because if he's out of office, there will be no way to hide his finances, or anything else, and he will spend life in consecutive jail sentences, and lose all of his money.

    Even worse... he'll have to face that he is what "all those nasty rich people in NYC thought, a stupid loser."

    364:

    The folks running Iran are pretty committed to being moral actors by their own standards, and they're equally aware that they don't want to convince the US population as a whole to attack them.

    In the event that the current crisis escalates into a full-blown war with the US bombing Tehran, the Iranian government might consider landing a few blows in the US itself?

    But baring that, you are right, it would be pretty stupid of them to do anything serious to the US itself.

    365:

    That's a truly foolish an ignorant attitude. There will be repercussions... in fact, there are already.

    Or have you not bought gas in the last couple of days? Or seen the reports of the market?

    366:

    I actively dislike firearms. I have lived with people who had them... but, I suspect, most gun nuts aren't vaguely as "responsible". For example, my late wife let our son have a cap gun... but was REALLY emphatic that he was never to point it at a person, or at one of our pets. Ever.

    On the other hand, having been forced to watch the oligarchy building for the last 40 years, I have a lot of anger.

    Fortunately, I just found, online, somewhere (I don't seem to be able to save a game, but...) to play the original Doom.

    Which I could put the Orange Idiot's, and McConnell's faces on some....

    367:

    I thought that we were a 'life+70' country - what have I missed?

    My UK publisher buys EU and Commonwealth (minus Canada) English language rights. UK being part of EU. (I suspect in future they're going to be explicitly paired.)

    This means my UK editions are potentially sold in Spain, which means Spanish copyright law terms apply.

    This has only really impacted me once: the frontispiece quote in "The Nightmare Stacks" is the entire first paragraph of "The War of the Worlds" in the US edition -- it came out of copyright in time -- but is just one sentence in the UK edition, because Spanish law means it's still in copyright and UK Fair Dealing law applies (rather than US Fair Use law) to quotes, which is much more restrictive.

    NB: When in doubt, ask the publisher to ask their lawyers for an opinion! It's much less work, it makes the lawyers feel needed, and it saves an embarrassing lawsuit later in the day.

    368:

    “A professional army will happily shoot kids and grandmothers of their own country. A conscripted one will not.”

    Sorry, but that’s IMHO utterly wrong. Got any examples?

    Meanwhile, right-wing governments in Argentina, Chile, Guatemala happily tortured and murdered their own citizens using conscripts. German and Austrian conscripts happily manned the watchtowers of concentration camps in WW2, DDR conscripts happily shot people trying to cross the “Anti-Fascist Barrier” until the 1980s.

    The key difference is that the average conscript soldier is 18, and the average conscript junior NCO is 19 or 20. Contrast that with a professional military, where the soldiers and NCOs tend to be older, more mature, and less likely to “follow orders without question”.

    369:

    I believe it would be a mixed bag: some would, and some would play the traditional card of following ALL the rules, and filling out ALL the forms.

    Only a few might just say no, though, I could be wrong.

    370:

    Um, did you miss where Russia and China made public pronouncements that this was a very, vary bad thing?

    His admin isn't happy.

    371:

    ROTFLMAO!!!

    Haven't seen any of the news stories about farmers hurting, really, really badly, and them being unhappy with him? Or other businesses, ditto? I read one months ago, where they interviewed a guy who'd been a strong supporter, and now said, in so many words, that he felt like a fool.

    372:

    I'm sure JHS can speak more directly to this, but yep: the US military is in exhaustion mode, with 17 years of eternal wars that occupy a lot of the active duty... and remember, the Army is vastly smaller than during 'Nam.

    373:

    After years of opposition to first-person shooters, my wife eventually sided with my sons and allowed them to buy “CoD”. Last night, youngest son finally persuaded me to play it for the first time - and I found it very frustrating. My senses were limited (hearing wasn’t particularly directional, everything was far too dark, field of vision was too narrow and I couldn’t turn my “head” quickly or accurately enough).

    For me, it was... uncanny valley levels of unrealistic. Or maybe, I’m just rubbish with the game controller (my skills at control don’t match my expectation).

    Anyway, I’ve got to go to the range this week to shoot some targets for the County team (I still compete at a local level in smallbore target rifle); I’m the opposite of you, I’m a gun owner who isn’t a gun enthusiast...

    374:

    Federal Depository Library Program

    Now the big question. Has anyone here ever heard of this?

    375:

    I dunno if that is a good idea.

    "It's always the old to lead us to the war It's always the young to fall Now look at all we've won with the saber and the gun Tell me is it worth it all" - "I Ain't Marchin' Any More", Phil Ochs.

    Maybe if we did shoot them, they'd be a little less eager to start wars. Hell, I thin I remember a Bill Mauldin cartoon, of leaders in a ring with baseball bats, and all the troops standing around rooting.

    376:

    though I wouldn't expect to feed myself and family out of my back yard

    Due to a recent death my wife owns 1/6 of a small plot in a village in southern Germany that a distant cousin has been using as a garden for a decade or few. Wonder what it would cost to ship it to the eastern US? [sarcasm off]

    377:

    “Sorry, but that’s IMHO utterly wrong. Got any examples?”

    What about the history of mercenaries over several thousands of years? Does that count?

    I am completely too lazy to count the atrocities made by mercenaries during the last couple of thousands of years. More proof than for the problems caused by the conscripted soldiers.

    But if that does not count, then I am completely happy with your opinion. We just have to agree to disagree.

    378:

    I'm so sorry. Give him a pet for me.

    And when it's time, it is your responsibilty. Take him to the vet, and stay with him when the vet gives him the needle.

    I can't tell you how much it hurt, four years after my late wife dropped dead, to have to put down our cats that we'd had more than fifteen years, to lose them, after her.

    But about three months apart, they both had some sort of masses growing, and they were having trouble breathing....

    Like I said, please give him a pet for me.

    379:

    Thank you, very much. I don't plan on self-publishing, but it's good to know the whole process.

    I've saved it.

    380:

    I'd be surprised if it didn't already exist.

    Please note: I'm in WSFA (DC area club), and we have the WSFA Press, and every year or three get a book by our GOH for Capclave. I've also just given as a gift to my granddaughter and her mother the collected People stories by Zenna Henderson, publisher, NESFA Press.

    381:

    She's not... except the main reason she now appears to be are the ultra-rich REALLY, REALLY HATE HER, because she's talking about a tax on wealth, not income, and might get a friendly Congress to pass it.

    Ignore people like Bill Gates - I just saw a stat that something like 1% of the ultrawealthy give money to charity... yeah, something like .3% of the income, while the 99% of them give something like 0.01% to charity.

    382:

    Wouldn’t the conditions that break large-scale agriculture be hard on small-scale/gardening too?

    383:

    @whitroth

    Crude oil prices are up from $62 to $64

    Price at the pump is unchanged and pretty low

    Farmers are not weakening in their support of Trump

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/08/trump-still-has-high-approval-among-rural-base-in-farm-states-poll.html

    Especially given the new trade deal with China is landing which specifically favors them

    Note these aren’t anecdotes this is data

    While there have been a lot of stern admonition from other nations none of them have actually DONE anything. Even the vote to boot the US out of Iraq is symbolic

    So yeah, as of right now there have not been major negative repercussions on Trump for his actions. That will certainly change if the situation degenerate

    384:

    That looks to me either like some overenthusiastic-but-unaffiliated supporters, or someone flying a false flag.

    385:

    Not really - I think you’re under a misapprehension that professional militaries are mercenaries. The two are rather different.

    Take, for instance, the US military; they swore an oath to defend the nation and its Constitution, and aren’t personally loyal to Trump (read some US miltwitter, and I suspect you may be surprised; there are some rather critical comment threads). Likewise, the British Armed Forces swear their oath to the Crown (their Head of State), not the Prime Minister (their paymaster). If the Prime Minister gives an illegal order, the Prime Minister gets told to do one.

    I happen to agree that a conscript military (if done correctly) is an excellent mechanism for social mobility, for the integration of militaries with society, and for getting the best and brightest into your military. It’s also economically very expensive - you’ve just reduced your workforce by 5% (assuming two years of conscription and a forty-year working career).

    But claiming that professional militaries are happier to act murderously in the name of domestic tyranny, isn’t borne out by recent history (it doesn’t help you that professional militaries tend to exist within democracies, tend to be smaller, and thus tend not to be suited to domestic repression - they just aren’t big enough to manage it).

    As I said, have you got any specific examples?

    386:

    Wouldn’t the conditions that break large-scale agriculture be hard on small-scale/gardening too?

    Not necessarily, at least not everywhere. Up here we have permaculture plots scattered about that both use microclimates and generate them. There's a bunch of things you can do at small scale that are hard or impossible to do at large scale, especially mechanised large scale. Peasant agriculture can be done in a pretty smart way, but you have to keep in mind that smart always means large areas either fallow or forested. Neither of those give you the "increased productivity" of modern agri-cults.

    I've grown salt-intolerant vegetables in salt-spray areas by being very careful about siting, sheltering and drainage. But that gets you at best about 20% ground coverage, where the agricultists will get very close to 100%.

    Likewise my house still has a wet, active garden after 3+ months of hot drought because the soil is covered with about 20cm of dry woodchips. There's some technique is leading seedlings up through that, but once they're in place they will cope with 40°C days as long as there aren't too many in a row.

    And so on. But when you start talking about covering 100's of hectares with 30cm of woodchips then spacing out your plantings so you can individually nurture each seedling that stops being mechanised agriculture and you need an army of peasants (Polish guest workers in the UK, Mexicans in the US).

    387:

    A professional army will happily shoot kids and grandmothers of their own country.

    My grandfather was a British soldier in Ireland during the Troubles. Volunteer, not conscript, so I presume what you would call a professional soldier.

    His section came under fire from a sniper. Sergeant down, and the Tommies panicking because they were getting shot at and they couldn't return fire — because the shots were coming from within a crowd of civilians including women. It was one of the nightmare memories that resurfaced when he succumbed to Alzheimers.

    Only one counterexample, I admit, but I feel you are tarring all professional soldiers with a brush they don't deserve.

    388:

    Re: 'A professional army will happily shoot kids and grandmothers of their own country. A conscripted one will not.'

    A professional army is not the same as a mercenary army. If anything, I'd expect a 'professional' [national] soldier to be more cautious about civilian casualties. BTW - My Lai occurred when the US still relied on conscripts for its military.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre

    389:

    Apropos of nothing:

    With the assassination of Solemeini, there's this little ghost of Archduke Ferdinand waving his hand in the distance. The ghost isn't Iran, it's Iran's increasingly close ties to Russia and China. I do hope that, with Trump's careless brinksmanship, we don't get a shooting war between the US and, well, everyone except England, Canada, and Mexico.

    Probably won't, because the simplest way for the rest of the world to deal with this mess is to stop funding Trump and the Republicans. We'll see how it goes, but hopefully this doesn't escalate quickly.

    390:

    Re: '... the simplest way for the rest of the world to deal with this mess is to stop funding Trump and the Republicans.'

    Agree. Given how many trade deals DT has walked away from or not been able to finalize, it's a possibility. Biggest 'if' factor here is the US financials/stocks sector that would get hit hardest. Financials make up about 20% of the US GDP and every time there's been an increase in trade war rants*, there's been a market sell-off.

    BTW - China has devalued its currency a few times yet still has better purchasing power parity than the US. The devaluations hurt the US and not China (so far).

    https://www.visualcapitalist.com/80-trillion-world-economy-one-chart/

    'While China’s economy is far behind in nominal terms at $12.2 trillion, you may recall that the Chinese economy has been the world’s largest when adjusted for purchasing power parity (PPP) since 2016.'

    • Some financial analyst did an impact analysis on DT's tweets: turns out the market dips as the number of tweets increases. Wonder if anyone has checked whether he tells his stock broker when to expect an increase in rantings.

    https://www.barrons.com/articles/donald-trump-twitter-stock-market-51567803655

    391:

    One of my uncles left the "oil bidness" for farming, back in the early 1970s. He wanted land in southeast Kansas, but it was unaffordable then, so he ended up in west Texas, south of the Panhandle. He went broke in 20 years, what with weather and fuel costs. One of his comments was that 'farming is the only business where you buy retail and sell wholesale'. This is why Big Ag is taking over: individuals can't afford it.

    392:

    Sigh.

    IL - CY -GR --- major pipeline deal just signed. Might of noticed a bit of heat via the DM and rape cases. One thing they could NOT do is piss off IL. "Light Bearers" my ass.

    What is Syria actually about? Pipeline deals.

    TR has a small slice of that in terms of Air / Sea access (oh and northern Syria stuff, but they've got that one sorted via dominance over both rivers).

    TR -> Libya, troops: Hafta is US$$$A backed, now has ~1/3rd country (middle) under wraps. TR is propping up the important parts (North, sea access etc) and while .gov voted against letting them in, there's been enough air traffic to put some serious support in country.

    SB -> oil field deals in SY (N) and so on (thus the deal that ended up with "a mauser with a M16 attached with a barrel that shoots both ways") leads to this.[0]

    What benefits the IL/CY/GR deal? Horm passage closure (puts pressure on signing / TR as NATO signatory).

    USA - GE stuff over Nord Gaz pipeline - sanctions and full on muppetry.

    And so on.

    They killed the dudes because they want no other options to be viable. That's why you kill serious Rook level pieces.

    Grow up.

    [0] You're gonna have to look up who made the missile type and so on to get that joke.

    393:

    My father saw an early German jet trying to take off, at Pax River around 1946, with a pilot (who may have been too heavy for the plane). He said it barely cleared the fence, went into the wooded overrun, and sheared both wings.

    394:

    Oh, and getting off Twitter.

    DJ basically signed off on the IL/S.NATO plan vrs the TR/N.NATO (FR) plan.

    Absolutely no-one is shocked, look at the fucking stock market. Even the fucking local market was only down ~3% max.

    Everyone here: WAAAAAAY not cynical enough. IR is a fucking joke.

    Want to panic?

    Wait till a couple more "Egyptian fishermen" sever that undersea cabal. Cable? Or Cabal?

    ~

    Humans. We're not impressed.

    395:

    I understand Tr*mp was walking around Mar-al-Ego early this last week telling people that something big was going to happen in the ME. And Lockheed stock went up markedly on Thursday. Many of us were Not Surprised, but we would very much like to know who was buying and when and where they heard.

    396:

    Oh, and the Cat turned out to be a Grey one, and 'training' turned out to involve major work.

    If you need sources, they can be provided: just take it as true and ignore the fucking media for once. If TR troops start getting cut up due to Hafta/US proxies, then worry, 'cause then TR will use their slice access in the med to derail the IL/GR pipeline deal, and TR will have to agree to the RU pipeline deal and so on and so forth.

    p.s.

    No-one in the media, nor Twitter nor even fucking humans anymore does proper IR.

    No, really. Grey cat, [redacted].

    You're Fucked

    397:

    No, not really.

    1 Insider trading, esp. in the MIC is basically QPQ for all of USA officials, has been since Nixon. No, it's never prosecuted. 2 F35 deal + 3% spike is nothing, these fuckers view this as tips 3 3% is nothing, it's not even noise at this point. Go look up GS having to stump up $1.75 bil for WeWork 'cause Softbank major got the willies as reference. 4 Everyone knew about the Iran hit like... days before Trump started spouting guff. That's why he's doing the Twitter maelstrom - to try to convince people he's "in the loop".

    Seriously: people. Stop reading MF, MSM and so on for your intel. They're muppets.

    398:

    If you need a wake-up call:

    DERP DERP, WHO IS THE EX-RAYTHEON LOBBYIST IN THE USA GOV AND WHAT IS HIS POSITION?

    Like - Haliburton etc.

    Seriously: Americans being super-naive about who runs shit is really gross right now.

    You're an Empire.

    You're run by the people who make weapons.

    You make sure that all states you consider 'friendly' are run by weapons manufacturers.

    etc

    Cut the shit, it's no longer cute.

    ~

    Signed: A Weapon who is ooooooooooooh so much better than you.

    Grey. Cat. [redacted]

    Y'all this close to some major fucking IMMANENT SHIT. Trust me boys. Trust me.

    399:

    “CASE NIGHTMARE GREEN ... turns out (20 years later) to be a really useful metaphor for anthropogenic climate change” Except that, however misguided or downright horrific their responses, the Laundryverse governments are at least taking the problem seriously.

    400:

    If you need sources, they can be provided Don't need sources (good practice, though always appreciated), but what is "IR" (as something that both is done and can be a f-in joke)? If e.g. Information Retrieval or International Relations, true I suppose. (One doesn't "do" Iran, well Iranians do.) (Information Ratio would be an odd but fun usage.) Something else?

    401:

    If believe you can grow anything in anoxic water when I see it done. My experience with anoxic water indicates that nothing grows. Wooden ships don't even rot.

    402:

    IR= International Relations, here.

    It's basically a two riff jokes:

    1) Everyone has suddenly become experts on Iran

    2) They know shit all and most of them work for dubious Think Tanks

    3) Can you see in the dark? We can

    “We have a very extraordinarily expensive air base that’s there. It cost billions of dollars to build. Long before my time. We’re not leaving unless they pay us back for it,” Trump said.

    JFC, you'd think a so called real estate developer would know that improvements to leased land by a tenant aren't paid for by the land's owner. When Iraq says GTFO any improvements that can't/aren't carted away revert to the owner.

    This is from an American.

    Who forgot about numerous cases, but we'll just put two here for you:

    UK settles WWII debts to allies http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6215847.stm

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti

    Any American expousing this type of nonsense in 2020 needs a fucking slap.

    The ENTIRE FUCKING POINT is that certain places (UK, for once) honor these types of deals, entire economies are still based off them (FR - AND 14 EX-COLONIES IN AFRICA YOU TWAT) and so on and so forth.

    ~

    Americans expressing "F for Doubt" over this are a fucking liability, mate.

    403:

    If believe you can grow anything in anoxic water when I see it done. My experience with anoxic water indicates that nothing grows. Wooden ships don't even rot.

    Here's one example: https://aem.asm.org/content/73/21/6802

    Lack of oxygen in cold water slows down bacteria, but it doesn't eliminate all of them.

    In general, you know this. Your gut is anoxic, but that doesn't mean that you can't digest anything. It's just the way it works, and a good chunk of your GI tract is making sure that the anoxic bacteria are happy in there, and that there's good barrier between that little bit of old Earth and the rest of your body, which requires oxygen.

    Speaking of which, most of life's history on Earth happened in an atmosphere where there was little if any free oxygen. They metabolize slower (hence the slower breakdown of wood in anoxic water)and can't really do multicellularity, but they were there.

    404:

    "No, it's not about reversion to C19 rules; it's about reversion to C16 rules, or earlier." I think ever eariler - pre-feudal. At least as I understand it, feudalism involved at least some reciprocity; you owed your lord fealty (and taxes and your daughter etc) but he owed you protection. The mega-rich-bastards don't want to even be that tied down.

    405:

    whitroth @ 364 And unlike Wilhelm II, on whom there were constraints ( He tried, vainly & too late, to stop the whole thing, or at least the invasion of Belgium on about August 1st/2nd ... ) DT is ONLY concerned about himself, not even the continuation of his "empire".So he can & maybe will start a war, just as a distraction. ... @ 371 And BOZO is doing the impression of a shit-seeker, looking for Trump's areshole, yes? NOTE: Being terminally stupid in the middle E has brought down quite a few PM's with delusions Lloyd George, Eden, Blair - I think Labour would have kept a majority in 2010 if he hadn't grovelled to the Shrub I wonder if he can be headed off, or even the "New" tories will revolt at the idea of going against Iran?

    RvdH @ 383 Partially But, typically, allotment holders plant a much wider variety of "stuff" of different varieties, compared to large-area aggroculture .... Let's see - plant + number of varieties ... Potatoesx4, Leeksx3, Tomatoesx8,Sproutsx4, Beans x6, Onions x4, Garlic x4, etc - you get the idea? See also Moz on microclimates & "niches" - plant this in the warm SW-facing corner & those in the cool under the trees & that close to the ditch, etc ...

    Heteromeles @ 390 troble is DT WANTS it to escalate quickly, so that it covers/distracts/derails impeachment proceedings & he can wrap himself in the US flag & "win" this year's election. We may have a constitutional crisis here, if BOZO insosts on supporting Trum - see also Martin's comments, above

    406:

    Re: '... the simplest way for the rest of the world to deal with this mess is to stop funding Trump and the Republicans.'

    Please take a look at the US federal budget.

    Depending on how deep you dig, upwards to 20% of the budget goes to support the military industrial complex Eisenhover warned the world against, and all the negative consequences of it, from foreign aid over veterans to superfund-sites.

    USA is a planned political economy which is in the business of waging war.

    The primary reason for the B61 mod12 is not because of some new or hitherto uncovered military need, but simply to retain the ability to keep building nuclear weapons, should such need suddenly appear.

    A large part of the actual argumentation als talks about making the B61 more "versatile", "flexible" and "usable", in the hope that DoD will finally start to use some of the bloody things, so new ones can be sold to them.

    And the primary reason Iran is in the cross-hairs right now, is that it is about a decade since DoD last had a big fireworks display, and they cannot procure new weapons and ammunition while the arsenals are full.

    Curbing the MIC would be like shutting down the pump in the US economy.

    This is not just theory, Reagan&Bush Sr. harvesting the "Cold War Dividend" made a big dent in the US economy, because for every one of the million soldiers they pulled home from Europe, ten people lost their job supporting them state-side.

    Until USA has a serious economic revolution, they will start a war every 10 years.

    407:

    Thanks for that explanation. I doubt that that makes it a breach of copyright law to copy for private use in the UK (only a tort, anyway, even if it were in copyright). You are talking about copying for sale, which is very different.

    408:

    SNARL I bought "The March North" yesterday on Google as an experiment ... after going round about 3 time I got it & PAID for it. NOW, I can't get back in & fucking Google are sending me messages I'm not recieveing asking for codes that may be fake & generally NOT WORKING - the phine is in fornt of me as I type & isn't getting the mesasges - yes wifi is on etc. WTF? And people wonder why some of us prefer dead trees.

    409:

    Except that, however misguided or downright horrific their responses, the Laundryverse governments are at least taking the problem seriously.

    Ooh. That suggests a plotline or two which excessively-honest-me wouldn't normally think of (because hypocrisy on the scale currently being demonstrated by the likes of Scott Morrison in Australia is counterintuitive).

    410:

    Sounds like you registered an old phone number with google -- have you changed mobile numbers in, oh, the past decade or so? Because then they're sending texts with a 2fa authorization code to a phone you don't have any more.

    Google has some weird bugs that hang around forever because their staff focus on rolling out new services rather than patching old code (it's how you get promoted there). For example, after just one trip to Poland, Google Maps decided I speak fluent Polish and nothing I've been able to do since then will make it flip back to English. This is probably My Fault™ for jumping through the flaming hoops to switch off google's more privacy-invasive features (logging my search history, basically). So it's possible they figured out your old phone number and keep it, persistently, rather than sending codes to your current phone.

    411:

    Peter Pan is an exception. As far as I know, the exception. It's got a perpetual copyright under British Law, with all royalties being supplied to Great Ormond Street Hospital.

    412:

    ... after just one trip to Poland, Google Maps decided I speak fluent Polish and nothing I've been able to do since then will make it flip back to English.

    I imagine that there's some bare-bones explanation of the language setting protocol that includes enough information to let a technically astute user figure out how to manually change languages - and that Google will only give it to you in Polish.

    • tired sigh *
    413:

    Thank you. You are correct.

    I have found the actual reference, and the situation is that it is NOT even a tort to download it in the UK from Project Gutenberg, though it IS to perform it in public.

    https://www.gosh.org/about-us/peter-pan/copyright

    Or, in the Act:

    [GOSH Children's Charity is] entitled, subject to the following provisions of this Schedule, to a royalty in respect of any public performance, commercial publication [or communication to the public] of the whole or any substantial part of the work (*) or an adaptation of it.

    (*) "the work" means the play "Peter Pan" by Sir James Matthew Barrie.

    Whether or not it is a tort for the Gutenberg project to make it accessible in the UK, I will leave to lawyers.

    414:

    There is a simple solution to this with most browsers under most desktop systems (though you need to be a bit geekish to use it): wrap your browser in a script that purges all cookies and other such crap every time you close it.

    Web page: "Allow us to store an arbitrary amount of snooping data in your cookies or sod off."

    Me: "OK, and much good may it do you" :-)

    415:

    Here's a possibly more useful response, because it's 4am here and I have nothing better to do:

    If Google Maps is otherwise behaving itself there should be a menu option in the upper left corner. This menu should include Language (Język in Polish), although some interfaces tuck it under a sub-menu for Settings (possibly Ustawienia in Polish). That brings up a long list of languages. I've tried it just now on Chrome and I can reset languages as I like.

    As a side note I discover that it offers me English (United States) but not English (UK) or English (Australia). I could choose either ‪Español (España)‬ or ‪Español (Latinoamérica), but if I wanted French there's only ‪Français (France)‬ and no ‪Français (Canada)‬. Making the options location sensitive seems counterproductive but I didn't code the thing.

    There's an article here on changing the audio interface, which isn't a thing I use.

    I suspect you tried all this within days of leaving Poland, but as I said it's 4am...

    416:

    Inspired by Scott, I found a "Polish Family Centre" on Leith Walk. I don't know anyone there, but I do know that Poles are usually happy to help with stuff like this.

    417:

    The entire point of the giant kelp planting (beyond harvesting it) is that it oxygenates the water. So, no, its not growing in anoxic waters, but it is creating its own area of oxygenated, less acidic, water

    418:

    In my browser there's a setting provided to delete all cookies when closing it, but I never do (although it does crash occasionally), so the method isn't applicable. Instead I just don't allow the crap to be created in the first place. Cookies are disabled, except for specific sites such as this that I want to log in to, and LSOs are also disabled. The various "unofficial" methods of storing state in browsers are taken care of by general anti-evil-script defences and disabling the HTML "canvas" element. This method is also more comprehensive, since it also prevents the site trying to use cookies within the session to improve your user experience.

    The trouble with Google is that there don't seem to be any "press-button" methods (or close approximations) for sanitising it, so geekery is the only option. On search results pages, for instance, it has mechanisms for tracking clicks on the results both with javascript on and with it off. To fix this means writing your own script that both blocks Google's scripts and rewrites the result URLs to remove the tracking redirection bit. There are several other undesirable things that require the same kind of method to get rid of them, and thanks to Google's apparently deliberate bloody awful coding style it's a royal pain in the arse, so I've limited myself to cleaning up the search results pages (which are the easiest to do) and blocking or just not using everything else. (Including their mickey mouse maps.)

    (Ebay is another example of a site where geekery is necessary to block all the shite. I do all the searching with cookies off and only log in to actually buy stuff, but it passes a bunch of session history back and forth in URL query parameters, and it wouldn't consistently give me the same results for the same search term until I wrote a script to delete all those parameters except the one or two actually necessary ones.)

    419:

    That's productivity measured as "output per farm worker". So far as I know, yeah, it really has about tripled.

    Productivity per hectare and soil health and several other things are quite distinct from "farming is a way to lose money" structural issues.

    420:

    Waters do need to not be actively toxic

    Current expected sea level rise from current atmospheric carbon load is 15 metres. Minimum supportable is five metres-something. (This is from a cave on Mallorca where there's been an opening to the sea for the last several million years and you can use mineral deposition in the cave to get a paleo sea level.)

    There's an awful lot of heavy industry within fifteen metres of current sea level; absent a concerted effort to move it all uphill ahead of the rising sea, toxic is going to be a long-term problem. (well, human-scale long term.)

    421:

    Austria v Serbia, but with some bits the other way round?

    I don't buy the "no parallels because the internet is a difference in kind" thing. It's a difference in degree only, and not even all that much of one looking at how ancient phenomena like marvelling at the unfeasibly rapid spread of rumour or political appeal to the mob are.

    422:

    Um, what's TJ going on about?

    Kelp as a species (most kelp forests,not all, are dominated by giant kelp, Macrocystis pyrifera) prefers clean, cold waters between 5-20oC. (https://www.nps.gov/glba/learn/nature/kelp-forest.htm). They're cold-water species.

    So far as I know, to a first approximation, all the oxygen in the ocean comes from phytoplankton floating in the photic part of the ocean, plus wave action in the Arctic and Antarctic that pulls atmospheric gases into the water through all those beautiful, wind-whipped waves.

    Planting more kelp to increase oxygen is kinda like trying to help a bald man get hairier by giving him denser eyelashes.

    That said, I think that if you could find a way to anoxically bury large amounts of phytoplankton, you'd find a good way to pull CO2 out of the ocean and put it back in the lithosphere. Oddly enough, that's what deep water dead zones do. Phytoplankton buried anoxically produce this stuff called kerogen in a rock called shale, which decomposes (in the chemical sense) really slowly. If the kerogen deposit is capped by an impenetrable layer of rock (like a salt deposit), then the decay products get trapped as they rise, and you get deposits of things like petroleum and natural gas.

    This is one normal way carbon goes out of the ocean during periods when there is a lot of it in the atmosphere. It's really hard on marine life adapted to a world without dead zones for at least the last 15 million years, and even harder on a human civilization that depends on exploiting the ocean without control, but it is a natural feedback system.

    423:

    Or you could just ask Simon Morden to do it for you ;)

    424:

    Charlie Google has some wierd bugs Yes ... after much swearing & going round a couple more times, it fixed itself, but bugger knows what happened. I will now, shortly, try "A Succession of Bad Days" - it's certainly DIFFERENT. As different as Hannu Rajaniemi's work if easier to at least part understand ....

    425:

    I think you've got me mixed up with someone else - I haven't commented on the competence or otherwise of British/Commonwealth WW1 generals, I was saying that the manifest lack of competence of a mad corporal as supreme commander (on the other side, in the next war) created a situation that was preferable to the possibility of him being assassinated and someone competent taking his place.

    The stuff about German WW1-era logistics is from a book on the history of railways in warfare I found on Project Gutenberg or archive.org or somewhere like that, plus more general histories of the period (1 interests me more than 2 in most aspects). To be sure the quality of the results of their planning varied wildly between frighteningly effective and frighteningly stupid, and anything naval in particular suffered from fundamental cluelessness, but they still loved doing it, which was my point: they certainly did not "disdain" it in favour of buckling the swash and trusting to the fortune of war.

    It seems to me that a lot of the story of the Western Front was defined by the Germans' logistical methods' need for order and predictability. The land behind their trenches was mostly intact and easy to run a distribution network over, and their operations in large part aimed at keeping things that way. They did fine as long as they kept in contact with their supply machine, but trying to go beyond the area where it functioned well - as in 1914 and 1918 - they only kept going until the bungee pulled taut and then it went spoing and yanked them back again.

    426:

    _Moz_ @ 310: There are so many "legitimate military targets" on the US side that saying they might stick to those doesn't narrow it down much at all, especially if they also use the US "anyone near a target is a target" for values of "near" that make astronomers look precise (the Earth is 'near' the Sun, for example).

    I don't know what military experience you might be drawing from, but that's NOT the way the U.S. military works. The PR people may use the term "collateral damage" to deflect outside criticism IF/WHEN someone fucks up and kills bystanders or gets the target wrong, but INSIDE the military you can kiss your ass goodbye - unless you've already reached O-8 where you've got subordinate commanders you can shift the blame onto - and at that level it's politicians, not soldiers. Someone in the chain of command is going to get handed the shit sandwich and forced to eat it.

    The U.S. military tries to avoid "collateral damage" for practical reasons. It's messy and the U.S. military abhors "messy" - there's always blowback and it does encourage tit-for-tat retaliation.

    OTOH, you can't allow anyone to wage war against you with impunity. It makes the troops nervous & affects recruiting. Soleimani had been waging war against the U.S. for more than 20 years, but he finally overplayed his hand and became just a little too blatant about it.

    Again,
    What is the top commander of Iran's Revolutionary Guard Quds Force doing in Baghdad meeting with the commander of the Kata'ib Hezbollah militia just days after the Kata'ib Hezbollah militia tried to storm the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad?

    They could equally just step up from helping freedom fighters in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine etc to helping similar folk in the USA. Not providing weapons, obviously, but training and target suggestions. I'm thinking specifically of meme wars - rather than "Hillary is a bad person" start spamming out "here's why you should shoot up {vaguely plausible target}" type stuff. A few months of "Trump-related business is distributing Fentanyl" or whatever could noticeably increase the mass shooting rate in the US. Or do an FBI-style "make your own terrorist" operation but arrange to have a real bomb that really blows up. For extra points use real FBI agents to do 90% of the work. (actually, for real bonus points hack the FBI and use their real "make our own terrorist" operations)

    It's called Stochastic Terrorism and "THEY" have already been doing that for years and years and years. Maybe you think that's a good idea, but I don't.

    427:

    Greg Tingey @ 316: JBS
    @ 272:Unpleasant, but, you may have a "legal" point. Whether it's moral or sensible is another story.
    @ 273: Being a reactionary theocrat does not exclude military or political competence, unfortunately - ask Old Noll Cromwell ....

    Never said it was a good idea - "legal", "moral" or "sensible" - just that I don't believe anyone in a position of power in Iran or China or anywhere else makes any distinction between Trumpolini's interests and the interests of the United States.

    They are not the same thing, but "THEY" don't care.

    There seems to be a widely shared view that "collateral damage" is only a bad thing when it's the result of a U.S. military action.

    428:

    Charlie Stross @ 317:

    "Don't know if that's something that happened recently to the U.K. military. I only know about the U.S. military. (Cuts to VA medical benefits.)"

    It's not something that would be even relevant in the UK; we have the NHS (although the Tories are doing their best to privatise the back end of it). Martin can probably provide additional information on post-deployment rehab and disability assistance, but AIUI veterans are in the same basket as everybody else, i.e. free healthcare (modulo some important tweaks: a prescription tax in England -- flat rate per item, with an annual ceiling: similar for basic dentistry -- and you pay for glasses). The gotcha is that due to chronic underfunding (thanks, Tories!) mental health services are in perpetual crisis, so people who joined up at 18, served for years (so no non-institutional living skills) and sustained mental injuries in service (e.g. PTSD) simply don't get the support they need and end up homeless/on the street.

    Yeah, we don't have National Health to fall back on. Oddly enough, I can see an eye doctor and get glasses from the VA, but not basic dentistry (or any dentistry at all) even though my broken teeth were service related. I broke them eating in the "dining facility" in Iraq. I could have had them all extracted at REFRAD, but I would still have had to pay for my own dentures (which I did pay for the partial upper that replaces some of the broken ones).

    429:

    I will now, shortly, try "A Succession of Bad Days" - it's certainly DIFFERENT. As different as Hannu Rajaniemi's work if easier to at least part understand ....

    Yeah, cross nanotechnology with The Witches of Karres...

    430:
    My grandfather was a British soldier in Ireland during the Troubles. Volunteer, not conscript, so I presume what you would call a professional soldier. His section came under fire from a sniper. Sergeant down, and the Tommies panicking because they were getting shot at and they couldn't return fire

    They "couldn't" return fire, IIRC, because the rules of engagement prevented it.

    After Bloody Sunday - the Derry one, and I have to specify because neither "the Bloody Sunday massacre conducted by the British Army" nor "the Bloody Sunday massacre in Northern Ireland" are specific enough - the British Army finally learned firing indiscriminately at civilians (it only took ~70 years) was bad PR and good recruitment for the opposition and put in place orders to reflect that.

    If members of the British Army had been reluctant to fire indiscriminately at civilians, how come Bloody Sunday happened?

    431:

    anonemouse Actually, I THINK it was, to say the least, "frowned upon" ... but it only wants ONE junior Officer or NCO to lose their cool 7/or panic ( After all SOMEIONE is firing AT YOU! ) & all sorts of shit breaks loose .... yes?

    432:

    Don't know, don't use chrome. Firefox: preferences-> advanced -> security -> manage data. You can search for text in names. One thing - the window needs to be big enough. I have ff covering about 30% of my screen, and it needs to be bigger, to see the buttons that read "remove all" or "remove selected"... and this is on a freakin' 24" screen. The morons seem to be coding for mobiles, where the only choice is full screen.

    433:

    Wait a minute, there are things you can't do in fiction, because no one would believe them... that occur in the real world.

    434:

    What on EARTH were they feeding you?

    435:

    Stochastic terrorism: and the reason we can't shut down Faux "News", and charge Bill O'Reilly with stochastic terrorism and incitement to commit murder (for the women's healthcare provider in Kansas) is...?

    Y'know, in the trials after WWII, the US prosecutor noted we weren't prosecuting (in general) the ordinary soldiers, we were prosecuting the scum who gave the orders.

    And I see, far too often, only low levels getting their ass handed to them, or charged. I'm working hard to remember someone higher than, say, Lt. Calley, charged.

    436:

    I think you missed the point that I'd originally made: "Re: ... the simplest way for the rest of the world to deal with this mess is to stop funding Trump and the Republicans."

    This was specifically to note that if you want the current administration to stop stupidly getting the US into wars that will result in destruction of your interest by professional demolitions' experts getting PTSD while doing the bidding of stupid and evil people, then there's a solution:

    Stop fscking with US elections.

    Or, if you do, help to elect Democrats across the board. It's not that democrats are immune from corruption, it's that they're a lot more sane about it.

    This has nothing to do with how the US funds its MIC from within. That's a different problem.

    437:

    Geoff Hart @ 322: Charlie noted: "If true this also makes Trump a foreign agent of influence and, depending on what his instructions were, quite possibly guilty of treason, although proving that one without Kremlin insider cooperation would be quite a reach."

    That and the whole "giving aid and comfort to an enemy of the state" (i.e., Russia), which seems an open and shut case. But I'm told by an American who seems credible that in the U.S., treason only applies in the legal context of a declared war, and that this is why the Democrats haven't attempted to try Trump for treason.

    This is far outside my area of expertise, so confirmation would be welcomed.

    Caveat: IANAL.

    Because too many commenters on the internet bandy about accusations of "Treason", I've actually given it a good bit of thought and done what research I can on the subject through the internet. I looked into it most recently when someone was suggesting Julian Assange could be charged, tried & convicted of treason if he were extradited to the U.S. He couldn't. You have to be a citizen or person otherwise subject to U.S. jurisdiction at the time of your "overt act" for it to be treason.

    "The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors."
              Article II, Section 4
    "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."
              Article III, Section 3, Paragraph 1

    Although based on the U.K.'s Treason Statute at the time the Constitution was adopted, the Constitution eliminates all but two of the specifics "levying War" and "adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort". The Constitution also sets a high bar for proof of Treason, requiring two witnesses to an overt act of levying war or adhering to the enemy OR the accused must get on the witness stand and confess Treason in OPEN COURT. Finally, the Constitution (Article III, Section 3, Paragraph 2) restricts Congress from expanding the definition of Treason. The only way they could do so is by amending the Constitution.

    It does not matter whether there is a declared war or not, nor even if there IS a war.

    Congress (and by this is meant specifically the House of Representatives) can IMPEACH Donald Trump for treason without him ever being criminally charged with the crime by the DoJ. Impeachment does NOT require two witnesses or confession in open court because it is NOT a criminal proceeding.

    The Senate could "convict" him on an impeachment charge of treason. But this results ONLY in his removal from office and a lifetime ban on ever again holding any position of trust under the United States Government. He would NOT go to prison or be whisked off to Gitmo.

    For that to happen he would have to be indicted, tried AND CONVICTED in criminal court, where the Constitution does require the two witnesses and/or confession in open court.

    The problem with charging Trumpolini with "treason" for his dealings with Putin and Russia is that almost all of the possible witnesses against him are technically co-conspirators and have no interest (self, financial or otherwise) in ratting him out.

    Researching the subject, I only came up with thirty-one instances in which someone has been charged with Treason against the United States in the two and a quarter centuries since the ratification of the Constitution. And in the case of the eight conspirators convicted in the assassination of Abraham Lincoln, I'm not sure if they were charged with Treason or not, even though their trials are frequently cited examples. The specifications included "traitorously conspiring", but never explicitly states a charge of Treason.

    Of those thirty-one cases where persons were charged with Treason - one person was acquitted, four persons had their charges dropped, two persons charged in absentia during WWII died before they could be taken into custody & stand trial and one person was committed to a mental institution as unfit to stand trial. The charges against that person just faded away before he could be determined to be fit to stand trial & he was eventually released from that institution.

    That leaves twenty-three persons convicted of Treason (including the eight conspirators in the Lincoln assassination that I'm not absolutely sure were charged with Treason).

    Three of those convicted of treason had their charges and/or convictions overturned by the U.S. Supreme court - two on the basis that "levying war" does not mean "conspiracy to levy war", there must be an actual overt act of war and one on the basis that "adhering to ... enemies, giving them aid and Comfort" must have two witnesses to an OVERT act, just talking to an enemy of the United States is not enough, the prosecution must prove that you knew they were an enemy, that you talked to them about providing "aid and comfort" and there have to be two witnesses to you doing so.

    Eight of the persons who were convicted of Treason were pardoned by U.S. Presidents - two by George Washington, four by Andrew Johnson (Lincoln conspirators), one by John F. Kennedy and one by Gerald R. Ford. Seven persons served out their sentences (including one person whose death sentence was commuted to life in prison), three of that seven were subsequently deported.

    Only five persons have been "convicted" of Treason and executed. All during the U.S. Civil War, and all were "convicted" by military tribunals. The U.S. has not executed anyone for Treason since 1865. Since those Civil War tribunals, the U.S. Supreme Court issued a decision, Ex parte Milligan, declaring the trial of civilians before military tribunals to be unconstitutional if civilian courts are still open.

    [Side Note: The "9/11" tribunals are predicated on the idea civilian courts are not open to "unlawful combatants". That contention has been under continuous litigation since the military tribunals were set up and are still being challenged in U.S. courts. It's a long, slow process.]

    The last person convicted of Treason in the U.S. was Tomoya Kawakita, a U.S. born Japanese who worked in Japanese defense factories during WWII and was accused of Treason for "adhering to ... enemies, giving them aid and Comfort" by abusing U.S. POWs forced to work as slave labor under his supervision. He was convicted in 1948 and sentenced to death. His case was appealed to the SCOTUS who affirmed his conviction (the only Treason case ever affirmed by the SCOTUS), his conviction was commuted to life in prison by President Eisenhower. In 1963, in one of his last official acts before his assassination, John F. Kennedy ordered Kawakita released from prison and deported to Japan.

    The most interesting case I found was that of Martin Monti, an Army Air Force officer who defected to Germany in 1944 handing over a stolen F-5E (reconnaissance version of the P-38 Lightning). Failing as a propaganda broadcaster, he was commissioned into the Waffen-SS as an Untersturmführer. He surrendered to U.S. forces in Italy at war's end.

    In 1946 he was arrested, tried and convicted of desertion and sentenced to 15 years in prison. His sentence was suspended and he was allowed to enlist in the Army Air Force as a private. He was honorably discharged as a Sergeant in 1948. "Within minutes" of his discharge, he was arrested by the FBI and charged with Treason. He pleaded guilty in 1949. The court could not accept his guilty plea until he testified in OPEN COURT admitting to all the charges and stating under oath that he had done so voluntarily. Monti is the only person to be convicted of Treason on the basis of Confession in open Court

    Monti was sentenced to twenty-five years in prison, but was paroled after serving eleven. He died in 2000.

    438:

    Interesting comment from FB that is probably pareidolia, but interesting nonetheless.

    --On December 30, Trump and Putin have a private phone call. No one knows what they talked about, although there's an official version.

    --Soleimani was assassinated January 3

    --The Russian stock market keeps hitting new highs. Its close ally Iran being thrown into crisis and possibly a war with the US has affected it not at all.

    --Oh, and Putin's considered by some to be the world's richest man (US $200 billion???), if only because the lines between what he personally controls and what the Russian state controls are very blurry. What he does can easily impact the Russian stock market.

    There are three competing narratives here. --One is the question of who's calling the shots. Russia and Iran are increasingly close allies, presumably against the US. It's weird that a major blow against Iran didn't reflect on the MOEX (Russian stock exchange). What, if anything, is Putin doing? --A second is who's calling the shots in the US. Constitutionally it's Congress, but since 1949, the possibility of nuclear war has meant effectively that the President can act unilaterally. Congress has been unwilling to rein this power in for decades, perhaps because too many of them think they can get it. We're now seeing the clear breakdown of the constitutional system with an increasingly dictatorial President unilaterally trying to start a war and only some democrats trying to stop it. --The third question is whether Putin ordered Trump to snuff Soleimani. I don't see why he would have, but then there's the weird behavior of the MOEX after the assassination. Was that Trump following orders and Russian investors in the know being happy about it? Or are the two events (assassination and stock market) unrelated?

    As I said, it could be conspiracy, it could be pareidolia, and it's very hard to tell.

    This does matter, because the problem with a war on Iran is whether China or Russia get pulled in on the side of Iran, due to their treaty obligations. Is there a reason that Putin would instigate such a war?

    439:

    Scott Sanford @ 323: American law very specifically defines the crime of treason; many people have done things they shouldn't but have not committed treason under the exact legal definition.

    The American citizenry had to look up the text of the law and discuss this back in 2016 when some damn lunatic went on television and asked Russia to commit espionage against a cabinet member. That's in pretty poor taste but after hashing out the various possible legal problems it turns out not to be technically illegal.

    Stupid, yes. Disloyal to the country (if you're American), yes. Inciting disorder, sure. Reasonable cause for the FBI to have a stern talk with someone, I'd say so. But not, under the exact letter of the law, treasonous or even illegal.

    Not treason, but yes it is illegal. Campaign finance laws bar foreign governments from contributing to candidates in American Federal elections; this includes "in kind" contributions whether tangible or intangible (publishing an opponent's hacked emails would be an example of an intangible "in kind" contribution).

    Those same campaign finance laws make it illegal to solicit contributions from a foreign government.

    440:

    Your assumption is understandable... and wrong.

    "We have concluded that the explanation for such firing by Support Company soldiers after they had gone into the Bogside was in most cases probably the mistaken belief among them that republican paramilitaries were responding in force to their arrival in the Bogside. This belief was initiated by the first shots fired by Lieutenant N" -- Principal Conclusions and Overall Assessment of the Bloody Sunday Inquiry, 2010

    441:

    As far as what Suleimani was doing in Baghdad - apparently he was there to pick up and relay a message to Tehran, a proposal to cool things down with the Saudis. That's what the Iraqi government is saying, and they're also saying it was based on a call from the US. There's clearly a lot missing - mostly on the US side - but it's certainly possible: Suleimani had been in Syria and Lebanon, and Baghdad would have been on the route back to Tehran.

    442:

    Jar @ 332:

    "He was also an enemy belligerent IN UNIFORM and as such was a legitimate MILITARY target, and the timing strongly suggests he was engaged in belligerent activities against the U.S. at the time he was killed."

    Ah, I had the stupid idea that in order to openly kill members of your adversary’s military command you should be in an open war with them. Oh, sorry. Apparently, USA thinks that they are in war with Iran.

    I don't think it's a stupid idea. It just doesn't take into account that Iran has been waging an undeclared proxy war against the U.S. for the last 40 years.

    It seems to me there is a misconception that Iran's proxys, such as Kata'ib Hezbollah, and their controllers in the Iranian military, must be allowed to attack U.S. interests with impunity and that their overseer must be off limits just because Congress has not declared war on Iran. You don't need a declared war to strike back at someone who is making war on you.

    Trumpolini's an idiot and he's mishandled Iran from the get-go. We never should have pulled out of the Iran Nuclear Deal, which I think was working. For one thing it appears to me to have directly provoked Iran's escalation of their proxy wars against the U.S. which resulted in Kata'ib Hezbollah attempting to storm the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad.

    But, given that Kata'ib Hezbollah did attempt to storm the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad, I don't see the strike against the man who gave them their marching orders as unreasonable. Especially since it appears he was there to coordinate future attacks on U.S. personnel in Iraq. It may not have been smart, but it wasn't a war crime.

    It was a targeted strike against a SELF DECLARED ENEMY BELLIGERENT who was ACTIVELY ENGAGED IN WAGING WAR against the U.S. at the time the U.S. struck back.

    443:

    whitroth @ 345: We could destroy the country - think of Iraq before the invasion, with war criminal Cheney's "shock and awe" - but I agree, there's no way we could invade.

    There are plenty of ways we could invade. There's just none of them that lead to a successful occupation.

    444:

    1) Everyone has suddenly become experts on Iran 2) They know shit all and most of them work for dubious Think Tanks Like Judith Miller, who's been on TV recently? [1] 3) Can you see in the dark? A bit. I often don't like what I see. (sigh)

    Saw a powerpoint deck in 2005 that slammed home (to me) the complexities of Iranian politics: The View From Tehran (Mehrzad Boroujerdi, 2005?) He mostly writes books: google scholar, Mehrzad Boroujerdi This 2018 one looks interesting (especially for anyone with time and ability to do a deep dive before punditing about Iran.) "Postrevolutionary Iran: A Political Handbook", Mehrzad Boroujerdi, Kourosh Rahimkhani, 2018/6/5, Syracuse University Press

    [1] She "spent 85 days in jail for refusing to reveal that her source in the Plame Affair was Scooter Libby." (wikipedia)

    445:

    Troutwaxer noted "I wouldn't expect to feed myself and family out of my back yard".

    I read "agricultural collapse" (the starting point for this set of related posts) in terms of weather conditions becoming sufficiently unpredictable that it's not clear anymore when it's safe to plant crops (i.e., what date you can bet that on average, the weather won't kill them or sterilize their flowers). In that context, you can expect to start losing an increasing frequency of crops grown outdoors both for professional farmers and for home gardeners. Here in Montreal, conventional wisdom while I was growing up was that it wasn't safe to plant garden vegetables before ca. 18 May for fear of losing them to a late-spring frost. For about a decade, local weather's been so weird that all bets are off.

    We're already starting to see localized crop failures; we've had them in the past few years for apples in Quebec and blueberries in Nova Scotia, for instance, due to spring frosts, and there was significant hail damage to wheat in our prairies region last year. These incidents will increase in frequency and scope as the climate changes. One of my pet peri-retirement projects is to convince local governments to start taking this problem seriously and develop a food security plan that they can prototype on a small scale to confirm that they could support large-scale deployment in an emergency. Given our insanely large crop surpluses in Canada, this is a tough slog. But IMHO, I think it's one we need to be doing NOW.

    446:

    whitroth @ 360: The US and war... and conscription. Just yesterday, I saw an article - apparently a *LOT* of people are asking what the draft boards, still in existence in the US, are doing. They say that it's business as usual, and to start conscripting, Congress would have to pass a law.

    That's NOT going to happen. Some of you remember, or have read, about the size and effect of the anti-war Movement in the sixties and seventies (all true, or maybe more than you've thought - I was part of it), and if you thought the Women's March was bad news for the GOP....

    I don't think what happened with the Vietnam War anti-war movement is a good predictor for what some future U.S. Government might do vis-a-vis "the draft". If a resumption of the draft had been included it the U.S.A.P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act after 9/11, it would have passed overwhelmingly ... especially if Iraq had been responsible for it and there really had been evidence Saddam was working on WMD.

    447:

    Martin @ 373: After years of opposition to first-person shooters, my wife eventually sided with my sons and allowed them to buy “CoD”. Last night, youngest son finally persuaded me to play it for the first time - and I found it very frustrating. My senses were limited (hearing wasn’t particularly directional, everything was far too dark, field of vision was too narrow and I couldn’t turn my “head” quickly or accurately enough).

    For me, it was... uncanny valley levels of unrealistic. Or maybe, I’m just rubbish with the game controller (my skills at control don’t match my expectation).

    Anyway, I’ve got to go to the range this week to shoot some targets for the County team (I still compete at a local level in smallbore target rifle); I’m the opposite of you, I’m a gun owner who isn’t a gun enthusiast...

    I haven't played the latest Call of Duty which I understand is a "more realistic" remake of the earlier CoD: Modern Warfare series. I kind of fell out of it with Black Ops II because I'm rubbish at controlling the drones you have to use to advance the storyline. There's just one point I couldn't get past even playing it as dumbed down as far as it would go. The drone would always get overwhelmed & I'd get killed. I'm playing with mouse & keyboard. I've seen the game played on consoles and I'd be even more hopeless trying to use a game controller.

    I've been playing a game called Arma 3 which is supposed to be a highly realistic military sim. It can be, but it also has room for ZOMBIES, so how "realistic" can it really be? Maybe someday if they manage to make haptic full immersion VR a reality.

    I don't know how much of a gun enthusiast I am. I like machines and guns are interesting machines. I liked shooting when I was in the Army and being nearsighted it was always satisfying when I could knock down the 400m target out on the range, especially shooting with iron sights.

    But I'm not a gun enthusiast enough to endure the bother of owning a gun and I don't agree with extreme interpretations of the 2nd Amendment, especially those that try to divorce the two clauses (well REGULATED militia & right to keep and bear arms). You have to take both parts. I don't hate guns & shooting on the range was fun. But there really are a lot of people out there who should not have them, and regulation is NOT infringement.

    448:

    ... You know what, I am going to put this out there just so I can say "I told you so" in the event this little scenario plays out.

    A Few Points: 1:Russia no longer has a surface navy worth the name. Its subs are still mostly in working order, but the surface combatants are a joke.

    2: The USA has followed the exact same playbook for all its wars for decades now.

    3: Iran has known they were going to be targeted by this playbook at some point for decades.

    Conclusion: Putin told his stooge to do this because the US is about to flat out loose a war.

    Iran got kh-55s from Ukraine back in 2001, and based of that design, they designed the Soumar cruise missile. Here are two important facts about the Soumar cruise missile that are public knowlege. 1: It is ground launched without much in the way of required supporting facilities. 2: it has longer range than the combat radius of the f-35.

    Here is a theory I am guessing at, but which Putin probably knows for a fact.

    Iran has well in excess of a thousand of them. They are cheap to build, and here is another, obvious, public fact. The Aegis screen of a carrier group, and the close in weapon systems all rely on quite limited stocks of expendables. You dont need hypersonic, stealthy, or dodging missiles to kill a carrier group.

    You just need enough missiles. The f-35 might be invisible and invincible, but the hunk of metal it launches from is a cant-miss target.

    449:

    whitroth @ 375: I dunno if that is a good idea.

    "It's always the old to lead us to the war
    It's always the young to fall
    Now look at all we've won with the saber and the gun
    Tell me is it worth it all"
    - "I Ain't Marchin' Any More", Phil Ochs.

    Maybe if we did shoot them, they'd be a little less eager to start wars. Hell, I thin I remember a Bill Mauldin cartoon, of leaders in a ring with baseball bats, and all the troops standing around rooting.

    Ochs also wrote a far more realistic anti-war song:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFFOUkipI4U

    450:

    All I can say is that we're gardening anyway, with careful attention to trying to plant some stuff that does a good job sequestering carbon. And we'd like to be practised enough at the art/science of gardening that we can get at least some nutrition out of our own yards if necessary.

    451:

    Elderly Cynic @ 434: What on EARTH were they feeding you?

    Regular food, but the workers preparing it sometimes didn't do such a good job of screening out gravel. Green beans once, mashed potatos once and turkey w/gravy twice. The DFAC was contracted to KBR Haliburton & they brought in cooks from Thailand.

    452:

    Yo, we've been in undeclared proxy wars since the 1940s or so. That was the mainstay of the Cold War. The problem with hot wars in a nuclear era is that whole thing about escalation up to the point of nuclear exchanges.

    Escalating from a cold war to a shooting war with a country that has major ties to two nuclear powers (Russia and China) and which is on the verge of nuclear arms itself, with a military that's overstretched and worn out, is extremely problematic.

    The other part is that declaring a war without Congressional approval is yet another impeachable offense. Yes, he's not going to be removed from office by the Senate, but the thing to remember is that most Americans aren't republicans. It looks really good in an election when a President who's impeached for breaking the law not only keeps breaking the law, but decides to become a dictator as well, to see if he can make that stick.

    It's a stupid mess. If Trump had done nothing, McConnell could have given him his show trial and this whole mess would blow over to the election. Instead he ramped up. He's kind of like the crook who, because he took of from a traffic stop, is now speeding down the road and shooting at people, because he figures he was going to jail. With the traffic stop, he wasn't going to jail. He may well be now. Or worse.

    Also, do remember that the Iranians are not criminals, and an undeclared war is not a war. Using the language of "legitimate target" and all the other pro-war BS feeds into the narrative of those who want war, rather than analyzing it dispassionately, which is what we need at the moment.

    453:

    I think Trump could end up being the first president to lose a major fleet, then throw a nuclear tantrum over doing so.

    454:

    I think bad actions are the exceptions. Based on what I've heard in general and from a Marine sniper who did a tour there involving lots of multi-day foot patols. They were not allowed to fire back unless they could see the PERSON shooting. So a fav tactic of the local bad guys was to fire from inside a village hut with "regular folks" outside. The marines were not allowed to shoot back. Even if they saw the muzzle flash.

    455:

    They "couldn't" return fire, IIRC, because the rules of engagement prevented it.

    It depends. IF there's a clearly identifiable firer, and they continue to be a threat to life, then you can fire. However, what the specialist firing ranges in Lydd and Sennelager teach you is that you have to be damn careful about it. You definitely can't shoot at the crowd (some of the ranges show the difficulties of identifying where the firer is; it's actually unlikely that the firer is within the crowd, even if the troops were convinced of it)

    If members of the British Army had been reluctant to fire indiscriminately at civilians, how come Bloody Sunday happened?

    In short, because 1 PARA.

    The Parachute Regiment pride themselves on being selective, on being independently-minded / supporting initiative, and on being aggressive. Which is great, for shock troops and for light-role infantry (see: 9 PARA on D-Day). Unfortunately, the whole "we're special, the rest of you are 'hats'" thing gets tedious after about five seconds (I should note that it's more of a "baby Para" thing, the older and wiser ones don't do it); and they occasionally screw up when it comes to situations where the answer isn't "more aggression" (unfortunately, this is often only obvious in hindsight).

    On Bloody Sunday, the other battalions actually listened to the Brigade Commander and didn't disobey his explicit orders. Their Company Commanders listened to what their CO told them. Their Platoon Commanders didn't over-reach and then decide that they should be firing "warning shots" (big no-no, not part of RoE [1]). And their junior NCOs didn't decide that they could murder people with impunity (IIRC, nearly half the deaths were caused by a single four-man team).

    Then, 1990: a patrol from 3 PARA decides that they know how to deal with joyriders; and employ lethal force. Getting spotted with a poster in your accommodation that proudly reads "Vauxhall Astra: Built by Robots. Driven by joyriders. Stopped by A Company" doesn't look good. Not when the police officer accompanying the patrol makes a statement that after the shooting, they announced that one of the patrol was "it" and kicked him in the leg to create a bruise so that they could claim that the car had been driven at the patrol (justifying the shooting as an attempt to prevent a threat to life). Two dead teenagers.

    Now to 1992 and Coalisland [2]. Some of 3 PARA decide that the locals need "taught a lesson" after one of their mates is severely wounded, go mob-handed into a Republican bar, and beat up the drinkers. Long story short, the Brigade Commander was sacked, and the CO and RSM of 3 PARA were sacked.

    Meanwhile, all of the other infantry units in Northern Ireland are busy working hard at not using lethal force, less than discriminately.

    [1] To paraphrase Yoda, what's taught was "Do, or do not: There is no warning shot". That's not to say they're never the wrong thing to do.

    [2] The wiki page is inaccurate - my friend was the platoon commander of the first KOSB patrol into the village a week later (it was his Sergeant's multiple), and it certainly didn't happen as described on wikipedia. Mind you, we did spend the next few years taking the piss out of him for losing a GPMG. He kept pointing out that they recovered it a week later, alongside another one, and that 100% interest rates for a short-term loan aren't that bad.

    456:

    About gardening:

    Here are some ideas:

    If you're worried about the weather, implement the Andean solution: --Invest in storage and in crops that store well, because the more you have in store, the better you can do with crop failure. --Invest in resilient gardening, which means you grow multiple varieties of things rather than one highly productive variety, so that you have an excellent chance of getting something, rather than a reasonable chance of doing well and an equally reasonable chance of losing the entire crop. Done right, this also allows you to get "land races" and "heirloom crops" adapted to your local conditions. That is, if you save the seeds. --Network with many other gardeners at some distance and share resources, so that you're not all getting wiped out together. --Oh, and take this with a grain of salt, because Andean farmers are suffering from climate change right now too.

    As for carbon farming, there are two big components: --Most of the carbon is in the trunk or the roots. It's tissue mass, which scales as tissue volume. Big old trees are good for it, if you can keep them alive long enough. For fast uptake, bamboo's among the best, but you've got to figure out what you're going to do with the bamboo after you grow it to keep the carbon within from going back into the air (make it into charcoal and bury that?). Anyway, plant more trees, rather than annual crops. --Soil can hold more carbon than plant material, assuming it's not disturbed and you don't get one of those annoying things where soil respiration with increasing temperature blows carbon back into the air. The key thing is to minimize disturbance of soil to keep stuff breaking down inside it. That means no till with a vengeance, as well as hugelkultur and similar weirdnesses.

    --For a habitat garden, look up the work of Doug Tallamy. The tl;dr version is that pollinator and bird gardens generally feed the adults, rather than the juveniles. Birds desperately need places where they can get lots of little (read moth) caterpillars, small spiders, and similar soft insects they feed to their babies. Many of the caterpillars that escape this fate end up as pollinators. If you want birds and butterflies (and other pollinators) around, you need to cut out the insecticides entirely (except for carefully targeted special treatments) and grow plants (like oaks and cherries) that get munched heavily by caterpillars. The solution to dealing with the "unsightly" leaf damage from the caterpillars is to ignore it. We're generally talking tiny species here, so chances are, you didn't notice it in the first place. If you do notice it, Tallamy's got a "12-step" plan to deal: step back 12 paces, and the damage will be invisible.

    Can you do all three in a tiny garden? No, so you need to figure out which services you can provide. Neighborhoods need pollinators and insectivorous birds to help keep other gardens healthy too, so you are providing services even if you aren't growing much of your own food.

    457:

    Troutwaxer replied: "All I can say is that we're gardening anyway"

    Didn't say that you shouldn't... just pointing out that it's not the kind of solution we can rely on in coming years. That's why I'm big on getting the government moving on an "if worse comes to worst" plan.

    Heteromeles provided good advice, but on a national scale, I think the solution will be industrial-scale factory farms (i.e., indoor farming, where you can protect the crop under a strong roof). Greenhouses are likely to be more vulnerable to extreme weather (e.g., hail, really strong winds) without significant redesign.

    458:

    Crude oil tops $70 as US-Iran tensions escalate - from CNN this afternoon. And, as I just filled up at a Sunoco, IIRC, they're up about six cents at the pump since last week.

    459:

    TJ Putin told his stooge to do this Meaning, VP told Trump to do this, yes? Just for clarification.... And yes, if a US supercarrier & some of its escorts make bubbling noises, life is going to get "interesting" .....

    Heteromeles ONE: See my earlier post on ranges of varieties & species grown, yes? TWO: you need to cut out the insecticides entirely If you MUST use one, use diluted washing-up liquid - biodegrades quickly & only kills what it touches directly. Very good for large blackfly & greenfly infestations, incidentally. Meanwhile the (very tame) robins down on my plot are munching away every time "their" human turns up & disturbs the soil ....

    460:

    Re: ' ... most Americans aren't republicans'

    Too bad they don't get a vote in the Electoral College.

    Sorta related to that: Any idea how the re-districting looks since the 2016 election? (I tried googling 'number of redrawn districts since 2016' but got mostly op-eds.)

    Census & redistricting - 2020 is a census year (basic info is used for re-districting) and although DT's request to add a citizenship question has been quashed, a lot of people remain afraid that their personal info might be at risk therefore may not fill out their census form. [Just watched John Oliver's segment on the census - see below.] Apart from the redistricting, I'm wondering whether DT's request might still give him what he/the GOP want: an excuse to cut more social programs. Because if a lot of immigrants/folks who fear gov't authorities do not participate in this year's census, the results would likely show a reduction in certain types of demographically driven community and infrastructure needs. DT/the GOP could then point to these incomplete results and say: according to the latest census, we have far fewer people than the media/DEMs claim who need xxx assistance, therefore we're in the right to cut this program.

    The Census: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver (HBO) - [Posted Nov 17/19]

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aheRpmurAo

    461:

    indoor farming

    If you compare the amount of floorspace the amount of farmed land the numbers are not good. A hint comes in the units - 1000m2 for floor space and hectares=10,000m2 for farmland.

    German has about 1,500 square kilometres of non-residential buildings[1] and about 16,000,000 square kilometres of farmland.

    Somehow more buildings and increased efficiency would need to make up that factor of 10,000 difference. Removing livestock entirely would help a lot, but it wouldn't be enough. Especially since those buildings would mostly need to be insulated and air-conditioned rather than just plastic sheeting greenhouses. You're looking at about €5M/hectare to build those.

    [1] "Breakdown of floor areas by non-residential sub-sector" summed across from: http://www.entranze.enerdata.eu/#/share-of-non-residential-in-total-buildings-floor-area.html [2] http://en.worldstat.info/Europe/Germany/Land [3] http://www.warehousematch.com/en/building-cost-calculator/#resultaat

    462:

    German has about 1,500 square kilometres of non-residential buildings[1] and about 16,000,000 square kilometres of farmland.

    Somehow I don't think Germany (total land area: 357,386 km^2) has 16M km^2 of farmland. (That's about 95% of the land area of Russia.)

    463:

    She was also a cheerleader for the Iraq invasion. She bought every lie that she was told about it.

    464:

    Your lord only got your children if you died while they were minors (if you were a peasant, he probably wouldn't bother). Then they became his wards, and he was responsible for their welfare. The entire "noctis primis" bit is invented based on some places in Europe.

    465:

    My parents were told, when they moved to west Texas, that there was usually a freeze around Easter, so wait till after that to plant the garden. (It's also usually quite windy in April and May, in that area. Plowing fields tends to result in what the EPA thinks is unhealthy air, because of the particulate levels.)

    466:

    Sorry, I was trying to copy and calculate, then realised that the source figures I had for France were out by 1000x maybe so switched to Germany and bollixed it up.

    357,021 total square kilometres, about half farmland = 160,000km2

    About 1,500 square kilometres of non-residential buildings

    = factor of 100 (not 10,000)

    467:

    I see that Supreme Leader has announced he will target Iranian cultural sites for destruction. Kind of dying to see how JBS justifies that type of atrocity but hoping he never has to.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/06/donald-trump-threat-iran-cultural-sites-grotesque-war-crimes

    468:

    If you're in a rural area, put in a windbreak on the appropriate side(s) of the lot. The best ones have at least three rows: something like sandplums for low-level protection on the outside while the trees are getting established, then smaller trees for the next row, and also the 4th row, and something like pines that are slower-growing and will block wind to ground level for 15 or 20 years at least. It improves the microclimate inside, and will take carbon out. (Sandplum fruit makes excellent jelly.)

    469:

    Any idea how the re-districting looks since the 2016 election? (I tried googling 'number of redrawn districts since 2016' but got mostly op-eds.)

    Likely to turn into a blood sport.

    Read this or similar: https://www.npr.org/2020/01/05/785672201/deceased-gop-strategists-daughter-makes-files-public-that-republicans-wanted-sea

    then start digging https://www.thehofellerfiles.com/

    Lots of embarrassing and maybe illegal plans in those files.

    And with these lawyers can now sue his partner to get what is missing. Discovery works really well when you can be fairly exact in your requests based on other documents.

    Is discovery in lawsuits a thing outside of the US?

    470:

    He's getting a lot of verbal pushback (and not much support, outside of his fans), because one thing most people know is that that's a war crime. And quite a few of us would send that entire lot to the Hague, with or without the ICC having been ratified by the US.

    BTW, 20 firefighters from Angeles National Forest are on the way to Australia - they're very good at their jobs - and 50 or so more from other national forests are also on the way. And Jose Andres has sent people from World Central Kitchen, to help feed people.

    471:

    At the risk of spamming, The Weekly Sift has some very relevant commentary:

    Here are a couple of things I didn’t get around to mentioning: A key feature of both Iraq wars is that we had allies, like Bush’s famous “coalition of the willing”. But we’re pretty much without allies here. There are three main reasons for this:

    • Since he took office, Trump has been alienating our allies in ways ranging from insults to tariffs.
    • He consulted none of them before assassinating Soleimani. Any country that gets behind Trump now is signing up for whatever future action pops into his head.
    • He’s made it pretty clear that he intends to commit war crimes, like bombing cultural sites. ... Foreign leaders contemplating allying with Trump have to consider the possibility that they’re making a date with the International Criminal Court in The Hague.

    https://weeklysift.com/2020/01/06/realizations/

    472:

    "...And now my wife is really worried"

    Perhaps you should ease her worries and put that fourth rewrite on hold, it should give you enough free time to start that long delayed follow up to Glasshouse.

    473:

    And Jose Andres has sent people from World Central Kitchen, to help feed people.

    {cries}

    We're allegedly a first world nation, yet we can't feed the climate refugees or even the firefighters in our own country. I'm not saying we don't need the help, or that I/we are not incredibly grateful for anything we are given, just that we shouldn't need it.

    Part of the reason we need help so urgently is that our governments made conscious decisions to downplay first the scale and probability of the coming catastrophe, then to distract-deny-delay the response once it happened. Because a sensible response would mean admitting that global heating has created the situation.

    It is worth noting that Australia is among the worst climate criminals and that position is enthusiastically embraced by most of the voters in this country. It's not just the right wing, the reason the left wing party hasn't got rational policies either is that there's a strong left/brown strand in our politics. We* voted for what is happening, knowing what was going to happen, and we decided that the faint possibility of a weaker economy far outweighed the almost certainty of climate catastrophe.

    (* as the joke goes "we, kemo sabe?")

    474:

    We can always hope that Australia is the bad example that shakes the rest of us out of our comfort zone. Um, yeah.

    475:

    They "couldn't" return fire, IIRC, because the rules of engagement prevented it.

    They couldn't fire because soldiers don't shoot women and children.

    Maybe I wasn't clear — this wasn't an officer ordering the men not to fire — this was the men themselves not being able to bring themselves to kill civilians, because killing civilians was wrong.

    My fault in saying the Troubles — I didn't realize that that term only referred to the period after the 60s. This would have been after the Great War* but before my dad was born, so likely the Anglo-Irish War.

    *During which he fought in Europe, Palestine, and Greece (by his stories, might have been further north in the Balkans).

    476:

    Re: ' ... re-districting ? ' 'Likely to turn into a blood sport.

    Thanks for the links! (Explains why the op-eds turned up.)

    Re: 'Discovery'

    Of the impression that countries whose legal systems are based on English Common Law have 'discovery' as part of their procedures. Who does the 'discovery' seems to vary though.

    477:

    “ Soumar cruise missile. ”

    Doesn’t seem to have the radar required to hit a ship, these are designed to hit stationary ground targets. Unlike say the kh-22 which are specifically equipped with very good active radar homing

    You can’t just shoot a thousand dumb cruise missiles at the general vicinity of a carrier battle group and expect to hit anything

    Most of the carriers defense is you don’t know exactly where it is

    478:

    Re: 'war crimes, like bombing cultural sites. .'

    The UN passed a resolution a few years back saying that the deliberate destruction of cultural sites is a 'crime against humanity*'. Key point is that a 'crime against humanity' can be deemed to have occurred without a war having been officially declared. And the UN has the authority to forward such a matter to The Hague.

    https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=23981&LangID=E

    • I'm not picking nits, it's just that DT's such a weasel wrt legal language.
    479:

    I think the solution will be industrial-scale factory farms (i.e., indoor farming

    I moved to Vancouver last year, and the thing that's surprised me most is how many huge greenhouses there are in the region. We get windstorms, but never get much snow load.

    480:

    Crude oil tops $70 as US-Iran tensions escalate - from CNN this afternoon. And, as I just filled up at a Sunoco, IIRC, they're up about six cents at the pump since last week.

    An easy thing to forget is that commodities like oil have two prices; one is the market price -- that 70 USD/barrel -- and the other is the extraction price, how much it costs to get the commodity to market. Over time, the extraction price goes up -- there is no more twenty-dollars-a-barrel oil anywhere, no more Lake Superior iron ore, etc. -- and once the extraction price goes over the market price, the machinery of capitalism dismantles the industry, generally without anything detectable as a decision.

    Before that happens, there's a period of time in which the amount of money it's possible to make in the extractive industry shrinks; as the market price and the extraction price approach each other, the money to be made decreases.

    Russia is nearly purely a petrostate; their GDP has been shrinking for awhile, and Putin's domestic position is increasingly tenuous the longer it does so. Higher oil prices may be essential to Putin, not merely convenient.

    The motivations for war are generally rooted in economic causes, and this is no different. The US exists to be the oil empire; hardly anyone alive remembers when it wasn't. The machinery of state exists to keep it the oil empire, and it doesn't really know how to do anything else. Would it be a good idea to stop that, and do something else? Obviously so from the OPEC oil embargo forward. Is it possible? Increasingly obviously, no, not by regular political means.

    481:

    Theory is that the stockpile exists for the sole purpose of carrier killing, because carriers are the keystone of us force projection. They dont need radar for that, they just need radio - the carrier is an air-field. It is not quiet, and it cannot be so.

    482:

    They're also large and move slowly, plus around Iran they don't have a lot of places to be. So it's very vulnerable to solutions that are effectively brute force - you know the missiles will be heading to one or two general areas, and if the targeting is off by 200m that's not going to reassure anyone 200m away from where the missiles are going. Reprogramming all of them at the last minute with "area A, tend towards the SE side" is presumably a lot easier than completely random co-ordinates.

    483:

    Let me try again

    The carriers never go in the Persian gulf They stay at least 500 miles out in the Indian Ocean You DON’T KNOW WHERE IT IS It could be anywhere in ten thousand square miles of ocean

    This is not a new idea. This was the main Soviet attack plan except they had lots of subs and underwater sensors to FIND THE CARRiEr

    Do you get it?

    484:

    Theory's a bit demented.

    The USN is enormous; it has a lot of everything. It has more of any particular thing than anyone else does.

    The USN is overstretched and stressed -- it's too small for its tasking and it's got readiness issues -- because it's trying to be a global force projection mechanism with stability goals and it's functionally underfunded in ways that affect staffing. There's a lot of logistical constraint and stockpile management and a focus on the preservation of peace and resources.

    On a war footing, any single adversary getting into a conventional war with the USN gets obliterated, certainly at sea and probably on land. The point to the Iranian cruise missiles isn't "hah we can sink a carrier!", it's "we might be able to make this expensive enough they won't go for an amphibious landing/keep naval SEAD flights from opening us up for the B2s/keep them far enough offshore there's parts of the country out of the cruise missile coverage."

    Iran really doesn't want to get into a war; they would like the one they've been fighting for the last two generations to stop. They haven't been able to find a way to do that and keep existing, because -- like Cuba -- there's a strong US faction that wants them destroyed, and it's not a faction they can effectively hurt. As far as that specific faction is concerned, destroying Iran is free. As soon as they get enough control of the American machinery of state, there goes Iran.

    As deep into the Russian and Chinese strategic umbrellas as Iran has moved themselves isn't enough, and it's about as far as they can go and stay functionally independent. You can only deter sane people. They've got a real problem right now.

    485:

    Price of wti crude oil as of right now is $62 (it was around $60 when Soleimani was killed) and dropped 1% today

    Average Prices at the pump in the US have not moved

    Where are you liking that you see $70?

    486:

    The point is that Iran has agency, and while the details of past couple of years are godsdamn demented, the kind of future noone plans for, "The war hawks in Washington gets their way and then the US attacks us" has got to be threat one through nine of all of Iranian security thinking. And the US always wages war in the same way. Putting together a hard counter move if you can is obligatory if you are an Iranian general. Or in other words, I am very doubtful you can actually set hull in the Indian ocean without Iran knowing exactly where you are.

    487:

    Peter Pan is an exception. As far as I know, the exception. It's got a perpetual copyright under British Law, with all royalties being supplied to Great Ormond Street Hospital.

    Wait, hang on.

    What the FUCK?

    You can DO that?!

    Is this just some goddamn "oh they say so because royal family blah blah" bullshit or is that seriously an option that just only one person took?

    488:

    The reality is “putting together a hard counter” against a nation that spends twice as much on its military then the entire gdp of your country is pretty much impossible

    It didn’t work well for Saddam anyway

    As far as “always fights in the same way” you should tell that to Sulaimani as he was eating a hellfire from a robot plane, totally ww2 era stuff that

    The other thing to consider is the US has also had the same amount of time to figure out creative ways to “hard counter” Iran with a lot more reason to expect success. They did pretty well on the Iranian nuclear program for instance, which to this date is the single most successful cyber attack in the history of man

    489:

    It didn’t work well for Saddam anyway

    Remind me again how long it took Saddam to switch from "most favoured employee" to "worst enemy"? Because that's how long he had to prepare for that threat. Iran has had generations, they don't call the US "the Great Satan" because you're so deeply beloved there.

    And as mentioned a few times here Iran is more like "a bigger Afghanistan" than "East Iraq". But heck, the USA did so awesomely well remaking Afghanistan to its liking, Iran is bound to be an even bigger success.

    490:

    I prefer the "Hunt For Red October" line, you know, the "you've dropped so many sonobouys into the Denmark Straight that I could walk dry shod from Greenland to Iceland!" one.

    491:

    "They stay at least 500 miles out in the Indian Ocean You DON’T KNOW WHERE IT IS"

    This is the 21st century and Iran have their own photographic satellites.

    492:

    For those of you curious about what a 50°C day does to your garden, here's my "lawn" now...

    Apparently chlorophyll disintegrates at about 50 degrees so anything that doesn't have a good water supply stops being a plant. Sadly the grass isn't deep rooted enough to really survive, but the various plants that have nasty prickly seeds survive quite well. Note that the edge of the mulch is visible as a green line, but what's there is about 50% "woody weeds" rather than grass. Property is rented so I have to mow those, even though I much prefer them to the bindis.

    The baby fruit trees are losing leaves even though they have sunhats and get watered every day.

    493:

    Moz Presumably because the USA has no cultural sites at all, so no-one can retaliate? /snark @ 471 Even fucking crawler BOZO is twitchy about that one & is urging backing off .... @ 473 How long to the next AUS General Election? Will people remember? Will they vote Morrison & his criminals out, or will they continue to buy the "No climate change" lies? As in Because a sensible response would mean admitting that global heating has created the situation. - You tell us ....

    Heteromeles @ 474 No. Has to be in the USA - sea level rise in Florida, really bad outbreaks of something in Texas, California going down the tubes ... THEN there will be panic measures ... everywhere.

    Graydon CORRECTION: The US & Putin's Russia both exist to be oil empires ... Surely? Trump & Putin are after the same thing, but Putin is "driving" Trump ....

    April D AIUI it was & is a special case, protected IIRC by its own special Act of Parliament. Reason? Well, what's the title of this blog-thread? And, how many children "disappeared" in the early 1900s because medical care wasn't what it is now. [ People like my maternal grandmother who had EIGHT children, all of whom lived to be over 60 years old were very rare indeed. ] QUOTE from a Gruaniad article: The various uses of Peter Pan that have given the hospital money throughout most of the years since Barrie's death in 1937, will continue in the UK at least thanks to former prime minister Jim Callaghan. Encouraged by his wife Audrey, who was a chairwoman of Great Ormond Street, Callaghan successfully campaigned to get the UK's 1988 copyright act amended to give the hospital the unique right to royalties from stage performances of Peter Pan and any adaptation of the play forever. That right continues in the UK beyond December 31 but elsewhere ... nothing will be owed on any stage performance, film, TV show or book. See also ... Oh & STFU about "the royal family", huh? Not even wrong.

    494:

    Well, the "one person" in question was the Prime Minister (James Callaghan) of the day, but yes.

    495:

    Para 1 - I think the USians, and even the people of Englandshire, ;-) would notice a Paveway II landing in the lap of the Lincoln Memorial!

    496:

    The other thing to consider is the US has also had the same amount of time to figure out creative ways to “hard counter” Iran with a lot more reason to expect success.

    Technically, yes, we've had that time. We didn't use it. Moreover, we had a chance to learn an important lesson and doubled down on doing it wrong.

    That was when people with personal memories of Desert Storm were running things, who knew first hand what worked and didn't in Middle East warfare.

    You can try telling yourself that Donald Trump's hand-picked generals will do better...

    497:

    I prefer the "Hunt For Red October" line...

    Ah, yes, from back when Tom Clancy wrote gripping thrillers.

    It wouldn't be the worst thing to point invasion advocates at Red Storm Rising for what to expect: everyone shooting at everyone, huge losses on both sides, and the war goes to the last one to run out of supplies.

    498:

    SS and the war goes to the last one to run out of supplies. Which is what actually happened in WWII, of course, both Europe & Japan.

    499:

    that long delayed follow up to Glasshouse

    Is definitely never going to happen now: I'm no longer with the publisher (in the US) who has the rights to the first book, so an in-series sequel would be ridiculously hard to sell (notwithstanding that "Glasshouse" was my worst-selling SF novel by some margin).

    Indeed, I even recycled the title of the proposed sequel for a much newer space opera in 2016/17 (which has been massively delayed due to parental deaths but is still going to happen eventually -- hopefully out by 2022-23).

    500:

    The Great Ormond Street Hospital, formerly the Hospital for Sick Children, is the leading hospital specialising in childhood diseases in England, and also the UK's leading paediatric heart transplant centre, and one of the largest heart transplant centres in the world.

    J. M. Barrie donated the rights to "Peter Pan" to the hospital in 1929; then Parliament passed a special law to extend the copyright on Peter Pan in perpetuity, specifically for this one charitable cause.

    I'm trying to think of a US analogy: say if Frank Baum donated the copyrights of "The Wizard of Oz" to a top childrens' hospital in the US, to pay for free life saving surgery for sick babies and infants -- can you see any congressman voting against a one-off special copyright extension if someone proposed it?

    It's a rare, but not entirely unique situation: there's a mirror-image in Germany, where the government itself annexed the copyright on all of Hitler's writings after 1945 and used their copyright ownership to keep "Mein Kampf" out of print in German for over 70 years. I'm pretty sure their claim on it is perpetual, too.

    (I'll remind you that in England, until the 19th century it took an Act of Parliament to create a limited liability company, or to get a divorce.)

    501:

    Technically, yes, we've had that time. We didn't use it. Moreover, we had a chance to learn an important lesson and doubled down on doing it wrong.

    Above a certain relatively low level, the USA lacks an institutional civil service: agencies are led by political appointees.

    This means every time there's a change of administration there's a hemorrhage of institutional knowledge and the learning process has to reset to zero.

    Flip side: to avoid this, you need a civil service with a strong professional tradition of impartial service -- like the military (when it's working properly). The UK has historically had this, although the current shower are trying to abolish it (hint: Dominic Cummings' entire agenda is about turning the civil service into an ideologically reliable vehicle for Tory policies). The USA hasn't had, and arguably can't have, such a civil service without rewriting bits of the constitution.

    502:

    It's worth reading Plunkitt Of Tammany Hall to see what (some) politicians' opinion of the introduction of what civil service they have was at the time.

    503:

    Above a certain relatively low level, the USA lacks an institutional civil service: agencies are led by political appointees.

    You're not wrong. This is most obvious among the diplomats, where ambassadors to popular or sexy countries are millionaires and cronies while those to difficult and unglamorous nations are career wonks. Many Americans have opinions about that but we see to be stuck with it.

    It's rarely a problem with the boring agencies that keep the country running; with one horrible exception the FAA ticks along quietly without politics breaking it and the US Post Office continues despite ideological libertarians hating government things that work.

    America doesn't really have good ways to defend against people who try to wreck their own agencies, such as the environment under James Watt (this one not the steam engine guy) or education under the current occupant (currently in legal trouble for defending fraudsters and scam artists).

    Agreed that the US military is pretty good about this; below the very top levels the services are their own closed social circle jerks, opaque to outsiders and resistant to fiddling. Too, in Washington the easy route is to just shower the military with money and route some of the goodies to one's own constituents.

    504:

    Meant to add: Britain has run a really good navy for hundreds of years now. Any suggestions for the rest of us?

    505:

    Re: '... top childrens' hospital in the US, ... can you see any congressman voting against ...'

    St Jude's came to mind immediately as a US version of 'keep your dirty pol hands off!' exception -- but not because of copyright. Basically, despite the past 20 years' political anti-ME/Arab fear-mongering climate, the American Lebanese Syrian Associated Charities continues to raise funds to operate St. Jude Children's Hospital, the top-ranked children's cancer hospital which also happens to be absolutely free. FYI - Paed cancer treatment can cost over $400K in the US.

    https://www.stjude.org/media-resources/news-releases/2017-medicine-science-news/u-s-news-and-world-report-ranks-st-jude-childrens-research-hospital-as-no-1-pediatric-cancer-hospital.html

    506:

    I'm not sure the Royal Navy is a good example these days; they're approaching a ratio of one admiral per surface ship, thanks to steady post-Imperial contraction combined with the need to maintain administrative capability (read: lots of offices to fill, procuring and managing defense programs).

    These days the Navy is down to 20-30,000 staff (they outsourced everything that could be outsourced after 2010). The reason they can only put one carrier to sea at any time is because they don't have enough sailors to crew the other without rendering the necessary support ships (for the carrier group) inoperable.

    If you wanted administrative models you'd do better to look to the NHS. Close to 2 million employees, over 350 hospitals and 5000 GP surgeries, the world's largest single healthcare provider, and runs on half the per-capita budget of the US healthcare system.

    507:

    ...can you see any congressman voting against a one-off special copyright extension if someone proposed it?

    From the current stain of Republicans? Absolutely.

    Meanwhile, and unrelated, glad I haven’t wasted time/money on a certain SF writer.

    508:

    Absolutely, in context of benefitting a Children’s Hospital, I mean.

    509:

    I think he was joking. (Have some more coffee?)

    510:

    The USA hasn't had, and arguably can't have, such a civil service without rewriting bits of the constitution.

    IIRC there are currently about 6000 appointees in the U.S. Government who are required to be approved by the President/Senate. However, the constitution probably requires only a hundred or so to be subject to the presidential/senate approval process, so it's not quite as bad as you'd imagine.

    Per Wikipedia: The Appointments Clause is part of Article II, Section 2, Clause 2 of the United States Constitution, which empowers the President of the United States to nominate and, with the advice and consent (confirmation) of the United States Senate, appoint public officials. Although the Senate must confirm certain principal officers (including ambassadors, Cabinet secretaries, and federal judges), Congress may by law delegate the Senate's advice and consent role when it comes to "inferior" officers (to the President alone, or the courts of law, or the heads of departments).

    511:

    As there are 193 sovereign members of the United Nations organization, which suggests there are close to 193 ambassadors alone, I suspect there are more than 200 presidential/senate appointments that can't be skipped. (The USA has ambassadors to most countries—obviously there are exceptions such as Iran and maybe NK (do they have consular relations now?), but in general I'd expect any nation where there's a US military outpost of any kind to have an embassy, and that's over 150 of them right there.)

    512:

    Agreed. But other than that no one other than the head of the entire department (of Treasury, for example) is constitutionally required to be nominated by the president and approved by the senate. The rest of the hires may constitutionally be delegated to someone else, such as the Dept. of Treasury HR dept. Thus the problem is not the constitution, but convincing Congress to give up the system which allows the election winner to pass out goodies.

    Judges are another matter, of course.

    513:

    Just to work the math, that would mean around 210-220 rather than the current 6000, which would be quite an improvement.

    514:

    New guest blog essay up just now, by Harry Connolly.

    515:

    Not all appointees are party apparatchiks.

    For example, many ambassadors used to be career, having risen through the foreign service. Only a few were major campaign donors and the like. Britain does this too.

    For another example, USFWS, which I rub elbows with, only has about six levels IIRC, the top is appointed by the Secretary of the Interior, and his regional bosses are appointed.

    The problems with the US bureaucracy are twofold: corruption at the top and anti-technocracy/bureaucracy being standard political shibboleths going back well prior to McCarthy to that tradition of proud rural ignorance that, erm, I think we inherited from the UK?*

    There are plenty of examples, J. Edgar Hoover being the most extreme, of bureaucrats who rose through the ranks and lasted for decades. I'd argue that one of the symptoms of the oligarchy are systematic attempts to break down this continuity of knowledge and power from the outside.

    Recently, bureaucracy did hemorrhage career civil servants massively, when Bush II came in with that idiot ideology of the private sector doing it better, and when Trump came in and made corrupt practice the order of the day. I know a number of people who worked through three or four previous administrations, only to retire (or leave) in disgust. They are loyal to the US, but when they're bosses are not, what are they to do?

    Things get more interesting in places like California that have term limits: the power flows towards the bureaucracy, and even more towards the long-term consultants who have the institutional memory that the decision makers typically lack. In this situation, one of the tell-tales of problems is how fast a department turns over staff. For example, San Diego County Planning staff went from largely being career (these are people I know and work with) to currently staying perhaps two years before they go elsewhere. Planning has become hopelessly corrupt, and one symptom of this is a total loss of institutional knowledge, as well as a loss of continuity in negotiating and implementing long-term plans. That's actually not a good thing, although a bunch of people are taking advantage of it.

    And finally, a career civil service isn't against the Constitution, it's that it gets in the way of money being most powerful. In this regard, it's almost like the ancient, primitive fight over who gets to rule (the warriors, the priests, the merchants, or the civil politicians) is playing out in real time right now, with the merchants winning. You can see that playing out in ideological fights over what's most important: security, morality, wealth, or good government.

    *Yes, after the last two elections, do tell about how you dumped all the nutters in the colonies and left the smart people in the homeland.

    516:

    Yes, after the last two elections, do tell about how you dumped all the nutters in the colonies and left the smart people in the homeland.

    I don't think that's entirely fair. We've certainly got enough nutters of our own to deal with.

    517:

    Of course, Guiliani's buddy Lev has offered to testtify to Congress, and his buddy might....

    518:

    My guess is that Putin is putting the screws to the Idiot for, well, being an idiot, and with that, on top of being impeached, he counterpunched, and had a brainstorm sessions, and someone like Miller suggested this.

    519:

    If I remember correctly, Libby was the fall guy, and he got hit for obstruction. They never found who actually did it... and the odds are, of course, Cheney himself.

    520:

    I disagree. If I wasn't clear, the Selective Service website crashed under the weight of everyone trying to find out the other day.

    Given how most folks feel about going to the Middle East to fight a war, esp. since the US is, for the moment, self-sufficient on gas, you'd have Congress surrounded by several million protestors for days, and every Congressional and Senatorial office with lines out the door of the building.

    521:

    Why yes, you do. It's simply that comments from the not-too-distant past about the inherent superiority of the British parliamentary system over the US system do need to be trotted out again, if only to remind people that any system of government (or anarchy, for that matter) can be subverted, especially when people take it for granted. We seem to be in an age of subversion on all levels actually.

    522:

    What we're currently dealing with is a globalized system for creating fascism and nourishing nutters, as financed by big businesses (and Russia.) Castigating the Brits for Brexit, the U.S. for Trump, or the Italians for Berlusconi is to very badly miss the point.

    523:

    You're not distinguishing between intent, and commentary - the two songs are very different.

    And did I ever hear Draft Dodger Rag? Would you like me to sing it for you, as I have, on occasion, since about a month after I got the album in the sixties?

    Hmmm, maybe I should folk-process it for now. I was thinking of that in the shower just now...

    "Well, I'm just a typical American kid From a typical American city I believe in McConnell and Donald J And keepin' them brown folks down...."

    524:

    I wonder if anyone's pointed out to Trump that more people turned out for Soleimani's funeral than his inauguration?

    Probably not, as we haven't seen any rage-tweeting about it…

    525:

    He wouldn't believe that anyway; He thinks more people turned out for his inauguration than for O'Bama.

    526:

    "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." It's only worth blaming the victim to the extent that the victim didn't do due diligence, which in this case included getting involved in local politics, voting, and thinking their votes didn't matter. Remember, how, for a couple of years, voting and getting involved was for idiots?

    The reason I'm caustic is that authoritarians never went away. They've gotten louder, but we collectively let them get louder.

    We are not innocent victims in the degradation of politics, sadly. That's also true for climate change.

    527:

    Of the impression that countries whose legal systems are based on English Common Law have 'discovery' as part of their procedures.

    IANAL

    But discovery as it exists in the US today in civil lawsuits came about to remove the Perry Mason courtroom surprises which led to all kinds of issues in running a trial. So even in the US it has changed radically over the last 50 or 60 years.

    528:

    The USN is overstretched and stressed -- it's too small for its tasking and it's got readiness issues

    Which is why the talk of increasing the surface fleet by 30% to 50% makes no sense. The USN has manning issues now. Just where are all the extra people going to come from? $200k/yr after 3 months or something? And even with unmanned ships there's a vast amount of people involved in just keeping those running. Now toss in that the current version of cruisers with VL tubes are getting to be 20 or more years old and reaching EOL. [eyeroll]

    529:

    Agreed completely, but how does that relate to one country bagging on another for its (bought and paid for) lunatics, particularly given the time and effort OGH spends doing the very work you'd like to see done; that is, calling out the lunacy?

    530:

    This means every time there's a change of administration there's a hemorrhage of institutional knowledge and the learning process has to reset to zero.

    Actually more like ona scale of 1 to 10, reset to a 7 or 8.

    So the Trump folks (and our NC legislature) are working to reset it down to 0 or near there by moving it main HQ for various agencies so the institutional folks will walk. Seems to be working. But the DT folks are pissed that they are getting sued about all of this. DT waving his sceptre isn't working as well as they hoped.

    531:

    Britain has run a really good navy for hundreds of years now. Any suggestions for the rest of us?

    I suspect the lower ranks might not agree with that sentiment. Slavery for a very long time in all but name.

    532:

    Next generation warships, which can run with the same (or greater) capability on half to two thirds the crew. As an added bonus, you no longer have to capture them from the French ;-)

    533:

    you no longer have to capture them from the French

    A big grievance in the US round about 1812 was British ships stopping US merchant ships and appropriating large chunks of the crew. For all practical purposes for life. Or desertion.

    Lucky for us the French were also pissed at them at the time.

    534:

    13 years passed between gulf war 1 and gulf war 2. That is how long Saddam has to prepare. He not only failed he failed spectacularly

    This is an intersting article on the effectiveness of using satellites to track surface ships like carriers

    https://www.quora.com/Can-satellites-be-used-to-find-warships-during-conflict

    Bear in mind that the carrier has multiple hours between when the barrage of cruise missiles are launched till they actually arrive on target. That’s long enough to shoot down Iranian satellites and then change position enough so the cruise missiles miss you. There is also no way for the launch site to update the telemetry of the cruise missiles after they are launched

    Not to mention just shooting down the cruise missiles themselves, they are easy targets over oceans.

    535:

    Also Iran does not actually seem to have any spy satellites. We have pretty good data on everything they have sent up and while they did send up a couple imaging satellites they didn’t last long

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Space_Agency

    536:

    Well, as an American I had to put up with a lot of crap about how bad our government was, on this blog. Now that we're all in the same boat, the polite thing to do about it would be to ignore the past rudeness, but somehow I don't feel like it. If we're all making the same mistakes, we're really not that different across the world. And part of responding to the problems involves identifying the problems and talking about them.

    And if I hadn't been rude about it, we would be talking about it now, would we?

    537:

    If you want to know what a real “hard counter” to carrier groups are it probably lols more like this

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-ship_ballistic_missile#China

    It’s not so much overwhelming with numbers it’s overwhelming with speed. Those hypersonic glide ballistic missiles might be game changers

    I think we’ll beyond Iran’s capabilities though seeing as they are struggling to launch satellites without having them explode

    538:

    and used their copyright ownership to keep "Mein Kampf" out of print in German for over 70 years. I'm pretty sure their claim on it is perpetual, too.

    Nah, Hitler's work is in the public domain since 1st Jan 2016 - and an annotated edition was one of the bestsellers in this year.

    Fun fact: The book was never per se verboten here and the federal court of justice decided in 1979 that owning or even selling antiquarian editions is not a case of using unconstitutional symbols (but, depending on the context, owning/using/distributing the book can be seen as Volksverhetzung).

    With copyright not a way to hinder the distribution anymore the (unannotated) book was placed on the list of jugendgefährdender Schriften (~ 'writings harmful for youths') in 2018 - it's now illegal to sell it to minors and nearly impossible to market (ads etc) it.

    539:

    Australia has (finally?) got to the point where the idiocy of our government is plain to see, but I fear readers here will be so used to me bagging them out that you will be surprised that this is news. Craig Kelly apparently visited the UK and clearly explained our position... and somehow managed to make Piers Ackerman seem like the adult in the room. At least he didn't get asked about George Pell (The Right Honourable Mr Kelly believes he's clearly innocent because abused children always immediately and accurately report abuse, and since that didn't happen here there can have been no abuse).

    https://newmatilda.com/2020/01/07/craig-kelly-didnt-say-anything-in-his-car-crash-uk-interview-that-morrison-hasnt-already/

    540:

    Yes, but I meant we captured French warships from the French; impressing British crews who were working US vessels is a different argument. (not to forget that you actually started the "War of 1812")

    541:

    Nah, Hitler's work is in the public domain since 1st Jan 2016 - and an annotated edition was one of the bestsellers in this year.<\i>

    Link, please. I need to refresh my German and, these days, why not Mein Kampf as a reminder of times past?

    542:

    To paraphrase Yoda, what's taught was "Do, or do not: There is no warning shot".

    That's interesting, is this SOP for the military or a consequence of the typically unarmed British police ("when the guys with guns arrive anyone is warned enough")?

    Our generally armed but still not militarised police[0] has to announce the use of force, including gun usage. And depending on the situation a warning shot is the best way to do this.

    [I'm honestly curious. Your comment made me create a new user after I lost access to my first one years ago :)]

    [0] our politicians do their best to change this...

    543:

    And check YouTube for footage of Sea Viper (Aster 15 and Aster 30, between them proven to have an interception envelope of 1.5 km to 120 km from the firing vessel at speeds of Mach 1 to Mach 3).

    545:

    impressing British crews

    You really think they were British?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812#Impressment_and_naval_actions

    So if a sailor was born in the UK, moved to the US and then 50 years later it was OK to "impress" him into the British Nave?

    Sounds like the British Navy didn't agree the US was a new nation.

    546:

    ah wait, not as a citation for the public domain state but the whole text? dunno, did you search Project Gutenberg?

    547:

    Sorry "ALL British"

    548:

    UK procedure would be to state something like "Armed Police. Drop your weapons!"

    549:

    The problem is one of doctrine; the US Navy historically likes to run its ships with a larger crew than comparable navies (e.g. the RN); it relies on greater levels of specialisation among crew members, which presumably allows for shorter training times. It currently also appears to have a high wastage rate among junior officers due to appalling man-management (because "I was treated like dirt for my first few years, so it must be good for you"). If you look at the various 7th Fleet misadventures, and the sheer numbers of people on the bridges concerned (compared to RN, let alone a merchant vessel), you have to wonder...

    ...anyway, the real problem is the pork barrel. All USN ships are built by a few US shipyards, operating a nice little cartel, safe in the knowledge that the USN will never buy a foreign vessel. Think "British shipyards in the 1970s". The quality of what they produce isn't great - and the GAO regularly tears into them for it.

    It's a bit like US healthcare - their naval vessels cost the USA significantly more than what the UK pays for the RN's vessels. It's not as if the Queen Elizabeth class carriers, the Type 45 destroyer, and the Type 26 frigates are low-end stuff, they're on a par with anything else afloat - but they cost a lot less to build than the USN equivalents, and a lot less to run.

    So yes, you could easily build a ship that ran on 2/3 of the crew (HMS Queen Elizabeth has a crew size under a third that of the USS Gerald Ford, once you exclude their air wings) but would the USN buy it? Likewise, an RN Type 45 destroyer has a crew of just under 200, compared with a USN Arleigh Burke at just over 300.

    550:

    Well, not having them on sea-borne cathedrals is one thing; also the USA's failure to issue them with naturalisation papers to say that they're not British...

    551:

    "You are surrounded by armed bastards!"

    553:

    Fuck it. They knew better.

    (Damn, are all the comments pissy today, or is it me?)

    554:

    See my anti-carrier cruise missile costs about 2 grand for a model jet engine off ebay plus some drainpipe and a handful of transistors and glue and shit, and is based around taking note of TJ @ 481. It looks out at the empty ocean with its 1950s analogue radio vision and sees a lot of dark with this bright lit-up flashing multi-coloured thing standing out like a sore prick. And its 1950s analogue radio steering heads straight for it. Along with all its mates, because at 2 grand a pop you can make fuck loads of them.

    "Not to mention just shooting down the cruise missiles themselves, they are easy targets over oceans."

    Look up "sea skimming missiles" and consider that they are essentially cruise missiles that don't have to know how to fly over hills.

    555:

    It's just like leaving the copyrights to a foundation. Which, AFAIK, is perfectly legal.

    556:

    The problem comes in when someone who's confirmed by the senate leaves the position: one of the reasons there are so many "acting" heads and deputies is that Trmp can't find people who can be confirmed - and even Moscow Mitch McTurtle can't force every nomination through (though that's virtually all that the Senate has done in the last year).

    558:

    Moz responded to my comment about indoor farming based on the ratio of farmland to building space: "If you compare the amount of floorspace the amount of farmed land the numbers are not good. ... Somehow more buildings and increased efficiency would need to make up that factor of 10,000 difference."

    I saw your correction to 100x, so let's work with that number. Is indoor or greenhouse farming 100x as productive as field farming? Probably not, though I'd be surprised if using a closed environment and appropriate CO2 enrichment and lighting wouldn't greatly reduce that space requirement. Reduce the floor space further if we're growing food only for humans, not cattle, and growing optimally nutritious food (ex. more legumes, less pure carbohydrate plays). Eliminate food diversion to junk food (eat potatoes, not chips, and tomatoes, not ketchup) and you reduce the required area further. Now stack 10 stories worth of farm floors and you reduce the land requirements by a factor of 10. That is, 10 floors in one unit of land instead of dispersed over 10 units of land.

    Would it be economical right now? Almost certainly not. Would it be more economical than letting most of the 99% starve? Definitely not. Would it be the right play if we start losing large proportions of our crops to adverse weather? imho, yes.

    559:
    That's interesting, is this SOP for the military or a consequence of the typically unarmed British police ("when the guys with guns arrive anyone is warned enough")?

    Possibly, though in the specific case Northern Ireland has never seen an unarmed police officer.

    560:

    "Next generation warships, which can run with the same (or greater) capability on half to two thirds the crew. As an added bonus, you no longer have to capture them from the French ;-)"

    The article I saw on such US ships made me think that they were planning on nothing going wrong.

    561:

    You're suggesting we grow everything we want to eat like the Dutch grow tomatoes (lowest yield globally for 2018 was 2.5 kilos per square metre. The Netherlands' was 50.7).

    Getting there took a lot of investment, and tomatoes are a contender for "plant with second-most experience with intensive hydroponic cultivation" (research in growth of the likely first-most is harder to access), so we'd also have to duplicate all that from scratch in most of everything else we want to eat, starting from "develop a compatible seed."

    Not easy.

    562:

    People wondering about the oil price disparity, $70 vrs $63: it's Futures (Brent) vrs Futures (US)

    Futures for Brent crude, the global benchmark, gained 2.4% to reach $70.24 per barrel — the first time prices have hit that amount in more than six months. US oil futures advanced 2.1% to reach $64.36 per barrel. Oil prices rose more than 3% on Friday after Qasem Soleimani

    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/05/investing/asian-market-latest-oil-prices/index.html

    The spike was 3-5% depending on your oil type / area, as predicted.

    402

    Someone threw a few missiles at some military bases. Very predictable ones and quite symbolic ones given who they host. No US casualties reported, Civ air traffic is re-routing and there's no ships ablaze in the straight. Birds are in the sky, but so are B52s and a whole bunch of obvious stuff.

    There's no mass rockets from Lebanon, there's no mass container ships going down, there's no mass outage cyber-war spikes.

    You're going to get a show to make L'Orange feel important.

    Unless some fucking pricks kick off, it can be contained. Putin left Syria and is in TR atm, Bibi is not live on TV etc etc.

    ~All is subject to change, but you'll probably see a field test of F35 vrs 1980's tech and sadly some people will die.

    Doesn't meet any of the scenarios in US Gov .mil books for all-out engagement though.

    Who knows - could be FUD bullshit.

    He is not coming Home

    We know, and our Voice will sing soon.

    563:

    "Look up "sea skimming missiles" and consider that they are essentially cruise missiles that don't have to know how to fly over hills."

    This leads to some interesting game theory, so to speak. The missiles have smaller sensors, but are looking for bigger targets. The ships have very large, high quality sensors but have to find and deal with a large number of small, fast moving objects.

    And the wave of attacking missiles can be seeded with jamming/chaff/spoofing missiles.

    564:

    Bleh.

    BREAKING: Coalition source says no coalition casualties reported so far following Iranian missile strikes on bases in Iraq However this could change as assessments still ongoing.

    https://twitter.com/haynesdeborah/status/1214736101375651841

    She's the UK MOD friendly replacement for IO btw - they love a type. 100% paid for contractor whether she knows it or not.

    ~

    You're fucking welcome.

    Remember kids, causality weapons don't exist.

    565:

    Also kidz (and Martin):

    BAE Systems Tests SPIKE LR Anti-Tank Guided Missile from the CV90 Infantry Vehicle

    https://www.defencetalk.com/bae-systems-tests-cv90-spike-lr-anti-tank-guided-missile-72928/

    WAKE US THE FUCK UP WHEN NEW ARMOR IS FIELDED BY ANYONE NOT ALSO ON THE FUCKING MERCHANT LIST OF THE PEOPLE SELLING THIS SHIT.

    At this rate, you're gonna need fucking aliens air-dropping .mil equip from space to not make this hilariously stupid.

    Kids. If you're in-country against anyone who can field modern armor.... defeat a target at more than 2,000 metres

    Oh, wait...

    he introduction of the longer barrel came hand in hand with the introduction of a new kinetic energy penetrator, the DM53. With the projectile including sabot weighing in at 8.35 kilograms with a 38:1 length to diameter ratio and with a muzzle velocity of 1,750 meters per second (5,700 ft/s), the DM53 has an effective engagement range of up to 4,000 meters (4,400 yd).[1] A further development, called the DM63, improved upon the round by introducing a new temperature-independent propellant, which allows the propellant to have a constant pattern of expansion between ambient temperatures inside the gun barrel from −47 °C (−53 °F) to +71 °C (160 °F). The new propellant powders, known as surface-coated double-base (SCDB) propellants, allow the DM63 to be used in many climates with consistent results.[50] The new ammunition has been accepted into service with the Dutch and Swiss, as well as German, armies.[51]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall_Rh-120

    SO, YOU NEED US TO SPEND BILLIONS ON YOUR NEW WEAPON THAT HAS 1 SHOT VRS A 20+ YR OLD SYSTEM THAT HAS TWICE THE RANGE?

    FUCKING BULLSHIT.

    566:

    And then my $500 ecm plane lights up and all your pretty missiles follow the pied piper off into the sunset

    Hell maybe if we are feeling frisky we lead them back to the base from which they came

    And you get to die to your own missiles and earn your place in the stupidest admiral hall of fame

    Here is an article specifically on this

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2019/08/09/why-china-cant-target-u-s-aircraft-carriers/

    567:

    All of which documents that these certificates did exist; it does not document any requirement for powers other than the US Government to recognise them as legal documents.

    568:

    Now stack 10 stories worth of farm floors and you reduce the land requirements by a factor of 10.

    That's fine, but it's also why I talked about floor space. You could stack them 100 floors high and you still need almost the same amount of floor space (you need lifts and stairs for access to upper floors) but the building cost rises dramatically. Multistory warehouses are typically a response to extreme land cost, and are avoided even when that means significant transport costs.

    The crops grown will definitely change, and I fear you're right that the energy source will also change. Currently that means that you'll need 10 hectares of solar farm for every hectare of indoor farm (coverage ratio of 50% is best in class, 22% efficient panels ditto, and 10% total electrical losses is optimistic), but optimised LEDs use less energy than reproducing full sun does only I can't find the ratio documented online. I see numbers ranging down to 10W/m2 but that seems implausibly low to me (sunlight being nominal 1000W/m2)

    569:

    I also can't find records of current staples being gown indoors beyond lab experiments, no-one seems to be trying to answer the question "where would bulk carbohydrates come from if we couldn't farm outside". There's a huge difference between producing flavoured water indoors in the form of lettuce and tomatoes, and trying to manufacture energy-dense foods. Reddit says about 6 square feet of grow area per loaf of bread per year.

    My warehouse number above, BTW, was for a 6m ceiling height. That's because harvesting wheat or corn in bulk requires large machines that use headroom to make the process more efficient. Once people start manufacturing machinery to do that indoors I expect the process will be very different but in the meantime I suspect we will be stuck with 2m high crops worked by 3-4m high machines that spit harvest into the air above them. We might be able to swap to dwarf wheat rather than semi-dwarf, but currently that costs yield and is rarely worthwhile even in a context where the "building cost" is zero. "dwarf corn" appears to be a research area rather than a crop.

    570:

    Pollination is a problem for grains grown indoor right? Because they are wind pollinated?

    571:

    Not really, it's much easier to generate wind indoors than it is to introduce insect pollinators. Lettuce is wind pollinated, for example, and that's widely grown indoors and hydroponically. Persuading bees to work indoors is possible but I don't think it's going to be easy, it may be necessary to have "bee greenhouses" so their sensitivity to sun and moon movements isn't thrown out of whack. "indoor beekeeping" currently means the hives are inside and the bees go outside to forage, I'm not aware of bees kept indoors and used to pollinate artificially lit plants. But that's from talking to beekeepers about where to site hives, with "out of artificial night lights" being important.

    Getting wheat and corn to grow and fruit rather than just sprout and die hydroponically is likely to be a challenge. I suspect we will see "bulldoze it full of soil" before we see hydroponic wheat harvesting at scale, but this is something I know almost nothing about.

    572:

    Also, from what I can see there's very little seed grown indoors, as opposed to seed crops grown indoors. This is important, because the seed industry is important and they are very, very technological (Monsanto,m for example, being notoriously technophilic).

    573:

    David L ANPOTHER little bit about "the War of 1812" that the US won't talk about is that a lot of the US ships being stopped ( & crews impressed ) were ... oh dear ... SLAVERS. SEE ALSO David L @ 545 - who is flat wrong, unfortunately ... that was not the reason.

    Moz @ 539 Actually, the only Aussie who makes any sense on this is your cultral attache on the subject Sir Les Patterson Cringe ... And yet, at this point ... even Barry Humphries outrageous parodies are LESS gross than real life. Scary, or what?

    ..."Bees indoors" ... done regularly in the Netherlands & sometimes her. The preferred speces, IIRC are Bombus terrestris / lucorum / impatines - the latter being a USA species ( I think ) terrestris are huge - the largest Brit Bumble & lucorum are very common.

    574:

    Greg, there's a whole lot of (satirical) news sites that make a lot of sense, and then a few more serious ones, plus a few political types who aren't totally clueless.

    Scott Ludlam was a decent sort and a politician, but he resigned when it turned out he'd done the wrong thing (so did Larissa Waters)... the other 10+ politicians in the same boat did everything from suing to media campaigns to crying "antisemitism" and of course all stayed in parliament until (or after) they were forced to resign. Admittedly s44 of our constitution as administered by the supreme court is frankly bonkers, but if the people who make the laws can't cope with one insanely silly bit of paperwork then frankly they have no business being in parliament.

    Some sites worth reading:

    http://www.theshovel.com.au/2020/01/04/firefighters-given-vital-extra-tv-commercials-to-help-fight-new-blazes-%ef%bb%bf/

    https://www.betootaadvocate.com/breaking-news/greens-anti-back-burning-agenda-blamed-for-record-high-temperatures-in-penrith-on-saturday/

    https://chaser.com.au/national/i-always-believed-in-climate-change-says-guy-that-brought-coal-into-parliament/

    https://www.kudelka.com.au/2020/01/catastrophic-pr-warning/

    https://firstdogonthemoon.com.au/cartoons/2020/01/04/these-bushfires/

    And a great bit of commentary on the international situation:

    https://chaser.com.au/general-news/iran-retaliates-against-u-s-by-not-taking-out-high-ranking-government-officials/

    575:

    1000 W/m^2 is noontime in a sunny location near the tropics. The south of England averages 400 W/m^2 (for 16 hours) in high summer. Even Scotland averages 40 W/m^2 (for 6 hours) in winter, so an optimised 10 W/m^2 would grow grass - just very, very slowly. An optimised 100 W/m^2 I could believe.

    576:

    Moz Read all of those ... all very true very funny 7 utterly useless ... unless & until that lot are voted OUT Do you have the same problem as us ( Which the US does not have, interestingly ) - that the "other lot|" are no better? [ No better at the moment, that is - we'll see who succeeds Corbyn ]

    578:

    I'm reminded of the pterry anecdote:

    Interviwer: Why do you have six screens?

    Terry: Because I can't find a rig that holds eight.

    579:

    Yup... until they BSOD, and have to be towed back to port....

    I see the USN has moved to Linux.

    580:

    Yes, google "greenhouse wheat" or "greenhouse corn" and you'll find that they grow just fine in greenhouses.

    Hydroponic wheat doesn't seem to work too well. Hydroponic rice is reputedly complicated but possible, and so is hydroponic corn.

    Now, since I spent two years in a greenhouse running mycorrhizal experiments, let's talk about the real problems with greenhouses: heat and pests. In Wisconsin (43oN latitude), it got over 40oC in the greenhouses in the summer, with the whitewash on the glass. And it was humid. And that was 20 years ago. We had to be very careful about not overheating, and I'm not sure what the temperatures did to my experiments, although they still provided data.

    Going forwards, I'm not sure you want greenhouses to deal with climate change. I'd strongly recommend finding crop varieties that can tolerate shorter daylengths and a variety of weird soils.

    Of course, building a pinkhouse (artificial grow lights in the photosynthetic spectrum in a warehouse) might get you around this problem, but then you've got to power the lights. What I'd suggest is the following: --If you're talking about a setup that's growing indoors with blue and red LEDs, call it a pinkhouse. --Remember that greenhouses trap heat.

    As for the pests, they are an effing nuisance. The research greenhouse staff sprayed all sorts of stuff to try to keep the aphids and whiteflies down. I was running mycorrhizal experiments, so my space didn't get the fungicides, but yes, anything that's warm, moist, and favorable to plant growth will also be favorable to a cadre of fungi, bacteria, insects, and other things. That you pretty much can't avoid.

    As for bees in greenhouses, as Greg noted, it's pretty normal to use bumblebees to pollinate some greenhouse crops. For whatever reason, honeybees and mason bees just don't do as well in greenhouses. As for pinkhouses, I have no clue.

    Oh, and lettuce is self-pollinated, not wind pollinated. Trying to cross lettuce varieties is doable but interesting.

    For wind in greenhouses, yeah, they're called cooling fans. The only advantage, if you were crazy enough to do, say, hydroponic pinkhouse corn, is that you know which way the air is moving if you designed it right, so you know which bed is providing the pollination to which. Provided there are no eddies or turbulence, or that your workers don't get pollen on their clothes. Ahem.

    Finally, a note. The anthropologists (wrongly I think) believe that wheat, rice and corn are the grains that make civilization possible, so if you're going to try to feed people out of monstrously huge multilevel farms, rapidly developing efficient and massively productive pinkhouse production of these grains is key.*

    If you're a goofball like me, you might believe that it's possible to run a civilization off of sweet potato, taro, and possibly manioc, although the protein has to come from somewhere else (presumably insects, shrimp, fungi, soil bacteria, and so forth). Sweet potatoes, being vines, are particularly adaptable to vertical farming methods. Taro is another hydroponic crop like rice, although it does better with cool water rather than warm water and it's less productive than rice. Hawai'i created a civilization of sorts off taro, sweet potatoes, volcanic soil (and fish), so it's not impossible. I'll leave it to you to imagine how that would work out. No bread, sweet potato alcohol, poi, and an elaboration of the "Polynesian pudding complex" would just be the start of this new cuisine.

    *Of course, there are massive political disincentives to doing this, unless Big Ag gets involved. It's a good thing that winter wheat will be less affected by climate change, according to one study. And that's mostly because it doesn't grow in the summer, if I understood the results correctly.

    581:

    Now you're being ridiculous. Gulf War I was a wag-the-dog for Bush, Sr, whose poll numbers sucked.

    By the way, were you aware that the reason that Iraq went into Kuwait was because Kuwait was using new-then tech to drill for oil sideways, and was going under the border to steal oil from Iraq's reserves? (No, I'm not making this up, go look it up.)

    Gulf II was because Dick Fucking Cheney and his buddies wanted to steal Iraq's oil, plain and simple. Every single thing they claimed was a lie, and you know it (of course Iraq had poison weapons, Cheney, under Raygun, sold it to him.

    And you're going to tell me that a country with a population of what, 25M, is going to fight off the world's only superpower, a country of 300M? Really?

    582:

    Heteromeles @ 456: About gardening:

    I've mentioned before that I have been composting all my yard waste for years & years & years and also how much I hate doing yard-work. But I've got all this magnificent topsoil and it's so much more than I need. I've been thinking about maybe a miniature FOOD garden - 4ft x 8ft, the size of a sheet of plywood, oriented with the long axis north-south. Dig up the 4x8 space, run a tiller across it, put a 2x10 frame around it and fill it to the top with that topsoil, something I think they call a double-dug, raised bed.

    There's one spot in my front yard where a garden this size would be in the sunshine almost all day; might get partial shade late in the evening, say an hour or so before sunset. It would be convenient to my front door, so I could pick a few vegetables at a time when I wanted them. That's the easy part.

    Hard part. What do I plant?

    I want easy, low effort (HATE doing yard-work) producing food I can eat. I'm in USDA Plant Hardiness Zone 7b. Thinking about rows going across the short axis(E-W), so I know I want the short plants at the south end & taller plants at the north end. And with that, I have exhausted the sum total of my knowledge about gardening.

    Did I mention I hate doing yard-work? But I do like to eat, and sometimes I like to cook.

    583:

    sigh Ours are militarized. Even Metro (DC area transit) cops wear bulletproof vests and carry guns.

    584:

    And below that level, a lot of upper management who don't want to confirm.

    My director at the NIH was "acting director" for, um, 12 freakin' years.

    585:

    David L @ 469:

    "Any idea how the re-districting looks since the 2016 election? (I tried googling 'number of redrawn districts since 2016' but got mostly op-eds.)"

    Likely to turn into a blood sport.

    Read this or similar:
    https://www.npr.org/2020/01/05/785672201/deceased-gop-strategists-daughter-makes-files-public-that-republicans-wanted-sea

    then start digging
    https://www.thehofellerfiles.com/

    Lots of embarrassing and maybe illegal plans in those files.

    When John Roberts issued his opinion that Gerrymandering was not a "justicable" issue for the Federal Courts he included a throw-away line that the state courts could take up the issue if they were inclined to do so, perhaps expecting the corrupt republican criminal conspiracy would prevail at the state level.

    Didn't quite turn out that way in North Carolina where a three judge panel told the legislature that Gerrymandering violates the state constitution's provisions for free and fair elections. They made them redraw the districts for both Congressional districts and for the Legislature. I don't know how effective that redrawing has been, since the first election using the new maps isn't until the March primaries.

    But the state courts DID rely on the "Hofeller files" as a guideline for what kind of shenanigans they should be on the lookout for.

    586:

    P J Evans @ 470: He's getting a lot of verbal pushback (and not much support, outside of his fans), because one thing most people know is that that's a war crime. And quite a few of us would send that entire lot to the Hague, with or without the ICC having been ratified by the US.

    One thing I haven't seen a lot of reporting on is that after Trumpolini issued his tweet saying that we'd destroy 52 cultural sites in Iran, the DoD quietly issued a statement saying Oh no we won't!

    Something strongly emphasized in American military training is that not only are you allowed to refuse to carry out an order to commit unlawful acts, you are required to refuse to carry out that order ... because if you don't refuse you are just as guilty as the person who gave that order. There's no question, you are going to have a lot of trouble if you insist on doing the right thing, but that's why the U.S. has whistle-blower protection laws. It's why the U.S. NEEDS whistle-blower protection laws.

    587:

    Spending money for weapons only good against the last generation?

    Fine old US military tradition. In the mid-eighties, there was a front page story about a weapon called "tomahawk": the US military armories had come up with a replacement for a bazooka, carriable by one trooper that would take out a then-current Soviet tank, and weighed, oh, under 20lbs. Maybe under 10lbs. And cost about $70 to build (yes, I'm not missing any zeros - that's seventy dollars.) Then the Army put it out on bid. A year or two later, they were being sold crap that would not take out the current Soviet tanks, but older ones, and they weighed over 70 lbs, and cost > $700.

    588:

    "optimised LEDs use less energy than reproducing full sun does only I can't find the ratio documented online. I see numbers ranging down to 10W/m2 but that seems implausibly low to me (sunlight being nominal 1000W/m2)"

    Well, I don't know, either, but possibly I can wibble usefully...

    There appears to be a problem right away with imitating sunlight flux levels; sunlight gives you 1kW/m2 of black body radiation at a few thousand K which mostly ends up as low-grade heat, while LEDs giving you 1kW of useful radiation which mostly ends up as low-grade heat also give you 1kW of extra low-grade heat straight out of the light fittings.

    All I know about plant LED lamps is from finding them on ebay while looking for white ones; these are either a mixture of blue and red LEDs in roughly equal numbers, or an array of blue LEDs with some red phosphor to down-convert some of the blue. Some of them have spectra quoted, which are shaped as you'd expect. A rough eyeball comparison with sunlight suggests that they save somewhere between a third and a half the energy you'd need to imitate the whole of the sunlight spectrum properly. Comparing them with real white LEDs is more difficult because these also use phosphor down-conversion and have a crap Nessie spectrum with a pinnacle in the blue and a big peak in the yellow; while to human vision the difference is huge, I suspect from a plant's point of view there's not all that much in it.

    This is not my field at all but AIUI the principal limitation on plant growth is the availability in the soil of elements other than carbon, hydrogen and oxygen, and the next most important is temperature, while their ability to capture light tends to be in oversupply and give them more photosynthetic potential than they can actually use, so much of the importance of "light" in natural growth is down to its close relation with temperature rather than to meeting photosynthetic quantum thresholds. This means that some low grade heat output from the lamps in artificial conditions can be useful, as long as it's not too much, and you can get away with lower light intensities than sunlight because the visible and near-IR radiation is not the only source of warmth. Where the balance lies I don't know, but I guess LEDs match it better than older and less efficient lamps do.

    What the deal is with hydroponics I'm very unsure about; it's not entirely clear to me that it should work at all, but apparently it does. I think it's something along the lines of you can greatly accelerate a plant's metabolism if you supply plenty of oxygen directly to the roots instead of the plant having to bring it all down from the leaves. Then the main limit on growth is still "elements other than carbon, hydrogen and oxygen" only in the opposite sense - the faster the plant grows the more of them it needs, but if the concentration of them in the water is too high they become toxic, so you get a limit on growth rate where the gap between "not enough" and "too much" becomes too small to work with. This in turn defines how many photons energetic enough to drive photosynthesis you need to supply, and since ambient heat is being independently controlled and supplied instead of being directly tied to the photon flux, the answer still works out to be a lot fewer than sunlight can give you.

    So I reckon that if you combine the effects of "not using photons to provide non-photosynthetic energy", "only providing photons of photosynthetically useful wavelength", and "1kW/m2 is a maximum figure and the average a growing plant sees is a lot less", then it probably does get you down to somewhere about the 100W/m2 mark or maybe even less.

    (Quite likely Heteromeles or others of our botanically-inclined members can see lots of holes in that, but I think it's somewhere along the right lines.)

    Of course, all this efficiency gain is cancelled out by harvesting the energy using solar panels, so your land use goes up not down, and even more so if you build multi storey plant parks...

    589:

    Yep, sure, one $500 ECM leads all of them off. Harde-har-har.

    You really think it's going to be a brighter target than the carrier? Really? What's the power source in that bitty thing, a M. Fusion reactor?

    And the Forbes article is pure BS. You really think they don't know where the carriers are? We're not talking 1940's tech, here....

    590:

    Charlie Stross @ 506: I'm not sure the Royal Navy is a good example these days; they're approaching a ratio of one admiral per surface ship, thanks to steady post-Imperial contraction combined with the need to maintain administrative capability (read: lots of offices to fill, procuring and managing defense programs).

    These days the Navy is down to 20-30,000 staff (they outsourced everything that could be outsourced after 2010). The reason they can only put one carrier to sea at any time is because they don't have enough sailors to crew the other without rendering the necessary support ships (for the carrier group) inoperable.

    If you wanted administrative models you'd do better to look to the NHS. Close to 2 million employees, over 350 hospitals and 5000 GP surgeries, the world's largest single healthcare provider, and runs on half the per-capita budget of the US healthcare system.

    Yeah, the U.S. would get a whole lot more benefit from copying the UK's NHS. We've already got a pretty good navy that works reasonably well (despite the Pacific Fleet's recent problems with seamanship).

    591:

    Just what I was thinking. I really can't see corn or wheat, etc, grown in hydroponics. For that matter, it would use a LOT more water than they do now (which is too much).

    592:

    Soil can have air in the pores, or it can have water, and plants have various ways of dealing with this, which is why you can kill some plants by overwatering them and some by underwatering them.

    I've actually seen wild plants die of carbon starvation, although that was a weird scenario involving overgrazing of vulnerable island plants. So it's not impossible, but generally carbon is not that limited in growth of terrestrial plants. That said, you need to supply CO2 to aquarium plants (CO2 diffuses slowly in water) and you can probably get good results with some species (marijuana?) by jacking the CO2 in greenhouse air.

    The good thing about hydroponics is that all the nutrients are soluble, so that you can get them to the root. Critical nutrients like phosphorus aren't terribly soluble in soil, so the plants have to grow to find pockets of phosphorus, or they have to pay carbs to a mycorrhizal fungus to do it for them (ditto with other insoluble nutrients). In a flow-through hydroponic system, you just pump the nutrient solution through, and the plants don't have to invest in the root mass to seek out nutrients. The fun begins when you decide whether to recirculate nutrient solutions or not. Doing so saves money, if you're clever and know how much more nutrients to add so that you don't blow your profits continually testing nutrient levels. The flip side is that if you get a pathogen in your flow-through system, you can infect every plant quite rapidly. Having an immense warehouse on a single hydroponics system is a recipe for disaster, and I'm quite sure that the professional hydroponicists have all sorts of measures for minimizing disease transmission and costs.

    Note that you can plant things like tomatoes in a bottle of nutrient solution. It's a standard plant physiology class exercise, to demonstrate the effects of shorting different nutrients in each bottle and watching the tomatoes grow in agony. IIRC, you need to have something like an aquarium bubbler in the bottle to keep the solution supplied with air, and you definitely need to cover the bottle with aluminum foil to keep the light out, to prevent nightmarish growths of algae from trashing the setup. It's doable, but what little I know of hydroponic production ag always seems to go with flowing nutrient systems, rather than static ones.

    593:

    whitroth @ 519: If I remember correctly, Libby was the fall guy, and he got hit for obstruction. They never found who actually did it... and the odds are, of course, Cheney himself.

    It was Richard Armitage, Libby & Karl Rove, although Libby was acting on Cheney's orders when he outed her as a CIA agent. The prosecution knew who it was, they didn't have the evidence needed to convict them. Libby was convicted of lying to investigators.

    Outing her didn't place her in personal danger. It ended her ability to effectively work on nuclear non-proliferation. It did endanger all of her contacts from when she was working under non-official cover. Plus burned the front company Brewster Jennings & Associates, endangering all of their former foreign employees (whether they knew the company was a CIA front or not).

    594:

    whitroth @ 523: You're not distinguishing between intent, and commentary - the two songs are *very* different.

    And did I ever hear Draft Dodger Rag? Would you like me to sing it for you, as I have, on occasion, since about a month after I got the album in the sixties?

    Can you carry a tune? Or am I going to have to replace all the shattered glasses in my house?

    Hmmm, maybe I should folk-process it for now. I was thinking of that in the shower just now...

    "Well, I'm just a typical American kid
    From a typical American city
    I believe in McConnell and Donald J
    And keepin' them brown folks down...."

    Don't quit your day job.

    Tom Paxton did an updated version of "Lyndon Johnson Told The Nation" in 2008 to "George Dubya Told The Nation"

    My old National Guard Unit - 30th Brigade Combat Team - is currently deployed in Iraq. I think they're up in the northwest near the Syrian Border (if not actually in Syria).

    595:

    I remember seeing an article that some of the covert personnel she'd been running went dark... so, very probably caused deaths, and loss of humint.

    596:

    you are echoing my point

    I don’t think there was anything effective Iraq could have done to get ready for gulf war 2 even with 13 years prep

    I also don’t think there is much more that Iran can do to “get ready” for the Americans even with several generations to prepare

    Iran would be an order of magnitude more difficult for the Americans to occupy but it isn’t that much more difficult to trounce militarily

    597:

    renke_ r@ 542:

    To paraphrase Yoda, what's taught was "Do, or do not: There is no warning shot".

    That's interesting, is this SOP for the military or a consequence of the typically unarmed British police ("when the guys with guns arrive anyone is warned enough")?

    Our generally armed but still not militarised police[0] has to announce the use of force, including gun usage. And depending on the situation a warning shot is the best way to do this.

    [I'm honestly curious. Your comment made me create a new user after I lost access to my first one years ago :)]

    [0] our politicians do their best to change this...

    Because I was National Guard, when I went through Basic Training, I was required to attend additional training on Civil Disturbance & Riot Control - two sessions taught on weekends while the Regular Army and Army Reserve trainees got a weekend pass. The first weekend was all about Kent State - HOW the National Guard had fucked it up and how we were gonna' be sure the Guard never fucked up like that ever again.

    One of the "lessons learned" from Kent State was you don't fire "warning shots". You don't fire "warning shots" because you can't control where the bullet is going to come down. If you look at the maps of who was killed & wounded at Kent State, it wasn't the demonstrators. It was kids walking to class somewhere behind the crowd of demonstrators, over on the other side of the campus.

    You don't just fire indiscriminately in the direction of a crowd. You are required by the UCMJ to be engaging an identifiable threat. If you cannot see who is shooting at you, you are not allowed to shoot back.

    598:

    By the way, there's a current report that the Iranian attack on the US-hosting bases seem to have been precision strikes.

    https://www.npr.org/2020/01/08/794517031/satellite-photos-reveal-extent-of-damage-at-al-assad-air-base

    599:

    ... North Carolina ... Gerrymandering

    Well it looks like we will most likely wind up with an 8/5 R/D election next fall. Turns out even though the state is nearly 50/50 you have to make make maps that look Gerrymandered to get to a 7/6 outcome or one where most of the districts are a toos up. Those pesky citizens just will no pick places to live that allow such maps. But the current maps (for at least 1 election) seem to at lest leave the population centers intact.

    2022 maps will get very interesting as most of the population grown in NC is in the RDU and CLT areas and is based on tech. Which means those "stinking stupid liberals" have likely made up most of the growth. I'm fairly certain that all of the court fights and map re-drawing for the last 8 years has been based on the 2010 census and the 2020 census will give different results. My city has had 30% to 40% population growth in the last 10 years.

    For those not in the know, NC has been fighting this fight for at least 30 years. D's and R's both have been drawing squirrely maps for decades. Much of is caused by conservative southerners moving to the R side of the fence and upending nearly a century of D rule. But it was a D that no one born in the last 50 years would recognize.

    600:

    Nuts. That comment was supposed to be a reply to JBS on the next comment down. For those trying to follow this thread.

    601:

    Well guess what took Iran off the top of the Google News site for a bit.

    "Harry and Meghan to step back as senior royals"

    [eyeroll]

    602:

    The carbon starvation plants, I take it that was something like every time it sends up a green bit a sheep eats it before it can get going and eventually it runs out of juice to send up another one?

    So the deal with hydroponics is about plant growth following something like d(size)/dt α (current size) x (proportion of green growth) and you can increase the proportion of green growth by minimising the plant's need for roots, and The Result Then Follows?

    603:

    @598: " . . . the Iranian attack on the US-hosting bases seem to have been precision strikes."

    Well, that depends on what you mean by precision. According to the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a non-governmental security think tank of pretty good reputation, the Iranian counterattack consisted of a volley of 15 short range ballistic missiles targeted at the two facilities. CSIS analysis of the missiles used indicates the 10 missile volley were probably Qiam-1's, basically a product-improved Scud, with a Circular Error Probable (CEP) of about 500 meters; that is, half of the missiles launched should land within half a kilometer of the target point. If all you're trying to do is hit a five kilometer wide airfield in a symbolic response, that's good enough. If you're trying to hit anything SPECIFIC on the airfield, good luck.

    The other volley of five (of which four apparently failed in flight) were likely Fateh-series SRBMs, or possibly the Zolfaghar variant, with a likely 300-500 meter CEP. Neither of these missiles is going to hit a point target with any certainty.

    So yes, Iran has provided its prompt, and ineffective, response to the killing of Soleimani. Any more meaningful and lethal response is likely to be on a slow burn; I'm quite sure the protective services detachments around all FO/GOs in the CENTCOM and EUCOM AORs have been on high alert, but as noted previously, that can't be maintained indefinitely. Attacking a distant soft target is also to form for Iran; I for example am not planning on going to any NFL playoff games or the Superbowl (not that I was anyway).

    604:

    The carbon starvation plants, I take it that was something like every time it sends up a green bit a sheep eats it before it can get going and eventually it runs out of juice to send up another one?

    It was deer introduced for hunting to an island with no large herbivores, but otherwise yes. It was sad to see.

    So the deal with hydroponics is about plant growth following something like d(size)/dt α (current size) x (proportion of green growth) and you can increase the proportion of green growth by minimising the plant's need for roots, and The Result Then Follows?

    Something like that. Nutrient uptake is a function of surface area taking up nutrients, so you can't run that to zero, and surface area doesn't generally scale directly with mass (roots are fractals). Since corn can get rather large, you also need something to provide minimum support so that the plant doesn't fall over or out of the hydroponic system (the latter for large vines). And this also works best when your product is green plant (basil, lettuce), a bit less so when the product is fruits or seeds, although again marijuana is an exception. But otherwise, it's a good first approximation if you're trying to engineer a system.

    606:

    If you toss 10 missiles with a 500m CEP you are likely to hit a few things. And one or two might look like dead on hits. But the aiming point may have been 700m away. Or 20m away. Or ...

    607:

    @605: Meh. Looks like a pretty random distribution along the axis of attack to me. Again, "precision guidance" could be anything from accelerometers (the baseline) to GPS-assisted navigation (relatively likely) to radar or electro-optical terminal homing (VERY unlikely for Iran). And again, note that only five of the ten even hit the airfield. I'd like to see the entire image, not just the glory shots for the article.

    If they really wanted to make a point, they'd have dropped them on the embassy compound in the middle of Baghdad. That would, of course, have killed more Iraqis than anything else.

    608: 605, 606 and 607 - Agreed; that's pretty much evidence that they only achieved a 50% hit rate on the airbase (if the number of weapons fired is accurate).
    609:

    I hate to say it, but that story is on a par with "inventor creates engine that runs ten times further, but it was bought by the oil companies to shut him up!"

    Magical lightweight ultra-cheap anti-tank rocket capable of taking out a T-64, that costs $70? I'm perfectly happy to be proved wrong, but it smells badly of confusion over the actual costs of manufacture, and the "take out a tank" part smells of Urban Myth.

    An M-72, which is about the simplest anti-tank rocket fielded in NATO, costs about $700. And it won't kill a tank, it's for lightly-armoured vehicles. The Soviet equivalent is the RPG-7; AIUI, at its cheapest, $500 for the launcher, and $100 per rocket.

    It's not exactly easy to deliver a shaped charge that has sufficient diameter to defeat tank armour (you said 1980s, so that's the 500mm side armour on a T-64). You're looking at a 70-80mm minimum diameter rocket that has to fly at least two hundred meters, preferably further, with sufficiently repeatable accuracy and a sufficiently reliable fuze. It's also got to be sufficiently insensitive to survive rough handling, be dropped out of trucks / planes, work in sub-zero artic, desert heat, and the 100% humidity of the jungle. You need robust protective packaging to help it survive in all these environments until it can be handed to that soldier on the front line. Oh, and it has to have a shelf-life of at least a decade, if not more.

    And you're probably only going to need a couple of hundred thousand of these $70 weapons; so your (say) $15 million total cost of manufacture also has to add all the costs of research and trials of the above, not just manufacture. Covering the cost of the factory, let alone the skilled workforce and labour to make 200,000 of them. That's why the "$70 to build" turns into "$700 per M72" - looking at the Bill of Materials alone, is an unhelpful measurement.

    Now let's be brutally economic. A modern professional soldier probably costs $100K to train; and another $100k a year to employ - they aren't cheap to replace. If you spend $2000 rather than $200 on their rifle, and make them more effective by doing so (i.e. add an optical sight rather than iron sights) it's worth it. If you spend $5000 on a night-vision scope rather than handing them a box full of $20 flares, it's worth it. If you give them proper $200 hiking boots rather than cheap $50 rubbish [1], it's worth it as soon as every tenth soldier doesn't lose time training due to lower limb sprains and blisters

    How many more times would your $300k soldiers have to become casualties trying to close to 200m to use a $700 unguided weapon on a $10,000 Toyota pick-up, for it to be worth them to have used a $20k smart weapon from 1km away?

    [1] Cheap clothing for soldiers was driven by the Cold War economics of mass armies and NBC weapons; you had to carry sufficient stock to allow you to strip them of contaminated clothing equipment and replace it, perhaps several times over.

    610:

    If I was designing a cheap tank killer, I would not try to defeat the armor, I would.. attempt to formulate a gas or air-borne particulate which did a number on combustion engines. A tank with a dead engine is so much scrap metal. Which is the sort of thing I could actually see being done, and then also quietly retired because it turned out the chemistry did laws-of-war-and-practicality violating things to people

    611:

    I really can't see corn or wheat, etc, grown in hydroponics. For that matter, it would use a LOT more water than they do now (which is too much).

    Greenhouses have a LOT more opportunity to recycle than open fields do. And the hydroponics guys boast about their water use. For example, freightfarms (a farm-in-a-container vendor) says you'll use five gallons of water a day. Aerofarms, a farm-in-a-warehouse operator, makes a similar claim. Admittedly they aren't growing wheat.

    612:

    What I'd suggest doing is investing some money in learning about permaculture and/or gardening with perennials, shrubs, and trees.

    Greg can expound on the joys of double digging, and it works. It also isn't great for storing carbon in the soil. If you want to go no till, that also involves no double-digging. Depending on what you can grow in your area (berry bushes, hickories or walnuts, fruit trees), instead of a bed, you may want to establish an edible forest with fruit trees, possibly fruit bushes or onions or sweet potatoes underneath, and a lot less work. Sweet potatoes make a half decent groundcover, I've found, although they grow slowly in my yard.

    You can also do the old Indian three sisters trick of mound gardening, where you make a mound of fertile soil, plant corn at the top, runner or climber beans to go up the corn, planted in the side of the mound (buy some rhizobium bacteria and inoculate the bean seeds to make sure they fix N), and squash between the mounds to keep down weeds. If you get the right varieties of the three, you might get a fair amount of food out of the deal. It's work, but perhaps less than double-digging. Depending on whether you live in an area of former tribal agriculture, you might even be able to get the varieties of corn, beans, and squash that were grown formerly in your area, or south of it (to adjust for climate change). This assumes you like corn, beans, and squash. On a per square foot basis, this is probably the most nutritious form of garden, if you can get it working.

    If you're into things like collards and green onions, you can keep those going for some time, trimming leaves, if you're careful about it. That doesn't take much work, just careful management.

    Just a few thoughts.

    613:

    Of course, all this efficiency gain is cancelled out by harvesting the energy using solar panels, so your land use goes up not down, and even more so if you build multi storey plant parks...

    The solar-takes-up-space meme needs to die. Aside from the recent research on co-use (where solar provides partial shade to agriculture), there's the fact that most solar is on top of something that would be there anywhere. For example, the "solar carports" that I see in California, eg this and this.

    614:

    Nope, been done in Groznyy by the Chechens firing RPGs downwards onto the engine decks of the tanks from buildings above. Likewise, top-attack rounds that fly over the tank and fire an EFP downwards.

    Likewise, it's done by attacking the logistics convoys following your column of tanks - because tanks are thirsty beats, whose fuel consumption is measured in gallons per mile, rather than the other way around.

    There's more ways to kill a tank engine than by magic fuel-munching airborne chemical weapons.

    615:

    In general, the only water loss from hydroponics is the transpiration by the plant, while water irrigating a field is also lost through straight evaporation and into ground water. Therefore, hydroponics is almost inevitably far more water efficient.

    Where it is massively inefficient is that you've got to build the structure, rather than just plow a pre-existing patch of soil. If we're dealing with a situation where we know that within ten years or so we'll be dealing with weather than will kill most crops, then moving to massive warehouse-based pinkhouse systems makes a modicum of sense, if we can replace the fields with climate controlled warehouses at a non-bankrupting price.

    However, I don't think you'll ever be able to feed billions of people off of pinkhouses. If you can, then congratulations, you'll have solved the problem of how to feed a space colony, as a side effect of saving humanity from the effects of mild climate change.

    616:

    If I wanted to kill an engine I'd give it way too much oxygen for 5-10 seconds, thus increasing the power of the combustion, but I'm not sure how to properly deliver the oxygen under battlefield conditions.

    617:

    The research greenhouse staff sprayed all sorts of stuff to try to keep the aphids and whiteflies down. First job as a teenager was doing grunt work (e.g. washing flowerpots) in a botanical laboratory's greenhouses. Even then, several decades ago, the greenhouse whiteflies were resistant to all controls except some hormone-based spray that disrupted development. Roughly the same problem as hard-to-kill bacteria in hospitals. Fumigation was not an option because the laboratory office areas were attached. (That doc is from 1984; a larger pdf I found was on a .ru site so didn't link it.)

    JBS@593 It was Richard Armitage, Libby & Karl Rove, although Libby was acting on Cheney's orders when he outed her as a CIA agent. I was mainly marveling at Judith Miller re Omertà. It was billed at the time as a press-freedom thing, and it was to some extent, but mainly it was protecting the vile and illegal Republican political operation that you detail. She has a lot of blood on her hands. (Re the Iraq war #2.)

    123@562 our Voice will sing soon. I might have worked out what that means (a while ago). Anyway, singing is good.

    No war (US <-> Iran) is good. (Unhappy about UIA Flight PS752, obviously.)

    618:

    We're talking about using solar power to provide power to light indoor farms. Even in heavily urbanised countries the land used for building is a small fraction of the land used for agriculture, and the land used for things with roofs that you can put panels on top of instead of for the spaces in between them is a smaller fraction still.

    619:

    Nitrous oxide containers shot into the intake?

    Might get laughing tank crews, at least.

    620:

    You'd have to find a way to burst an oxygen tank right next to the vehicle you needed to take down without using fire, possibly getting the windage right if your container wasn't big enough/didn't burst with enough force. I'm afraid it's not an easy problem.

    621:

    Where it is massively inefficient is that you've got to build the structure, rather than just plow a pre-existing patch of soil.

    Every big city has derelict warehouses. And I doubt that the roof over their head is the major cost, anyway. The money is going into coddling the product.

    You seem to be overlooking the fact that those companies I linked to, are commercially viable organizations. They may be a bit boutique, they may be niche, but they exist and even have competitors. Laugh-a while you can, monkey boy. That's what the computer industry did when those wretched, unreliable little IBM PCs arrived on the market. Everyone important knew that only the REAL machines scaled to manly workloads.

    I don't think you'll ever be able to feed billions of people off of pinkhouses.

    Well, maybe not billions. But when warehouses are the only source of reliable food, they'll be able to feed exactly 100% of the remaining populace.

    622:

    Propane will kill a diesel by providing it with an uncontrolled source of fuel, so it revs out of control, and probably then starts providing itself with another uncontrolled source of fuel by burning its own crankcase oil so it remains out of control even when the propane has gone away. You have to stall it out, or suffocate it with CO2, or lift the decompression lever with a long pole, or run away. If I was a tank designer I might provide a CO2 bottle in anticipation of the engine running away on its own oil for other more likely reasons, but I've no idea what the actual situation is.

    Petrol engines you can kill by feeding them acetylene, which is unstable under even mild compression, causing violent detonations in the cylinders and breaking things with the shock wave.

    The problem is that something the size of a tank engine is moving a fuck of a lot of air through itself, and you have no real means of concentrating your attack gas on the air intake. So you have to release a totally unfeasible amount of gas to get the engine to breathe enough of it in to make any difference. You'd almost certainly do a lot better to make the propane bottle into a bomb than to try and make the engine eat its contents raw.

    623:

    But when warehouses are the only source of reliable food, they'll be able to feed exactly 100% of the remaining populace.

    Some of us are not entirely comfortable with solutions to climate catastrophe that start with "first we kill billions of people". You can dress that up with "monkey boy" and other insults if you like, you still sound genocidal.

    624:

    Not really.

    Civ air traffic is re-routing

    MIummMy in the middle caught that and altered a few phrases. Not enough esoteric stuff which original post contained. Check time-stamp. Hey, ho, let us all try and pretend that modernity exists and so on and so forth. (UAE / S oppo intel aside).

    Phone was cut off and a lot of hard slaps promised. Who knows if the original post even exists anymore, right?

    babyyodasippingfromcup.gif

    https://giphy.com/gifs/baby-yoda-Wn74RUT0vjnoU98Hnt

    "It is the Way"

    ~

    Why create worlds when you can re-order reality, eh?

    And yeah: sadly some people will die.

    Young, bright, large, shining, blue, gifted, joyous, students.

    Not sure the message that "we will destroy your future" is sensible, but hey. "Accidents happen".

    .>

    "Chaotic Evil"

    No. They're quite good at this shit. Name me a nuclear physicist over the age of 30 in Iran.

    [[[That's a get fucked and fuck off message btw ~ for realz]]]

    625:

    Sigh, and the peons aren't going to understand this, so step down the ghoulish hordes of nonsense mongers and over-litigious middle tiers.

    "It's a miracle no lives were lost, not even Iraqis".

    180 people died and your messaging is like Curt Kobain atm.

    Thatswhatwewantfromourangels.gif

    ~

    "Corrupt"

    Let's just say [redacted] learnt about MENA. She's a BIT FUCKING DISTRAUGHT RIGHT NOW.

    626:

    Triptych.

    Now grow up and consider if these are both true:

    1) Iran losing its youth in a tragic accident during BOOMER warmongering will pay off in 20 years, I mean, most of them are dual nationals and CANADIAN, right?

    2) RU hacked S300 is a BIG WIN for [insert country] cyberops

    3) Don't fuck with Chaos, bitch, random shit is random

    4) Cheering death mean's you're "Death Eaters" in zooomer terms

    Meh.

    5) Male orgasm required large sacrifice - yay! death!

    ~

    "Chaotic Evil"

    You really should check the views of your publisher, dear: he's kinda... well. Let's just say he doesn't see a future for Palestine, Muslims or a few other types. In private, allegedly, according to some scurrilous sources

    Watches Romance Novelists implode due to Embedded Racism

    claps

    Now do Israeli linked ones.

    https://giphy.com/gifs/baby-yoda-Wn74RUT0vjnoU98Hnt

    627:

    Oh, and check oil prices.

    That +5% went into, well... -5%. A RAM CO lost a few billion, Kush and friends lost a slight % on their slavery tabs. Kenyan elites are crying. And so on.

    "Addict"

    "It's Permanent"

    Sigh.

    Whose logo is this: "We Create Worlds"?

    ~

    There's always hope. Run that one through your "AI" and see how %chance% %RNG it occurred.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FOUqQt3Kg0

    628:

    Some of us are not entirely comfortable with solutions to climate catastrophe that start with "first we kill billions of people". You can dress that up with "monkey boy" and other insults if you like, you still sound genocidal.

    "Monkey Boy" is a quote from a science fiction comedy. Uttered magnificently by John Lithgow.

    I don't recall suggesting we kill people. I suggested we save as many as possible. If Heteromeles' apparently reflexive pessimism is warranted, we won't succeed in saving that many. I'm more of a techno-optimist, and have spent happy hours looking at the scrappy little companies that could grow up to save us. Or anyway save a lot of us.

    629:

    Pigeon @ 622: Propane will kill a diesel by providing it with an uncontrolled source of fuel, so it revs out of control, and probably then starts providing itself with another uncontrolled source of fuel by burning its own crankcase oil so it remains out of control even when the propane has gone away. You have to stall it out, or suffocate it with CO2, or lift the decompression lever with a long pole, or run away. If I was a tank designer I might provide a CO2 bottle in anticipation of the engine running away on its own oil for other more likely reasons, but I've no idea what the actual situation is.

    Petrol engines you can kill by feeding them acetylene, which is unstable under even mild compression, causing violent detonations in the cylinders and breaking things with the shock wave.

    The problem is that something the size of a tank engine is moving a fuck of a lot of air through itself, and you have no real means of concentrating your attack gas on the air intake. So you have to release a totally unfeasible amount of gas to get the engine to breathe enough of it in to make any difference. You'd almost certainly do a lot better to make the propane bottle into a bomb than to try and make the engine eat its contents raw.

    Thermobaric munitions can be effective against tanks. Don't have to penetrate the armor if you can shake up the contents enough to render them combat ineffective. Plus consuming all the oxygen in the immediate vicinity will likely stall the engine.

    630:

    You should mention it by name: Buckaroo Banzai

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=345uegSj-zQ

    And a similar quote from the same movie:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8w16SCFBo4

    631:

    I heard this on the ABC's Science Show with Robyn Williams a few weeks ago, and now an article has popped up on the Guardian - basically bioreactors that produce all sorts of useful molecules, including a flour that apparently can work well for bread:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/08/lab-grown-food-destroy-farming-save-planet

    Powered by solar, too. I hope it reaches the potential it appears to have.

    632:

    Very well played by Iran I must say. Whether they were trying to do a missile strike close enough to US soldiers to put in a serious scare, but not kill anyone, or it was just a happy accident, it was brilliant. Scared Trump enough that he has now claimed victory and ... backed down with tail between legs. Apparently his advisors managed to persuade him just how incredibly stupid he was being. So the net result of all this is that Iraq is now asking the US to leave, and Iran is going nuclear, in a world political situation where finger wagging is all anyone including Israel can do about it, after Trump's crazy murder stunt. BTW, this settles once and for all that Trump is not Putin's puppet. If he was, none of this would have happened and we'd all be better off.

    Now we have the Ukrainian plane mystery, which it seems was not an accident. Since most of the dead were Iranian, this couldn't be Iranian, nor do I see it meeting the needs of the US or Israel. My guess: a Ukrainian inside job by the neo-Nazis of the Right Guard, formerly on the payroll of Jewish oligarch Kolomoisky but no longer, now that his puppet Zelensky is talking peace with Russia. Kolomoisky is a big investor in that Ukrainian airline, and Nazis don't like Jews who are not paying them off, especially if they are making peace noises.

    633:

    While I am a pessimist by nature, the problem I see with climate change is that a) it's a real problem, b) unlike nuclear proliferation, it can't be solved by leaders acting like ordinary people (ordinary people generally decide it's not worth starting a nuclear war. All the leaders came to that conclusion, hence no nuclear war) c) What's predictably happening, and what has been happening for years, are breakdowns in infrastructure and food production. Without these vast and intricate systems, the supportable population of the world goes from billions to (at best) hundreds of millions. We also lose a lot of species, and if it gets as bad as predicted, we also lose major ecosystems, most especially coral reefs but also (at least for centuries) crop lands that support hundreds of millions of people now, so that even if civilization survives, it can't recover to where it is now. These are problems that will take 5,000,000 to 20,000,000 years for the biosphere to regenerate from, based on what has happened in previous such situations.

    Even though I'm willing to publicly predict it, I don't want any of my predictions to come true. While I think it's technically feasible to deal with climate change even now, Greta Thunberg is right: to avoid it, we need to all be mobilizing to save our lives. And not only are we not mobilizing, there are all sorts of social pressures to stop us from mobilizing and impede any efforts to try to make for safer future, from leaders denying the problem to people complaining about it and doing nothing while their childrens' futures burn on the horizon.

    And the nasty part is that, even though I'm willing to predict that our species survives all that, even that prediction is met with derision. All I have to say is: wow. This is what passes for optimism around here?

    634:

    Heteromeles Aphids ... diute wash-up liquid in a spary. Whitefly ... uggggg, um err .... the detergent gets them too, but you always miss a few & back they come. sweet potato, taro, and possibly manioc YUCK ... PUKE .... BLEUGH .... Spuds & Jerusalem Artichokes ( just open the windows a bit ..... )

    I do not do "double digging" - far too much work, far too much disturbance. I will hoe the surface for weeds & distribute horse-manure on top & water it if not raining. The worms & other small macrolife do the rest. I've converted some pretty-rubbish heavy London clay with almost no discernabke small critters into really fertile, moderately well-drained, yet water retentive stuff, with LOTS of creepies in it. The resulting peas, beans, leeks, onions, etc seem to like it & it does wonders for the raspberries.

    JBS London is officially USDA 9 though it's safer to assume 8 most of the time. 7 is cold by my standards - what's your rainfall, & how is it seasonally distributed - that's really important. [ People forget that SE ENgland ir really dry - "normal" here is only 550mm p.a. ] Tomatoes at the back, not planted out until the middle of May, having been raised from seed sown in the first week of March? Permanent plantation at the front of Chinese Chives/flat-leaved garlic/Chinese Garlic/Allium tuberosum ( All the sme plant, different names ) Dwarf Beans are good, provided they get enough to drink

    Pigeon The great advantage of LED's is that the amount of "juice" they use is tiny, compared to old-fashioned sources I'm just-about managing to overwinter some chilis under pink/blue growlights, on top of a very low-wattage heated mat, for instance.

    UIA flight PS752 The Iraninas are in a bind - they have the "Black Box", but, for obvious reasons, don't want to hand it to Boeing ( Which is what they are supposed to do ) They've got to find someone internationally trustworthy, who won't be leaned on by Trump to produce the "correct" result. Not easy.

    Offler I DO HOPE THAT WORKS. Next - to stop someone buying it up & either killing it, because it threatens profits, or renting it out at a ridiculosly high price. It really has to go "open source" to save the Planet ... Thoughts?

    635:

    Every big city has derelict warehouses. And I doubt that the roof over their head is the major cost, anyway. The money is going into coddling the product.

    And it is almost always cheaper to tear them down and build a new warehouse than fix the "derelict" ones. They are usually in rough shape to put it mildly. And forget putting solar on the roof of one of these things. No way no how.

    The main reason they are not just torn down is for "historic" appearances.

    636:

    I just love the way some of you have approached "this approach needs at least ten times as much built area as the total so far" with "maybe we can repurpose what we have".

    That's not how "build ten time what we already have" works. Even if you slip a factor of ten in, you're still going to need to reuse every single non-residential building, from parliaments to prisons.

    Farms are big, y'all.

    637:

    I was sure "monkey boy" was the name Zaphod Beeblebrox used when he couldn't remember Arthur Dent's name, but googling seems to say either I misremembered, or I've skipped into an alternate timeline that is exactly the same as the one I came from, except for that detail. I miss home.

    I'm certainly in the "first we kill billions" simply because I think that bit is already done. It's just taking us a while to die. I was a techno optimist until about 5 years ago. I really thought that if we pulled out all the stops we could save billions of lives. I think now the deed is done. We're at the point where we've been annoyingly poked by the polonium tipped umbrella a couple of days ago, but we're still walking around with hardly any symptoms.

    638:

    Here we convert them into residential accommodation and sell it for lots of money, so now yuppies bray where once dockers hawked and swore. And then winter happens and it rains a lot in Wales and the yuppies start swearing just like the dockers. http://live.staticflickr.com/5549/12510127415_05a86ef20d_b.jpg

    Solar panels on top? There may be planning arsery to deal with, but structurally you could certainly put them there if you wanted to, since they fix up the roof at the same time as they fix up the rest of the building.

    639:

    It is equally compatible with some snake oil salesman high up in an arms company suckering a bunch of (technically) clueless politicians and generals. That is common practice (not just in that context) in order to get a 'cost plus' contract, which then ends up years late, vastly more expensive, less capable and out of date by the time it appears. If it is not cancelled, of course.

    640:

    Greta Thunberg is right: to avoid it, we need to all be mobilizing to save our lives.

    I am one-hundred percent with you. We are contemplating major life-style changes in our house. Unfortunately, it's a rental, so we can't solarize it or make too many changes. However, we can garden and will begin doing so this spring, with particular intent to plant something carbon-absorbing.

    But it will take everyone on the planet pulling in the same direction, which is unlikely, (though it does present a use case for nukes - you won't close that oil refinery? We'll close it for you...)

    The really great thing, as the GND people seem to have figured out, is that going full-on no-carbon will employ everyone for the next couple-hundred years. The terrible thing is that oil-industry profits are measured in carbon-measurement increases, and they've invested billions in killing billions.

    641:

    "Harry and Meghan to step back as senior royals"

    This is a UK media distraction attack on the real news which is that the new government voted to:

    • Not extend automatic permanent residency rights to EU citizens settled in and living in the UK post-Brexit

    • Not provide financial aid for EU citizens applying for permanent residence who can't afford the Home Office application fees (which are not small)

    • Get rid of the Erasmus+ Europe-wide academic funding scheme (which is overwhelmingly useful to poor but bright kids who want to pursue higher education)

    • Remove child refugee rights

    • Remove alignment with EU standards on workers rights

    In other words, it's a distraction from a massive concerted attack on civil rights in their first week in office. So wave a royal scandal in front of the press! Nobody will notice.

    642:

    USDA classifications are all based on the lowest winter temperature, which is hopelessly misleading for vegetables.

    http://www.u-r-g.co.uk/faqclimate.htm

    643:

    Didn't you get the memo, Thou Shalt Ignore Considerations Of Scale When Devising Replacements For Agriculture? It seems to go round every time the subject comes up.

    644:

    Chlorine trifluoride is the solution! And also the answer to all your problems!

    ClF3 is an oxidizing agent so powerful it'll set fire to asbestos and sand, probably tank armour too, and it combusts explosively with water and water-based objects (such as rocket scientists and tank crews). If it gets into the engine manifold, that's it for the air filter, the turbocharger, and anything else it touches, all the way to the cylinders and piston heads.

    However it's a hydra to handle on the battlefield (the Nazis tried it) and almost certainly qualifies as a chemical weapon if you use it as a vapour or aerosol.

    645:

    Well, you have to admit that Bozo is consistent. If he had kept a promise to the public, we would all be wondering what was wrong with him.

    646:

    Chlorine trifluoride is the solution! And also the answer to all your problems!

    "I'm telling you, Molotov cocktails work. Anytime I had a problem and I threw a Molotov cocktail, boom! Right away, I had a different problem." - Jason Mendoza, The Good Place

    647:

    Since most of the dead were Iranian, this couldn't be Iranian

    A third of the dead were Canadian. Could it be a fiendish plot by the Bloc Quebecois ...?

    It's about as likely as your conspiracy theory. In other words, not.

    Because, seriously, planes crash more often due to a maintenance cock-up than a bomb on board, and the Ukrainian 737 that went down had come out of scheduled maintenance just two days before the accident.

    648:

    Ah yes, the Third Reich: Still the only people to have developed an (at least nominally) production fighter using a fuel that could dissolve the pilot!

    649:

    In the UK, your derelict warehouses -- at least, older ones -- tend to be rebuilt and turned into apartments: the land is worth more that way.

    There's also the crazy legislative nonsense that makes brown-field development (i.e. knocking down derelict buildings and replacing them) liable for VAT (tax, at 20%), while green-field development (on unbuilt land -- if you can find any that isn't locked down in green belt status or in use for farming) is VAT-free.

    But that's a local problem.

    A more serious problem is that many older warehouses are currently empty because our need for warehouse capacity has fallen due to just-in-time supply chains. But as the climate destabilizes, those supply chains will become unreliable (and we'll also need food stockpiles/reserves), so we'll need more warehouse space again -- ideally close to the population centres.

    650:

    Well, my first thoughts involved the word "Boeing", and that the best way of proving that (either way) would be to actually trust the Air Accident Investigation Branch with the investigation. I'm not sure I see the Iranians doing that...

    651:

    Dunno about the "boy" but Zaphod was certainly fond of saying things like "hey wow, the monkey spoke" when Arthur said something sensible that he didn't want to deal with.

    Google? The publication dates for those books are all fucked up, too. Hey you, Whitehouse, ha ha charade you are.

    652:

    You're thinking of older British warehouses, which tend to be sturdy brick buildings with decent window area for illumination and stuff like staircases as well as wells, winches, and loading docks, thrown up by Victorian engineers who didn't have computers and therefore tended to over-engineer everything. A style that persisted right up until the second world war.

    Older American warehouses are mostly windowless tin boxes designed for fork-lift trucks; or they're sprawling things about the size of a city, built for second world war logistics, and too damn big to economically renovate. Anything of equivalent age to the British warehouses you're thinking of has already been demolished (unless it's in an older city -- e.g. New York or Chicago -- which are much more "European" in structure and design).

    653:

    As Greg Tingey points out, they don't trust the USA not to pressure their investigators. I wouldn't, either.

    While TPTP tend to blame pilots for failing to handle impossible situations, the most likely result is that they would blame maintenance staff for missing the dot on an 'i' in a morass of opaque instructions.

    In fact, a mistake in maintenance would be a front-runner if we were betting on the reason, but a second factor could well have been yet another Boeing misdesign.

    654:

    Chlorine trifluoride is the solution! And also the answer to all your problems!

    I kind of (read: not at all) would like to see a chlorine trifluoride anti-tank weapon.

    However, I'd think the byproducts of it eating through mostly everything, like the tank, would probably be also counted as chemical weapons as they'd be somewhat difficult to contain. (It produces easily for example hydrogen fluoride and hydrogen chloride, which are not... nice substances either.)

    655:

    On the subject of the crashed Ukrainian 737, ignore the mass media speculation about a shoot-down.

    One of the best sites for this sort of situation is the Aviation Herald, which documents (exhaustively!) investigations into civil aviation incidents and accidents and only reports verified facts (the comments are something else, though).

    Here's their continually updated log of the flight PS-752 investigation.

    Photos are circulating on social media purporting to show chunks of a missile warhead but these are not verified as coming from this incident, and the Iranian AIB's chairman is notably cool on allegations of a shootdown or sabotage (he's quoted at length).

    656:

    The Soviet equivalent is the RPG-7; AIUI, at its cheapest, $500 for the launcher, and $100 per rocket.<\i>

    Curiously, although the world is somewhat awash in the real thing, there's a company in Texas that's marketing an Americanized version, the PSRL-1, which costs ten times as much.

    http://www.airtronic-usa.com/wp-content/uploads/psrl-1.pdf

    Also curiously, the PSRL-1 has been spotted in Ukraine. (And is very likely included in the currently infamous aid package.)

    https://www.militarytimes.com/off-duty/gearscout/2018/05/22/ukrainian-troops-spotted-with-american-made-but-still-russian-styled-weapons/

    https://medium.com/dfrlab/american-lethal-weapons-could-already-be-on-the-ukrainian-front-line-9dc6fd98630d

    A final curiosity is that the manufacturer, Airtronic-USA, was rescued financially in 2014 by a somewhat shadowy investment firm and moved from the Chicago area to a town north of San Antonio that's about 20 miles from the CIA's covert arms depot at Camp Stanley.

    http://airtronic-usa.com/press/airtronic-usa-receives-multimillion-dollar-us-investment/

    And Airtronic-USA's CEO is a former CIA case officer.

    https://www.advisorycloud.com/profile/Richard-Vandiver

    You could make a story out of that, I think.

    657:

    Who mentioned the USA (other than the aircraft being a Boeing)? The AAIB are British, and have a reputation for honesty to maintain.

    OH and FWIW I have not, and will not, speculate or opine on anything other than photographic evidence.

    658:
    have a reputation for honesty to maintain.

    Let's hope their desire for an honest reputation is greater than bond credit rating agencies was in the lead-up to 2008.

    I think it was Michael Lewis who reported that someone said to one of the rating agencies: "You could develop the reputation for being the honest rating agency." There were no takers. Dishonesty pays better, and if all the rating agencies are lying, the punters have to accept that a lot of what they're told is shit.

    659:

    Ah. I am not fascinated by this area, so don't track which acronyms mean what, and you may be right that they are still genuinely impartial. I can't see Iran trusting us, either, given our brown-nosing of the USA.

    Incidentally, I suggest that you start distrusting unsupported photographic evidence when produced by a technically powerful organisation. It's now possible for those to forge such data so well that it can't be detected.

    But PLEASE note that I am NOT supporting the 'evil intent' theories - I am merely pointing out that there will be serious pressure to blame the pilots and/or maintenance staff and exculpate Boeing. It's not as if it hasn't been done often enough in the UK by other bodies :-(

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-14130867

    660:

    They are certainly better than THAT! And they are not profit-making.

    Unfortunately, over the past four decades, many previously impartial UK institutions have become subservient to the establishment and stopped doing or saying anything that seriously conflicts with its line, and I keep wondering which will be next.

    661:

    256: I'd be thrilled if you made that advice to Graydon a public post here on the blog.
    Seconded - assuming, of course, that it's OK with OGH and Troutwaxer.

    662:

    No. And this subject is closed.

    663:

    Greg Tingey @ 634: I do not do "double digging" - far too much work, far too much disturbance.
    I will hoe the surface for weeds & distribute horse-manure on top & water it if not raining.
    The worms & other small macrolife do the rest. I've converted some pretty-rubbish heavy London clay with almost no discernabke small critters into really fertile, moderately well-drained, yet water retentive stuff, with LOTS of creepies in it.
    The resulting peas, beans, leeks, onions, etc seem to like it & it does wonders for the raspberries.

    JBS
    London is officially USDA 9 though it's safer to assume 8 most of the time.
    7 is cold by my standards - what's your rainfall, & how is it seasonally distributed - that's really important.[ People forget that SE ENgland ir really dry - "normal" here is only 550mm p.a.]
    Tomatoes at the back, not planted out until the middle of May, having been raised from seed sown in the first week of March?
    Permanent plantation at the front of Chinese Chives/flat-leaved garlic/Chinese Garlic/Allium tuberosum (All the sme plant, different names )
    Dwarf Beans are good, provided they get enough to drink

    I don't know if what I'm thinking is double digging or not. I've just heard that term used to describe what I want to do. Till up a spot that's 4'x 8' (122cm x 244cm) to remove the "grass", place a frame made from 2x10 lumber around the spot & fill the frame with the topsoil from my composting. It's really black dirt just like what garden centers sell as "potting soil".

    Average rainfall is about 45 inches per year (114.3 cm) fairly evenly distributed. The wettest month gets close to 5 inches (12.7 cm) and the driest month gets a bit less than 3 inches (7.62 cm).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raleigh,_North_Carolina#Climate

    664:

    But what's the evaporation? The reason that the UK is so 'wet' is NOT the amount of rainfall we get (which is half of what you get where Greg and I live) but the fact that the evaporation is so low. Given your temperatures, I would expect the potential evaporation to be at least as much as the rainfall, and possibly even the actual evaporation. It makes far more difference to plants than most people realise.

    665:

    paws4thot @ 650: Well, my first thoughts involved the word "Boeing", and that the best way of proving that (either way) would be to actually trust the Air Accident Investigation Branch with the investigation. I'm not sure I see the Iranians doing that...

    It was a 737-800, not the 737 Max, which remains grounded. The model has been in service since 1998.

    From the BBC:

    Iran's Civil Aviation Organisation (CAOI) chief Ali Abedzadeh said: "The plane, which was initially headed west to leave the airport zone, turned right following a problem and was headed back to the airport at the moment of the crash."

    Mr Abedzadeh added that witnesses saw the plane "on fire" before the crash, and that pilots hadn't made any distress calls before trying to return to Imam Khomeini airport.

    He said the initial findings had been sent to Ukraine and the US, where Boeing is headquartered. Sweden and Canada had also been sent the findings, as their nationals were on board, he added.

    Mr Danylov said that the Ukrainian security council was examining various possible causes, including an anti-aircraft missile strike, a mid-air collision, an engine explosion or an explosion inside the plane carried out by a terrorist.

    The investigation would include experts who worked on the probe into the 2014 downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 in eastern Ukraine, Mr Danylov added.

    Ukraine has declared 9 January a day of national mourning.

    So it does seem that Boeing will have some participation in the investigation despite the current bad relationship between Iran and the U.S.

    Unless and until I see evidence to the contrary I'm guessing it was a failure in one of the engines with a subsequent fire causing an uncontrollable aircraft.

    666:

    until I see evidence to the contrary I'm guessing it was a failure in one of the engines Bad guess, in that the 737-800 was designed to be flown on one engine.

    667:

    to Martin @609:

    An M-72, which is about the simplest anti-tank rocket fielded in NATO, costs about $700. And it won't kill a tank, it's for lightly-armoured vehicles. The Soviet equivalent is the RPG-7; AIUI, at its cheapest, $500 for the launcher, and $100 per rocket.

    I will have to correct this here - the direct analog would be RPG-18, which is a little bit more modern, and used to be very popular among military and even criminals in more turbulent days. Modern RPGs are just better in every aspect, so you arm yourself with like 2 of them, and pray that you will never, ever, meet with anything even remotely classified as "heavy armor".

    Now let's be brutally economic. A modern professional soldier probably costs $100K to train; and another $100k a year to employ - they aren't cheap to replace. If you spend $2000 rather than $200 on their rifle, and make them more effective by doing so (i.e. add an optical sight rather than iron sights) it's worth it. If you spend $5000 on a night-vision scope rather than handing them a box full of $20 flares, it's worth it.

    I will allow myself a sort of speculation here. After last big conflict in middle east, most of the forces US has been relying on to cost probably less than $1000 per person, since they are mostly recruited from local population, armed by their own local recruiters and most of the cost goes into other budgets. That is, by IMHO, mostly because US does not send it's own soldiers into combat anymore, and sends out hired hands that are cheaper and you don't have to report to anyone about losses. Well, in PMC department it is probably more expensive, but it's not like there's too much worry about that. Therefore the real personnel trained for combat is the last ditch measures and will be pulled out as soon as any possibility of really unfavorable engagement arises, with the speed of a catapult. It's just too costly to operate otherwise, and modern "wars" are all about costs.

    Therefore, if this will continue at the same pace, the most reliable warrior in US arsenal will become and remain a poorly-trained uneducated peasant or unemployed urban youth that costs like $300 to recruit and train, $100 to equip (most of the equipment comes from the donations, anyway) and about as much together to support in his short but glorious life in the name of freedom, sense of self-importance and promises of better life. (Essentially you have a mirror image of any "poor" nation's combatant that NATO has been engaged with since... well, long time ago, anyway.) Armed with cheap, disposable and even untraceable weapon that would tear enemy armor like a stack of wet tissues it would be a walking nightmare, but, unfortunately, nobody in the entire world has been making enough progress here.

    Nope, been done in Groznyy by the Chechens firing RPGs downwards onto the engine decks of the tanks from buildings above. Likewise, top-attack rounds that fly over the tank and fire an EFP downwards.

    So, forget about killing tanks with some newly brewed space technology magic, pretty much there are only two reliable methods left to disable them - ATGMs and sabotage, sometimes both, multiplied by negligence and ignorance. Modern tanks, especially MBTs, were designed in Cold War, and can withstand everything thrown at them, including nuclear explosion at certain distance (with hermetic sealing, too) - with all the "modern" stuff waxed over it for the military-industrial complex. A tank should be able to withstand thermobaric charges, firebombing and several penetrating hits from shaped charge munitions in non-vital part, and still be repairable and/or operable. Else it is not a tank, but a parody of one. The situation with armor in Grozny was dire like that from combination of lack of proper support, equipment, training and tactics - essentially, a betrayal of epic proportions - and yet it was not complete collapse like one should have expected.

    668:

    There's failure and there's failure. The engine just stopping is one thing, but an engine that has exploded and taken out a wing tank is another kettle of fish. But there's sod all actual evidence yet, and this is premature speculation, so I'll stop now.

    669:

    Following up on my previous comment. The International Civil Aviation Organization has protocols for accident investigation. Iran's Civil Aviation Organisation (CAOI) is a member organization of the ICAO and appears to be following their protocols in this investigation ... which explains why they're sending information to Boeing despite the current difficulties between our two countries. They're doing their investigation "by the book" (in this case the ICAO protocol).

    670:

    "...almost certainly qualifies as a chemical weapon if you use it as a vapour or aerosol."

    <accent type="stupid"> Indiet, mih aerosol ies a kimikal vipun. </accent>

    According to wikipedia the Nazi tests found it performed excellently as a combined incendiary and poison gas - much as you'd expect - and its boiling point is 11°C, so add a little exothermy and even in winter you don't have much choice about what form you use it in.

    For knocking out tank engines though you've still got pretty much the same dilution problem that you have with more ordinary gases. A Challenger engine pumps 500 litres of air a second, so you need to supply a lot of gas to get a damaging concentration to exist inside it for a damaging length of time. Metal engines are a lot less sensitive to poisoning than meat ones are.

    To make the engine kill itself by burning its own metal from the inside needs even greater concentrations. I reckon what you'd be more likely to see would be (immediately) extreme pressure spikes in the cylinders from greatly accelerated combustion of fuel, and (a bit later) bits of burning air filter getting sucked into the turbocharger and blowing it up. Or if you achieved a higher concentration the exhaust valves might disintegrate first.

    Which suggests that if you really did have to design a tank to cope with people trying to make it breathe ClF3 you might want to give the Leyland L60 another look :)

    671:

    Eh - I've got it!

    A GPS-guided Russian eagle flew into the engine.

    672:

    paws4thot @ 666:

    until I see evidence to the contrary I'm guessing it was a failure in one of the engines

    Bad guess, in that the 737-800 was designed to be flown on one engine.

    "with a subsequent fire causing an uncontrollable aircraft." Fire on board can make an aircraft uncontrollable even with both engines operating.

    Got to take into account witness statements that the aircraft was on fire IN THE AIR before it crashed. The most likely source of fire visible to witnesses on the ground is going to be one of the engines.

    673:

    I've already listened to several opinions on causes and outcomes of the catastrophe and here's several points I gathered:

  • Technical conditions: the flight fell, most obviously, from a very prompt technical malfunction and everybody admitted that. Nobody said anything about the missile and nobody even remotely suggests that it was an enemy action. Except, you know, these guys. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/09/world/middleeast/iran-plane-crash-ukraine.html I've also heard the opinion of aviation expert that a sudden disappearance of communication might have been caused by widespread power failure on board, so that even experience pilots wouldn't be able to even send distress signal.

  • The really strange things happen in coincidence department. The dots connect people from Canada, from Ukraine, and from Iran - the first leg is obviously Canada and Ukraine close relations. The second leg is the fact that Ukraine is a retired nuclear power, and quite obviously still operating power plants. And Iran just openly denounced almost all agreements established in previous years. Nobody confirmed anything on public, but you can be sure that everybody with intelligence already know the names of the passengers down to the last person. https://apnews.com/e043255bd33ab318f71d1947716a5b94

  • Right now it looks like nothing is clear and everybody is looking at everybody else with wide open eyes, like in ongoing Mexican standoff in the middle of aforementioned triangle, except there are even more pairs of eyes peering in them from the backstage. Because, you see, IF this is not a coincidence, not a random missile, not a open confrontation and not even the false flag operation but something from the same actors that did in the latest attack, we are now at the gates of hell. And especially Boeing corporation (but probably not).

  • Orpnhfr vs gur ehzbe vf rira erzbgryl pbeerpg gurer'f n cbjre bhg gurer gung pna penfu nal O737 bhg gurer vs vg qrfverf fb. Be xvyy nal crefba vg jnagf va na nvefgevxr Rirelobql vf va qnatre/rot13 It's not like something similar did not happen before, but right now it exploded in the middle of very sensitive conflict that has captured the attention of absolutely everyone.

    674:

    @670: Y'all missed or ignored the key point in Martin's post @614:

    Likewise, it's done by attacking the logistics convoys following your column of tanks - because tanks are thirsty beats [sic], whose fuel consumption is measured in gallons per mile, rather than the other way around.

    The problem is not killing A tank, it's stopping MANY tanks. Most modern MBTs have a fully fuelled range of under 200 km. Even when not moving long distances, they're using fuel to power their systems and maneuver tactically, so refueling is normally done on the order of every one to two days. Take out their tankers, and their tactical air defenses, and they can be plinked by attack aircraft at leisure. This, of course, assumes you have the time and space to allow them to run out their fuel before dealing with them.

    675:

    ED @ 664 NO JBS is getting 45" a year, I get 23 ( 23*25.4 = 584 ) so I understated the amount we get, but it's still not a lot

    676:

    Sadly? Not just " Warehouse " conversions.There are new builds that, in the UK, have been made to look like those ever so fashionable Warehouse Conversion buildings.And this in brownfield sites. If there are buildings in Edinburgh that haven't been turned into blocks of expensive flats, or some such similar project, then its because the Scots haven't yet caught up with London's property development trends in trendiness ... " Whitechapel Bell Foundry future:bitter row erupts over plans to turn historic site into 95-room boutique hotel, restaurant and bar " https://www.homesandproperty.co.uk/property-news/whitechapel-bell-foundry-bitter-row-erupts-over-plans-to-turn-historic-site-into-95room-boutique-a127941.html

    677:

    Eh? To a gardening approximation, 23" IS half of 45"!

    678:

    Given your Chosen Secret Identity on this site, 'Pigeon '? I am surprised that you have missed This ... https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2152027/china-takes-surveillance-new-heights-flock-robotic-doves-do-they

    679:

    You and #607: horse hocky. Several hit directly on the base.

    Sorry, this is beginning to sound like "only the US or Anglo-Saxons can make accurate missiles, furriners can't do it that kind of tech".

    I'll also think of all the eastern Europeans who seem to be the ones writing the most effective malware, but nah....

    680:

    Charlie: My first thought was that this was just Boeing again, but this model ain't the bad one, I've heard it claimed it actually has a very good safety record. I was basing my looking towards conspiracies, something I don't usually do, on what I read from that New York Times article Sleepingroutine dismissively posted a link to (673), which made what sounded like a strong argument that this couldn't have just been an accident. And it definitely could not be a missile, plenty of eyewitness accounts disprove that. But engines catching fire, if not accidental, does point to a Ukrainian "inside job" of one kind or another, being as this is a Ukrainian airline with Ukrainian mechanics doing that maintenance a few days before the flight. It is more than plausible that part of the deal between Kolomoisky and the Right Sector was getting some of 'em jobs at his airline as mechanics.

    681:

    That's fine, think whatever you want. The article was in the multi-Pulitzer-Prize winning Philly Inquirer (not ever to be confused with the right-wing supermarket tabloid The Enquirer). Feel free to pay them to be able to access their morgue, or for the article itself, if you want.

    682:

    Sure are. Anyone want to visit with me, and I'll drive us up through southern PA, and over to OH, then on to Indiana.

    Ah, Indiana, where we drove through farms. On them, for about 10mi on I-67, was a windfarm that stretched on either side of the Interstate as far as the eye could see.

    And the farm fields stretched farther.

    683:

    When I need a new roof, I'm contemplating adding solar. My son, who did some construction when he was in his twenties, tells me it would be worth it.

    Note that my house inspector, before I bought the house, told me that the roof was then - in '11 - about 10 yrs old, so I'd need a new one in 10-15 years.

    684:

    For one, I expect they're really freakin' tired of the racist attacks by the right-wing press.

    For another, Charlie, you missed on link: UK accused of 'behaving like cowboys' over EU database copying https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/09/uk-accused-of-behaving-like-cowboys-over-eu-database-copying

    685:

    Nah, what's easier to store and transport is, I think, RFNA. Throw nydrazine in the other intake, and you're good for orbit....

    686:

    Do. Not. Get. Me. Started. on the utter STUPIDITY of JIT stocking....

    687:

    The article was in the multi-Pulitzer-Prize winning Philly Inquirer ...

    I don't doubt that the newspaper is incredibly competent. Unfortunately, that doesn't guarantee that they were correct. When it comes to defence matters, the Daily Telegraph (broadsheet UK paper, decent enough reputation) has printed some inaccurate tripe recently; and the less said about Max Hastings, Lewis Page, and Sharkey Ward the better...

    As I tried to explain, I find it hard to believe that you can manufacture quite such a complicated system as an effective anti-tank weapon, for $70. Just, nope. Bill of materials, maybe (at a push, for a really simple system), but not cost of manufacture.

    688:

    Here we convert them into residential accommodation and sell it for lots of money,

    So do we. As Charlie points out later the land is worth more than the building. By a wide margin Just like my current house.

    Solar panels on top? There may be planning arsery to deal with, but structurally you could certainly put them there if you wanted to, since they fix up the roof at the same time as they fix up the rest of the building.

    The problem with a lot of older 100 year or more range, warehouses is that the walls are brick courses. Maybe 5 wide (narrow wide) but no structural steel. Or a bit to hold up the center of the roof. Or maybe wooden beams that are now worth their weight in gold if removed.

    So adding weighty things on to the roof tends to mean structural issues that have to be addressed in a very big way and the puzzle boxes just keep opening up to another box.

    I spend a lot of my time in a rehabbed warehouse district. Working with an architectural firm in one. And surrounded by others. The economic for most profit way they are developed and keep their "character" is to prop up the walls, gut everything inside and build a new building behind the brick facade. And for that to make sense you need more than 2 or 3 stories so at the end of the day, in many cases, you get a warehouse wall or few wrapped around a modern building.

    Doing it and keeping the original buildings AND a sane budget requires creative effort. And most developers and owners don't think in terms of creative effort.

    Old warehouses can be interesting. Pull up the floor boards on the ground floor and discover the floor joists sitting on the dirt. But the spaces between them filled with coal clinkers. They keep the fungus and bugs away. Doubt it would be allowed today.

    689:

    @679: Let me preface my remarks by saying I used to do this sort of analysis professionally. You're getting it for free.

    Here's the Wiki article on Al Asad Airbase; note the geocoords of 33 degrees 48 minutes North, 42 degrees 26 minutes East. Also note the runway lengths: two parallel asphalt runways of 3,990 meters, plus a packed earth runway of over 3,000 meters, all oriented basically east/west. This is a BIG installation.

    Conducting a cursory review of the base on Google Earth Pro, it was easy to locate the area pictured on your link @605: look for the rectangular helicopter apron. Although the images on Google Earth are from 2004, the runways and other hard surfaces are easy to orient. Notice that the impacts, when viewed as a group, form an oblong oriented east-northeast/west-southwest. CSIS articles indicate the missiles were probably launched from near Kermanshah, Iraq, approximately 420 km east-northeast of Al Asad.

    Although the common accuracy term for ballistic missiles is Circular Error Probable, dispersions in ballistic missile flight form an ellipse oriented on the azimuth of travel: range errors are typically greater than azimuth errors for ballistic missiles. The image in the article shows five impacts enclosing a distance of approximately 1,500 meters along a rough azimuth of 253 degrees, consistent with a launch from Kermanshah. This is a very typical error distribution. So, out of a salvo of ten missiles, five managed to impact within 1,500 meters in the middle of a 4,000 by 4,000 meter target. That ain't exactly sharpshooting, even by Iranian ballistic missile standards. Also recall that only one of five of the missiles aimed at Irbil hit anywhere close to the target.

    Iraq and Iran launched hundreds of missiles at each other during the 1980s, ultimately doing very little damage to opposing forces. This attack was, well, slightly more than a minor annoyance, but NOT impressive.

    690:

    Well, Justin Trudeau just said that it was an Iranian missile that brought down Flight 752.

    I hope that this is wrong. Why would the Iranians do this? (Unless it was a massive non-state-sponsored cock-up on their part.)

    691:

    I believe the thought, which I find plausible, is that an Iranian air defense unit was on high alert because of the possibility of US air attack and someone made a mistake. Remember the Vincennes?

    692:

    Why would the Iranians do this? Unless it was a massive non-state-sponsored cock-up on their part. Charlie asked (well sort of) that we tamp down [speculation], so I've refrained. The investigators are investigating. If it was a shootdown, you're right (I think) about motive. If one thinks about this with limited publicly available information, the Iranians didn't have a motive (kill their own young people?), so it was either a random fuck up by an air defense system on hair trigger a few hours after Iran did a (essentially, given the warnings of various sorts) symbolic retaliatory missile attack in response to a high-level political assassination. Or it was deliberate, and by somebody else. Possibilities include (not an exhaustive list, and given information available publicly now) the SA-15, somehow fired, or (if deliberate) a shoulder launched missile. The 737 was in the climb path from that airport, so an id failure seems unlikely. If it was a shootdown, it was absolutely a (loosely) causal effect of that assassination, regardless of intent (if any) or motive or actor. (Blood on DJT's hands). The (limited information) scenarios come thick and mostly fairly vile with very little thought needed. (There are a few obtuse hints above in the thread.)

    693:

    Martin @ 687 The torygraph ahs gone very badly down the nick in the past year/18 months. Raving ultra-brexiteer trash, opinion masqueading as reporting. Which is a shame as it was a good "News" paper if one disregarded the opinions ... no longer possible.

    694:

    Trump joins Murdoch & Morrisson Slashing what littel environmental protection & oversight there was ...

    Incidentally - what's in it for Muirdoch? He will die soon, so why is he so keen on trashing the planet?

    695:

    what's in it for Muirdoch? He will die soon

    Grumpy old man syndrome? It's entirely likely IMO that he's just doing what he's always done, possibly in a more irritated and less competent way than ever. But it's more likely that what you're seeing is the result of careful recruitment and grooming over the last few decades so he has a staff of minions who know exactly what to do and have enough discretion to be able to do it in the current environment even if Our Rupert is increasingly living in the past.

    The minions will still be around, will still expect the large paycheques, and by the look of it those will keep coming. Since they clearly are willing to sell the service being provided, why would they stop now? It's not as though there's a rich job market for former right wing hacks who've decided that the climate catastrophe needs a sensible response (etc).

    696:

    It's not as though there's a rich job market for former right wing hacks who've decided that the climate catastrophe needs a sensible response (etc).

    Maybe there should be. As much as I'd like to see these people burn, a "come to the side of angels and you won't be hung" policy could have some practical benefits.

    697:

    I still do do this sort of thing professionally, and don't see anything worth arguing over in your analysis.

    698:

    I thought I remembered reading something about Chlorine trifluoride before - a quick Google (well, DuckDuckGo really) found Derek Lowe's THINGS I WON'T WORK WITH - https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2008/02/26/sand_wont_save_you_this_time

    That led me to Ignition!, which I haven't finished reading yet.

    699:

    Next - to stop someone buying it up & either killing it, because it threatens profits, or renting it out at a ridiculosly high price. It really has to go "open source" to save the Planet ... Thoughts?

    I'm pretty much in agreement there, but I don't have a solution. Maybe the patent holders will follow the Tesla path of allowing anyone to use their innovations free of charge?

    700:

    Al Jazeera reporting it was the Iranians that shot down the jetliner

    There is a video

    Don’t think this counts as speculation anymore

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/01/video-appears-show-moment-ukraine-plane-hit-iran-200109215242705.html

    701:

    Just from the priors it was probably a shootdown: (1) a couple of hours(?) after an attack by Iran that might have resulted in high-tech retaliation, thus forcing air defenses to high alert, (2) airliners falling flaming out of the sky during climb is not particularly common, if (known) shootdowns are excluded.

    Have to say I got [twitchy, nervous] when 123 oddly mentioned air traffic being redirected (before the crash[/shootdown?]).

    702:

    He will die soon, so why is he so keen on trashing the planet?

    "cult" non religious definition a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing

    Once you're in one, we shaved apes seem incredibly reluctant to leave. Especially when it means admitting being wrong about a strongly held belief for years.

    Which is why these folks are to be admired. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Former_members_of_the_Westboro_Baptist_Church

    But many will never be able to do that. Another thing us shaved apes have is long memories. Which raises the cost of exit even higher.

    703:

    Well, that's pretty strong evidence, more because of the video and time of day than anything else...

    704:

    There was an interesting tit-bit about IFF tags being changed just before the bird left the cage. It's being removed but it checked out.

    USA has the entire area painted from sky to ground, real ice clear.

    AND

    Let us posit that high tier geopolitical hard-ball stuff is played both symbolically and causally.

    Trump mentions "52" I R leader mentions "Remember that last plane"

    Serious chaos Djinn do their magic.

    Whispers from the Void in ears can make magic happen. Catamite / Scum, this body got riddled with tags overnight.

    Note: these aren't IL peeps - Bibi just did a prisoner x2 -- dead body exchange with SYR which is the old code for: "Ok, we're talking again, kinda". In terms of regional politics, it's an uptick and a sign some serious playas are moving and telling people to calm the fuck down.

    Points to Hafta who just had major gains

    ~

    As for what you get for this, well. Mostly dead kids / lost futures.

    Re-read the thread. You might get shook / woke.

    705:

    IFF id's changing isn't that unusual; I've got one from an inbound flight (arrived safely) that starts with ID code1, changes to code2, and then is turned off when the aircraft lands. I don't think you can draw any ill intent from a changing IFF code.

    706:

    Not really what we're saying. i.e. it's like that Uber autodrive incident - none of this stuff works like the narrative is pretending it is. It's not WW2.

    For the record, multiple flights were happily bouncing along hours previously when missiles were live and there wasn't a major panic / cancellation zone and tbh... if you read the data it's almost as if this wasn't happening. None of the majors did a pull alert / redirect, apart from one lone one.

    It's not WW2 - there's a reason ($$$$$$$$ ARMS DEALERS OWN THE PLANES YOU FLY UPON $$$$$$$$$$) why it's relatively rare for airliners to be in any danger even in "hot zones". There's also a reason why even crappy 1980's tech is happy to integrate with modern planes. Although, tbh, the stuff allegedly responsible is 90's.

    If you're not up on the theory that L'Orange didn't like Sul's memes online, which is why he chose that option, you're gonna hate the bit about him being cuckolded by Trudeau.

    ~

    Your answer lies in who wasn't / isn't WTF'd out about this.

    S was very quick (almost as quick as I R to paint as failure) to paint this as "error of self defense". They also published the first "leaked videos". And now, of course, there's rumors of spies in I being rounded up and so on and so forth (like anyone from the 20/21st century needs humint to ID from a major airport, but hey).

    For the record, look up "Canada Sa-- Ara--- Tower Memes" and the childish threats that were issued.

    Who knows. Certainly not the Glowing White Orbs (Or rather, some of the Orb holders really don't want any chance of any kind of inter-species love, know what we mean?).

    And today, in the adult world, some people lost ~$300 billion notional wealth. And the UN released a report about A RA MCO drones blaming... guess who? Guess who believes it? No-one: a lot of wasted social capital there, eh?

    Spooky kid games run by muppets.

    ~

    Of course, that's all predicated upon any of the actors involved being [redacted].

    Most of you aren't even human anymore.

    707:

    To be clearer: None of the majors actually know what happened.

    Now, that should scare you a little more than all the guff online, eh?

    708:

    Offler There's always FOOF, if you are feeling adventurous ..... ( I made Nitrogen Trichloride, once .... )

    Unholyguy Outside the Sunni/Shia religious war, I would trust Al-Jazeera. In this case? How trustworthy are they? IF it really was some out-of-controk "enthusiast" inside Iran ( As may be the case ) then theor leadership is in serious trouble. How to get out of that is going to be .... interesting.

    David L Except .... one reason theists describe me as "angry" (true) & "hating" (not) is my attitude to their blackmailing lies ....Because it took me a slow, gradual about 40-45 years (from birth) to realise that the whole fucking thing was a deliberate scam - and I really really don't like being lied to, made a fool of, & taken for a sucker. Which is why I have such contempt for the Brexiteers, of course, since they very nearly conned me...

    709:

    Some of the easiest things to grow in my experience include various forms of garlic - plant it, ignore it for about a year, then harvest. You have to like garlic of course - I use about a bulb every 5 days so can grow a lot without it being too much.

    Also kale seems nearly indestructible, if you find a type that grows well in your area. You can go out, pick off the outer leaves for dinner, and the plant continues to produce for months. Of course you must like kale, which I do.

    710:

    Incidentally - what's in it for Muirdoch?

    Remember it's the Murdoch family.

    As I understand things Rupert, the patriarch, has stepped back a long way in the past couple of years, but a lot of the day-to-day running of the company is now in the hands of his son Lachlan, who is even more rabidly right-wing than his dad.

    711:

    White rot. Get that, and you can rule out many of the alliums, including garlic, leeks and onions.

    712:

    It does seem to be a form of inertia. It was started as a propaganda rag by mining companies and it seems to have continued in that way.

    https://theconversation.com/the-secret-history-of-news-corp-a-media-empire-built-on-spreading-propaganda-116992

    713:

    "( I made Nitrogen Trichloride, once .... )"

    So did I... electrolysing bleach + ammonium chloride or something along those lines. Tiny drops of oily yellow stuff. GAH what a stink. Not that strong, and at first it isn't even too far from being pleasant. But it gets up your nose and you can still smell it for days afterwards and soon you really really wish you couldn't.

    714:

    And now for something lighter (and totally off-topic, unless you include Pigeon's GAH what a stink.

    Is there any truth to this comic's depiction of how coffee is made in Scotland?

    715:

    I choose to imagine that now that the comic has been drawn someone's going to try it. After all, without the batter, how could you fry it? grin

    716:

    I'm guessing no, because it'd mean more nights with meatloaf...

    717:

    I can imagine one of those things coming down somewhere and real pigeons trying to alternately peck it and shag it to death...

    718:

    Oh no, I'm fully aware it's not a militarily useful idea, but it's still fun to play with.

    Though as it happens round here we usually do only get them one at a time http://filehost.serveftp.net/pic/tank.jpg the problem is that while one tank is just one tank, the idea hangs around until they run out of things to do it to.

    719:

    JReynolds @ 690: Well, Justin Trudeau just said that it was an Iranian missile that brought down Flight 752.

    I hope that this is wrong. Why would the Iranians do this? (Unless it was a massive non-state-sponsored cock-up on their part.)

    It is beginning to look like it was a tragic mistake. The Drive has a section called The War Zone that has a good analysis of how it could happen.

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/31791/lets-talk-about-how-iran-could-have-shot-down-a-737-full-of-innocent-people

    720:

    Welp, the Aviation Herald has amended their report title to reflect a missile hit, so that's credible enough for me at this point. (AvHerald is not prone to sensationalist rumourmongoring.) Precisely how it happened and who was responsible is now the big question, but I expect it's also a horribly embarrassing question for the Iranian authorities: even in the unlikely event it wasn't fired by their own air defenses, it raises nasty questions (like, how did a foreign SAM launch happen so close to Tehran).

    721:

    JReynolds @ 714: And now for something lighter (and totally off-topic, unless you include Pigeon's GAH what a stink.

    Is there any truth to this comic's depiction of how coffee is made in Scotland?

    That's funny, but I don't think so. When I got to visit Scotland in 2004 all of the "Bed 'n Breakfast" inns I stayed at had U.S.A. restaurant style Bunn-O-Matic (I apologize for the "Big River" link) filter coffee makers.

    Which brings to mind a curious lack ...

    There is no good video on YouTube that shows how Bunn-O-Matic or Mr Coffee style fluted paper coffee filters are made. The closest I could come was an advertising video for Guangzhou Feng Da Machinery Co.,Ltd to sell a machine that folds coffee filters. But you can't quite see how it works.

    722:

    Thanks for the ongoing discussion of food security via indoor farming. Fascinating stuff! Since some context has been lost, let's recontextualize to focus the subsequent discussion:

    First, I raised this issue in the context of developing a Plan B to get us through widespread crop failures. To be clear, I don't anticipate complete, worldwide crop failures; if that happens, we're in a lifeboat/generation ship scenario and all bets are off. More likely, we'll see serious but not total regional crop failure, at least initially. We might survive that kind of scenario without major deaths if we gain experience now with partial crop failures of (say) 25% so we can cope with a future (say) >50% crop failure. That's why I'd like to see us start now.

    fwiw, Heteromeles and I have discussed this privately in another context, and we disagree on the nature of the problem and therefore on the solutions. I see the problem as unpredictable but bad weather happening at a really bad time (e.g., during pollination; we've had that occur a few times already in Canada). Without meaning to speak for him, my understanding is that he sees this more as a problem with relatively reliable but bad weather that could be survived by tough crops. Which one of us is right will depend on the nature of the bad weather and its timing. It's possible both problems may occur simultaneously in different regions.

    Second, power for the indoor farming isn't going to be an issue. If responding to crop failure becomes a survival priority, power will be reallocated from the existing grid. Homeowners and fast food restaurants may have to do without power to keep the crops growing. In a famine situation, governments will make that happen.

    Third, indoor agriculture is a proven concept for things like tomatoes, strawberries, and bell peppers. The trick will be to re-prove this (i.e., tailor the techniques) to cope with the different needs of each crop. That won't be rocket science or astrophysics, but will be (say) automotive engineering: tricky but manageable, particularly if this becomes a Manhattan project thing to keep most of a population alive.

    Fourth, I deliberately specified "indoor gardening" rather than something more specific such as "greenhouses" because that can be a glasshouse or a warehouse or something different, whichever tech works best for a given context. The problem with glasshouses is, amusingly enough, the "greenhouse effect". They warm up a ton and you have to work hard to shed that trapped heat. You'll still have problems with shedding excess heat in a "factory" with opaque wood or cement ceilings and walls, but it will be less of an issue because you'll have less incident radiation absorbed, reradiated, and trapped.

    Fifth, the gardening can be hydroponic, aeroponic, or in soil, depending on what works best. Pest control (insects and disease) is not trivial, but it's increasingly manageable. Japan has a ton of experience with this, and other countries are getting better. There are interesting solutions that prevent root diseases using communities of organisms pulled from compost, thereby eliminating the need for heavy fungicide use.

    So in summary: My proposition is that we need to start looking at prototype-scale indoor farming solutions now, so that we have a proven technology we can scale up as crop failures become more frequent and severe.

    723:

    Pigeon Take an old-fashioned Gas Jar, full of freshly-generated Chlorine & then add "880" Ammonia, dropwise. The Ammonia solution ignites a little on the way down ... as you say a greenish-yellow oil liquid ... until you've go a bout 3-4 mm in the bottom. At which point, it IGNITES - needle-shaped flame-discharge about twice the height of the jar. Fun for various values of

    Charlie @ 720 Likely it was fired-up underage ( i.e. under 25 ) wanker full of religious bullshit [ Functionally identical to US in other words ] who got itchy fingers. If/when the Iranian authorities catch up with him, his end is not going to be pleasant.

    Geoff Hart The actual probnlem is going to be getting so-called "governments" ( US & AUS are the evil poster-boys here ] ... To ACTUALLY ADMIT THERE IS A PROBLEM The moment you admit that there is any sort of problem at all, then you must do something about it. Which is one reason the aresholes are in the middle of a well-known Ehyptian river of course - they can probably, see that double proble - "If we admit there's a problem, then we have to ... so let's carry on denying the existence of any problem.

    724:

    Charlie Stross @ 720: Welp, the Aviation Herald has amended their report title to reflect a missile hit, so that's credible enough for me at this point. (AvHerald is not prone to sensationalist rumourmongoring.) Precisely how it happened and who was responsible is now the big question, but I expect it's also a horribly embarrassing question for the Iranian authorities: even in the unlikely event it wasn't fired by their own air defenses, it raises nasty questions (like, how did a foreign SAM launch happen so close to Tehran).

    I just don't see how it could be anyone but Iran. The missile they're identifying is an Iranian missile (although I believe based on a Russian design). The place it was fired from appears to be an Iranian Air Defense Site. Every bit of the evidence I'm aware of so far points to it being a tragic mistake.

    Some of the latest news reports I've seen say Iran has formally invited the NTSB to send a representative. Probably because ICAO protocols for accident investigations suggest having a representative from the aircraft manufacturer's home nation.

    725:

    I'm going to quibble - because apparently that's mostly what I'm here to do these days - with this:

    Homeowners and fast food restaurants may have to do without power to keep the crops growing. In a famine situation, governments will make that happen.
    Historically, if the government is mismanaging to the point of food shortages (remember, in modern history famine is a political failure, not agricultural) it rapidly gains more immediate worries than next year's harvest: see the Hungry 40's and 1848 for examples.

    Hell, we have a well-known example of a government dis-incentivising the planting of next year's crop in famine conditions: Russell's relief works took labourers out of the fields during the Famine.

    726:

    What terrifies me is not governments, but some 23 yr old MBA in one of the huge agribusiness companies deciding, and convincing management, that it would raise ROI for the next s quarters to not plant one year... and 10% of the US cropland isn't planted, and then, of course, there's famine.

    727:

    I expect it's also a horribly embarrassing question for the Iranian authorities<\i>

    Not least because if it was an Iranian air defense unit that shot down the 737 with a missile because of operator error, it would bear much resemblance to the USS Vincennes/Iran Air 655 tragedy. Which tragedy is the basis for a legitimate and much exploited grievance Iran has against the US.

    For the Iranian government to admit that, "Well, we just did one of those too. Accidents happen." would be difficult.

    728:

    "Second, power for the indoor farming isn't going to be an issue. If responding to crop failure becomes a survival priority, power will be reallocated from the existing grid."

    The grid only transports power. Something still has to generate it.

    729:

    You are braver than me :) My experiment was MUCH smaller, a few ml of the starting solution, in a polythene bag so that unlike glass the shards would cease to be nasty once they had come to rest. Only there weren't any, as the quantity formed was too small and too wet to perform.

    730:

    and 10% of the US cropland isn't planted, and then, of course, there's famine.

    Depends on which crop and where it is headed. In the US 10% can be made up by not exporting. Easily. Now if the destination of the exports is on the edge THEY might suffer famine.

    But there's lots of food in the world. But it is very unevenly distributed.

    Of course some people might get upset about their morning bagel doubling in price but be fine with brussel spouts missing for a while.

    731:

    One idea I've toyed with is the notion of humans adopting something like what leafcutter ants do, which is to process a variety of vegetation (apparently sucking the juices while chewing, but still), then inoculating the resulting compost with their favorite symbiotic fungus, and getting the rest of the food they need from the fungus.

    If you've ever seen how mushrooms are grown (in massive, greenhouse-like structures, on beds of autoclaved horse manure, often from a nearby race course), you'll see where this is going.

    In the future, perhaps some humans will survive by genetically engineering a fungus, which fairly rapidly produces mushrooms on processed vegetable matter. Perhaps the processed matter is herbivore dung*, perhaps it just has to be chopped up and sterilized, but all that's required is some source of plant material that the fungi can convert into a more-or-less complete human diet.

    We'll call it The Culture. Vast, mushroom growing underground farms devoted to The Culture will help people survive, even when the only plants available are pigweed, kudzu, and tumbleweeds. Sterile procedure will be the norm, as will shaving off all exposed body hairs and keeping out intruders. The hair thing is why hairy men like myself have trouble creating pure fungal cultures. Our hairy arms are really good spore traps, and there are a lot of spores in the air. Less hairy people (women especially) do a much better job.

    *It's actually easier to envision feeding plants to animals, then shoveling poo into the autoclave, there to grow mushrooms, then taking the mushroom compost out to fertilize the fields that grow the plants to feed the animals. It's not a closed cycle, but it's a lot simpler than massive pink houses, providing the climate cooperates to some minimal degree.

    732:

    basically bioreactors that produce all sorts of useful molecules, including a flour that apparently can work well for bread:

    Cool! Thanks for the link.

    The company says they're using "microbes" but spin it as if it's a brewery, ie yeast. Presumably this is because beer has familiarity so the PR is easier.

    The idea of driving the bioreactors with electricity, and training organisms to use hydrogen+CO2 instead of eg sugars, has been done before. I seem to have lost my notes on that, but it can be done, and has nice advantages. For one thing, any spillage isn't going to take up residence in nearby creeks and cause lawsuits. For another, you don't need sunlight. A decade ago, there were biofuel-farming startups that were going to grow trained algae in shallow ponds in the desert. (Sapphire and Joule are now dead, killed by fracking's price.) But electrically driven bioreactors can be any shape, and can be stacked vertically in a low-tech warehouse.

    Lots of people have tried to get bioreactors generating fuels, or generating refinery feedstock, but we seem to have surplus of proposals and a shortage of operating companies. If these guys can make money, it will be an important moment.

    I'd love to see some hard numbers. Or even better, a competitor.

    733:

    Something's a bit weird here. There are certainly soil bacteria that metabolize hydrogen. However, they're not "ten times more efficient" than photosynthesizers, they're actually a bit less energetic, which is why you don't see any multicellular hydrogen breathers out there.

    Presumably there's something else going on inside the bioreactor, but until I saw production numbers, I'd be a wee bit skeptical of someone claiming that growing anaerobic bacteria in bulk will save humanity. It would be incredibly cool if they could, it's just weird from what little I know about bacterial biochemistry. And hopefully I'm wrong in my skepticism.

    734:

    David L NOTHING at all wrong with Brusseles Sprouts ... provided you never, ever show them liquid water in the cooking.

    Take an appropriate quantity of FRESH PICKED sprouts. Trim off the couple of millimetres at the break & maybe an outer leaf, slice thinly - between 2 & 4mm approx - heat a woklet with a little oil in the bottom, chop a Garlic clove in, maybe a small Onion or Shallott - followed by the sprouts. Additional spices optional - I often use a small quantity of a chili-containing mix. Stir, to avoid scorching ... after 2-5 minutes, add a capful ( as in the cap off the bottle ) of vermouth, stir & put lid on woklet. Another 2 minutes & serve. Delicious.

    735:

    NOTHING at all wrong with Brusseles Sprouts

    Says you. They now know that non trivial portions of the populations have DNA that codes for a protein found in some green veggies that makes them taste terrible to that population. I'm one of them.

    So for some of us a chunk of what everything else thinks of as edible greens taste terrible.

    736:

    Sorry you're a super-taster.

    Anyway, you can also throw Brussel Sprouts in the oven at 400oF for thirty minutes. Oil them first. What Greg and I are doing is both cooking and carmelizing the little buggers, so that they get soft and sweet. Every once in awhile someone tries to turn raw Brussels sprouts into slaw, and that it is an abomination unto Gaia, so far as I'm concerned.

    737:

    Sorry, but that comment sounds snide. You either forget, or didn't notice, a few years back, when too much of the US corn (maize) crop was used for ethanol, and there were riots in Mexico, Central, and South America, because there was a shortage of corn for tortillas.

    738:

    I note that alopecia is a side-effect of Dermatopathia pigmentosa reticularis, which is an autosomal dominant genetic condition. This suggests that generically engineering humans to be completely bald might be possible (albeit possibly with other effects, e.g. loss of fingerprints and brittle nails).

    That'd help your Moorlock mushroom farmers, wouldn't it?

    739:

    NOTHING at all wrong with Brusseles Sprouts

    Yes there is: they're cultivars of the satanic demon vegetable from hell, Brassica oleracea. (As is mustard, cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, and a bunch of other vomit-inducing inedible so-called "foods".)

    Seriously, the brassicae are on my Room 101 List, along with wasps and racism. I have a little list, of things that I shan't miss ...

    740:

    Yeah, morlocks.

    Actually, my first thought with the mushroom cultivators was a "reverse Gygax," of light-skinned Drow living perhaps underground but cutting masses of vegetation on the surface. The women would be in charge because they're the people who keep the place going. If they want their menfolk clean, they'd better be clean or else. Given the way the Anglophone world works, I'd substitute worship of a spider demon with an assiduous devotion to the notions and works of Paul Stamets. That would be sufficiently creepy for most people, and really cool for the rest. Evil would not be required. Necessarily.

    741:

    That reminds me; I must offer Feorag my recipe for broccolia and cauliflower curry (this is a real thing, based on a Madhur Jaffrey recipe).

    742:

    That'd help your Moorlock mushroom farmers, wouldn't it?

    What they really need is their own incarnation of the Eternal Champion.

    743:

    That's all right, then - brassicas are about the only class of vegetables I do consider palatable (traditionally cooked by boiling the living shit out of them is fine, though Greg's idea sounds delicious), so when the shit hits the fan you can have all my ration of runner beans and tomatoes and things and I'll have your ration of brassicas.

    (I'll have your wasps too, if you don't want them.)

    744:

    Sorry, but that comment sounds snide. ... and there were riots in Mexico, Central, and South America, because there was a shortage of corn for tortillas.

    You started off with famine. That was no where near famine.

    745:

    Actually, mustard is probably one of several other Brassica species. I disagree with Greg, in that I am happy with LIGHTLY boiled brussel sprouts - but the obscenities of my youth are best transferred straight onto the compost heap, preferably before stinking up the kitchen. And you really DON'T want to be inflicted with marrowfat kale, raw, cooked or fermented :-(

    747:

    Only 4 months in a pressure cooker, rather than the usual 6? ;-)

    748:

    Have to ask now, any emotional reaction (that we should know about) to the works of Robert Rankin, and some of his characters? e.g. Barry the Time Sprout "...God has run out of Guardian Angels due to a supply shortage, forcing God to hand out Guardian Vegetables..."

    Re wasps, been toying with a creepy analogy; the Trump Family as obligate social parasites, parasitizing the Republican Party: Polistes sulcifer. Polistes sulcifer is a species of paper wasp in the genus Polistes that is found in Italy and Croatia. It is one of only three known Polistes obligate social parasites, sometimes referred to as “cuckoo paper wasps”, and its host is the congeneric species Polistes dominula. As an obligate social parasite, this species has lost the ability to build nests, and relies on the host workers to raise its brood. P. sulcifer females use brute force, followed by chemical mimicry in order to successfully usurp a host nest and take over as the queen.

    749:

    Yes there is: they're cultivars of the satanic demon vegetable from hell, Brassica oleracea. (As is mustard, cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower,<\i>

    Oh, dear, I fear that you have anathematized a large number of our favorite foods. Lightly zapped in the microwave and dressed with olive oil and a sprinkle of salt, or roasted with a brushing of oil and salt, they're quite delicious. Also Brussels sprouts.

    750:

    Re-read the thread. You might get shook / woke. Did, and yes. (Shook especially.)

    There was an interesting tit-bit about IFF tags being changed just before the bird left the cage. I had not seriously considered IFF fuckups/fuckery. That (the latter) is a nasty class of opportunistic attack. (The shootdown occurred during climb in a normal climb path for airliners from that airport.) (Still reading about IFF and integration with air defenses, and Manpads.)

    751:

    Every once in awhile someone tries to turn raw Brussels sprouts into slaw, and that it is an abomination unto Gaia, <\i>

    No, you can make that work by shaving them very thin and then cheating on the "raw" part by tossing them with some hot oil.

    752:

    Reminds me of my quick-results version: take a load of any old plant stuff, chop it up, and stew it with caustic soda to hydrolyse the cellulose into simple sugars. Kind of like a chemical extension of the "fire as external digestion" idea. The lack of a gene for cellulase in higher animals has always seemed to me to be a case of evolution dropping a bollock.

    (I've heard a tale of someone in China having the same idea and getting done for selling "cookies" made from cardboard and caustic soda. Don't know how true it is.)

    753:

    Cooked Brussels sprouts are just fine. I've actually had raw, thin-shaved Brussel sprouts, and I am not a fan. The idiot chef who made them hadn't got your note about frying the buggers before serving.

    Now, if you want the cult of cruciferae, it's hard to beat the Korean sacrament (not condiment) kimchi in terms of its cultural significance.

    754:

    Charlie AH the usual problem(s) ... You've always been fed them when they are some combination of: NOT fresh ( And, when they get old the Sulphur compounds emitted get venomous ) BOILED - shudder - just DON'T, OK? Steam or fry them & divide & add garlic. Either undercooked, in which case they will stay lumpy after you'v eaten'em - or overcooked - which produces the "boiled" or "stale" effects mentioned aboove & are mushy, eeeuuuwwww. I really like "Calabrese" - a variety of broccoli/cauliflower that are simply delicious - IF fresh & properly cooked. But, I suspect that only eating my own home-grown ones is what does this.

    paws has the right of this, incidentally. ( Though not about boiling Brassicas ) Not to be confused with curried Jerusalem Artichokes with onions & extra garlic - single-stage-to-orbit if you do that one wrong.

    Oh there is also the other Brassica I love: "Green in Snow Mustard Leaf" - a Japanese/Chinese cultivar, that, as the name implies grows best in winter. I wrote a short piece for my fellow-allotmenteers on this one: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Green-in-Snow Mustard Leaf Brassica juncea multiceps

    This is the first of a set ( I hope ) of plants that people on allotment ought to grow, IMHO.

    This one is really easy – scatter the seeds & up it comes! Sow in early autumn, preferably in a permanent position, even though the plant is an annual, as it should re-seed itself. As the name implies, it is 100% frost-hardy & will run to flower & then seed during May & June. It is a true Mustard, so you should be able to use the seeds as such as a spice in cooking, or grind them ….. But the main use is the leaves, here is a specimen in normal growth. [ picture ] Those leaves are very crunchy & have a distinct peppery “hot” taste – they CAN be eaten raw, but they are much better-off wilted in cooking or finely chopped & put into mixes & stir-fries. One of my favourite methods is to take 2-5 leaves of it, chop them up & stir into mashed potatoes, along with the butter, cream & pepper.

    When they do bolt to flower & set seed, they can get quite large, like this: [ picture ]

    Don’t let that put you off! The bees & hoverflies will love it … and you can collect the seeds later, for sowing in August/September & for spices & even for making mustard!

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ If I could work out how to GET INTO "imgur" - I would have included a pic as well ....

    755:

    You've still got that filehost.serveftp.net account I set up for you a while ago because you couldn't find an existing file host that wasn't shit.

    756:

    For the haters, cauliflower might be acceptable. Roasted or stir fried, it almost works as a meat substitute. It doesn't have most of the cruciferous special stuff, just texture.

    757:

    Sorry guys. It no longer matters what some foods actually taste like. What matters is my brain see it and KNOWS how it will taste and refuses to let it pass my teeth.

    759:

    It no longer matters what some foods actually taste like

    It took me about 30 years to get over my mother (who can't taste bitter much at all) forcing me to eat several meals of "yummy pumpkin soup" that was at the bitter end of slightly off bitter pumpkin. At least I stopped vomiting when I tasted it by the time I was ~20.

    But a certain amount of careful experimentation has shown that I can eat pumpkin as well as most brassica, just carefully. The white heart of cabbage makes a delicious snack when raw, although why people insist on putting oil or rotten milk onto perfectly good vegetables I'm not sure. Not enough calories in the meal otherwise?

    Speaking of which, most "fermented" food is very bitter to me. Especially the rotten milk ones. I'm happy to believe that eating yogurt would help my digestive system, if I could keep it down. But I tried and the answer is no. taste system says "rotten. Bad. Danger, danger, repel intruders".

    760:

    I'm happy to believe that eating yogurt would help my digestive system, if I could keep it down. But I tried and the answer is no.

    My mother (long history of health food nut here) made her own yogurt and tried to feed it to us as kids. Didn't take with any of us. Raw yogurt, not the candy stuff you get at those cute colorful shops these days or in small sealed cups at the market. Made me want to hurl.

    Even today, 55+ years later, I just can't handle the THOUGHT of it. If you give me frozen yogurt, I'm fine as long as I think it is ice cream. Tell me it's yogurt and I'll start to gag.

    761:

    Oh well. I've had my yogurt culture going for years. For me, it's just another ingredient in stuff, taking the place of buttermilk or put in smoothies.

    Then again, I have trouble with too much meat or fat. Guess we're all different.

    762:

    For me, cauliflower is the worst of them -- just the smell alone is nauseating. For some reason the aroma reminds me of diarrhoea. (Probably childhood conditioning, but you are not going to get me eating that stuff.)

    763:

    Pigeon Oops - thanks ... Now ... all I have to do is find it. I will scroll down back thorough my emails - it'll be in there somewhere!

    Food aversions [ NOT allergies ] Often to do with a combination of: Crap vrieties, grown for commecial use - i.e. ease of harvesting & bugger the taste. NOT really fresh - the problem with almost all shop-bought vegetables. Cooked really badly - all too common in Britain, because of 1940-60's cooking shudder.

    I used to loathe leeks - slimy, tasteless - reminded me of trying to swallow back vomit. Now - I grow them myself & eat them FRESH - and cooked quickly & not stewed & never boiled. The common dislike of brassicas comes from these factors - & I'm sorry to say probably all three ot hose factors.

    764:

    Announce that you don't like something and the recipes/serving suggestions appear as if by magic. One of the immutable laws of the internet.

    765:

    Right now, there's no reason to suppose it was an 'accident' and every reason to suppose it was a genuine accident.

    DJT orders the murder of a high-ranking government official (gets it, plus nine other corpses) and promises that any retaliation by Iran means war. After all, it's OK for the USA to kill whomever it pleases, but not OK for those struck to strike back.

    Iran retaliates.

    My analysis [1]:

    A lot of Iranian officers and decision-makers must be very nervous. Will the USA order an all-out attack?

    Not everybody is cast in the mold of Stanislav Petrov. Jumping at shadows, an officer makes a bad call and shoots down an airliner.

    This shit wouldn't have happened if DJT hadn't authorized the drone strike. An Iranian pulled the trigger, but as an indirect response to DJT's crime.

    ~

    [1] My analysis is based only on my own preconceptions and prejudices - so it's about as reliable as pro-war pundits in the media, IMO.

    766:

    It's the same if you say you can't get Linux to work for you. "Have you tried another distro?"

    767:

    JReynolds Tu quoque or something like that.

    768:

    So, you're careful about what you order at the local curry house?

    I rather like Broccoli, but I agree with you about cauliflower - drench it in cheese sauce, put it in a decent curry, or away with you!

    My beloved pan-fries the Brussel sprouts with bacon or pancetta; it's rather delicious, even the (teenage) boys enjoy it. Meanwhile I'm lightly scarred from a "prepare Brussel sprouts for a hundred people" experience as a student (I spent a day or four pan-diving and doing food prep, including the upcoming Christmas Dinner, in the kitchens at Redford Barracks - I was young and desperate for cash, please don't judge me)...

    769:

    This shit wouldn't have happened if DJT hadn't authorized the drone strike. An Iranian pulled the trigger, but as an indirect response to DJT's crime.

    Likewise, the VINCENNES wouldn't have been in-theatre and acting like an incompetent bunch of trigger-happy morons, if the Iranians hadn't taken up mine warfare, and Iranian IRGC gunboats hadn't been driving around the Gulf shooting at people. Be careful with that analogy.

    There are a lot of funerals happening this week. And somewhere, there's some poor sods who gave the order to fire, and killed all those people. They're unlikely to be a psychopath, may well have been as aggressive as William Rogers, but more probably were overloaded by the situation. The passengers and crew won't be the only casualties.

    If I was being optimistic, I might hope that some calm might have come from the tragedy of it all. If pessimistic, that Trump will play a narrative that it's all because he's a glorious leader (PS don't mention the Impeachment, or his failure to get the rape allegations dismissed in court)

    770:

    cauliflower - put it in a decent curry, Thank you sir, but Madhur deserves the credit for that one. I just follow the recipe.

    771:

    Be careful with that analogy. Yes, but here is causality here, in that the shootdown would not have happened absent the high level political assassination. Anyway, just saw this, not bad piece, a couple of days ago, prior to Iran's announcement of fault:
    Let's Talk About How Iran Could Have Shot Down A 737 Full Of Innocent People - A lot had to of gone wrong to get us to this point and not just with a surface to air missile battery. (Tyler Rogoway, January 9, 2020) It covers a lot of possibilities. It reminds us that a SA-15 (Tor unit) operator would have been expecting a HARM, or stealthed death from above (F-35). Their radar, blazing like a bright flashlight in a dark room, was literally telling hostile forces where their location is, what they are, and that they need to be destroyed. Under those circumstances, death would likely come by a Mach 2 flying AGM-88 High-Speed Anti-Radiation Missile (HARM) launched off an F-16CJ or more likely via a slower, but highly accurate GBU-39 Small Diameter Bomb launched from the weapons bay of a stealthy F-35.

    and that brinksmanship has (probabilistic) costs: If indeed Iran shot the plane down as it is increasingly believed, they are directly responsible for such a terrible miscalculation, but it didn't happen on some random Tuesday morning. It happened during the highest point of tension between the two countries in decades. It may be quite inconvenient for some people to come to terms with the fact that this occurred, at least indirectly, because the U.S. and Iran cannot figure out a way forward that doesn't include being on the brink of war with one another periodically. The fact is that when the geopolitical situation is allowed to degrade to such a perilous point, the chances that major mistakes may occur skyrockets. And those mistakes can have huge impacts on countries and people who are not even involved with the ongoing crisis. The whole thing should serve as a powerful warning of the cost brinksmanship and how even limited conflict can spill into unintended areas, resulting in highly unfortunate consequences.

    (The level of causality denial that so many Trump defenders are displaying is stark, but sadly it is an old problem.)

    772:

    A friend of mine is a lot like this - just that particular family of veg.

    In restaurants, she gets to simply shove the stuff direct onto my plate (I adore it). The only exception to her brassica hate is red cabbage - either sliced thinly raw or in borscht.

    She'd drawn a possible link with her experience of Hashimoto's thyroiditis, as her thyroid packed it in quite early in her adulthood (in a rather woman-unfriendly culture: took a psychiatrist, who noticed she was wearing a heavy coat on a warm spring day, to suggest what was really wrong) - but her dislike of brassicas really set in during the pre-symptom period, and has been an un-budge-able feature since.

    773:

    Something's a bit weird here. There are certainly soil bacteria that metabolize hydrogen. However, they're not "ten times more efficient" than photosynthesizers, they're actually a bit less energetic, which is why you don't see any multicellular hydrogen breathers out there.

    You're right, the solarfoods.fi web site is vague and arm-waving about various crucial details. I'm fairly sure they're comparing their setup to a conventional farm, rather than to some hypothetical bioreactor that uses photosynthesis. However, they don't even say what metric is being compared. Water use? Energy ? Area ? Hopefully this is a PR fog, not a covering-up-sins fog.

    774:

    My proposition is that we need to start looking at prototype-scale indoor farming solutions now, so that we have a proven technology we can scale up as crop failures become more frequent and severe.

    Agreed. It's heartwarming to see pictures like this warehouse farm: it means we've started.

    There are many kinds of farming disaster - unexpected frosts, parasites overwintering, flooded harvests, smoky overcasts. We will experience oddities, like finding that all of our (say) pecans come from one region, and that that region just had a Bad Year. So from the consumer viewpoint, there will be products that are suddenly scarce for a while (or for a long while: it takes years to grow a new orchard).

    These availability fluctuations will be less tolerable when the consumer sees several at the same time. But every disaster is also an opportunity for an alternative product or alternative farming method to get the spotlight. From the viewpoint of the factory farmer, these events create (ha ha) low hanging fruit, where a previously too-expensive product can now sell well. This is the way we will scale up.

    775:

    The thing I can’t figure out about the airliner shoot down is why the Iranians didn’t just ground civilian airliners until things cooled down

    Seems an easy thing to do

    776:

    Why, by Klono's curving carballoy claws, did they think anyone not Iranian would be firing a missile, any missile, from an Iranian civil airfield?

    777:

    why the Iranians didn’t just ground civilian airliners until things cooled down<\i>

    It may be that Iran doesn't have its command and control system totally wired together. In that, they're not unique, and a matter to think upon.

    778:

    The thing I can’t figure out about the airliner shoot down is why the Iranians didn’t just ground civilian airliners until things cooled down That does seem to a fuck-up on their part. Apparently there was argument about it in the Iranian government, with the part that launched the symbolic response attack recommending shutdown of civil aviation, and some other group saying no. Too much trust in IFF, perhaps? I hope the Iranians are forthcoming about their investigation. This medium piece interesting, couched as a story but with tech details and maps and timings and etc. Tor, Iran, and Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752 (ckfinite, Jan 10) (It doesn't speculate on IFF though.)

    779:

    I should point out that there are a number of efforts to try to deal with predictable climate change, including both indoor farming and developing more tolerant varieties of crops.

    On a bigger picture, we've got a number of factors that make adaptation harder than it needs to be.

    The most fundamental is that, historically and probably now, there's a tradeoff between resilience and productivity. Subsistence farmers typically valued productivity only to the point where they got enough food for the year, then valued resilience after that. The reason is that crop failures are normal in the long term, so if you specialize in one highly productive crop, you'll do well most years and occasionally starve. You can't occasionally starve more than once, so it's better to trade off some of that productivity to reduce the risk of starving as close to zero as you can get it.

    Nowadays, we have a few farmers producing for all of us, so they've got to be productive. We try to get around the resilience problem with things like crop insurance (pay them so they can buy food if it's available) and long-distance shipping (so that a crop failure in one region is offset by a good crop somewhere else). These aren't bad solutions, so long as we've got the resources to use them. Unfortunately with climate change, we'll either lose them (and civilization), or we'll have to switch at a minimum to carbon-free long distance shipping--and we haven't done that yet. So that's one thing we desperately need: cost-effective, carbon-free, fast-enough long distance shipping. And yes, they're working on it, but it's not ready for prime time.

    Another problem is governance (this is James Scott's argument in Seeing Like a State). Basically governments like things as simple as possible so that they can understand them. The reason is that, no matter how good the government is, they're a limited number of people with a limited number of resources, so if things are too complicated, they lose control. As an example, the US government at the best of times is pretty clunky. With the current regime deliberately trashing systems, it's getting dysfunctional to the point where they could get us into a nuclear war for lack of competent diplomats.

    Anyway, the ideal for agriculture, per ecologists and permaculturists (e.g. people who generally don't depend on ag for their livelihood) is a lot of hyper-adapted diverse small farms to maximize adaptation to local climates. This system would be a nightmare to regulate on a large scale. It would also be a logistical nightmare for a system that must feed huge numbers of people reliably. As a consumer, do you want to normally have to switch between bread, pasta, potatoes, sweet potatoes, rutabagas, turnips, and tortillas for your carbs? Probably not, but that might be more environmentally sustainable than reliably getting your favorite loaf of bread every week or so.

    Long story short, the limited resources of the regulators, coupled with the needs of supply chains, tend to favor having fewer, bigger farmers producing fewer, more predictable, crops. The regulators can form relationships with them, the supply chains can make orders, deal with insurance, and so forth, and it appears to work. Unfortunately, it's ecologically inefficient, and again, it's optimized more for simple productivity than complex resilience. Worse, making this more resilient requires a bigger, smarter, faster government, which we may not want or want to pay for.

    A related problem is that many big farms aren't owned by people, they're company-owned with hired managers and staff. This creates all sorts of disincentives to invest in the land. The companies (which may be insurance firms, investors, pension managers, or the super-rich) want a reliable return on their investment, whatever it takes. This isn't a recipe for good land management.

    And there are many other issues, like water politics, fertilizer politics, and so forth.

    The tl;dr version is that yes there are people working on these problems, but the problems are many, they are coupled to each other, and all too often, the people in the critical decision-making roles not only don't want to deal, they don't know how to deal.

    780:

    Farms are big, y'all.

    Yes.

    I have happy memories of growing up in a lovely farming area, les cantons de l'est. The farms were 160 acres, or 640. And as far as the eye could see, what they grew was feed for dairy cattle. I haven't tried the plant-based "oat milk": maybe I'll hate it. But I gather it takes humongously less land to produce than cow milk. Aerofarms.com report that their warehouse farm is 390 times more land efficient than growing the exact same greens in a field. If we wind up eating a wheat substitute that comes out of bioreactors, I do not expect the bioreactors to need a warehouse the size of Alberta.

    In my long engineering career, I did a bunch of scaling. Pro tip: do not give the job to a pessimist. They give up too easily.

    Let me describe three kinds of organizational scaling. The first kind is done with some finite resources, that aren't replenished by even a successful result. Navies, for instance, or projects to save the Great Barrier Reef. Type 1 is hard to scale.

    The second kind has an organization that makes a profit, and can reinvest the profit. However, their business plan has a built in limit. Perhaps they make vanadium flow batteries, and market saturation would mean using more than 100% of the world's vanadium. Or maybe their profit is so paltry, they can't build warehouses, and have to scrounge for existing ones. Or maybe their market is close to saturation.

    The third kind makes a profit, and has no specific thing in the business plan that prevents them from growing as market opportunities dictate. I argue that factory farming falls in this category, and bioreactor technology offers a real hope of expanding the market opportunities manyfold.

    No, I'm not envisioning Bill Gates waving his big checkbook, and suddenly the new world order is built. I envision the new ways of doing things going after low hanging fruit, and the rocky road ahead of us creating a lot more low hanging fruit.

    781:

    Martin @ 769 Quote from that piece you linked to: Carroll added: “No one, not even the president, is above the law.” Except, it seems that US presidents cannot be charged with any crime, nor tried in any court, unlike this country. What's going on here ...& how ..? ( We all know "why" )

    Heteromeles Which do "you" ( the hedge-fund/corporations owning the farms ) want? You can have a "good return" but you will probably satrve, or you can have a modest return, ( & some few years a loss ) & live ....

    782:

    Re. cruciferae and whether they're palatable: Different 'chokes for different folks. Or as we say in Québec, à chacun son goût.

    Pigeon noted: "The grid only transports power. Something still has to generate it."

    I was perhaps unclear, but was assuming that the kind of seriously bad weather I'm predicting wouldn't affect the overall power-generation capacity, let alone the grid, and would instead leave us with a zero-sum game: a fixed amount of power to be allocated among the list of uses. I'd then assume, for example, that fast food restos would be closed down to power the more important (for survival) food factories. Needless to say, severe winds could take out wind power systems, greatly increased cloud cover could greatly reduce the yield from solar, and long-term drought could reduce hydroelectric output as reservoirs shrink. We're also about to have an ice storm here in Montreal that could, if conditions conspire against us, be as bad as the 1998 disaster that took down most of Québec's electrical grid for periods ranging from a week to more than a month in some areas. (Shouldn't be that bad, but could be if we collectively roll a natural 1 on d20.)

    But to simplify the discussion rather than trying to simultaneously account for all of these possibilities, let's just assume the available power generation doesn't change much and the core problem is how to feed everyone. The problem then becomes a simpler question of how to allocate the available energy to different forms of agriculture.

    Heteromeles notes: "One idea I've toyed with is the notion of humans adopting something like what leafcutter ants do..."

    I have two words for you: "Soylent Green". Or "Make Room! Make Room!" if you're a purist and old enough to remember that reference. Joking aside, synthetic vat-grown food using fungi to break down plant matter is one reasonable solution. Not palatable to many, perhaps, but better than starvation. (Dystopian story concept: no plants left, so everyone has to run their collection of paperbacks through a wood chipper to feed the fungi.)

    H: "We'll call it The Culture."

    I think that's the funniest thing I've heard in months. Take a bow! Ian Banks lies a'grinning in the grave (but his soul goes marching on).

    783:

    Bing! Bing! Bing! Bing!

    Guess we're all different.

    Exactly. You said the secret phrase.[1]

    I wish more folks would appreciate this.

    [1] An allusion to a Groucho Marx TV show from the 50s

    784:

    Mildly terrifying... commonly used drugs have definite psychological effects, and not always beneficial ones.

    https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200108-the-medications-that-change-who-we-are

    785:

    But what about the golden rule? No, the other one "treat others as you would like to be treated"... too bad for all the coeliacs made to eat cake, or communion wafers.

    It would be great if all these technofoodistas could come up with a biscuit that tastes like BBQ pork. Then we could have realistic communion.

    786:

    It may be that Iran doesn't have its command and control system totally wired together.

    The Iran Revolutionary Guard, or whatever its official name it, operates an almost parallel government system. Similar but different from the SS in Germany back in the day.

    787:

    You don’t need to have your “command and control system wired together” you just need your chief executive to close the damn airports and make an announcement . It’s not hard

    Especially given they’ve had direct experience with the accidental shooting down of an airliner (from the other side) making the logic leap that this might be a good idea is also not hard

    You are sitting around for two days holding a funeral and carefully planning out your military response, missing this seems bonehead stupid

    788:

    I'm guessing that just as in other modern countries there would be howls of outrage if they had shut down civilian flight. You'll recall that even the partial shutdown in the USA after 9/11 "except for important people" caused a great deal of distress. Doing so because a psychopath on the other side of the planet is threatening you yet again, just like all the other times... how many times, for how long, should they shut it down?

    For that matter, how many times has the USA shut down their civilian air traffic in response to terror threats from overseas?

    It's easy to be wise after the event. It's even easier to be a bigoted echo chamber for propaganda...

    https://theconversation.com/flight-ps752-a-deadly-combination-of-irans-recklessness-and-incompetence-129749

    789:

    Except, it seems that US presidents cannot be charged with any crime, nor tried in any court, unlike this country. What's going on here ...& how ..? ( We all know "why" )

    The Justice Department has a POLICY of not charging the President with a crime. This is due to that Congress can toss them out for basically any reason. It is up to Congress to decide to toss them out and then do it.

    Policies can be changed. But opening up the President to criminal charges opens the current office holder up to a rabid prosecutor with strong ideological convictions to make things a mess.

    Now this is a very over simplified analysis and based on federal law. There are currently several investigations against the big T at the non federal level which could result in criminal charges. But to say it's complicated is like saying RNA folding takes a day or two to understand.

    790:

    I was referring to the way so many people of all ranges of mental abilities and politics can't imagine why EVERYONE DOESN'T AGREE that this tastes great, is a wonderful book, is how everyone should spend their free time, whatever.

    791:

    Really

    You think “we just became a war zone your big flying aluminum tubes full of jet fuel and people should avoid this place for a few days” is gonna produce howls of outrage cause grandpas vacation got rerouted ?

    Sounds more like fucking common sense to me

    And as far as “after the fact” when I heard about the event my first reaction was an incredibly surprised “wait, what, some dumbass is flying airliners into that mess, are they stupid?”

    I mean come on people even this pro Iranian bias thing has limits

    792:

    current office holder

    I don't mean DT, I mean whoever is in office at the time.

    793:

    Let me describe three kinds of organizational scaling.

    Indeed. I'm not saying we shouldn't grow plants indoors, I'm arguing that planning at a national or species level on the basis that we can transition to indoor agriculture would be optimistic.

    Aerofarms.com report that their warehouse farm is 390 times more land efficient

    ... for crops that have been chosen because they use very little vertical space. Mushrooms are even more vertical space efficient. And they're even closer to being a useful food source than lettuce or bok choi.

    I really hope that the indoor farmers can make it to the point where they can profitably build new farms in major cities, because currently the places where small greens are grown are prime targets for "greenfield subdivisions", so called because the land used has has never been used before. Mind you, that land was also "previously unused" when obtained by white settlers...

    794:

    we just became a war zone

    Weren't you one of the people just recently arguing that "we have always been at war with Oceania Iran"? If murdering an Iranian general was appropriate because "this is war", what's changed about the war that makes last week the right time to stop all flights rather than, say, the day before the assassination or the month before, or for that matter next week? If "this is war" why has the USA not shut down all civilian flights?

    Saying "someone will panic and shoot down an airliner" does not help us decide exactly when and why civilian flights should be shut down.

    795:

    Here we go (tab was on another device): Iran commander says requests to shut down country's airspace denied ahead of Ukraine plane crash "We had requested several times that the country's airspace become clear of all flights," he said. "Requests were made but due to some considerations it was not done and at the same time with the flights, the war situation continued to exist."

    796:

    You don’t need to have your “command and control system wired together” you just need your chief executive to close the damn airports and make an announcement . It’s not hard <\i>

    I'm not sure, but perhaps we're agreeing. The chief executive is at the top of the command chain. Maybe the minister of defense, also in the command chain, could have shut down the airports. In any case, it does appear as if Iran should be doing some doctrine reviews.

    797:

    I was sarcastically agreeing with you, hence the coeliac comment.

    I suspect you and I have both been through a great deal of "everyone else likes this" and often the very specific "I like this" with the nonsense conclusion "therefore everybody likes this, and specifically you must like this despite the transparent lies you're telling me about not liking it".

    I've been told off in the past for saying "it seems odd to me that a young woman would be so keen to override my negative consent*" and explicitly linking her behaviour to that of rapists.

    • whatever the term is for for explicitly saying NO, rather than just failing to say yes. "lack of consent" is the latter, we don't seem to even have a term for the former. Unlike, say, "not my friend" being distinct from "is my enemy", or "I don't know" vs "I know the contrary".
    798:

    it does appear as if Iran should be doing some doctrine reviews.

    Iran has 2 somewhat parallel command chains plus a religious group that tends to ignore details but will interfere if they deem it important. And one of the command chains "belongs" to them, the religious group. Mostly.

    So yes, the current religious leader can order things country wide by fiat but other than that it gets complicated there.

    And that's just from watching it from afar. I imagine that at times day to day inside the country can be more complicated that we can imagine.

    799:

    Well, Iran, after three days of denialism, decided to do the wise thing and fess up. Much egg on their face, street demos against the regime. (And a bit of egg on mine, I should have stuck to my usual resistance of conspiracy theories. I am one of those rare Americans who thinks Lee Harvey shot JFK for perfectly understandable reasons, end of story. Persuaded by what sounded like evidence it couldn't have been a missile strike, drew out on a limb wrong conclusions.) That a regime of Islamic theocrats has been known to blunder ought not to be a surprise. Be it noted that the Trump administration, before Iran's admission, was claiming not that it was a deliberate act, but that it was an Iranian blunder. And miraculously, for once they actually got it right. Stopped clocks are right once a day, twice if they don't have an AM/PM feature.

    What does this mean concretely? Well, it still means that after this both sides fiasco, it would be very difficult for the US to attack Iran while Trump is Prez. The plane downing is a big Iranian embarrassment, but no longer usable as an excuse for war. For that, at this point you need a Democrat in the White House, and Iraq having forgiven the US for all this, which is not immediately on the table. Now Iraq is still at the point of making an official request for the US to get out, and Trump is saying screw you, you are a colony so we don't have to do what you say. Unless Iran really does go nuclear, they no longer after this have a free pass on that, which for a few days they did. And that the Iranian regime is back to having serious internal dissidence and unrest, the Solemaini moment of national unity is dead as a doornail.

    800:

    I read an article the other day about climate change response, specifically that some did a survey looking at whether endangered species protection plans included responses to climate change. The result was that overwhelmingly climate change was identified as a threat but no useful response was made.

    At the extreme species found only on a single low-lying island were identified as being a great risk when that island became tidal, but no relocation was attempted before the species was lost.

    But that was reproduced more generally right across the board, from Bengali tigers that live in coastal swamps but can't relocate because there are no suitable swamps, right through to Queensland tropical mountain species that have been moving higher up the mountain but will run out of mountain of they haven't already (for Australian values of "mountain").

    Sadly it's paywalled... but might go public after a few weeks if you're lucky. https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24532633-100-conservationists-are-ignoring-climate-change-risking-mass-extinctions/ (also, the headline in the print mag does not match the online one, making it a PITA to find even with the paper mag in my hand. This is related to why I have paper mag in my hand... New Scientist have multiple digital options and they all suck)

    801:

    And a bit of egg on mine, I should have stuck to my usual resistance of conspiracy theories. Nah, you were OK given the information publicly available. (Though there were plenty of other theories available and consistent with available information.) Here's the Iranian statement (.ir link): General Staff of Iran Armed Forces releases statement on Ukrainian plane crash (11 Jan 2020) Curiously, the statement has a point 1, but no point "2."

    3. In such a sensitive and critical situation, flight 752 of Ukraine Airlines which had taken off from Imam Khomeini International Airport, moved very close to a sensitive military spot belonging to the IRGC forces when completing a loop. The altitude and the direction of the flight's movement were like an enemy target, so the aircraft was targeted unintentionally due to human error which unfortunately caused the martyrdom of a number of Iranian national together with a number of foreigners.

    At any rate, it appears that more investigating needs to be done by the Iranians, to be confident of all the details. (i.e. a proper (technical) failure analysis.)

    802:

    And, indeed, on mine. #801:3 does appear to describe what happened as long as no-one considers the unlikelihood of an armed and hostile military flight originating from an actual civilian airport belonging to the nation using the SAM battery.

    803:

    I could go on a long rant about how ignorance kills, but I won't.

    Yes, this is a problem that I certainly know about, as do many others. The big thing that's stopping us is that most conservationists, especially the senior ones, were steeped in the idea that unchanging nature was the ideal, and that conservation efforts should return to that ideal.

    This has been backed up by property rights laws, where it's easiest to say the equivalent of "these properties are zoned for protecting endangered species. We treat humans similarly, when we put Indian tribes on the Rez and get grumpy when they don't live their traditional hunter-gatherer life with their quaint and charming folkways.

    Anyway, animals, plants, and people have always been migrating to deal with changes. Currently the super-rich can migrate at will, the poor can't, and many rare species are blocked from doing so, sometimes by geographic barriers, and much more frequently by legal barriers and societal norms.

    And yes, I've actually talked with someone who regarded himself as an environmentalist who said that, so far as he was concerned, if a rare plant was in a preserve, it was to be protected. If it had the audacity to grow anywhere else, he'd want it killed. More people than I'd like think that way.

    804:

    No I never said that.

    I’m generally of the opinion that taking him out wasn’t a horrible move as he was clearly a terrorist leader doing terrorist shit in a foreign, US controlled country, and we could probably get away with it (which we did). I don’t think we have been or are at war with Iran. We kill a lot of terrorist from countries we aren’t at war with

    There is pretty clearly a difference between a hot war with lobbying ballistic missiles at each other and the more normal Cold War State that exists between the US and Iran. The hot war state is clearly not a state you want to be flying airliners into.

    This isn’t hard

    805:

    @JH

    “Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.”

    806:

    I would REMIND PEOPLE That my wife flew into Terahn in the second week of November & flew back again on the 29th, changing planes, but not airlines ( Turkish) at Constantinople, both ways. It was pretty tense, then, internationally.

    807:

    as long as no-one considers the unlikelihood of an armed and hostile military flight originating from an actual civilian airport belonging to the nation using the SAM battery. This is the part that needs convincing investigation. It's likely that the SAM battery was driven to a (partly) random location, and it's also possible that the crew had no significant experience with the location, near the airport (behind a ridge IIRC), with the unit(radars) powered on. But still, it demands convincing explanation.

    808:

    Aerofarms.com report that their warehouse farm is 390 times more land efficient

    ... for crops that have been chosen because they use very little vertical space. Mushrooms are even more vertical space efficient. And they're even closer to being a useful food source than lettuce or bok choi.

    I don't think that's the reason. Making the warehouse a little taller wouldn't cost much. There are two main financial issues for these early adopters:

    1) They want customers (like, restaurants) who will pay a premium for freshness, and

    2) they want to turn over those growing frames a LOT of times per year. The current crop choices give them 4 to 6 weeks between reseeding.

    I'm guessing that taller plants grow more slowly. Or maybe get served cooked instead of raw.

    809:

    he was clearly a terrorist leader doing terrorist shit in a foreign

    "your nation is the terrorist most human beings fear"

    As long as you're comfortable with Iran saying the same thing when they kill the head of your military plus 5 or 6 others should he set foot in, say, Iraq or Syria*.

    The trouble for the USA is that they keep lowering the bar for what counts as legitimate actions both in their own country and in their actions outside it. That's both a philosophical point and one that most parents seem to grasp "what if everyone did that".

    US controlled country

    I thought the official line is that Iraq is a free and independent nation rather than a subject one?

    • with the obvious caveat that the US considers itself above the law and nothing they do can legitimately done back to them.
    810:

    I suspect they're optimising for highest return per capital they have right now. But I'm looking at the idea and trying to work out what they could do once they get past the little experiment stage. Viz, what if they filled that warehouse with growing area rather than just having a few racks in the middle. Can they even do that, or is the "wasted" space necessary?

    I have a small amount of experience of visiting greenhouses used for mass production of vegetables, and there's a whole lot of subtle things that turn out to make the process work better. Using the same apparent hardware some growers have twice the annual yield, because they understand that having some plants and insects as "pests" mean they don't have to sterilise a whole greenhouse every few months when a different pest gets out of hand. And so on.

    So I expect that there will be a similar set of discoveries to be made with indoor crops. But while it's all PR actions and commercial secrets we're not going to know much. The best hope is that one of those companies gets good enough to roll out across the world and undercut all the luddites with their "outside" and "soil" stuff.

    811:

    .. while it's all PR actions and commercial secrets we're not going to know much. The best hope is that one of those companies gets good enough to roll out across the world and undercut all the luddites with their "outside" and "soil" stuff.

    Cross fingers! But if you want openness, it's better to avoid the "operator" companies, and look instead at the farm-in-a-container vendors. Say, freightfarms or localrootsfarms. They actually sell farms - small ones, which are by definition less efficient than large ones. But they want their customers to be successful farmers, so they offer education and handholding and even remote monitoring. One of them claims to have experimented with 300 different crop varieties, so a body of knowledge is being built up, and is available (or anyway available to customers).

    So that's where I'd look for diversity and exploration. Hey, if you buy one, can I visit ?

    812:

    If I recall, a Freight Farm unit (a converted shipping container) was around $70k when I asked them. They're actually designed for commercial farmers to make money with, but they're not cheap.

    My snide message to Elon Musk is that he needs to get that cost down by about a order of magnitude. This will serve two purposes: --It'll help him set up greenhouses on Mars. --It'll also help him get rich by creating cheap food production systems for refugee camps and climate changed cities.

    813:

    Iraq is about as free and independent of the US as my left testicle is free and independent of me. It’s essentially a colony despite what the propaganda says, everyone knows it and Soleimani damn sure knew where he was going

    I am not at all happy with the actions of my country. We’ve been running around the world like some kind of power crazed band of idiots ever since Dubya came into power. We are guilty of a vast amount of immoral and stupid shit

    This fact however does not automatically grant sainthood to everyone we happen to tangle with

    Iran is also quite bad. Their government is a brutal theocratic dictatorship and Soleimani was a terrorist. He is dead and the world is a better place for it.

    You basically just saw two bad guys tangle and you are crying cause one bad guy killed the other one

    And I have no doubt that if some American general popped up running covert ops in Iran they’d kill him too and then probably throw a parade while dismembering his corpse

    814:

    I'm not saying that Iraq is perfect, or that their military is made only of angels. My disgust comes from the recent wave of US propaganda that apparently analiguist countries are supposed to lap up without comment. That and the unending war, there's always war, and it's always non-US civilians being killed when the US invades yet another country or declares war on some random place or thing.

    I started wondering about the civilian body counts, but I can't find any record of an Iranian attack on the US actually killing any civilians at all. But there are lots of reports of the US killing Iranian civilians. And other civilians...

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/us-has-killed-more-than-20-million-people-in-37-victim-nations-since-world-war-ii/5492051

    It's all bullshit, it's a distraction and it's likely to kill us all. You want a war one something worthwhile, I'd suggest a war on global warming except that you useless fucks have a terrible record of making things worst then losing. So how about declaring peace, and having a reconstruction program instead? A Marshall Plan, but for the whole planet.

    815:

    You think “we just became a war zone your big flying aluminum tubes full of jet fuel and people should avoid this place for a few days” is gonna produce howls of outrage cause grandpas vacation got rerouted ?

    Yes.

    In fact I know this from experience.

    You see, I'm an American old enough to remember September of 2001. That was a time when the US had just taken damage not from carelessly handled missiles but from actual airplanes. Along with a lot of other poorly thought out panicky responses the government grounded all civilian air traffic; this one at least had decent foundation in reality, since it prevented a repeat of the exact thing that had just happened.

    And there were howls of outrage.

    816:

    Moz with the obvious caveat that the US considers itself above the law and nothing they do can legitimately done back to them "This is the whole of the law" The US SHOULD have learnt this lesson in 1862-5, but did not ( CSS Alabama & signing treaties ... ) but they didn't & are still doing it. For a "minor" example, see the point-blank refusal to accept that an ordinary US person could be extradited for manslaughter [ Anne Sacoolas / Harry Dunn ] Sooer or later, it will come back to bite them & it won't be pretty & an awful lot of innocent (US) people will be killed, because of their government(s)

    Unholyguy @ 814 LONG before that. The CIA overthrew Mossadeq back in the early 1950's ... helped by the Brits, who were then deliberately & promptly shafted in 1956. We should have leart, did what the French did & backed away ..... THIS DREADFUL LIST ... is a Wiki page listing all the aatempts, many successful to screw with or actually overthrow other suposedly "soverign" countries governments. It's a long & depressing read, but I urge people to look at it.

    817:

    moved very close to a sensitive military spot belonging to the IRGC forces when completing a loop. The altitude and the direction of the flight's movement were like an enemy target<\i>

    It needs to be verified, but the departure from the plane's climb-out path appears to have happened after, not before, the missile strike.

    819:

    Ice storm update (Québec): Apologies... It seems I exaggerated based on a radio news report late yesterday, which was rather alarming. Today's updated forecast calls for up to 50 mm of ice and snow with winds up to 70 km/h but more often 30 to 40 km/h. Not good, but not quite so regionally disastrous as the radio folk were suggesting yesterday. We'll almost certainly lose power at some point today, since we often do during milder storms, but power should be restored relatively quickly.

    You'd think I'd have learned by now to confirm such claims via primary sources, but CBC is usually pretty reliable.

    820:

    Today's updated forecast calls for up to 50 mm of ice and snow with winds up to 70 km/h but more often 30 to 40 km/h. Not good, but not quite so regionally disastrous as the radio folk were suggesting yesterday.

    I sympathize; my local weather warnings for the next week are wandering between zero and 150mm of snow depending on altitude, temperature, luck, and maybe whim of Doctor Manhattan. It is, however, absolutely pissing rain. Luckily we're used to that.

    The coast was warned about waves over seven meters high and is getting them. (Which is impressive even in a photo, by the way.) Last week's 'Don't go boating, stay ashore' has evolved into 'Stay off the beach. Ideally, don't go near the beach.'

    821:

    "whim of Doctor Manhattan"... yes, as in Watchmen. :-)

    822:

    Stay off the beach. Ideally, don't go near the beach.

    Update on that: we've already lost someone. :-(

    For those willing to endure a Facepalm link, this is coastal weather video from a street in Depoe Bay.

    Up in the mountains they're expecting two to four feet of snow, which is enough to make me stay in the lowlands.

    823:

    My snide message to Elon Musk is that he needs to get that cost down by about a order of magnitude

    Wrong Musk brother, Kimbal is the one doing the farm-in-a-box thing.

    824:

    I remember 9/11 and I don’t remember a lot of outrage over grounding planes

    I remember a lot of inconvenience

    With regards to “international law” there can be no law minus the ability to enforce the law. The unpleasant fact of that is, European fever dreams of one world governments aside, they’re are many countries that are outside the law since there is no enforcement mechanism that is credible to them

    This is just reality. It’s much more “international social conventions” in actuality. Similarly you aren’t a sovereign country unless you have the power, both military and political, to maintain that sovereignty

    It’s a hard. cold world where the strong countries prey on the weak. As long as we remain politically Balkanized as a species it will remain that way. The Pax Americana we’ve been living under for the past 80 years has blunted the worst of it at the expense of allowing the Americans a free reign. Pax China or Pax EU would be no different

    825:

    “ He says in this interview that “we requested for several times that the country’s airspace be cleared of [civilian] flights.’ At the Alert Level 3, this is normal; such requests are made; well our dear brothers didn’t follow up the issue for certain considerations. So the planes fly despite the wartime situation.”

    826:

    "I was perhaps unclear, but was assuming that the kind of seriously bad weather I'm predicting wouldn't affect the overall power-generation capacity, let alone the grid, and would instead leave us with a zero-sum game: a fixed amount of power to be allocated among the list of uses."

    Yes, that's what I thought you meant. What I was getting at is that it's not a problem that can be solved simply by redistributing existing power, it needs a huge increase in generating capacity. To power a given floor area for indoor farming requires something around the same area of solar panels - you can argue it up or down a bit from that depending on how you estimate the efficiencies and losses, but you can't get it down a worthwhile amount with any realistic estimates. (Or the same capacity in tidal plants or nuclear or whatever, but the area equivalence thing with solar panels is a more effective way of visualising that amount of capacity.)

    Farming runs on the free solar energy collected over thousands of square miles - the fuel for tractors etc is just a dribble in comparison. It uses fuck loads of energy but nobody notices because the energy is just there without anyone having to do anything. Providing comparable amounts of energy to grow the plants in otherwise-dark buildings instead is not a trivial problem.

    "I'd then assume, for example, that fast food restos would be closed down to power the more important (for survival) food factories."

    If we did end up in that situation I'd reckon it would be better to keep the fast food restos and shut down domestic cooking. Cooking on a small scale is horribly inefficient, but it gets a lot better as you scale it up - if it didn't the cooks themselves would fry. Better still, of course, would be to have the factories produce stuff which is edible as it is and doesn't need cooking.

    827:

    "The Pax Americana we've been living under for the past 80 years has blunted the worst of it at the expense of allowing the Americans a free reign."

    >snort<

    We had a sodding massive war which left most of the militarily significant countries of the world smashed to fuck and faced with the need for large scale reconstruction, the lesson pretty thoroughly learned that getting into that sort of thing isn't worth the candle and the appetite for doing it on any major scale markedly diminished.

    Except for the one country which thanks to its unique geographical position got to do lots and lots of smashing up while its own effectively invasion-proof mainland remained untouched. And learned the lesson that it can happily fuck people up without worrying about them doing anything back.

    (And also, you know, nukes and stuff.)

    As for Iran there is the problem that what "everybody knows" about Iran is almost entirely derived from a lifetime's exposure to US and pro-US propaganda about the place. The dear old Shah vs. the nasty Ayatollah, except he wasn't the "dear old" Shah in any sense other than that we'd put him there to be a pet arselicker and the Ayatollah was a spanner in the Western works. It's jolly hard to get any approximation to a reasonably representative picture of what it's actually like to live there, but what scraps of impression I've picked up from known Iranians on the internet suggests that it's mostly quite decent and certainly nothing like it's painted.

    828:

    As I have pointed out before, current videos of Tehran show women with uncovered faces (and headscarves), unlike ones of Riyadh. But Iran is an enemy and Saudi is an ally ....

    829:

    "If it had the audacity to grow anywhere else, he'd want it killed."

    Er... why?

    Do his ilk have some kind of bizarre idea that the appropriate state of the world is as a sterile expanse of concrete with green things only existing in nature reserves, or something? I can't see any justification for putting any plant on a shoot-on-sight list unless it's the kind of prolific invasive foreign pest species that is quite the opposite of what's under discussion. I know people who extend that to prolific invasive native species, but the idea of just wanting to exterminate any plant because it's there makes no sense at all to me.

    830:

    “ We had a sodding massive war which left most of the militarily significant countries of the world smashed to fuck and faced with the need for large scale reconstruction, the lesson pretty thoroughly learned that getting into that sort of thing isn't worth the candle and the appetite for doing it on any major scale markedly diminished.”

    Yes we learned world wars were bad, so well, that we had two back to back in under 40 years. And there would have been another.

    Our species didn’t learn shit. The only reason we don’t do it again is yes, nukes, and a large helping of luck. But that only got us through the Cold War, the only reason we haven’t gone back to the same pattern since is that the US military is bigger then all the rest of the world put together and so no one can figure out how to pull a large war off

    Until we actually do have a one world government (which I hope and pray and doubt to see in my lifetime) the best we can hope for is a global hegemony. Which sucks but is still better then the alternatives

    And whoever is running that hegemony will behave very much like the US has behaved, because that is human nature not national character at work

    831:

    No, they believe that nature has been given a preserve, and it should stay there. Just like Aborigines, Indians, and other indigenes should stay on their reservations, practice their traditional life ways, and not complain when we violate the treaties we made with them or appropriate their goods, ideas, theology, medicines, and land.

    Most developers are the same way, but this dude claimed to be an enviro.

    I'll admit that a lot of white people get offended by the comparison of the treatment of native, non-human species with the treatment of native humans, but it's the same problem manifesting in a variety of ways. We white environmentalists tend to have capital-R Romantic notions about how nature works, and one of the common side effects of this is that we want to turn areas that haven't been overrun yet into outdoor living museums where everything works perfectly on a tiny fraction of the land it once occupied. And without maintenance or interaction with the outside world, except what we bring in when we want to be entertained, emotionally restored, look for new pharmaceuticals, or whatever. The Romantic philosophers and artists of the 19th century have a lot to answer for.

    To be fair, most enviros get it and are working to do better. Going forward with climate change, dealing with this mess is one the things that needs to be done. It's not just about equity and reparations, it's fundamentally about letting everything move as it needs to. One good place to start dealing is inside your own head, and thinking about what prejudices you bring to the table. I'm as bad as anyone about preferring areas with that "untouched" vibe. Fortunately, I've at least learned that the survival of others far outweighs my feelings about how they should live.

    832:

    "I suspect you and I have both been through a great deal of "everyone else likes this" and often the very specific "I like this" with the nonsense conclusion "therefore everybody likes this, and specifically you must like this despite the transparent lies you're telling me about not liking it"."

    Orange and mint.

    There seems to be this fixation that anything you put in your mouth that isn't actually food (toothpaste, medicines etc) can't possibly be allowed to taste like whatever it does taste like in its natural condition, even if that would be entirely bland and inoffensive. It absolutely has to be stuffed to the gills with some chemical to make it taste like something else. And the something else is always orange or mint. "Oh, everyone likes orange and mint." Well, I can't bloody stand either of them. Gah.

    833:

    pigeon the lesson pretty thoroughly learned that getting into that sort of thing isn't worth the candle and the appetite for doing it on any major scale markedly diminished. SOME idiots haven't learnt. Iraq-Iran ... the relgious wankers of Hizbollah & Hamas ... any random absolutist dictator in sub-Saharan Africa ... all the "little " wars in S & Central America, even without CIA meddling ... Putin fucking shit-stirring for "fun" No, they haven't bloody learnt. [ As I note "Unholyguy" has said ... ] Which is why we still have just-about capable set of Armed Services, because those rabid nutters ARE out there & haven't learnt. Your comment on the "immunity" of the USA is interesting. A friend told me that he was in New York in the early-mid 2000's (After 11/9/2001) when London got bombed in 2005 ... the people he was drinking with & many other simply coould not comprehend or even start to get their heads round the reaction of London & its people after that. That we simply went... "Oh FUCK - another load of idiot bombers, well, we know what to do" - which was ... "Close ranks & march on" Iran Well, from close personal observation of a female who was there in November ... the people are (or were) being PUSHED by Trump, into the arms of the ayatollahs, as the Russians were pushed into the arms of Stalin ( whom they hated) by the Nazis/SS. Now, of course, there are demos in Theran, what a suprise, not. She says that it's blindingly obvious that.going round in black coverings is HATED by 95% of the female population & if it wasn't for their rabid puritan control-freak MALES in the "revolutionary guard" they's=d be out partying like the rest of us would like to. (*Note) Which makes Trump ( & the rest of the US oil-fascists ) behaviour even more stupid, if that were possible.

    Plants. I'm trying to find out if "Persian hogweed", which they call Golpar - proper name: Heracleum persicum will grow here. The seeds are a valued spice, but - it's a prohibited weed in Finland & parts of Sweden - but it's liked in Tromso (Norway) - simply because it will grow that far north. AFAIK, it's unknown here - yet.

    *Note: Which raises the question, why are there fuckwit females covered heat-to-toe with eye-slits in this country - advertising themseleves a SLAVES - which is illegal under our law. Yes, I know - they are both brainwashed & bullied into it - which should make it even more illegal.

    834:

    And the something else is always orange or mint. Oh come on. There's cherry[, orange), lemon[, mint], blue[1], grape. (?No indigo?)

    [1] OK blue is sometimes "mint". But also "Blue raspberry". And also occasionally blueberry.

    835:

    And the something else is always orange or mint. "Oh, everyone likes orange and mint." Well, I can't bloody stand either of them. Gah.

    So get a bottle of anise extract and drip some on. Perhaps horseradish powder? Or cocoa powder? You might want to mix the latter 3:1 with a sweetener, unless you're into bitter flavors.

    Anyway, the flavorings are often there to keep you from gagging on the main ingredient. IIRC menthol (or at least some part of mint flavoring) actually numbs taste buds somewhat, providing that cool feeling and also probably disguising unpleasant taste sensations.

    836:

    True. When my home-supplied toothpaste ran out at my first prep. school, I was given a tin (yes, tin) of Gibbs SR. Apparently, the SR stood for Sodium Resorcinate, which explained why it tasted exactly like soap. It gets worse, but I will spare you :-)

    837:

    "I'll admit that a lot of white people get offended by the comparison of the treatment of native, non-human species with the treatment of native humans, but it's the same problem manifesting in a variety of ways."

    It gives me a useful handle on the kind of mentality concerned.

    I guess it's the same kind of problem I had with Doc Smith's descriptions of World Steel or the Entwistle loading plant. The cartoonish screaming villainy and mobster-like behaviour of the corporate bosses sounded ludicrously unrealistic to me, and it was quite hard for me to understand (at a somewhat later date) that US Steel actually did behave like that, and likewise the Entwistle episode was a reasonably true to life rendering of Smith's own experiences in WW2. It could be argued that I still don't fully understand, as I still can't really generalise the revelation and instead still instinctively assume that real businesspeople act more respectably than mobsters.

    838:

    I won't/can't confirm what it tastes like to you, but can confirm the name, tin and dis-likable flavour.

    839:

    I didn't have such a problem with those scenes, but then my maternal grandfather did work at Nobel Explosives.

    840:

    Really? I'd be after trying to condense that with geranium extract, or possibly lemon peel extract. If it worked it would be much more productive than, say, sneaking exotic seeds into the school greenhouse and hoping the teachers didn't recognise the plants.

    841:

    "Anyway, the flavorings are often there to keep you from gagging on the main ingredient."

    Yes, but making it taste even worse isn't very useful... better just to leave it as it is. It's much like when someone has a smelly crap and somehow thinks that spraying air freshener around afterwards will achieve anything other than a synergy of vileness.

    And not all substrates are unpleasant in their natural state. Unflavoured Vitamin C tablets are bloody lovely. (Mind you, so is battery acid.)

    Also, the unpleasantness of the two flavours in question is enhanced by their persistence. They hang around in your mouth for ages, and it takes even longer before they stop drawing your attention to every minor and otherwise unnoticeable eructation. And in hanging around they ruin the flavours of tea and tobacco, both of which I like to enjoy on a quasi-continuous basis.

    842:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_John_Boyce

    Long and dreadful that list is, but certainly not "all" the regime changes the US had had a hand in. The US deposed an Australian government.

    843:

    Greg

    The picture your wife (?) reported back from Iran is one that is on the news in the US. But it is on the moderate investigative shows and articles. Not the HEADLINE OF THE DAY, get everyone riled up reporting.

    844:

    paws My father was drafted ( as an MSc in Chenistry ) to be a Scintific Civil Servant at Nobel explosives, Ardeer Factory, Ayshire ... 1941-45

    David L Correct ... she's trying to visit all of the old, classic Silk Road cites, towns & caravanserais, in various bits, which is why she was in Kashgar earlier in the year & Smaraknd & Khiva the year before. ( Cue J E Flecker's "Hassan" & maybe, more evocatively, Omar Khayyam )

    845:

    If I may ask a totally change of subject question.

    If my wife and I visit London for a week are there any dates to just flat out avoid in the upcoming February or March?

    846:

    You should any date that requires you to fly.

    This is not the right time to deny the human part of human-caused climate catastrophe, or to admit that you want to make it worse. Need I remind you that Australia is on fire and the "air" outside my window is grey and smells like smoke.

    847:

    I have sourdough starter going back to 1978. It will curl your tastebuds, but it makes excellent waffles (and bread).

    848:

    Part 1 - At which time my grandfather was working at Poughfoot (sp)near Dumfries.

    849:

    I nuke them for about three minutes, sometimes add pepper, and eat them as finger food. But I don't have the super-taster gene. Overcooked cabbage is bad, but I've met steamed (and otherwise cooked) that was delicious.

    I did, yesterday, meet a recipe for tacos using baked cauliflower. (With lots of hot sauce.) https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/1/11/1910737/-What-s-for-Dinner-v14-27-Tacos-Buffalo-cauliflower-tacos-baked-not-fried

    850:

    They can be tried when they leave office. (They're only exempt while in office.)

    851:

    Some taste like cinnamon.

    852:

    There are places where they put greenhouses, or plant nurseries, under power-transmission lines.

    853:

    Well as to boiled, baked, whatever veggies, anyone here had boiled okra? A few times growing up we had it sliced and deep fried. Which meant you really only tasted the fried batter. I had heard at times of boiled okra in a derogatory manner. I asked my "grown up on a working farm" father about it. His comment was that it was so slimy that your socks would slide down your legs while you ate it. It wasn't a fave at his house.

    854:

    Yes, I've had it. Not memorably bad.

    We've had rather more dried okra. That gets pretty crunchy.

    855:

    Lamb and Okra stew. I use the recipe from Claudia Roden's A Book of Middle Eastern food. Unfortunately, these days I can't tolerate the seeds, so I can't have it anymore (it used to be a rare treat when we could get okra, by the time it became easily obtainable, the IBS was in full (ahem) flow).

    856:

    I had a bit when I lived in Florida. I lost a lot of weight. I think in a previous post I said 20 kg, but thinking about it, probably 30 kg. (I'd been in an abusive relationship and used food and work as an escape)

    I love cauliflower, roasted, fried, battered and fried, boiled (for about 2 minutes), curried or raw. Okra... Not so much.

    857:

    I find boiled & curried okra pretty unpleasant. I'm willing to try it fried but not hopeful.

    858:

    I was weaned onto it. Yes, I like it, and prefer it boiled to fried, though it is best in things like gumbo.

    859:

    I loathe okra in every form that I've encountered it in. In principle I ought to like it - I first encountered it in Indian cuisine as a small child, over half a century ago, and I like just about everything else there. But despite the blandishments of my mother, who loved them, I never did get them.

    I'm fine with natto, which also has a most un-western texture. Go figure.

    860:

    I quite like okra, in small quantities. Like more or less anything else from "Indian" (sub-continental) cuisine, I only ever had access to it in adulthood.

    861:

    Greg, that’s insightful It took me a long time to realise that while they seem very similar on the surface, the US and the UK have profound cultural differences, one of the main being that the US has no real experience of war in the homeland for a long time

    862:

    Rex No, it's much deeper & much worse than that. I first visited Germany in 1965, with my father - who spoke almost-perfect German. { He was a chemistry MSC, you HAD to learn GErman to to a degree in it, back then &, as a result of hios work at Ardeer ( mentioned previously ) was offered the chance to volunteer for "The Civilian Military Government of Germany, which we are going to set up, after the nazis are finally beaten" - in March 1944. He spent from late May '44 until near the end of '47 there, helping reconstyruct parts of the chemical/dye etc industries in & around Bielefeld..... I got to see a then=contemprary ( i.e. 1965 ) US forces booklet called; "Thes strange German ways" - which fascinated me ... until I realised that 95% were also "strange British ways" ANOTHER reason to be frightened & horrified by brexit, of course. The cultural gap between us & US has both widened & deepend since then, in spite - or maybe because of "Hollywood".

    863:

    so in the US here but BBC was on the radio going on much more than strictly necessary about recent royal family stuff.

    In any case, the one person was accusing one prince or another of "whinge"-ing. And while I've been around long enough to know that's the rough equivalent of the US "whine", I somehow thought they were pronounced the same (Sort of like a gaol/jail thing). But no, is "whinge" really pronounced to rhyme with "hinge"?

    864:

    Icestorm update: Turned out to be not so bad after all, though 32K people south and east of Montréal are without power for a day or so.

    Forgot to make explicit that my main goal in mentioning the old and current ice storms was to point out that in countries with significant ice storm risk, the grid isn't invulnerable. The same weather that takes out crops can sometimes take out the grid. Other countries have different problems (e.g., volcanoes, earthquakes, hurricanes) that can also take out the grid.

    In the original context of food security, the solution is to have a backup power supply. The usual solutions is to install generators to provide power until the grid is restored. But you'd need honking big generators. (Our local town hall/fire department building recently installed a backup generator the size of a railway boxcar. That's small potatoes for a food factory large enough to feed our suburb.) Also, generators typically being large sources of greenhouse gas emission, large storage batteries are likely to be better long-term solutions from an environmental perspective if you feed them with "clean" power (here, we use hydroelectric almost exclusively), but last I checked, big batteries are not cost-competitive with generators. So I guess you have to choose your poisons.

    865:
    helping reconstyruct parts of the chemical/dye etc industries in & around Bielefeld

    At least he was under the impression that he was there. He was probably somewhere else....

    866: 963 Para 1 - Oh yes. IMO they're not worth a fraction of the time/bandwidth being used on them.

    Para 2 - "Whinging" I thought was Australian for "whining", but yes to rhyme with "hinge".

    867:

    He was a chemistry MSC, you HAD to learn GErman to to a degree in it, back then

    Into the 70s many (most?/all?) BS degrees in the US for Chemistry strongly wanted the language requirement you took for the degree to be German. I don't know about today.

    My son-in-law is a Chem Eng major. He knows some German but I don't think it was a degree requirement. Engineering and BofS degree paths in the US are very different at most Universities in terms of emphasis and "side" courses.

    868:

    J Reynolds OLD JOKE I have, too ben to Bielefeld ... ( And do uou mean 617 squadron bombed an IMAGINARY target with Grad Slams, 14th March 1945 then? )

    David L IIRC the "bible" of Chenmistry - "Beilstein" - was FIRST published in English in about 1978 or thereabouts.

    869:

    As part of the climate change discussion, here's an interesting article that ties an ancient Viking runestone to a climate crisis in the sixth century CE. I make no claims about the scientific validity of the article.

    870:

    With regards to the assassination of Qassam Soleimani and subsequent events, let's reiterate some facts: - Soleimani was killed by explicit order of the President of the United States - Soleimani was an official of the Iranian government - There is no declared state of war between the United States and Iran - It is the express policy of the United States not to conduct assassinations

    Within the constraints of international law (which is rightly described above as more like behavioral norms), it is logical to conclude that the United States not only carried out an act of war against Iran, but also arguably a war crime. Not to mention giving Iran an excuse to attack U.S. officials anywhere in the world.

    This does not seem to be the result of a well though out policy process (understatement of the year to date?).

    I like to feel pride in my country. I cannot today.

    871:

    - Soleimani was an official of the Iranian government Yes. This is the core of the situation; Soleimani reported to Iran's Supreme Leader (Ayatollah Ali Khamenei). We've been struggling for analogies; the closest might be the head of the CIA, if the head of the CIA were well known to the populace and generally (not universally) liked. And considered the head of an evil organization (and often loathed and feared for terrorist-style activities) by much of the rest of the world. (Excepting perhaps the Directorate of Analysis.) (The CIA director reports to the DNI who reports the President, however the CIA director often has the President's ear.) Somebody should ask Mike Pompeo whether he would consider it an act of war for the US head of the CIA to be overtly assassinated by a foreign state. (He was Director of the Central Intelligence Agency from January 2017 until April 2018.)

    Anyway, this is the sort of danger[1] that we (the world) are dealing with with Donald J. Trump (in part because of his atrocious and selfish decision-making style) as POTUS: With a New Weapon in Donald Trump's Hands, The Iran Crisis Risks Going Nuclear (William Arkin, 1/13/20) None of these forward deployed bombers have nuclear weapons with them, nor are there nuclear weapons deployed at the half dozen forward bomber bases used in the Pacific, Europe or the Middle East. If there was any conceivable American nuclear strike on Iran, sources agree, it would come from the new low-yield Trident submarine-based system.

    [1] "imminent threat" might be a little ... provocative, eh? And yes the danger is orders of magnitude larger than was any imminent (or long term future) threat posed by Soleimani. Dangers/Swords of Damocles that we've had dangling over our heads since oh roughly the Cuban Missile crisis.

    872:

    Lessee, 1. Cabbage - in cole slaw, just fine. In the "fabulous fat-burning soup"... but when I was doing that (I lived with someone who wanted it occasionally), we prefered Savoy or purple cabbage, and then there was the way I cooked it. Not big at all on stuffed cabbage. 2. Broccoli - if well-hidden, i.e. chicken divane, or cream of broccoli soup. I really am aggravated at all the bloody Chinese restaurants that discovered it, and don't add, say, bean sprouts or water chestnuts or bamboo shoots. I really really get pissed when they cut huge chunks that need to be cut with a knife. 3. Cauliflower. This, and broccoli, I'll put on a veggie tray for a party, for them as likes it. I really dislike the smell of it being steamed, as an ex-wife used to like it. 4. I give up, why would you want to make cole slaw with Brussels sprouts?

    873:

    Heh, heh, heh. Biggest dinner I ever cooked was a Greek dinner for 20, back around '77, as a benefit to raise money for the farm workers', who were just unionizing then.

    Of course, I was on the con committee for Philcon, con suite, '79-84, (staff asst '85, taking a break), and '86, which I like to describe as throwing a party for between 800 and 1700 of my closest friends for three days.... If you're wondering, that was back when we had to smuggle food and drink in: for Philcon '86, the 50th anniversary, it included 56 cases (24 cans) of soda, and four half-kegs of bheer.

    874:

    I agree - too fucking many funerals happening.

    Please note: Last week, we lost Mike Resnick (and it was a comment by him to me and Eric Flint that resulted in my writing the story that just got published).

    And Michelle Rosenburg, a very long time member of BSFS, and a stalwart (and troublemaker) of the Baltimore Democratic Party.

    And just yesterday, Hugo-winning cartoonist Steve Stiles.

    And meanwhile, the scum of the GOP and the Tories are hanging around making trouble for us all.

    875:

    Only while in office... and that is ONLY based on three "opinions" written by the Attorney General of the US's office - there is no such law, nor is there any such thing in the Constitution.

    Once out of office, through votes or impeachment and removal... which is why the Orange Idiot is desperate.

    876:

    If you want to call him a terrorist, then you must also call the Orange Idiot a terrorist, and the US the largest sponsor of terrorism world-wide.

    First coming to mind, the death squads Raygun had running in Nicaragua, that WE TRAINED AND PAID FOR.

    877:

    Datum: the parliament and PM of Iraq told the US get your troops out. The US said, um, nope.

    878:

    @871: Soleimani's position was actually closer to Commander USSOCOM or Commander USASOC, the latter being the U.S. Army component of USSOCOM. Overall, the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps (IGRC) and its Quds Force element bear an uncanny and disturbing parallel to Nazi Germany's Schutzstaffel (SS), in that both are political and military organizations personally loyal to their country's leader, and largely independent of the overall military hierarchy and governmental controls of their respective countries. The IRGC has taken this further by establishing a financial network within Iran.

    Please check your citation on the CIA Directorate of Analysis; it doesn't show a link. But I am quite certain no one in CIA, DIA, INR or the rest of the Intelligence Community (of which I have not been a part since 2001) has anything nice to say about IRGC or Quds Force.

    The United States calls itself, in part, a nation of laws. That rings pretty hollow right now.

    879:

    I sort of remember after 9/11 (note that I had just finished six months of chemo the beginning of June, I'd been laid off the end of July, and, oh yes, it was coming up on three years since my late wife had dropped dead), and I do remember idiots complaining and whining about civilian flights.

    880:

    So what's the next step for the Iraqi government? Blockade the military bases? If they simply prevented shipments of food into them, that would get people's attention pretty quickly, I'd think.

    Options: * the US takes off the mask and starts shooting people in order to make them do what they want * the US overthrows the current Iraqi government and installs more pliable quislings in their place * do what the (nominally) sovereign government of Iraq wants and withdraw.

    881:

    Which one's the "orange idiot"? Bozo or Trumpolini! ;-)

    882:

    3. Cauliflower. This, and broccoli, I'll put on a veggie tray for a party, for them as likes it. I really dislike the smell of it being steamed, as an ex-wife used to like it. 4. I give up, why would you want to make cole slaw with Brussels sprouts?

    Cauliflower I prefer fried or roasted. It makes a decent meatless substitute for chicken wings (e.g., a thing with structure but not much flavor that can be dipped into sauce) Broccoli is pretty good this way too. Air fried broccoli can sometimes take the place of french fries. Sometimes taking a Beano helps with the digestive upset afterwards

    As for the Brussels sprout slaw...All the plants we're talking about are the same species genetically: a hybrid mustard, something whose wild ancestors started as a rosette of leaves, then bolted to produce a woody central stem ending in an inflorescence. Various parts have just been tweaked. For example cabbages emphasize a massively growing initial rosette, while broccoli (pigmented) and cauliflower (unpigmented) are massive mutant inflorescences with a much less woody stem. The difference between a cabbage and a Brussel sprout is that cabbage is a central rosette and undeveloped stem, while Brussels sprouts bolt, growing the stem. However, the Brussels sprouts produce masses of axillary leaves, effectively little lateral rosettes, on the stem (similar to the way a pine tree grows, actually).

    So Chef Bright Eyes gets the idea that Brussels sprouts are simply little bitty cabbages and shaves them thin, thinking they make microslaw. Alas, Brussels sprout leaves are tough, more like collards than cabbage, and need to be cooked to break down the structural elements in the cell walls into something humans can readily digest. I agree that you can make micro-slaw out of cooked Brussels sprouts, but it is kind of gratuitous overkill, sort of like making coleslaw out of sauerkraut.

    883:

    Sometimes taking a Beano helps with the digestive upset afterwards<\i>

    Is that bean and other vegetable distress a genetic thing, like lactose intolerance? We (West Europe descent, mostly, with dashes of other clades) have been eating lots of beans, lentils, brassicae and other veggies for decades and have never had a hint of it.

    884:

    [1] "imminent threat" might be a little ... provocative, eh?

    And also, apparently, not the point of the assassination. Doesn't mater whether or not there was an imminent threat because he was a bad guy.

    https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2020/01/13/trump-says-it-doesnt-really-matter-if-iranian-general-posed-an-imminent-threat.html

    If you haven't already read it, this might be of interest:

    http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/2020/01/on-irans-retaliation-guest-perspective.html

    885:

    * the US takes off the mask and starts shooting people in order to make them do what they want

    I know someone from Pakistan who argues that the US is already shooting people. I suspect many Afghanis would also agree.

    886:

    Ah sorry, missed closing quote, just wikipedia:

    (Excepting perhaps the Directorate of Analysis.)

    I was just saying that the Directorate of Analysis is not directly involved in operations, and so is much less culpable. I agree about USSOCOM; it's just that most Americans have never heard of it or given it any thought, and also we're looking for (for analogy purposes) a political position that reports to the US president and is involved in proxy wars and destabilization operations and covert nastiness. The US's political structure really doesn't have a good mapping to the Iranian political structure.

    887:

    Allen Thomson @ 883 DID YOU REALLY MEAN THAT? taking a Beano ... oh dear, oh dearie me ... Send for Dennis the Menace & Gnasher.

    888:

    From the Brin guest article is this gem That was a perfect place to leave our escalating tit-for-tat with Iran (at least for this round). It was unarmed Iraqis protesting our killing other Iraqis in Iraq. They shook their fists in anger at us, but no one was hurt. Total casualties in the three incidents: One American contractor, on our side, and 25 Iraqi militiamen, on the other side.

    Even Godwin's Army only killed 10 of the enemy as revenge for every soldier killed in occupied territories.

    Was it Morrisey who sang "some lives are worth more than others (and some girl's mothers are worth more than other girl's mothers)"?

    889:

    .. the death squads Raygun had running in Nicaragua, that WE TRAINED AND PAID FOR.

    Worse, the CIA trained some torturers.

    890:

    To power a given floor area for indoor farming requires something around the same area of solar panels ..

    freightfarms.com thinks their containers need 125..165 KWh per day. Heating/cooling has a day/night variation, and also, plants need a "day", but it sounds like maybe half a dozen kilowatts on average.

    In places with expensive power, I can imagine giving the plants "daytime" during the night, to get the cheaper utility rates. Or not, particularly where solar power is cheap.

    891:

    “The US does assasinations”

    Well no shit, what rock have you been living under? Osama Bin Ladin didn’t exactly fall down the stairs. And he wasn’t the first by any means. Any avowed policy to the contrary is pure propaganda

    “Trump is a terrorist leader”

    Probably, by any reasonable definition. I’m actually ok if someone takes him out, I won’t cry . Like I said early, two bad guys fighting

    “Iraq and the Americans”: prediction. Iraq won’t do shit. They know which side of their bread the butter is on. There will be some token protestations, some money exchanges hands, and back to business as usual

    892:

    I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people,' said the man. 'You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides.'

    He waved his thin hand towards the city and walked over to the window. 'A great rolling sea of evil,' he said, almost proprietorially. 'Shallower in some places, of course, but deeper, oh, so much deeper in others. But people like you put together little rafts of rules and vaguely good intentions and say, this is the opposite, this will triumph in the end. Amazing!' He slapped Vimes good-naturedly on the back.

    'Down there,' he said, 'are people who will follow any dragon, worship any god, ignore any iniquity. All out of a kind of humdrum, everyday badness. Not the really high, creative loathsomeness of the great sinners, but a sort of mass-produced darkness of the soul. Sin, you might say, without a trace of originality. They accept evil not because they say yes, but because they don't say no. I'm sorry if this offends you,' he added, patting the captain's shoulder, 'but you fellows really need us.'

    893:

    their containers need 125..165 KWh per day

    Off the top of my head Sydney typically gets between 3 and 8 kWh/kW with the obvious seasonal variation between those numbers. A 40 foot container with a roughly 30m2 area could hold roughly 30m2 * 1kW/m * 20% = 6kW of panels, and in summer if there's no smoke coverage should be good for 56kWh/day. Which means each container needs 2-3x as much solar farm panel area to supply it (industry best coverage is about 50%), assuming it's always midsummer. The Engs will have a ratio closer to 10 and obviously in the winter the ratio goes to infinity (I suspect conventional farms have the same division by zero error). Luckily Australia is a cooling climate (just wait, you will be too) so in winter when the farms need more power the people will be using less.

    So the container farm has to yield ~6x more than the same area of farmland just to break even, ignoring capital costs. Although we probably have to allow some benefit for transports costs (as they approach scales up they will have to enter to normal production systems where greens are sold at a central market which is located in a relatively dense part of the city - you're not going to be renting land to put farm containers on where you have to compete with transshippers).

    I would love us to get to that point, but for now the market is very much artisanal vegetables for the restaurant trade. Much as I eat artisanal rice (Tim even has a beard!)

    (40’ long x 8’ wide x 8’ 6" high, 12.19m long x 2.44m wide x 2.59m high)

    894:

    prediction. Iraq won’t do shit. They know which side of their bread the butter is on.

    That is what Trump assumes, and I suspect the terrorists around him hope.

    I can't decide whether it would be better if that turns out to be true, or worse.

    Right now I'm a more thinking about this article, where Facebook recognise that they have broken democracy and have decided that it's in their interests to keep it broken.

    https://themargins.substack.com/p/facebooks-pr-feels-broken One of their most longtime, loyal leaders is directly saying they have the power to sway national elections. It is their decision, and their decision alone, to resist the temptation to "change the outcome"!

    (the second quote, about Facebook, is from the linked article not from unholyguy. Since someone here regularly needs that explained)

    895:

    Icestorm update: Turned out to be not so bad after all, though 32K people south and east of Montréal are without power for a day or so.

    That's a relief. I'm low enough to miss the snow and ice in the nearby mountains (official advice: stay off the mountains). I'm also far enough inland to miss the rough seas; we literally have a place called Cape Foulweather so we aren't too surprised when stuff like this rolls in.

    896:

    Osama Bin Ladin didn’t exactly fall down the stairs.

    That's not a very good example. He was never a part of any government. He wound up very dead and by action of the American government, but it's closer to excessively applied law enforcement than political assassination.

    897:

    DID YOU REALLY MEAN THAT?<\i>

    Assuming I understand what THAT is, the answer is yes. No problems whatsoever over the course of several decades.

    898:

    Even Godwin's Army only killed 10 of the enemy as revenge for every soldier killed in occupied territories.

    Not really fair.

    Pick up a weapon and wear a uniform (or identifying symbol as addressed by Geneva/Hague), and you can't really cry foul when the people you've been shooting at, shoot back. Both directions.

    There's a difference between striking a convoy of armed militiamen (AFAIK without killing any surrounding civilians), and the Godwin's Scum approach of marching into the nearest village and murdering civilians.

    PS Note that "Godwin's murderous thugs in natty uniforms" were murdering non-combatants from at least early 1940 onwards; it wasn't a late-war drop in training quality, it wasn't a reaction to brutality, it wasn't the result of seeing their opponent as "lesser": it was a feature from the very start. They murdered prisoners of war, and finished off the wounded, with malice aforethought, at close range. See Le Paradis and Wormhoudt, among others.

    899:

    And do uou mean 617 squadron bombed an IMAGINARY target with Grad Slams, 14th March 1945 then?
    Merely proves how powerful THEY are.

    900:

    Charlie Stross @ 739:

    NOTHING at all wrong with Brusseles Sprouts

    Yes there is: they're cultivars of the satanic demon vegetable from hell, Brassica oleracea. (As is mustard, cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, and a bunch of other vomit-inducing inedible so-called "foods".)

    Seriously, the brassicae are on my Room 101 List, along with wasps and racism. I have a little list, of things that I shan't miss ...

    Would you care to elaborate further? I like broccoli. Cabbage & cauliflower are OK ... and even Brussels Sprouts are "edible" if they're not over-cooked.

    901:

    Bill Arnold @ 778:

    The thing I can’t figure out about the airliner shoot down is why the Iranians didn’t just ground civilian airliners until things cooled down

    That does seem to a fuck-up on their part. Apparently there was argument about it in the Iranian government, with the part that launched the symbolic response attack recommending shutdown of civil aviation, and some other group saying no.
    Too much trust in IFF, perhaps? I hope the Iranians are forthcoming about their investigation.
    This medium piece interesting, couched as a story but with tech details and maps and timings and etc.
    Tor, Iran, and Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752 (ckfinite, Jan 10)
    (It doesn't speculate on IFF though.)

    I think "IFF" may be a red herring.

    It's fairly common for civil aviation to use different transponder codes for different parts of a flight. And it's fairly common for the tower operators to instruct departing pilots to change their transponder setting as part of the routine to switch from one set of controllers to the next. It makes it easier for the new controller to find the flight on the display, so I don't see any real significance in the flight having changed their transponder (IFF) code.

    902:

    @891: Osama Bin Ladin didn’t exactly fall down the stairs.

    Bin Ladin was the self-avowed leader of Al-Qaeda, internationally recognized as a terrorist organization; in counter-terror terms, a violent non-state actor. This placed him and his group outside the normal protections of soldiers, diplomats and spies. In criminal terms, an accessory to mass murder prior to the act, at the very least.

    Soleimani, on the other hand, held an official position in the government of Iran. His killing was a fundamentally different legal act than the termination of Bin Ladin.

    Mind you, most people in Europe and North America, and many in the Middle East, did not mourn the passing of either man. There is, however, an important legal distinction that may result in the death of U.S. and/or allied personnel.

    903:

    The vegetable Brassica oleracea contains a substance which the vast majority of people are completely unable to taste at all. Those people are able to taste the subtle flavours in Brussels sprouts, the bland taste of cauliflower, &c. &c.

    There is, however, a subset of people who can taste this chemical, and for them it is horrible and rank. It completely overwhelms the other flavours and renders all varieties, whether cabbage or broccoli, sprout or cauli, or any of the others (and this species really does produce lots of varieties, such that most people don't realise it's one species) horrible. For these people, those who tell them that gently steaming sprouts, or stir frying cabbage, is the way to make them better - that advice completely misses the point.

    You can cook cabbage badly enough to make it repugnant to the majority, but there's no way to cook it good enough that makes it nice for the minority. Charlie, sadly, is one of that minority.

    904:

    s/over/under/ :)

    I find a particularly annoying example of Things Ain't What They Used To Be in the malign influence that has come to afflict how people decide to cook things. You used to be able to rely on people testing whether vegetables had been boiled enough by prodding them with a fork to see if they had gone properly soft yet. It's pretty much the obvious thing to do since once you get to the point of prodding them with a fork on your plate it's a bit late to put them back in if they turn out not to be done yet, and everyone knows what it's like when that happens. These days, although people still know what it's like when that happens, they deliberately try and make sure it does happen by only putting the vegetables in long enough to get hot. It's no less unpleasant being served vegetables which are deliberately "cooked" hard, crunchy, and maximally foul of taste than it ever was to have it happen by accident because the cook had cocked it up, but some evil force to which I am fortunately immune has somehow persuaded everyone else that doing it deliberately somehow stops it being horrible, and I wish it would bugger off.

    905:

    The same country's army, with a more Trumpulous leader, was doing the same 10 for 1 thing right from the start of the previous war, too. Indeed it seems to be a regrettably common feature of lots of wars.

    906:

    Presumably you can have the opposite effect by taking a Viz, especially one that has Johnny Fartpants in it.

    907:

    I wonder if there is also a subset of people who can taste it and consider it a requirement? It might explain why I like brassicas but reject pretty much every other vegetable (except spuds, but they don't really count).

    908:

    Yes. There's this current fad of "let's cook everything less, because we think it will taste better/be cool, man".

    Chefs: go bugger yourselves, there is NO WAY I will ever cook pork products to under 178F. I will hever gook it "rare", as I will steak.

    And then there's other stuff. I wrote a post of an occasional thread on my Facepalm page called "Bouncing potatoes", and I noted that, after decades of hitting con hotel brunch buffets, it's clear to me that they seem to think that honeydew should be served unripe, sorry, crunchy....

    909:

    Greg Tingey @ 781: Martin @ 769
    Quote from that piece you linked to:

    Carroll added: “No one, not even the president, is above the law.”

    Except, it seems that US presidents cannot be charged with any crime, nor tried in any court, unlike this country.

    What's going on here ...& how ..? ( We all know "why" )

    EXCEPT ... The President can be sued in civil court while still in office. The Supreme Court allowed Paula Jone's suit against Bill Clinton go forward even while Ken Starr was still desperately flailing around trying to find something, anything to charge him with. Just within the last week, the Supreme Court refused to hear motions from Trumpolini seeking to dismiss the suits by women who sued him for sexual assault & harassment.

    I'm not quite sure when the U.S. Department of Justice adopted their policy that a sitting President cannot be indicted for criminal acts WHILE STILL IN OFFICE.

    Maybe during the Cheney/Bush administration. It certainly wasn't policy while Clinton was in office, and there do appear to be a great number of criminal acts by Cheney/Bush for which prosecution was deferred (and which in the spirit of bi-partisanship Obama chose not to prosecute). Certainly, if Starr had been able to come up with ANYTHING even remotely plausible against Clinton, he would have brought charges and any DoJ policy to the contrary be damned!

    910:

    You used to be able to rely on people testing whether vegetables had been boiled enough by prodding them with a fork to see if they had gone properly soft yet.

    I'm reminded of what the French chef told Gareth in "England Expects" (ep.14 of Chef!)…

    "But the contest is next week. Surely you must begin boiling the vegetables today."

    911:

    Unholyguy @ 791: You think “we just became a war zone your big flying aluminum tubes full of jet fuel and people should avoid this place for a few days” is gonna produce howls of outrage cause grandpas vacation got rerouted ?

    Yup. Happens every time.

    Sounds more like fucking common sense to me

    Funny thing about common sense, it's probably the most UNcommon thing there is.

    I can see the path their thinking followed. "Years ago the Great Satan shot down one of our civilian airliners. We are not the Great Satan, so we would never shoot down a civilian airliner. Especially, we would never shoot down a civilian airliner taking off from our own airport."

    I doubt their thinking was even that concrete. Iran shared the universal attitude that it's always the other guy who's likely to screw the pooch BIGTIME. Couldn't possibly happen to us ... until it does.

    912:

    Piogeon @ 906 😁

    JBS Unfortunately, all too true.

    913:

    Bill Arnold @ 801: Here's the Iranian statement (.ir link):
    General Staff of Iran Armed Forces releases statement on Ukrainian plane crash (11 Jan 2020)
    Curiously, the statement has a point 1, but no point "2."

    3. In such a sensitive and critical situation, flight 752 of Ukraine Airlines which had taken off from Imam Khomeini International Airport, moved very close to a sensitive military spot belonging to the IRGC forces when completing a loop. The altitude and the direction of the flight's movement were like an enemy target, so the aircraft was targeted unintentionally due to human error which unfortunately caused the martyrdom of a number of Iranian national together with a number of foreigners.

    At any rate, it appears that more investigating needs to be done by the Iranians, to be confident of all the details. (i.e. a proper (technical) failure analysis.)

    That's just knee-jerk ass covering and blame shifting. Get out in front of the news cycle & spin the story to make it the victim's fault ... or the U.S. ... or anyone's fault EXCEPT the "General Staff of Iran Armed Forces" before someone else can get their spin going and pin the blame on the "General Staff of Iran Armed Forces" ...

    All of the evidence I'm aware of indicates the flight followed the same path it always followed departing Imam Khomeini International Airport for Kyiv.

    It didn't deviate until after the first missile struck, at which point it appears electronics failed (no transponder, no radio contact) and it appears the pilot made an attempt to turn back to the airport. Which might have succeeded if there hadn't been a second missile.

    Or it might not have. I don't know how badly the airliner was crippled by the first missile. But it does seem like the pilot tried.

    Maybe the "black boxes" have a separate power supply and kept on recording voice/data, but I doubt it. I expect it all stops at the same instant.

    914:

    Going back a subject Infighting amongst the Murdochs over AUS fires, or so it seems.

    915:

    paws4thot @ 881: Which one's the "orange idiot"? Bozo or Trumpolini! ;-)

    Yes.

    916:

    So Iran is now on record that grounding civilian aircraft when they reach “threat level 3” (which is their highest threat level and the level they were at, at the time) is part of their operating procedure . They just decided not to do it

    So at this point the viewpoint of Iranian Apologist for that one is seeming to be on very thin ice. It was a cock up bas decision pure and simple. And if the Americans had done it and shot down an airliner you guys would be all over their ass

    917:

    Maybe the "black boxes" have a separate power supply and kept on recording voice/data, but I doubt it

    "Depends" appears to be the answer. Cockpit Voice Recorders tend to use solid state storage instead of tape these days and the lower power requirements mean they often have a backup battery so they keep recording after losing external power. Flight Data Recorders are also largely solid state recorders these days and may or may not have internal batteries if they are a separate unit. The CVR and FDR may be combined in a single unit in modern aircraft and that will almost always have internal power available. On the other hand the black boxes are generally at the back of the airframe so if the event cuts the audio and data feeds from the front the post-event recordings will be blank anyway.

    918:

    “closer to excessively applied law enforcement“ American style law enforcement, anyway.

    920:

    From that piece, “We were the first North American media company to commit to science-based targets to limit climate change," Mr Murdoch said. "There are no climate change deniers around, I can assure you. The bolded part at least is a blatant lie. And "science-based" is doing heavy lifting too.

    921:

    Remember that News Limited is an opinion-based organisation not a fact-based one. Truth is not one of their values nor one of their goals. They've told us that repeatedly*.

    So observing that they are not telling the truth is a bit like me above arguing with US propagandists... you can tell yourself you're countering their efforts but it's somewhere between wrestling pigs and masturbation (well, if you're not enjoying it why bother doing it?)

    • I have a boss who loves to send emails and make statements that contain very clear instructions, but when challenged says "you shouldn't take me seriously" and "just ignore anything I say that you can't do". Sometimes he gets angry that I follow his instructions... the latter sort, anyway :)
    922:

    FWIW in Australia they try to pretend:

    we host debates reflecting the political division that exists in Australia about how to address climate change without destroying our economy

    ... which is why they run an incessant stream of material from nihlists and tabloid-style front pages. To be fair (sorry), they do publish critiques by the likes of David Spratt, just on page 50 and the critiques are of Labour rather than their pet idiots.

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2020/jan/15/the-australian-says-it-accepts-climate-science-so-why-does-it-give-a-platform-to-outright-falsehoods

    923:

    Completely off topic, but I think we're far enough in that it's not out of line.

    What do I do about Windows 7.

    I absolutely refuse to have Windows 10 on any computer I own. I won't repeat all the tales of woe and disaster that accompanied my attempts to update to Windows 10, but suffice it to say, it either failed or ran so abysmally on my systems that it's not an option even if they hadn't pissed me off so completely.

    But all the hype surrounding the the end of life-cycle & no more support for Windows 7 does have me worried. I'm not sure what the real risk from continuing to use a "dead" operating system is?

    I use one program that absolutely requires Windows; Adobe Photoshop. What little actual "work" I might ever do is done in Photoshop. I have version CS6 Extended Edition, the last stand-alone version. I don't think Mac is an option now, because AFAIK, you can no longer get the stand-alone versions for any Adobe software and I am not going to install Adobe's ransom-ware "cloud" version of any of their software. I don't use "cloud" versions of ANY software. I don't trust it. But that's a side issue.

    GIMP is NOT a substitute for Photoshop. Trust me, I have tried.

    I know that Linux had a Windows emulator called WINE, but I don't know how well Photoshop will run under it. Plus, I don't think it's really been updated since Windows95. Anyone know different?

    I do have what I think is a good antivirus program, a really good HOSTS file and I'm running NO-Script on my primary browser. I don't have it on my secondary browser because I couldn't get this blog to work with it, and I do enjoy the comments here. If anyone knows what settings I need to implement on NO-Script to get this blog to work, I'd be glad to have the advice.

    My other "vice" is computer games, mainly acquired through Steam. My latest addiction is a game called Arma3, which offers a lot of user supplied content through the Steam Workshops and I'm not sure how secure that is either.

    So that's where I stand. Y'all got any ideas?

    924:

    Vulch @ 917:

    Maybe the "black boxes" have a separate power supply and kept on recording voice/data, but I doubt it

    "Depends" appears to be the answer. Cockpit Voice Recorders tend to use solid state storage instead of tape these days and the lower power requirements mean they often have a backup battery so they keep recording after losing external power. Flight Data Recorders are also largely solid state recorders these days and may or may not have internal batteries if they are a separate unit. The CVR and FDR may be combined in a single unit in modern aircraft and that will almost always have internal power available. On the other hand the black boxes are generally at the back of the airframe so if the event cuts the audio and data feeds from the front the post-event recordings will be blank anyway.

    The New York Times has a new video from a security camera that shows both missile launches. They have boxes on the screen that locate the airliner prior to it bursting into flames and becoming quite visible. It passes out of the frame before it crashes.

    From the angle, the camera was northeast of the launch site, quite nearby and the airliner is coming up from south of the camera position, flying northwest. The video shows the two launches about 23 seconds apart, both to the southeast taking the airliner head-on (or nearly so) It shows both missile strikes and accounts for the gap between the time transponder/radio communication stopped and the time of the missile strike shown in the previous video that was geo-located by Bellingcat.

    The communications failure coincides with the first missile strike.

    BBC News has a story that Iran has arrested the person who made the first video. (the one that shows the second missile strike). The London based Iranian journalist who initially posted the footage says that his "source" is safe, but that may only mean that the person who provided him with the video is not the person who made the video.

    I'm afraid this is all going to come down on low level enlisted personnel or junior officers and upper level officers & politicians won't learn anything from this screw up. Which means that somewhere in the future it's going to happen again. Probably won't happen again soon. Probably won't be Iran next time. But it's going to happen.

    925:

    I absolutely refuse to have Windows 10 on any computer I own.

    I'm biased and not giving proper advice, just what I'd do. (I work in computer security and these views are completely mine and not my employers, and given on my free time.)

    That's somewhat of a problem. My solution for Windows XP, when it lost its support and I still had some software which I wanted to run on it, was to install a Virtualbox virtual machine, and install XP on that. Then I basically did one last upgrade and turned off the network devices. Data transfer is possible through a shared directory.

    The problem is not immediate. It's just that the Windows 7 will not get any updates, but it still has multitude of security holes which might or might not be known to the bad guys (relative to you). Isolating it as well as possible from the Internet would be my priority - I could imagine having one on a real computer completely separate from any Internet connection would be useful. Then at least it's hard to target and even if somebody would get malicious code runnning on it, doing anything with that code would be somewhat difficult.

    Obviously it's a problem if one wants to do something that requires a network connection. I'd probably get myself an another box running Linux (or Mac OS) if I wouldn't touch Windows 10. As it is, I'm fine with Windows 10 and have those virtual machines for things when that's not sufficient (Mostly that XP and some Linux installations).

    Grain of salt, YMMV, HTH, and all that.

    926:

    I use one program that absolutely requires Windows; Adobe Photoshop.

    To some extent you only have one solution: take your windows machine off the network. Or have a firewall set up so that no traffic from the internet can go to or from that machine... but that's a lot of work.

    At work we have a few Win7 machines on their own network for reasons, and we regularly police the "their own network" part because people find it much easier to use those machines if they accessible to everyone.

    What may be an option is to install Win10 then take it off the network/internet. That mitigates some of the worst aspects while allowing you to use hardware that Win7 doesn't support. Maybe not this week, but at some point you will not have hardware that will run Win7 any more.

    The other option is to shove it into a virtual machine. I advise using a cracked Win7 that doesn't ever require activation just to avoid the hassle when subtle bits of the VM change and Win7 may whine about activation. Performance these days is good enough that even at 4k Photoshop should run fine on a VM. What in Win7 days was extortionate is these days affordable... 16GB of RAM, an SSD...

    927:

    What Mac(s) do you have?

    928:

    Plus, I don't think [ Wine ] really been updated since Windows95. Anyone know different?Wine has certainly been updated since Windows95, in fact I'm not even sure it can run all Windows95 programs any more. If you want to know if your program can run under Wine you might like to check out winehq.org.

    930:

    What do I do about Windows 7.

    snip

    I know that Linux had a Windows emulator called WINE, but I don't know how well Photoshop will run under it. Plus, I don't think it's really been updated since Windows95. Anyone know different?

    snip

    My other "vice" is computer games, mainly acquired through Steam. My latest addiction is a game called Arma3, which offers a lot of user supplied content through the Steam Workshops and I'm not sure how secure that is either.

    I'll answer these in reverse order, as Steam (especially since you supplied a single game to work with) has been making big strides in this area. They created an extension to WINE called Proton that went a long ways to making most games Just Work. For most games, you can find how well users have found it, with any work-arounds they found necessary at ProtonDB - here's the Arma3 page: https://www.protondb.com/app/107410. Regarding Steam Workshop, that also Just Works. I have multiple heavily-modded Windows-native games installed where the mods were dealt with entirely through Steam Workshop. (A large part of why I'm so pro-Steam in the Steam vs Epic situation is their investment in this stuff, whereas Epic is dragging its feet investing in its storefront, nevermind the quality of life stuff that doesn't have an immediate dollar sign.)

    Regarding WINE in general, it has been getting steady updates and extensions over the years, even if the default graphics look like they came from Windows 95, as most users care a lot more about what's inside the window than the framing. You may want to keep in mind that WINE is a translation layer, not an emulator. (It's in the name! Wine Is Not an Emulator.)

    For an emulator, you'll want to spin up a virtual machine (and probably isolate it from the internet). This won't perform as well, but it will behave truer (you can probably guess why this approach hasn't taken off with gamers). This approach does require working install media, but given how you describe your situation I assume you have that.

    A bit of googling turned up these: WineHQ - Adobe Photoshop How to install Adobe Photoshop on Linux Note that the second article, while way more recent than I expected, seems to be installing a rather old version.

    931:

    As I've been saying since my late teens, there is no such thing as "common sense", the only thing that's common is stupidity.

    932:

    Moz, re the boss who says "ignore me" - start looking for another job.

    The one professional job I ever had that I have never put on a resume - a scumbag who was VP of DP at a hospital outside of Philly in NJ hired me (while I was still living in Austin, TX), no problem taking a month or so to get to Philly, then, the first week, I was told to work on stuff, and not to worry about the code in assembly, a week later was told, yeah, work on the assembly but I didn't need to change the assembly, the third week I did have to change. This time, I took notes, and had him look at it. The fourth week they let me go.

    On my way back to my mon's, who I was staying with, I realized that he hired me for one reason: to fill out his budget year, and had planned to get rid of me at the end of the fiscal year. Which also explained how folks wouldn't talk about the guy the year before who'd not been there long....

    933:

    Or "the trouble with 'common sense' is that it isn't!"?

    934:

    we host debates reflecting the political division that exists in Australia about how to address climate change without destroying our economy

    Pretty interesting material I found today about this whole situation, but it also brings up a discussion about responsibility. Which is the major issue in modern situation.

    https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/bushfire-scientist-david-packham-warns-of-huge-blaze-threat-urges-increase-in-fuel-reduction-burns-20150312-14259h.html

    Forest fuel levels have worsened over the past 30 years because of "misguided green ideology", vested interests, political failure and mismanagement, creating a massive bushfire threat, a former CSIRO bushfire scientist has warned.

    (Well, not exactly this article, but one that links to that and analyzes the situation.) Anyway, that's the problem we are facing with media in relation to climate change - if you blame everything on climate change as a force of nature, it is a better way to shift responsibility. Another words, beside normal considerations about climate change globally, the catastrophe is mostly caused by human mismanagement. But if you shift all the responsibility on climate change and will fiercely attack anyone who disagrees, it will make possible to blame anybody at all, as long as they are in control.

    I specifically highlight this because there's a similar story about 2011 Fukishima disaster that worked exactly in this manner, while nobody was looking, just last year. It was blamed on unpredictable natural disaster, witch also meant that no human can take complete responsibility. And nuclear industry at large took a large hit and is now on decline, because it is "bad", and for no other reason at all.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/19/business/japan-tepco-fukushima-nuclear-acquitted.html also https://www.reuters.com/article/generalelectric-fukushima-lawsuit/ge-ducks-lawsuit-over-fukushima-disaster-idUSL1N21R1RE

    All in all, bosses are cleared, American corporations are cleared, nobody is going to get punished anymore for the problems in design and management. No, really, that's how it works, and I imagine what this principle is going to leave a mark in the economy if applied every time. I mean, with that amount of mismanagement and diversion you won't need any amount of climate change to affect anyone, just activists themselves will be more than enough.

    935:

    Mikko Parviainen @ 925:

    I absolutely refuse to have Windows 10 on any computer I own.

    Obviously it's a problem if one wants to do something that requires a network connection. I'd probably get myself an another box running Linux (or Mac OS) if I wouldn't touch Windows 10. As it is, I'm fine with Windows 10 and have those virtual machines for things when that's not sufficient (Mostly that XP and some Linux installations).

    I couldn't get Windows 10 to work on three different computers, and the way it all came about made me really angry. I'm angry about it all over again just thinking about it now. I don't like being angry & I try to avoid it whenever possible.

    I endured months of Micro$oft's nagging and when I finally gave in, Windows10 either would not install or would not run or would not allow me to use the programs I want to use.

    On this computer, the only one where Windows10 actually installed, it was sluggish as hell and I could never get "Cortana" to STFU! I spent a week fighting the OS to use the programs I wanted to use before finally giving up & reverting to Windows7.

    On my Photoshop computer after the failed install my Windows7 backup wouldn't restore, so I had to reinstall the OS & all my software from scratch.

    I need an internet connection. Without it there's no point in my having a computer, so either Linux or a Hackentosh is probably going to be the answer.

    936:

    Um, there's a strong undercurrent of "burn it all to stop the threat of wildfire" in the firefighting community, both in the US and in Australia.

    That doesn't mean they're right. The thing to realize is that there's a huge amount of money (in the hundreds of millions to billions) to be made fighting fires. It comes in the form of emergency, no-bid contracts to supply the infrastructure, supplies, housing, and aircraft for firefighting efforts. It also comes in the form of poorly overseen contracts to do massive clearance operations. California just approved their War on Fire-style system (paralleling the Prison-Industrial complex, except to "fight fires") on December 30 of last year.

    I've spent years fighting this in California, not because we don't have fire ecology, but because years of research shows that ramping up the controlled burns and clearances does little to nothing to make homes safer. What does make homes safer is better planning, design, landscaping, and fire hardening. The latter is unsexy home maintenance chores, the former asks cities to forego property tax income in favor of not setting up homeowners to lose their homes in 10-50 years. Since the cities generally do not pay the cost of disasters, they have little incentive to site homes in safer places.

    In the US, you might think that the insurance companies would eventually scream about paying the insurance on homes that are pretty much guaranteed to be destroyed. And they have. The result is that now local politicians are screaming for state and national government insurance of high risk homes, so that the development industry can keep building risky homes, cities can keep getting the property taxes, and taxpayers will pick up the tab for problems. It's literally socializing the risk and privatizing the profits.

    And so it goes.

    937:

    _Moz_ @ 926: What may be an option is to install Win10 then take it off the network/internet. That mitigates some of the worst aspects while allowing you to use hardware that Win7 doesn't support. Maybe not this week, but at some point you will not have hardware that will run Win7 any more.

    The other option is to shove it into a virtual machine. I advise using a cracked Win7 that doesn't ever require activation just to avoid the hassle when subtle bits of the VM change and Win7 may whine about activation. Performance these days is good enough that even at 4k Photoshop should run fine on a VM. What in Win7 days was extortionate is these days affordable... 16GB of RAM, an SSD...

    I don't think you understand the depth of my anger against Micro$oft & Windows10. Windows10 is NOT an option. Windows10 will NEVER be an option. The system that made me angry enough to swear never to use Windows10 is an i7 system with two SSDs & 32GB RAM. Micro$oft had their chance and they blew it.

    938:

    the catastrophe is mostly caused by human mismanagement

    Yes. Often it's exacerbated by further mismanagement.

    As H says, there are parts of the firefighting system who want to burn everything. In Australia we have the complication that only public land is considered for deliberate burns, the other 30-80% of the land is not burned (in theory it can be, by the landowner, but that's very rare outside of remote very large landowners and aboriginal land councils).

    So what we see on the controlled burn maps is that enormous amounts of public land, especially national parks, are burned more often than that land can sustain, while privately owned land is rarely or never burnt deliberately. Instead when a bushfire comes through those landowners jump on the "compensate me for this natural disaster" bandwagon. That's especially so for those who don't have insurance, or have very little insurance.

    This year we have seen an awful lot of areas that were burned last winter, and some that have burned this fire season, burning again. In a few cases areas that had been back-burned caught fire again and the bushfire they were meant to contain went straight through them.

    So it's no longer enough just to run a fire through quickly and burn off the easily-flammable material, you have to burn everything that will burn and ideally salt the earth afterwards so nothing ever grows there again.

    Reading this stuff I keep thinking of the Tacticus quote "they made a desert and called it peace". He meant that as a criticism, by the way. But I see people in Australia right now calling for that in a completely non-ironic, absolutely genuine way. They don't seem to understand that only 30% of Victoria is burnable public land, for example, when they call for all native bush to be burned every year until the bushfires stop. In some cases their calls seem to requite giving the government the obligation, as well as the right, to burn private land and property.

    939:

    David L @ 927: What Mac(s) do you have?

    "Late 2012" Mac Mini - I don't think it's late enough to be the 2014 version. IIRC, I got it in October/November 2013.

    John Hughes @ 928:

    Plus, I don't think [ Wine ] really been updated since Windows95. Anyone know different?

    Wine has certainly been updated since Windows95, in fact I'm not even sure it can run all Windows95 programs any more. If you want to know if your program can run under Wine you might like to check out winehq.org.

    I checked, and it looks like the version of Photoshop I have will run under the more recent Wine builds - will sort of run if I understand the notes. Doesn't seem like any of the listed "known problems" affect functions I know I use.

    It also prompted me to check if there IS a way to swap my stand-alone Windows version of Photoshop to the stand-alone Mac version and that may be an option. My version of Photoshop is 64bit, so if I can swap, the Mac 64bit version should work with the latest OS10.

    940:

    the depth of my anger against Micro$oft & Windows10

    That anger from someone who is absolutely, unconditionally, committed to running a Microsoft OS and rejects even the possibility of not using it... yeah, I don't understand it.

    I set out three options and you're angry about one of them. But you're not grateful, or even willing to discuss, the other options.

    Are you just angry and this is something easy and concrete that you can express anger about?

    941:

    Rabidchaos @ 930: Regarding WINE in general, it has been getting steady updates and extensions over the years, even if the default graphics look like they came from Windows 95, as most users care a lot more about what's inside the window than the framing. You may want to keep in mind that WINE is a translation layer, not an emulator. (It's in the name! Wine Is Not an Emulator.)

    For an emulator, you'll want to spin up a virtual machine (and probably isolate it from the internet). This won't perform as well, but it will behave truer (you can probably guess why this approach hasn't taken off with gamers). This approach does require working install media, but given how you describe your situation I assume you have that.

    A bit of googling turned up these: WineHQ - Adobe Photoshop How to install Adobe Photoshop on Linux Note that the second article, while way more recent than I expected, seems to be installing a rather old version.

    Yeah, that's a problem for me. I don't know enough about Linux to make the distinction about an emulator & I don't really know what questions to ask.

    Those links are helpful. Someone else already pointed me toward winehq.org and I got some information about Photoshop on Wine. The second link looks useful too. That "rather old version" they're trying to install is the version I want to use, so if they can get it to work that's good news for me.

    The main thing is that any "solution" that requires me to disconnect the computer from the internet is NOT a solution, any more than any "solution" that requires Windows10. I'm retired, but the very little bit of work I still occasionally do would not be possible without access to the internet.

    942:

    They don't seem to understand that only 30% of Victoria is burnable public land, for example, when they call for all native bush to be burned every year until the bushfires stop. In some cases their calls seem to requite giving the government the obligation, as well as the right, to burn private land and property.

    Reading by "ecologist" sources in the recent years (not large amount, anyway), I've got the impression that the deforestation and wetland draining that cause major impact on local climate and fires chance, and had to be regulated to prevent further deserting. But it turns out to be entirely opposite, it seems. I assumed that destroying permanent forest as a land clearing for industrial and agricultural use is the major source of problems, like in other parts of the worlds with similar situation. But to imagine that people would burn so much to prevent further fires is a bit unexpected.

    I was only once caught in serious fire situation in the region, and it was very warm and dry summer of 2010. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Russian_wildfires I mean, it was so warm the temperature was above 30C for at least 4 weeks without so much as a drop of rain, and all of the grass burned down in the sun. The forests burned even in the swampy places at the lowlands. There's pretty much nothing that could be done though, besides regular measures of firefighting, and I saw a number of helicopter and planes on duty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIcocHLvIf0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tedkc06D95g

    943:

    What is and is not technically an emulator is probably not going to matter to you. The big context where it makes a difference is competitions based on old hardware (generally speed running games that were built for old consoles) where precisely matching the behaviour of the original machine is key to keeping the results comparable.

    For most Linux users trying to use Windows software, the general flowchart is pretty straightforward: 1. wine $program.exe 2. Experiment with PlayOnLinux or Winetricks or copy the setup someone else found to work. (I don't even know where to begin without following other peoples' footsteps.) 3. Windows VM Things using DirectX 11 or 12 can have an additional couple steps involving proton or dxvk, but I don't think Photoshop does that.

    Anyhow, best of luck!

    944:

    _Moz_ @ 940:

    he depth of my anger against Micro$oft & Windows10

    I set out three options and you're angry about one of them. But you're not grateful, or even willing to discuss, the other options.

    Are you just angry and this is something easy and concrete that you can express anger about?

    I'm angry about one of them, but the other two were not viable options. I've told the Windows10 story here before. I'll try to keep it short ...

    Microsoft's nagware bothered the shit out of me to upgrade. When I finally gave in, the first computer ran a compatibility check and told me This computer cannot be upgraded, there was no video driver & NVIDIA would not provide one for the chipset. I don't know why Windows nagware couldn't it run the compatibility check BEFORE nagging the shit out of me.

    The second computer installed, but Windows10 had Cortana and it had a bunch of Apps like it was a goddamn telephone. Cortana would not SHUT THE FUCK UP. I searched and searched and none of the proposed solutions I found worked. It was like that dancing fucking paperclip on METH! Plus, Windows10 would not let me use the programs I have installed. I tried to start a program and Windows10 would tell me I should use one of its built in Apps instead. It would not take NO for an answer. I could not disable the Apps and I could not disable Windows10 from trying to FORCE me to use those Apps. Plus, it was sluggish as shit; a memory hog.

    And then there is my Photoshop computer. Because it is the one computer I actually use to do any work, I created a Windows7 Recovery Disk and made a backup of my Windows7 installation to an external hard-drive before starting the Windows10 installation. I also created a Windows10 standalone installation disk and downloaded the appropriate Windows10 drivers for my video card and copied them to the folder Micro$oft told me to create on that disk so that the Windows10 installation would find them when it needed them.

    The FIRST Windows10 download was sluggish as hell. It took something like 35 hours to download & configure itself before failing at "first boot". That's 35 hours I can't use my work computer. I didn't sit there and watch it for the whole 35 hours. After an hour or so I went about my business & checked back periodically to see if there was any progress.

    After the install failed, I went on line and searched Micro$oft's support for possible solutions. On one of the forums, I found a note that said to look for two files in the installation folder on the hard-drive. I couldn't find those files, they hadn't been created, but I noticed the install log had a lot of fail entries for missing files, so I made a new Widows10 standalone install disk. The SECOND download & install took more than 48 hours. And again, I'd go off and mess with trying to straighten out this computer while the download was running on the Photoshop computer and go in there every so often to check on progress.

    The SECOND download & install did finally make it to first boot, but defaulted to generic VGA; couldn't find the Windows10 video drivers even though they were right there in the directory where Micro$oft told me to put them. The mouse pointer was incredibly slow to respond. I could move the mouse and MINUTES LATER the pointer would move across the screen. It was almost completely uncontrollable, but by nudging the mouse and waiting to see the response I was finally able to get the pointer moved over the [Start] button, but it took several repetitions to get a menu because the mouse would move microscopically when I tried to click the button. I still couldn't select anything from the menu because it would time out and close before I could get the pointer moved to where I could make a selection.

    I just gave up. I booted from the Windows7 Recovery Disk and connected the external hard-drive with my backup. Windows Backup/Restore could not recognize the backup I had made. I ended up having to install Windows7 from the original Install DVD and reinstall all of my software, Photoshop & the other programs I use for work. Fortunately I kept my data disk disconnected during this fiasco, so I didn't lose any of my images or editing work.

    Meanwhile, on this computer, I'm still struggling to get Cortana to STFU! and let me use the programs I want to use instead of the goddamn Apps. The only part of the whole experience that actually worked was the "Revert" function that brought this computer back to Windows7. That did finally shut Cortana up.

    Now they want to take away the OS that I can actually use and force me to use that worthless piece of shit. And now you know why I get so angry just thinking about it.

    945:
    Windows10 is NOT an option. Windows10 will NEVER be an option.

    If Windows 10 is not an option then Windows is not an option. Windows 10 is the only nearly safe version of Windows that exists.

    946:

    If you want to use Windows you use the Windows Microsoft sell. All the rest of your post is just bad for your mental and physical health. (And mine, I have hypertension, I didn't dare read all of your post).

  • Do not use Windows 7. You will be fucked if you do.

  • If you must use Windows, use Windows 10. Buy a computer with it installed. Welcome apps, apps are your future.

  • As far as I understand it, same deal with MacOS.

  • If you don't want either of those, use Linux. Accept that running "big name" stuff like photoshop will involve some technical difficulty. You are an early mammal running around under the feet of the dinosaurs. Is that an asteroid coming? We don't know yet.

  • 947:

    "I don't know enough about Linux to make the distinction about an emulator"

    That is not a required precondition for that purpose. It's more or less like this:

    Windows is Chinese. WINE tells your computer how to speak Chinese. An emulator enables your computer to pretend to be Chinese. A virtual machine is a little bubble of warped space in your computer inside which you're actually in China.

    I've never had a lot of luck with WINE. That it makes programs for later versions of Windows look like they're running on Windows 95 isn't a problem - that of itself does not confuse the program, and it's one less thing for me to get confused by. The problem is that it always sooner or later comes across some nuance of Chinese dialect which it either mistranslates as "my nose is a horse's bottom" or fails to translate at all, at which point calamity results. There is also a rough correlation between how much the program you're trying to run is supposed to cost and how soon it falls over.

    Admittedly I last did try it a long time ago and I think the latest version of Windows it supported at that time was XP, so it might be better now, but on the other hand it's chasing a moving target so it might also not be. I can't remember whether it claimed at the time to be able to run Photoshop, but I do remember that it couldn't.

    The only Windows program I ever need to run these days, and that very rarely, is Turbocad. I have a mate who uses it and occasionally forgets how to make it export files in a format readable by other things and then emails me a file in its native format which nothing else can read, and I no longer live close enough to him to go round and look at it in the original. WINE will not run Turbocad, so I use a virtual machine when this happens.

    I have a virtualbox instance set up using a cracked copy of Windows 7 that never needs activation. The instance is configured not to have a network adapter, so there is no way for Windows to talk to the internet. But there is a shared virtual disk volume that both the virtualbox instance and the host machine have access to. So I just save my mate's emailed file from my normal email client on the host machine onto the shared volume, and then open that saved file from Turbocad in the virtual Windows 7 instance. Apart from needing to save it in a specific place, this is of course exactly the same as I'd be doing to open an emailed file with a program that ran natively on the host machine anyway.

    What operating system is on the host machine doesn't matter as long as there's a virtualbox version for it. In my case it's Linux but there are Windows, Mac and Solaris versions as well.

    My host hardware is a K10 with 8 cores at 3.7GHz, 32GB RAM, the OS on SSD and the data on spinning disk. This is plenty of wellie for the virtual Windows 7 instance to run just fine and not be noticeable that it's virtualised. Your machine that won't run Windows 10 should likewise have plenty of wellie.

    948:

    I've got the impression that the deforestation and wetland draining that cause major impact on local climate and fires chance, and had to be regulated

    That's the case in almost all the world. In a few places, mostly parts of Canada, Siberia and Australia, once the climate warms a certain amount huge areas of forest that did not burn in the past start to burn. That's a positive feedback problem - the new burning releases CO2 that causes further warming.

    Australia is a big place and while there is a lot of forest and brush that was traditionally burnt at a 5-10 year interval, there's also a lot of rainforest that has never burned (well, since Chicxulub anyway). Wollemi pines, for example, have been around for 60M years and are not fire tolerant.

    This summer's fires have already emitted about 60% of Australia's annual CO2 emissions. We may well get to 100%. But those missions don't count for the IPCC/Paris agreement targets (because they're not caused by humans or something).

    One other bit of Australian bullshit is that we have a lot of carry-over credits from the Kyoto agreement because our baseline year had a lot of landclearing so direct emissions from that were very high. Even by Australian standards. If you don't count those credits and the ongoing changes to landclearing our emissions are going up and seem set to continue to go up. But landclearing is reducing (as much because of lack of land to clear/money to clear land as because of anything greenies have done).

    https://www.dpaw.wa.gov.au/management/fire/fire-and-the-environment/41-traditional-aboriginal-burning

    The nihilists in Australia are numerous, get a lot of media coverage, and are quite diverse. So it's easy enough for the denialist media etc to find the right nihilist for any occasion. That's why you're seeing coverage of the "firemen for lighting fires" right now, but other times you'll see "nuclear power is the only option" or "coal is good for humanity" etc.

    949:

    The main thing is that any "solution" that requires me to disconnect the computer from the internet is NOT a solution, any more than any "solution" that requires Windows10. I'm retired, but the very little bit of work I still occasionally do would not be possible without access to the internet.

    Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. You can get the "Windows 7 disconnected from the Internet" and an Internet connection at the same time in many ways.

    One way is to use the virtual machine approach. Have a Linux installed on your real-hardware computer, set up networking on that. Then install Virtualbox, create a virtual machine in that and install the Windows 7 on it. Be sure to turn off the virtual networking from that computer. Set up a directory on the Linux which you use to transfer files between the host (the Linux) and the virtual computer (the Windows 7).

    The other way is to have two computers, one of which is a Linux computer, and connects to the Internet, the other is the one running Windows 7 and never connected to the Internet. Data transfer might be for example USB sticks (there are risks but mostly not).

    Both of these are somewhat of a hassle as you need to switch between the Photoshop platform and the Internet platform, but in this way you can have that Windows 7 running without Internet, and still have connectivity.

    There are other ways of doing this stuff, but they get fast into the level of "Enterprise solutions" and are trickier to implement even when somebody is paid to do them. The virtual box thing is what I use at home.

    950:

    In my worth-less-than-a-surreal-infinitesimal-number-opinion a novel that further fleshes out a world as interesting as the Laundry Files has become is a worthwhile "Laundry Files novel".

    (I was surprised to learn that the idea of related stories occupying the same "universe" with a main character in one appearing in a minor role in another, giving the reader the impression that the series of related stories and those characters felt like they had some whole independent world to themselves, wasn't an ancient one as fictional ideas go but was probably introduced by Balzac, so far as Western literature is concerned. (Greek plays don't really count since they probably weren't thought of as -fiction- exactly, with some exceptions like Lucian of Samosata's jokingly-titled "This is a True Story"... anyway...)

    951:

    THERE ARE people still runningn the only really good version of Windows there was, that I was reluctant to leave .... Windows XP But, their systems are isolated from the main net. Network Rail's signalling systms mostly run on XP, apparently

    952:
    THERE ARE people still runningn the only really good version of Windows there was, that I was reluctant to leave .... Windows XP But, their systems are isolated from the main net. Network Rail's signalling systms mostly run on XP, apparently

    Ah, yes, the Iranian solution.

    Hope they have an appropriate amount of epoxy in all the USB ports.

    Stuxnet may still be out there...

    953:

    Well yes but we're using genuine private networks, as in the only connections those machines have are to other nodes on the same server. It's not a solution if you "need internet access", quite the reverse in that we need security for these machines and do not need wider web access for them.

    We also have "office machines" available, which have web access etc, Windows and Office 10, but can not be used on the private networks.

    954:

    an appropriate amount of epoxy in all the USB ports

    None? Not trolling, but there are blanking plates for USB ports available that can be just "plugged in". When/if the machine is declassified (may involve removing hard drive) they can be plugged out, making the USB available again.

    955:

    Well, in certain situations the fact that removing epoxy from the USB port is somewhat more difficult than removing a blanking plate is a good thing. In this way you can't accidentally remove the protection and plug something in.

    956:

    You can't accidentally remove the blanking plates either; it requires removing the case.

    957:

    I could argue that it's pretty hard to accidentally insert a USB stick, too. I agree that in most cases something less drastic than the epoxy is enough, and having to open the case is a good hindrance. However, there are situations where the easiest and cheapest way of ensuring nobody ever uses those USB ports is to epoxy them shut (it's cheaper to buy off-the-shelf computers than build ones without USB ports) and then destroy all the hardware when it's not needed anymore.

    No, this is not common, and if you need to do this, you should know it already.

    958:

    It's actually quite easy to "accidentally use a USB", for values that mean "use the port without thinking" when they're a normal means of file transfer between networks.

    959:

    @923: I feel your pain. I foolishly gave in to the MS nagware for my rather expensive gaming computer during the "transition period"; the installation failed, and even taking it to a known IT specialist only got it to the limping stage. When the video card failed (probably due to overheating), I just set the $1200 USD machine aside, and vowed that my older Win 7 computer, bought in 2010, would NEVER see Win 10. That machine has run reliably and without complaint to this day, greatly aided by an upgrade to SSD in 2016. I now seem to have the unavoidable requirement to buy an entirely new Win 10 desktop and move/buy programs and move data. This is annoyingly very similar to the circumstance where my iPad Mini, which functions in hardware as well as it did when new, simply would not be updated by Apple any more; applications on the tablet grew increasingly unreliable.

    I did buy a Win 10 laptop to replace a much older laptop in 2017; it has been trouble-free. The lesson I drew from this is NEVER "upgrade" an OS. The only success I had doing that was going from Windows ME to XP.

    I have sitting idle Win XP and Win 98 machines that probably still function, and run programs I would like to access, but the work involved in setting them up and maintaining them keeps those tasks too far down my to do list.

    As small computing hardware and software has matured, the overall failure rate seems to have decreased (I'd be interested in hearing about any hard data); therefore planned obsolescence is what's keeping the saturated PC market alive.

    960:

    Pigeon @ 947:

    "I don't know enough about Linux to make the distinction about an emulator"

    That is not a required precondition for that purpose. It's more or less like this:

    Windows is Chinese.
    WINE tells your computer how to speak Chinese.
    An emulator enables your computer to pretend to be Chinese.
    A virtual machine is a little bubble of warped space in your computer inside which you're actually in China.

    OK! You know that's about the clearest I've ever had something like that explained to me.

    I've never had a lot of luck with WINE. That it makes programs for later versions of Windows look like they're running on Windows 95 isn't a problem - that of itself does not confuse the program, and it's one less thing for me to get confused by. The problem is that it always sooner or later comes across some nuance of Chinese dialect which it either mistranslates as "my nose is a horse's bottom" or fails to translate at all, at which point calamity results. There is also a rough correlation between how much the program you're trying to run is supposed to cost and how soon it falls over.

    Direct or inverse correlation?

    Admittedly I last did try it a long time ago and I think the latest version of Windows it supported at that time was XP, so it might be better now, but on the other hand it's chasing a moving target so it might also not be. I can't remember whether it claimed at the time to be able to run Photoshop, but I do remember that it couldn't.

    According to vinehq.com (or whatever it was someone else pointed me to, it can ... sort of can ...

    I still have original media for WindowsXP & if memory serves it's the 64-bit Pro version. I liked XP. It was easy for me to get work done on XP. I originally ran Photoshop on XP, but I think I was already at Windows7 by the time I made the final upgrade to CS6 Extended.

    The only Windows program I ever need to run these days, and that very rarely, is Turbocad. I have a mate who uses it and occasionally forgets how to make it export files in a format readable by other things and then emails me a file in its native format which nothing else can read, and I no longer live close enough to him to go round and look at it in the original. WINE will not run Turbocad, so I use a virtual machine when this happens.

    I have a virtualbox instance set up using a cracked copy of Windows 7 that never needs activation. The instance is configured not to have a network adapter, so there is no way for Windows to talk to the internet. But there is a shared virtual disk volume that both the virtualbox instance and the host machine have access to. So I just save my mate's emailed file from my normal email client on the host machine onto the shared volume, and then open that saved file from Turbocad in the virtual Windows 7 instance. Apart from needing to save it in a specific place, this is of course exactly the same as I'd be doing to open an emailed file with a program that ran natively on the host machine anyway.

    Here's where it's getting a little fuzzy. The virtual copy of Windows does not have a network adapter, but the actual machine that runs the virtual copy of Windows does? And what do I have to do to my copy of Windows7 to "crack" it so it's going to work?

    What operating system is on the host machine doesn't matter as long as there's a virtualbox version for it. In my case it's Linux but there are Windows, Mac and Solaris versions as well.

    My host hardware is a K10 with 8 cores at 3.7GHz, 32GB RAM, the OS on SSD and the data on spinning disk. This is plenty of wellie for the virtual Windows 7 instance to run just fine and not be noticeable that it's virtualised. Your machine that won't run Windows 10 should likewise have plenty of wellie.

    That may be what I have to do.

    I'm also exploring switching to Mac. It used to be easy, they'd let you cross over from one platform to another just by deactivating your old version before activating a new version. But they won't let you do that for stand-alone versions any more. They want to force you to pay for their ransom rental versions.

    I found a retail (shrink-wrap) copy of the stand-alone "Photoshop CS6 Extended Mac" for sale, but it's on "Big River dot CA" and for some reason there's a problem with shipping to the U.S. (although the listing says it ships FROM Florida). Go figure.

    961:

    @960: I found a retail (shrink-wrap) copy of the stand-alone "Photoshop CS6 Extended Mac" for sale, but it's on "Big River dot CA" and for some reason there's a problem with shipping to the U.S. (although the listing says it ships FROM Florida). Go figure.

    Given the geographic diversity of the group here, you might find someone who can help you out with transshipping. Sadly, I'm in Virginia, so no help here.

    962:

    Mikko Parviainen @ 949:

    The main thing is that any "solution" that requires me to disconnect the computer from the internet is NOT a solution, any more than any "solution" that requires Windows10. I'm retired, but the very little bit of work I still occasionally do would not be possible without access to the internet.

    Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. You can get the "Windows 7 disconnected from the Internet" and an Internet connection at the same time in many ways.

    One way is to use the virtual machine approach. Have a Linux installed on your real-hardware computer, set up networking on that. Then install Virtualbox, create a virtual machine in that and install the Windows 7 on it. Be sure to turn off the virtual networking from that computer. Set up a directory on the Linux which you use to transfer files between the host (the Linux) and the virtual computer (the Windows 7).

    Pigeon was explaining that @ 947, and I think I'm beginning to get a grasp of it. Don't know how to do it yet, but I'm beginning to understand the concept.

    The other way is to have two computers, one of which is a Linux computer, and connects to the Internet, the other is the one running Windows 7 and never connected to the Internet. Data transfer might be for example USB sticks (there are risks but mostly not).

    Did that for years before I wired the house for Ethernet. You're right, it is a hassle, which is why I wired the house for Ethernet. Now I use a NAS box to transfer files between computers.

    The Photoshop computer was built ONLY for editing with Photoshop. I do have a web browser & "office" software on it, but they are only there to support Photoshop. I use the web browser when I need to find a tutorial & learn how to do something in Photoshop and the "office" software lets me write instructions to myself based on those tutorials, so I'll have the procedure handy next time I want to use it.

    I just wouldn't be able to do that running on "sneaker net", watching tutorials in here and then running into the other room to try it out in Photoshop. And I do occasionally still need to use FTP from that computer to receive or send "work" files (DNG, TIF & JPG) instead of sending/receiving with this computer.

    Could you run the virtual Windows7 in a window? ... letting Photoshop run "full screen" in the virtual window, and have the rest of your "desktop" available a mouse click away? And switch between the virtual Windows7 & host OS that way?

    On THIS computer, I don't think there's any software I use that's not available in native Linux versions, so this one will be the first I switch over ... although, I may just build a new "goof off on the internet computer" (I'm pretty sure I have enough spare parts on hand to build at least one computer) and install Linux there so I don't risk screwing up anything I want to keep on this machine. Once I have it up and running, I'll know better what I'm going to have to do to manage the migration.

    Both of these are somewhat of a hassle as you need to switch between the Photoshop platform and the Internet platform, but in this way you can have that Windows 7 running without Internet, and still have connectivity.

    There are other ways of doing this stuff, but they get fast into the level of "Enterprise solutions" and are trickier to implement even when somebody is paid to do them. The virtual box thing is what I use at home.

    I looked for Linux training. I need to learn how to do this. The local community college & public schools all have extension classes for Windows and/or Mac - 8 two hour classes, 8 weeks, $80 - the very first computer classes I took were like that, but since it was back when it was only DOS & Apple was still only available as a kit it was only something like $25. I do fairly well with that kind of hands on instruction.

    The only Linux classes I've found so far are "Enterprise" level classes with "Enterprise" level tuition ... a 4 day "Linux Basics" class costs over $2,000 per person.

    963:

    Greg Tingey @ 951: THERE ARE people still runningn the only really good version of Windows there was, that I was reluctant to leave .... Windows XP
    But, their systems are isolated from the main net.
    Network Rail's signalling systms mostly run on XP, apparently

    I know that for years and years after IBM "officially" dropped OS/2 development bank ATM networks were still running OS/2. I once had an ATM go down in the middle of a transaction (severe thunderstorm) & saw the familiar boot screen when it came back up. It cancelled the transaction, but I had to go back the next day while that branch was open to retrieve my ATM card.

    I'm pretty sure WindowsXP was simply the Windows95 GUI ported to WindowsNT 4.0, which was the actual last "really good version of Windows". In fact, WindowsNT 4.0 may have been the ONLY "really good version of Windows" that ever was.

    964:

    Mikko Parviainen @ 957: I could argue that it's pretty hard to accidentally insert a USB stick, too. I agree that in most cases something less drastic than the epoxy is enough, and having to open the case is a good hindrance. However, there are situations where the easiest and cheapest way of ensuring nobody ever uses those USB ports is to epoxy them shut (it's cheaper to buy off-the-shelf computers than build ones without USB ports) and then destroy all the hardware when it's not needed anymore.

    No, this is not common, and if you need to do this, you should know it already.

    The U.S. Army used to do it for computers on the "secure" network. When those computers were "decommissioned" you had to use special software to wipe the hard-drive (write '1' to every bit on the drive, then go back and write '0' to every bit; repeat 7 times), and after that you had to physically destroy the hard-drive; open the case and smash the platter into little bitty pieces with a hammer.

    965:

    Dave P @ 959: I did buy a Win 10 laptop to replace a much older laptop in 2017; it has been trouble-free. The lesson I drew from this is NEVER "upgrade" an OS. The only success I had doing that was going from Windows ME to XP.

    THIS computer has been in continuous use since the early 90s ... for values of "this computer" meaning it's had every part in it replaced several times without quite actually building a completely new computer from scratch. Incremental upgrades all along the way. The first iteration did not even have a CD-ROM drive. No USB until Windows98.

    It started out with PC DOS 3.3, went to PC DOS 6.3 + Windows 3.0 ... PC DOS 7.0 + Windows 3.1, OS/2 3.0 "Warp" and back to PC DOS 7.0 & Windows for Workgroups 3.11 ... OS/2 4.0 "Merlin", Windows95, Windows98, Windows98SE, WindowsNT 4.0, WindowsXP and finally Windows7. Dial-up internet, then ADSL - then no internet when it sat there for a year & a half while I was overseas with the Army; cable internet since I got home.

    I never had a problem with an OS upgrade until the abomination that is Windows10.

    966:

    JBS WinNT was very good, but, when USB ports & sticks (etc) came in it couldn't/wouldn't hande them AT ALL ... Hence the delayed move to XP.

    967:

    Many years ago, I heard a story in Dallas. A local company had their customer support bulletin board system running on OS/2. The machine was sitting in a closet somewhere in their building. They'd closed the doors on the closet four years earlier, and the machine had been wholly untouched by human hands since that day. No hiccups, no problems, no nothing. OS/2 just worked.

    968:

    What do you need to know about working in Linux?

    I don't remember if you have my real email, but you can go to my writer website ( mrw.5-cent.us ) and use the link to get me.

    969:

    Well, about NT... it had a problem with networking. Really. REALLY.

    Fall of '95, I was working for Ameritech, and among the mostly consultants, I was a) an employee, and b) the "senior technical analyst". One of the consultants came to me - he'd spent hours or a PowerPoint (gag), and then went to save it. He'd just hit yes, and now his machine was hung.

    I checked with the networking people, to make sure I wasn't going to croak a bunch of people (I'd worked somewhere that it was a daisychain)... and then I walked up to the consultant's PC and pulled the ethernet cable.

    30 sec later (I adore NMI (non-maskable interrupts) the machine perked up, and said "I can't talk to the network, would you like to save it locally?". We did, and then he transferred it to the net.

    Probably NT 3.5, not sure if we got to 4.0.

    970:

    Things changed. With the tech used now for data storage on h/d, seven passes makes is really and truly unreadable. In fact, since, oh, maybe '12 or '14, three passes will do. Seven is DoD 5022.2 (I think it was) which I did using DBAN (nice utility). Boot from it.

    If your drive is actually dead, then it's either deGauss it, or take it apart and mangle the platters.

    Ah, my last job, where they bought a new fancy-schmancy deGausser, could do two at a time... except for the ancient full-height drives, which wouldn't fit, which meant take them apart....

    I think I've got one of the magnets here, somewhere, and from one SCSI drive, I made a nice mobile for my granddaughter from the platters....

    971:

    One of the consultants came to me - he'd spent hours or a PowerPoint (gag), and then went to save it. He'd just hit yes, and now his machine was hung. I'm sorry, but why does he get sympathy for "Death by PowerPoint"? I've yet to see a PowerPoint that couldn't be done better as a Word document!!

    972:

    "Direct or inverse correlation?"

    The Murphy default, of course...

    "Here's where it's getting a little fuzzy. The virtual copy of Windows does not have a network adapter, but the actual machine that runs the virtual copy of Windows does?"

    The actual machine does, but the virtual machine doesn't.

    You get a window where you can configure the various bits and pieces the virtual machine pretends to have: http://filehost.serveftp.net/pic/vm-config.png As you can see, the network is "Disabled", so as far as the guest OS on the virtual machine is concerned it just doesn't have a network adapter.

    (Alternatively it can be set to pretend to have a few different common types of network card. These have nothing to do with whatever kind of network card the real machine has - they're just things which can be easily and reliably pretended. They are not talking to the real network at all; the "thing on the other end of the wire" is another pretend network adapter on the real machine, and what it's all doing is letting the real machine and the virtual machine talk to each other over their own private network. To let the virtual machine talk to the actual internet means you also have to set the real machine up to pass the traffic on. Not doing that is effectively a second belt-and-braces layer of isolation.)

    Note also the existence of a Shared Folder, which both the real and the virtual machines can see so you can transfer files back and forth using it.

    "And what do I have to do to my copy of Windows7 to "crack" it so it's going to work?"

    I just did a search for a suitable torrent. Yeah, yeah, but having a legit copy too plus it being EOLed anyway I can't see anyone's going to give a shit. The important disadvantage is you can't be sure whoever cracked it didn't also put something unpleasant in there, but then isolating it in a virtual machine with no network means it wouldn't actually be able to do anything anyway.

    "Could you run the virtual Windows7 in a window? ... letting Photoshop run "full screen" in the virtual window, and have the rest of your "desktop" available a mouse click away? And switch between the virtual Windows7 & host OS that way?"

    Sure. It looks like this: http://filehost.serveftp.net/pic/vm-running.png http://filehost.serveftp.net/pic/vm-running-turbocad.png You can switch between the different windows exactly the same as normal.

    "The U.S. Army used to do it for computers on the "secure" network. When those computers were "decommissioned"..."

    A long time ago, before cocktails and skateboards and John Travolta, someone bought a couple of hard drives from a local surplus shop. Turned out they had come from the local government secret research centre. Since the machines they were out of weren't supposed to be "secure" ones, someone hadn't thought you needed to do all that stuff. The bosses disagreed, and proceeded to have kittens.

    973:

    Re USB.

    These days, keyboards and mice are USB. If you don't epoxy the keyboard and mouse into the machine the user can simply unplug them and plug in something else. That something else could be physically a keyboard or a mouse, but internally be something quite different that carries any load. It would be as simple as mailing a Trojan mouse or ten to every office. The users will simply open the boxes and plug them in. Mail them a wireless keyboard and mouse. They need a little charging dock, so they'll plug that into the mains. Now you can exfiltrate data via the powerlines. The computer and any network it's on completely pwned.

    974:

    Hope they have an appropriate amount of epoxy in all the USB ports.

    Some companies do this on brand new computers. With locks on the keyboard and/or mouse cables, bluetooth disabled, and so on.

    Mainly in financial operations and such. I'm thinking that TLA's do it a lot but the people who I could ask might not be allowed to answer.

    975:

    How's this. A virtual setup is like the Matrix (the movie). What the people (OS) inside it see is whatever you want them (it) to see.

    976:

    The only Linux classes I've found so far are "Enterprise" level classes

    I KNOW you are on Meetup. Or your were.

    Go here. Attend a meeting. Ask for help. They will be glad to bring you into the cult, err, group of knowledgeable computer users.

    https://www.meetup.com/trilug/

    978:

    I looked for Linux training. I need to learn how to do this. These days most Linuxes are downright friendly. While most have little quirks* to get used to, some take great pains to mimic the Windows UI to make transition easier. The biggest stumbling block to general usage (web browsing, email, and office docs that don't need to be bug-level compatible with MS Office) is threefold: the old reputation, fear of / unwillingness to change*, and a preponderance of choices that involve a new vocabulary.

    Where Windows is Windows is (WTF is Windows RT?) and MacOS is MacOS is MacOS, Linux is a bazaar of multilayered cross-hatchings fractally exploring orthagonal means of improving the desktop experience. Thankfully, most of those can be ignored in favour of two dimensions: Distro and Desktop. Distributions (aka distros) determine what software gets installed how, while Desktop environments (aka spins aka flavours) handle the graphical look and feel.

    As far as distros are concerned, there are two big families: Red Hat (Fedora, RHEL, and CentOS) and Debian (you may have heard of Ubuntu), and many, many smaller families and singletons. Arch is for when you want to learn the ins and outs of Linux the hard way (and get the cutting-edgiest stuff), and as a result, their wiki is a superb resource, no matter what distro you end up with. I would recommend either Fedora or Ubuntu, as these are both widely used.

    In terms of desktops, both Fedora and Ubuntu default to Gnome, but they both make other versions available: ( and Ubuntu Flavours). I would recommend trying these as Live images until you find one you are comfortable with, as there is no 'right answer', just what fits you.

    Speaking of live images, unlike Windows (and I have no idea about Mac), Linux install media normally comes in the form of a Live image, which lets you boot into a full version of the OS that happens to live on either a CD or a USB stick. From there, installing is a prominent option, but by no means the only thing available. Whether you boot it up to play around in or to rescue the normal operating system that is currently doing a brick impression, these are handy tools to keep in mind. Outside of running the OS installer or explicitly doing things to your drives, nothing you do will persist on your host computer.

    As a result, my personal recommendation is to download Fedora Media Writer (a tool to set up bootable USBs) and try running Fedora** to see what it's like.

    • I use Gnome, so whenever I want to switch tasks, my mouse is at the top left corner before I remember the Windows hotkeys.

    ** I can spout about perl's similar issues with old reputation being unrepresentative of modern usage. There's a book on it. Not mine, but I heartily agree with it.

    *Everybody has these for most things. It just happens to be a different 'most' for every person.

    **I'm biased towards the RH family because that's what I grew up using. Given that they're both defaulting to Gnome these days, I suspect you won't have strong opinions on Fedora vs Ubuntu if you try them back to back.

    979:

    Just to clarify about Linux UIs: remember Windows 3? (The first version that anyone actually used.) It ran on top of DOS. Windows crashed, oh, well, restart Windows, and all you've lost is anything running in foreground.

    Then M$ made the most mind-bogglingly STUPID software decision ever, and put the UI inside the o/s, so if Windows crashed, your system was hosed.

    Linux, another version of Unix, was built as multiuser from the ground up. You do not EVER let the system crash when one user's UI crashes.

    X-windows sits on top of the o/s, it's not part of it. It serves the windowing system. On top of that is the windowing manager, which is the UI.

    Now, that being said, Gnome, KDE, mate, FVWM, etc are all window managers, so you can choose what you want your interface to look and feel like.

    Personally, I loathe Gnome (can you say 'bloatware'? and runs a ton of stuff to support itself, including stuff I have never needed or used, like nepomuk). But it's Nix, and so you have *choice.

    Btw, FVWMw does not, they say, stand for the feeble virtual window manager, nor does it look like Win 95 or so....

    But, really, normal users will install the whole system, including a UI, and you don't really need to open xterms (ignore that I'm typing this with five open in the background of the window), and it's mouse and keyboard for you.

    980:

    Could be interesting with regard to endless home computer problems, to find out how much is just marketing strategies like planned obsolescence, which have been around in the car biz since the 1950s, and how much is relatively new based on security worries like Huawei having a back door to U.S. government and corporate secrets. Microsoft getting the ten billion dollar Defense Dept. cloud service contract recently, instead of Amazon, might be about more than just Trump's vendetta against the Washington Post. If my suspicion is realistic, then maybe before Windows 10 does an install, first it surveys the hardware for loopholes and rejects any it doesn't recognize. So a system that's been continually upgraded since the 90s like JBS described might be similar to a house in Iowa I rented for a year back in 1978, it was Civil War vintage but looked new on the outside and much of the inside. Then when I inspected the air vents I could see hand hewn timbers under the floorboards with gaps big enough for the cat to get in and out. One night a tomcat followed her back inside and she shrieked like a soul of the damned in torment. When I got up to check it out, the intruder just jumped back the way it came in.

    981:

    paws4thot @ 971:

    One of the consultants came to me - he'd spent hours or a PowerPoint (gag), and then went to save it. He'd just hit yes, and now his machine was hung.

    I'm sorry, but why does he get sympathy for "Death by PowerPoint"? I've yet to see a PowerPoint that couldn't be done better as a Word document!!

    It would depend on who made the decision to use PowerPoint ... and why? If you are required to use PowerPoint because it's mandated from above, you deserve sympathy. If you are not required to use PowerPoint, but choose to do so anyway, you should burn in hell.

    I'll reserve my sympathy for the devil.

    982:

    Oh & STFU about "the royal family", huh? Not even wrong.

    Eat my shit. Half the time I learn something weird about the UK it's because of the unnatural affinity for inbreeding that so many of you still hold in high regard. Once you have a family that has its own Navy, you don't get to complain about sensible people wondering if they're involved in everything else that's a bit funny about the UK as well. Instead of whining that modern countries have noticed how backwards and incoherent your government is, how about you take a seat and join the 21st century instead.

    983:

    David L @ 976:

    The only Linux classes I've found so far are "Enterprise" level classes

    I KNOW you are on Meetup. Or your were.

    Go here. Attend a meeting. Ask for help. They will be glad to bring you into the cult, err, group of knowledgeable computer users.

    https://www.meetup.com/trilug/

    Yeah, that's how I found the Triangle Mac User's Group, but funny thing ... Meetup wants me to enter my user id & password and I don't have a record of having a Meetup User ID & password ??? So if I don't have them, how did I get to TMUG?

    It's no big deal to create a new user ID & password, but I have so many I always record them in a secret place in case I forget them. So it's a mystery why I don't have a record of the one for Meetup & y'all know how those kind of little mysteries can drive me crazy.

    984:

    "Instead of whining that modern countries have noticed how backwards and incoherent your government is, how about you take a seat and join the 21st century instead."

    <snort>

    Observations about the validity of insults based on relative albedo among kitchen utensils spring to mind...

    We don't have a family with its own Navy. That wasn't even accurate in Henry VIII's time, although it was far closer than it is now. We have a concept called "the Crown" which is to the structure of Britain as / is to a Unix filesystem, but it has not a great deal more to do with the actual Queen than a hard drive has with a tree. "Royal" means a variety of things and often not much, but the more important the thing it's applied to the closer it is related to the Crown rather than the Queen; in the case of the Navy, pretty much entirely so.

    What we do have is a system of organisation which gets criticised by Americans based on an antagonistically propagandist view of monarchy which fossilised in 1776 and was out of date even then, and/or by Europeans (including some British ones) based on political theories about monarchy which were developed in countries that handled it very differently and which get misapplied under the assumption that their spatially and temporally localised context is generalisable without change to the whole of past and future human history. This often manifests as supercilious remarks delivered with an unshakeable attitude of vast and smug superiority which bear no recognisable connection to the real situation and serve only to convey that the speaker hasn't got a fucking clue what they're talking about. It gets kind of wearing sometimes.

    What the monarch basically is is a PR tool in the form of a non-political head of state. They're cheaper to run than a president and they have the great advantage that at least those they're PRing to understand that they don't do anything and any beef one may have with Britain is not their fault but those fearsome wankers in Parliament. The existence of the monarchy functions simply as something to moor Britain to, with the same required characteristics as a mooring bollard of being an inert lump that sits there and does nothing, and seemingly also sharing the characteristic of occasionally being mistaken for a Dalek by people who don't know about bollards.

    985:

    Rabidchaos @ 978:

    "I looked for Linux training. I need to learn how to do this."

    These days most Linuxes are downright friendly. While most have little quirks* to get used to, some take great pains to mimic the Windows UI to make transition easier. The biggest stumbling block to general usage (web browsing, email, and office docs that don't need to be bug-level compatible with MS Office) is threefold: the old reputation, fear of / unwillingness to change*, and a preponderance of choices that involve a new vocabulary.

    Where Windows is Windows is (WTF is Windows RT?) and MacOS is MacOS is MacOS, Linux is a bazaar of multilayered cross-hatchings fractally exploring orthagonal means of improving the desktop experience. Thankfully, most of those can be ignored in favour of two dimensions: Distro and Desktop. Distributions (aka distros) determine what software gets installed how, while Desktop environments (aka spins aka flavours) handle the graphical look and feel.

    As far as distros are concerned, there are two big families: Red Hat (Fedora, RHEL, and CentOS) and Debian (you may have heard of Ubuntu), and many, many smaller families and singletons. Arch is for when you want to learn the ins and outs of Linux the hard way (and get the cutting-edgiest stuff), and as a result, their wiki is a superb resource, no matter what distro you end up with. I would recommend either Fedora or Ubuntu, as these are both widely used.

    In terms of desktops, both Fedora and Ubuntu default to Gnome, but they both make other versions available: ( and Ubuntu Flavours). I would recommend trying these as Live images until you find one you are comfortable with, as there is no 'right answer', just what fits you.

    Speaking of live images, unlike Windows (and I have no idea about Mac), Linux install media normally comes in the form of a Live image, which lets you boot into a full version of the OS that happens to live on either a CD or a USB stick. From there, installing is a prominent option, but by no means the only thing available. Whether you boot it up to play around in or to rescue the normal operating system that is currently doing a brick impression, these are handy tools to keep in mind. Outside of running the OS installer or explicitly doing things to your drives, nothing you do will persist on your host computer.

    As a result, my personal recommendation is to download Fedora Media Writer (a tool to set up bootable USBs) and try running Fedora** to see what it's like.

    * I use Gnome, so whenever I want to switch tasks, my mouse is at the top left corner before I remember the Windows hotkeys.

    ** I can spout about perl's similar issues with old reputation being unrepresentative of modern usage. There's a book on it. Not mine, but I heartily agree with it.

    *Everybody has these for most things. It just happens to be a different 'most' for every person.

    **I'm biased towards the RH family because that's what I grew up using. Given that they're both defaulting to Gnome these days, I suspect you won't have strong opinions on Fedora vs Ubuntu if you try them back to back.

    This street view is a little less than a mile from my house. I walk down there if I need to go downtown for something.

    https://www.google.com/maps/@35.7781888,-78.6382248,3a,75y,178.62h,85.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgKexwbjekXraF2CxY0-h_w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

    Today I'm looking at "Linux Mint" [1] as maybe my first install here on my "goofing off on the internet computer". I've been "googling" and watching YouTube videos on "Linux for Windoze users" and it seems to have the most Windows-like appearance and AFAIK, this computer doesn't have any software installed on it that is not available in a Linux compatible version (other than maybe my old Nikon Scan software). I may have to switch from Open Office to Libre Office, but those are just two branches of the same tree so all my .ods or .odt files should be fine.

    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Linux+Mint

    Don't know which "distro" is under the GUI, but I don't care as long as I can make the GUI function the way I want it to.

    Once I'm sure I've got Linux working on this computer, I'll start figuring out what I'm going to do with my Photoshop computer. Haven't heard back yet from the vendor who had the Mac OS version of CS6 Extended for sale on "big river dot CA" to see whether there's a work around for "can't ship to a U.S. address" since it says it ships FROM a U.S. address. So I don't yet know if I'm going to have to run the Windoze version in a "Virtual Machine" or just switch over to a mac for my Photoshop Computer.

    [1] Gave the most results from a search for "Which Linux desktop looks the most like Windows7"

    986:

    Keithmasterson @ 980: ... then maybe before Windows 10 does an install, first it surveys the hardware for loopholes and rejects any it doesn't recognize. So a system that's been continually upgraded since the 90s like JBS described might be similar to a house in Iowa I rented for a year back in 1978, it was Civil War vintage but looked new on the outside and much of the inside ...

    Except the only computer that Windoze10 got up and running on was the one that been continuously upgraded for 25 years. It ran like a slug and there were problems because I could not get it to do WHAT I WANTED IT TO DO, but it did "install".

    My OLD laptop, the installer just said NO at the hardware compatibility check and informed me that nVidea would not provide Windoze10 drivers for the graphics processor. My only complaint there is it should have figured that out BEFORE it started nagging me to upgrade.

    The system that was a complete disaster was my most up-to-date "power" system - fastest CPU, most RAM, SSD drives, relatively new video adapter for which I DID have Windoze10 video drivers. It was the system that SHOULD have been able to run Windoze10 most easily, because it was the newest, most recent, most powerful hardware build, well exceeding the hardware minimums & I followed M$ instructions for how to add the Windoze10 video driver to the installation thumb-drive I made so the installer could find it.

    987:

    Speaking of Daleks, have you seen the t-shirt (I gave it to one of my daughters) with a picture of one, and a caption reading, "It's R2-D2! I loved him in Star Trek!"?

    988:

    Aargh! :) No, I haven't...

    989:

    "informed me that nVidea would not provide Windoze10 drivers for the graphics processor."

    Yeah, you get this pain in the arse on Linux too. Fortunately, Linux being Linux, I've so far been able to keep everything going for years beyond the point when the drivers are supposed to have become unusable. Including at least one instance of looking inside the source code of a package that was complaining, finding that the problem was a piece of code labelled "make sure older versions won't work", deleting it, and finding that everything worked fine afterwards.

    990:

    If you are looking for a Windows-like experience, I'd suggest using the Graphical User Interface called XFCE, which is near-infinitely configurable, and making the taskbar large-enough to fill the bottom of your screen. Once you've done that there are very easy configuration options to install a "Windows Button" and all the other stuff you need on a taskbar. (In XFCE you can configure stuff by right-clicking on it.)

    The big problem you'll have is learning the "linux names" for all the applications you'll be using which aren't Photoshop.

    991:

    What the monarch basically is is a PR tool in the form of a non-political head of state. They're cheaper to run than a president and they have the great advantage that at least those they're PRing to understand that they don't do anything and any beef one may have with Britain is not their fault but those fearsome wankers in Parliament.

    I think that's a pretty good idea, for nations well established enough to use the strategy. Australia seems quite happy to have a nominal head of state who lives half a planet away and never bothers them.

    There's the emergency backstop argument too, in that there could be legitimate continuity even if said wankers in Parliament totally cocked up everything.

    The existence of the monarchy functions simply as something to moor Britain to, with the same required characteristics as a mooring bollard of being an inert lump that sits there and does nothing, and seemingly also sharing the characteristic of occasionally being mistaken for a Dalek by people who don't know about bollards.

    If HRH ever shrieked "Exterminate!" and blasted Boris Johnson with a death ray, I'm sure we'd all be willing to indulge her.

    992:

    April D Your ignorant incomprehension based on the deliberate lies you were told about 1776-82 won't wash here [ Like British Tea was CHEAPER than the pre-mafia smuggled tea that the "revolutionaries" were "marketing" & the whole thing was an oligarch's cabal to preserve slave-owning interests, after the Mansfield decision. ] And actually, it was the Habpsburgs who were inbred, not our lot - as you could have checked in about 30 seconds if you could be bothered. READ what Pigeon says, huh?

    993:

    Footnote to the footnote: It wasn't the price of tea in the shops so much as the tax evasion by the British East India Company. Inflated prices from a monopolistic supplier were expected too, of course.

    994:

    Hello everybody. This is my second ever post on OGH's blog, but I would like to put in my bit on the Linux discussion. To declare my interest up front, I am a Linux user and have been for a number of years since returning to home computers upon my decision to take up photography again after a break of 30+ years when reaching retirement age and giving myself a Nikon DSLR as a retirement present. Most of my experience with Microsoft dates back to MSDOS and very early Windows [3.1 ?] Hated it then hated it even more when I bought a S/H laptop with Windows 8 a couple of years before reaching 65. Spent about 5 weeks finding out how to 'defeat' the BIOS in order to be able to boot a Linux live DVD, never looked back since. I tried a number of different Linux Distros over the next couple of years before settling with Linux Mint which I have run for over 5 years now. Over that time I have also helped a couple of other friends migrate from Windows 7 to Linux and am presently trying to help a couple who have a need to run just one obscure piece of Windows only software for their business, but would otherwise be more than happy to move to Linux.

    There seem to me to be 3 main objections people have to Linux as an alternative to Windows.

    First, "Why doesn't Linux behave like Windows" Second, "I positively, absolutely, must be able to use 'Photoshop, Microsoft Office, etc" Third, "Linux sucks for Gaming"

    Taking these in reverse,

    I am not a gamer, so my ability to comment on this is limited, but what I would say is simply 'Steam OS'. There is a huge list of Games on Steam now that, so I understand, run as well or better on Linux as Windows.

    Photoshop. This seems to be one that comes up all the time, and no, Photoshop is not available for Linux. I have never ever used Photoshop and don't have a need for it. GIMP I have never really got to grips with. For downloading images onto the computer from my Nikon I use a piece of software that comes with Mint called 'Pix'. I also use this for viewing JGP files and simple adjustments that I may want to make. For more elaborate work and RAW files I use either 'Darktable' or 'RawTherapee', both open source programs that more than fulfill my needs. I understand that some earlier versions of Photoshop, the ones you used to buy on Disks, can run well on Linux using WINE. Never done it myself but have read about it. I'm sure anyone interested can find out more by Googling or looking for 'How To' videos on YouTube. Another way would be to run said earlier versions in an instance of Windows 7 [for example] running in Virtual Box on a Linux OS. This is the approach that we are taking in order to run the software that my friends I referred to above need to run. Again Google and YouTube can help.

    "Why is not Linux like Windows". This I think is often the BIG one. People come to Linux from Windows expecting everything to be exactly the same as they are used to in Windows, and it isn't. If you want to make the switch you need to work at it and be ready to learn different ways of doing what you want to do. I would recommend trying several different Distros first. I would start by going to a site called 'Distrowatch', and having a look at the different options you have. Look at the websites of the various Distros and see what you like the look of. Having chosen which one[s] you would like to try, download the ISO image and burn it to a USB stick. There is a nice piece of software, available for Windows and Mac as well as Linux, called 'Etcher' that will create a 'Live Bootable Drive' that can be used to try out the Distro without changing anything on your computer. [Except maybe settings in the UEFI/BIOS. You may need to adjust the 'Boot Order', and turn off 'Secure Boot'] When you encounter a question/problem, and you will, try searching with Google and on the help forums that are available. Both Ubuntu and Mint have good helpful communities, but if you do use them, please, be sure to have done your research first, give as much information about your system and problem as possible, and remember, the people who will be trying to help are not paid employees such as you would encounter with Microsoft. Just ordinary people giving freely of their time and experience.

    If I may some YouTube channels I have found useful.

    First and most useful to me has been 'Joe Colins' and his 'EzeeLinux' project, and the associated 'EzeeTalk' Forum, of which I am a member. Joe has a number of 'How To Linux' videos on his channel which I have found of great help.

    Colin Bash at 'PCTLC' who has a number of videos going though the process of installing different Distros.

    And my third recommendation would be Chris Titus 'Chris Titus Tech', and particularly his 'Switching to Linux Challenge' series of videos. Chris is someone who I believe makes a living maintaining Windows Systems for companies, but made the switch to Linux for his personnel home use just over a year ago, and made a series of video diaries charting his progress. He is also, so far as I can see, a 'Hard Core' Gamer, and a lot of his more recent postings are related to Gaming and Steam OS.

    One final thing I should perhaps mention is hardware compatibility. For the most part, with Linux things 'Just Work'. There is no need to download and install drivers for things. Just plug it in and switch on. Just be aware that there can be exceptions to this. Some makes of Printer or WiFi card or Graphics card are much better than others. It depends on the degree of support the manufacturer offers. The answer again is to search with Google to find what will work 'Trouble Free'.

    I hope this is of some help to anyone interested in trying Linux as an alternative to Windows10. My experience has been nothing but good. When not being used for other things, my computer runs tasks for various projects on the BOINC network, where it is running at 100% CPU usage. It runs 24 hours a day 7 days a week and is rock solid. My Distro of choice is Linux Mint 19.2 with the Cinnamon Desktop [MATE on the laptop] It never needs restarting, and it all 'Just Works'.

    995:

    There seem to me to be 3 main objections people have to Linux as an alternative to Windows.

    Nope, you missed the biggest one: "I am an IT manager responsible for machinery that keeps $CORPORATION running. We need support, training, and consultancy services on tap and we need a ten year road-map that will show us what our purchasing requirements are going to be a decade hence. So who manufactures Linux™ and what's their roadmap and support engineer certification program?"

    Now, this is pretty much a busted objection in corporate MIS these days at least on the server side. But desktop linux was, and still is, a smoking crater. Maybe if Qt had adopted an LGPL-compatible license back in 1994 everyone would be using KDE, GNOME would never have happened, and there wouldn't have been the mess of forking and incompatible desktop UIs we see today, but? Nobody who isn't a nerd wants to use a desktop Linux system with GUI. The necessary productivity tools aren't there -- stuff like cross-platform cloud-hosted password management databases, inventory and stock control systems, EPOS terminals, accounting packages, ERP and CRM front-ends. Yes, you can run Oracle or MariaDB on the server. Yes, it's good at hosting VMs and containers and suchlike. But that isn't end user workflow; that's hardcore.

    So Linux failed to get enterprise traction as a desktop environment for decades, despite taking the server and mainframe world by storm. Today Linux has taken the education desktop market, in the shape of ChromeOS. But that doesn't count, because, like treason, nobody dares call it "Linux" if it succeeds on the desktop.

    (As for trying Linux on a PC instead of Windows 10, why bother? Just install WSL or WSL 2 and open a bash terminal prompt right there...)

    996:

    The necessary productivity tools aren't there...

    Exactly. The software ecology just doesn't exist, except perhaps for server applications accessible via a browser. These tend to be a mixed bag, and may add to the complexity for a corporate IT dept.

    However... the desktop itself, the GUI, has been better on Linux than on Windows for at least 7-8 years at this point. (Unless you're using something Gnome-descended, all of which seem to be awful for whatever reason.) I say this as someone who uses Linux at home and Windows at work; Windows 7 was OK, but Windows 10 is an aesthetic disaster, which looks and acts like a failed cellphone OS.

    When I say "better" I mean more stable, easier to configure, more options, more easily theme-able, more free themes available, more aesthetic choices, and so forth. The only place Windows wins at this point is the software ecology, and for the home user most of the "software ecology" issues can be fixed with some digging, (or at last resort you can drink a glass of WINE.)

    997:

    And I should mention much, much more secure, at least from the casual hacker. (I'm sure for a TLA abusing my Linux machine is as easy a abusing a Mac or Windows box.)

    998:

    Meetup wants me to enter my user id & password and I don't have a record of having a Meetup User ID & password ??? So if I don't have them, how did I get to TMUG?

    The Meetup password recovery works via email address. So if you can guess which email address you used or just try all the usual suspects you can get back in.

    The Linux group is for all levels.

    999:

    I mean more stable, easier to configure, more options, more easily theme-able, more free themes available, more aesthetic choices, and so forth.

    Which doesn't matter in many business environments. My wife works for one of the MAJOR airlines in an HQ position. You're talking about things that might matter on the laptop she uses. But for the 10,000s of computers around the world that people have to use to get people on planes with luggage and off of them with same luggage (hopefully) all of those things are anathema. They need world wide consistency to the extant possible so that training and help desks can function. World wide. People move from station to station and need to know how to get things done.

    Then you get to deal with the fact that in many airports the AIRPORT authority supplies the computer. They have a minimum spec. But tweaking the UI is just not wanted. At all.

    My wife had to explain the facts of life to some 3rd party developers who tried to say their software was only tested against Chrome so all the field agents should be told to use Chrome for this one app.

    BTW if you ever wonder why those monitors in airports don't always display the same information it is due to the airport "owning" some of them and the individual airlines owning others. So some have direct feeds and can put up exactly what they want and others get data from an airline and format it the way the airport wants. Ugh.

    1000:

    When I say "better" I mean more stable, easier to configure, more options, more easily theme-able, more free themes available, more aesthetic choices, and so forth. The only place Windows wins at this point is the software ecology, and for the home user most of the "software ecology" issues can be fixed with some digging, (or at last resort you can drink a glass of WINE.)

    Stability... well, yeah, perhaps, but I haven't seen a Windows bluescreen in ages. Stability hasn't really been a problem in a long time, for me, on desktop. (Server-side is a different thing.)

    Configuration and aesthetics don't really matter to many people. I did use fvwm for years as the window manager, and spent days configuring it to be just perfect. Nowadays I don't really do anything to configure a GUI than turn off some of the most annoying defaults. I probably could, but, meh, too much effort for too little gain. (However, I've been learning the 65c02 assembler to do fun stuff, so... I can do things for fun which many people would probably not find fun. Fiddling with GUI configs? Not that much fun, anymore.)

    At home I use mostly Windows 10, at work OS X, as host computers. Linux is delegated mostly to virtual machines, and there Xfce is nice - not too flashy. KDE is my choice if I run Linux directly on the hardware, but nowadays I rarely do that. I try to use all three "big" systems to be aware how each of them is bad, and in my opinion no one of them is perfect or even good in all situations.

    Software... yeah, Linux on the desktop is lacking there. Lots of nice stuff, and I still like to develop on Linux, but doing other stuff feels kind of difficult. Yeah, yeah - I have Steam installed on my Linux, but for some reason I rarely play on that.

    1001:

    I am totally aware of this, but for the individual user, configurability is very useful. A programmer's workflow is very different than an editor's workflow, which is very different from an accountant's workflow... also, I find that the sheer ugliness of Windows 10 comes very close to being intolerable.

    1002:

    Linux failed to get enterprise traction as a desktop environment for decades, despite taking the server and mainframe world by storm.

    True, but there are some major trends that have about half run their course, and that represent real change to the picture you draw.

    First, from the Microsoft (etc) viewpoint, is the Cloud.

    Second, from the tech viewpoint, is containerization. I spent 2018 moving code from Linux desktops to containers running on a Kubernetes cluster. I attest that there are a lot of nice libraries, available over the internet for free, to make the inside of a container act like Ubuntu, or Mint, or whatever-the-heck. I'm confident that every Windows flavoring a developer might want is available, or will be. Microsoft wishes it so.

    From the viewpoint of the desktop, Cloud and container-clusters are about the same thing, ie, remote. If the heavy lifting happens far-far-away, then your desktop can often be, well, anything. Like, Android.

    1003:

    Just a point about operating systems: legacies.

    I was an executor for my late uncle, and got to handle all his online stuff. He was a lifelong bachelor, retired computer scientist, liked to fiddle with his operating system and use non-standard programs. Sound familiar?

    I'll leave it to your imagination to figure out what it's like to be on the receiving end of being the online caregiver to someone who likes to tinker and experiment, who wanted his systems to work the way he wanted them to work, even when he was no longer mentally or physically capable of maintaining them. It's not fun for either party, and the arrogance of the formerly competent computer scientist over his ordinary user nephew only made it worse.

    Long story short, he ended up with a lot of viruses and bloatware that had installed itself on his system, before I, with my minimal skills, helped him get to something that was simple enough that he could use it until he passed away. I've still got a pile of old disks to sort through, going back to the 1980s, to see if there's anything useful left. If I don't just dump the whole damned pile for ewaste.

    That's going to be your legacy too, quite possibly.

    On the flip side, I've got some people in my family who got sick of changing and stuck with their old systems until they became so infested with viruses that they lost everything. They're now unable to adapt to the current operating systems (having missed about a decade's worth of new features), so they're in danger of falling through the digital divide. For example, one elderly relative never learned how to use a smart phone, so when her computer locked up, she had no way of accessing her email to get the reset code because--surprise!--no smart phone. I had to go into her email remotely and get it fixed. If I get run over by a car, she'll be offline entirely in a matter of weeks, because most of the time she's dealing with her anger over things no longer working the way they used to, rather than learning how to deal with them.

    There's a sweet spot, between luddism and eclecticism, where people can age in peace and still do what they want to do. Rather than fighting over which walled garden of software you prefer, you might want to make sure you don't end up on garden compost pile through either inaction, eclecticism, or both.

    1004:

    As I used to tell people in a very different context, "Don't electicute yourself."

    To unpack that, you're completely correct, and everyone should have a "digital will" and be sure that someone younger than you knows what they're doing with your system. And keep your filetypes updated.

    1005:

    Sorry. "Don't eclecticute yourself."

    1006:

    Damn! I hate it when I blow the punchline!

    1007:

    whitroth @ 987: Speaking of Daleks, have you seen the t-shirt (I gave it to one of my daughters) with a picture of one, and a caption reading, "It's R2-D2! I loved him in Star Trek!"?

    I've got one of those.

    1008:

    The big downside of customization is that unless you can transfer it easily to any machine you need to use you are screwed. And any poor bugger trying to use your machine is likely to scream at you. As someone who has spent a large part of the last 40 years working at research labs filled with exactly the sort of people that would decide to write their own window manager ‘for efficiency ‘ etc, I can speak from experience that you rapidly run out of swear words and have to start learning new languages.

    1009:

    There's a sweet spot, between luddism and eclecticism

    It can be tricky to find. I have ~2TB zip file of "The Bat!" email storage system but it turns out they took out the bulk export function a couple of versions of the storage engine ago, so now I can only use that program to read that email. Or I can write a powershell/ahk script that "manually" exports each email one at a time.

    The alternative is to store it on the server and hope that I don't forget to renew some part of the process, because that leads to permanent loss of all stored content (www.mozbike.com, for example).

    Or I can hand it over to google for safekeeping, trusting they will never lose interest and turn it off.

    What I do in terms of "digital will" have the (outer layer of) decryption keys written out and the location of that in my traditional will. Specifically there's 1: decrypt password to boot the pc; 2: login password(s); 3: keepass database password. That's on the theory that they don't have access to the keepass database, just in case my website(s) are down or they fail to locate the file.

    And I also say "if you don't like it don't look at it". Yes, I have a "/porn" directory, and a "/torrent" directory, plus a few other random things that I'm sure would offend some people. But seriously, if you're looking at a deceased person's files and don't want to see donkey-on-realdoll porn why the fsck would you browse their porn folder? And if you do want to see that, sorry but I don't have any.

    1010:

    ...research labs filled with exactly the sort of people that would decide to write their own window manager ‘for efficiency ‘ etc, I can speak from experience that you rapidly run out of swear words and have to start learning new languages.

    I wouldn't encourage anyone to do that! I just use the configuration options I'm given in creative, useful ways. For example, the programs I use most frequently have launchers on an invisible, hidden, panel on the left side of my screen. I just move the mouse and click rather than screw around with desktop shortcuts or menus.

    1011:

    TonyM @ 994: Photoshop. This seems to be one that comes up all the time, and no, Photoshop is not available for Linux. I have never ever used Photoshop and don't have a need for it. GIMP I have never really got to grips with. For downloading images onto the computer from my Nikon I use a piece of software that comes with Mint called 'Pix'. I also use this for viewing JGP files and simple adjustments that I may want to make. For more elaborate work and RAW files I use either 'Darktable' or 'RawTherapee', both open source programs that more than fulfill my needs. I understand that some earlier versions of Photoshop, the ones you used to buy on Disks, can run well on Linux using WINE. Never done it myself but have read about it. I'm sure anyone interested can find out more by Googling or looking for 'How To' videos on YouTube. Another way would be to run said earlier versions in an instance of Windows 7 [for example] running in Virtual Box on a Linux OS. This is the approach that we are taking in order to run the software that my friends I referred to above need to run. Again Google and YouTube can help.

    Since I started the current iteration of this thread ... For serious photo editing GIMP is NOT a substitute for Photoshop. I have used GIMP. It's not for me for the same reasons Lightroom was not for me. I cannot do things I frequently do in Photoshop in either GIMP or Lightroom. It looks like I'm going to have to figure out how to do Photoshop in a Virtual Machine, because there's some question if the version I use will work properly under WINE.

    It also looks like some of my scanner software (Nikon & Epson) might not be Linux compatible, but all that means is the scanners will have to move from this machine to the Photoshop machine so the software can run on the same virtual machine as Photoshop.

    There's an outside chance I may acquire a retail copy of Photoshop CS6 Extended for Mac. If that comes through, I'll switch to Mac for Photoshop. But so far I haven't had a lot of luck. I found a copy on "Big River dot CA", but they don't want to ship it to a U.S. address. I'm still waiting to hear back from the seller to see if there's a way around that.

    "Why is not Linux like Windows". This I think is often the BIG one.

    Not a big deal for me. I like the simplicity of the GUI, but it doesn't have to be the Windoze GUI. When I first switched to 7 from XP the first thing I did was download a "shell" program that made Win7's GUI look like WinXP's GUI. I eventually migrated to Win7's native GUI, but I don't expect I'll have MUCH of a problem adapting to whatever GUI I end up with on Linux.

    And I'm not scared of the command line, although it's been a while since I used it much. My introduction to the internet came with ProComm for DOS, the Bash shell, Tin for news reading and Pine for email. My previous Unix "like" experience was community college classes on System V.

    I've already figured out that Steam runs on Linux, so I expect my games will as well. And for the ones that don't, I'll find different games to play.

    One final thing I should perhaps mention is hardware compatibility.

    Again, not such a big deal for me. I built this computer. I built the Photoshop computer. I built computers for a living when I worked for IBM. If I have to update/upgrade hardware or build a new computer from scratch, that ain't gonna be a problem.

    1012:

    David L @ 998:

    Meetup wants me to enter my user id & password and I don't have a record of having a Meetup User ID & password ??? So if I don't have them, how did I get to TMUG?

    The Meetup password recovery works via email address. So if you can guess which email address you used or just try all the usual suspects you can get back in.

    The Linux group is for all levels.

    That's not the problem. If I have to I'll make a new Meetup ID & password. The PROBLEM (and it's not a real, earth-shattering problem, just one of those little mysteries that make me CRAZY) is how did I get on Meetup in the first place without an ID & password? Because I always record the ID & password in my secret place while I'm creating them because I know I won't remember them later.

    1013:

    For example, one elderly relative never learned how to use a smart phone

    My wife has an uncle and aunt in their 80s who a few years back got cell phone. Flippers. And gave all of us relatives the numbers so we could call them. Of course when they travel they don't want to be disturbed so they keep them turned off except when they want to call someone else. And at times leave them at home turned off for days. As best we can figure out the have per-arranged call times for when they are apart. They also have a land line. But no answering machine.

    Hard to get in touch with them at times.

    The do have email but the ISP is small enough to have issues sending email to a lot of mail servers. But of course it isn't their fault their email bounce back. Must be ours.

    Oh, well. I know your pain.

    1014:

    Troutwaxer @ 1001: also, I find that the sheer ugliness of Windows 10 comes very close to being intolerable.

    Plus, Cortana would NEVER STFU! !!!. At least you can gag Siri. Maybe even turn her off completely. I don't know, but I do know I don't have to listen to her nagging.

    1015:

    why the fsck would you browse their porn folder?

    Because that's where many people could hide the account codes to the Swiss accounts.

    1016:

    There's an outside chance I may acquire a retail copy of Photoshop CS6 Extended for Mac. If that comes through, I'll switch to Mac for Photoshop.

    I MIGHT have some licenses (real ones) of that in a few months. But you'll be stuck with 10.10 or earlier or lots of things will be broken. And if you plan to run it on that MacMini you mentioned you may not be very happy with performance. Even if it has an SSD. If it has an HD then you'll be totally pissed.

    (We live in the same city and bump into each other every month or few.)

    1017:

    Cortana

    Windows 10 as of TODAY is very different than when it first came out. Lots of customization that didn't exist at first. Turning her off is one of the first things I do.

    1018:

    David L @ 1016:

    "There's an outside chance I may acquire a retail copy of Photoshop CS6 Extended for Mac. If that comes through, I'll switch to Mac for Photoshop."

    I MIGHT have some licenses (real ones) of that in a few months. But you'll be stuck with 10.10 or earlier or lots of things will be broken. And if you plan to run it on that MacMini you mentioned you may not be very happy with performance. Even if it has an SSD. If it has an HD then you'll be totally pissed.

    (We live in the same city and bump into each other every month or few.)

    I know a place that's an "Apple Authorized Service Provider and Value-Added Reseller (VAR)", and he's told me he can install my SSD in place of the HDD, and in fact, has the kit that would allow me to have 2 internal SSDs. I already have the SSDs (2 x 2TB - Egghead had a promo & I jumped on it) and it's just a matter of getting the time to take it down there for them to do the upgrade.

    The Mac Mini is my "music" system (i.e. recording studio in a box) and I was actually thinking about getting a NEW Mac if I'm going to be using it to run Photoshop. The copy of CS6 Extended I'm trying to acquire is 64-bit, so it should run under the latest version of OS X with no problem (unless there's something else you know about that would prevent that).

    David L @ 1017:

    "Cortana"

    Windows 10 as of TODAY is very different than when it first came out. Lots of customization that didn't exist at first. Turning her off is one of the first things I do.

    You don't write that name with the right amount of derision. You don't sneer enough.

    It's Cortana!

    Anyway, it's too late. They pissed me off and lost my business.

    1019:

    My understanding of Windows 10 is the name remains the same but the OS evolves, don't like it now? Wait awhile, you'll get something livable, if you like that sort of thing.

    1020:

    Even with SSDs in that MacMini you might feel that Photoshop in CS6 is slow. Or maybe not. But I'd plan to bump the RAM to 16gb.

    As to the option of running CS6 on a new Mac. Ah, nope.

    It barely runs on macOS 10.12.x. Current Macs require 10.15.x. Maybe 10.14.x 10.15.x drops all support for 32 bit apps. Or any part of an app.

    CS6 is what, 8 years old? While the main apps may be 64 bit in that version, no where near all of the plug ins that give much of the functionality are. That has been a long slog for CAD/Graphics software vendors to get all of those bits. Especially all the ones programmed in now defunct frameworks.

    Back to the barely works on 10.12.x. I have this in an office (we're about to switch to 10.14/10.16 and new versions of Adobe CC. But in the meantime there is a LOT about CS6 that doesn't work. Or it kind of seems to work. At times. Mostly. Now Photoshop and InDesign seem to be the best of the lot but still there's a lot of glitches. I'm not sure when CS6 worked well last but it is likely at least as far back as 10.10.

    So a new Mac to run CS6 isn't really an option. Now maybe with Fusion or Parallels you might be able to run macOS 10.10 or earlier on a base system of 10.14 or later but I'm not sure.

    Maybe it is time to switch to Affinity Photo. Win 7 and macOS 10.9 supported. $50 one time license cost.

    1021:

    Maybe it is time to switch to Affinity Photo.

    The only reason I still use my old copy of Photoshop is because one of the plugins I need (Flexify 2) doesn't work in Affinity Photo. So all editing gets done in Affinity Photo, then a final trip into Photoshop if I need a Flexify transformation.

    1022:

    As I think I mentioned, I now have (in addition to the herd of Macs) a Windows 10 sub-notebook. One of these (16Gb RAM, 512Gb nvme SSD, LTE and wifi). It's about the same size and weight as an iPad Mini in a keyboard case.

    It's running Windows 10, because I couldn't be arsed replacing Win 10 with Linux ... because it's also running the Windows Subsystem for Linux. Which means I have a Debian command line environment to do stuff in, and get to use Windows 10 as a launcher for the essential applications I depend on that aren't available on Linux -- notably Scrivener (now in beta 34, a late release candidate) and 1Password, with a side-order of iTunes (yes, I use iTunes Music) and, in emergency, Microsoft Word (for bug-compatible interoperability with my publishers).

    Windows 10 is mildly annoying and somewhat clunkier than macOS, but it's very much an Android/iOS comparison these days: tastes differ, but as long as I don't try to run vast numbers of arcane Windows legacy applications, or do exotic configuration stuff, it's reasonably tame. Yes, Windows Defender is mandatory. So is creating a separate admin account (with a different username and password) and not running my regular account as an administrative one: that blocks most privilege escalation attacks in one fell swoop. There are some other tricks too. I generally maintain the software on it using a couple of package management tools: Chocolatey (a package/configuration manager for Windows applications), and Steam (for games). Very few things land on the Windows box without going through one or the other of those installation paths, I only use web browsers with script- and ad-blockers installed, and everything gets malware scanned.

    The point of this is, I guess, that being comfortable in a 21st century computing environment is more about network security than operating system platforms. I use an iPhone and an iPad for precisely the reason many people prefer Android -- I don't want my mobile devices to be open to tinkering, because if I can tinker with them, so can random strangers.

    1023:

    David L @ 1020: Even with SSDs in that MacMini you might feel that Photoshop in CS6 is slow. Or maybe not. But I'd plan to bump the RAM to 16gb.

    Probably will, but as I noted I'm not really looking to run Photoshop on it. I want to keep it as my "music box" so to speak.

    As to the option of running CS6 on a new Mac. Ah, nope.

    It barely runs on macOS 10.12.x. Current Macs require 10.15.x. Maybe 10.14.x 10.15.x drops all support for 32 bit apps. Or any part of an app.

    CS6 is what, 8 years old? While the main apps may be 64 bit in that version, no where near all of the plug ins that give much of the functionality are. That has been a long slog for CAD/Graphics software vendors to get all of those bits. Especially all the ones programmed in now defunct frameworks.

    Back to the barely works on 10.12.x. I have this in an office (we're about to switch to 10.14/10.16 and new versions of Adobe CC. But in the meantime there is a LOT about CS6 that doesn't work. Or it kind of seems to work. At times. Mostly. Now Photoshop and InDesign seem to be the best of the lot but still there's a lot of glitches. I'm not sure when CS6 worked well last but it is likely at least as far back as 10.10.

    So a new Mac to run CS6 isn't really an option. Now maybe with Fusion or Parallels you might be able to run macOS 10.10 or earlier on a base system of 10.14 or later but I'm not sure.

    If I'm going to run Photoshop in a VM, can't I run Windoze7 in there and use my existing Windows version of Photoshop? In that case I wouldn't need the Mac version of Photoshop. Which is good considering the difficulty I'm having acquiring a native Mac version.

    After a quick look at Parallels I'm not so sure about it. Looks like it's an annual subscription thingy, and if I wanted to do that I could just sign up for PhotoshopCC. Didn't see if Fusion is that way.

    Maybe it is time to switch to Affinity Photo. Win 7 and macOS 10.9 supported. $50 one time license cost.

    I'll give Affinity Photo a look, but my first impression is it looks more like a replacement for Corel Painter than for Photoshop. I don't just reject suggested programs out of hand. I do give them serious consideration and I'm willing to try them to see if they can do the job I want them to do. That's the major part of why I want to stick with Photoshop CS6. Using it, I know I can do what I want to do.

    I did notice Affinity Photo is 32-bit so isn't that likely to be a problem in the future with Apple? Do you know if they're working on a 64-bit version that will be Mac compatible down the road?

    Charlie Stross @ 1022:

    The point of this is, I guess, that being comfortable in a 21st century computing environment is more about network security than operating system platforms. I use an iPhone and an iPad for precisely the reason many people prefer Android -- I don't want my mobile devices to be open to tinkering, because if I can tinker with them, so can random strangers.

    Micro$oft pissed me off with Windoze10 and I'm not going to do business with them any more.

    That may not be reasonable, and I understand not many people can afford to do it, but I'm in a position where I can. I'm not giving up my grudge against Micro$oft just because it's inconvenient.

    I am slow to anger, because I worked hard for many years to master my temperr. I don't want to be an angry person. I don't like the angry person I become. But I do have certain principles I live by and one of them is I won't do business with a corporation that has screwed me over in the past. Even if it makes my life more difficult. I don't appreciate corporate bullshit that makes me angry all over again.

    1024:

    “ If I'm going to run Photoshop in a VM, can't I run Windoze7 in there and use my existing Windows version of Photoshop?”

    Yes. In fact that’s what you would be obliged to do, or at least it is the simplest thing for you to do. The only potential issue is scanning. Virtualbox does allow a guest os access to USB hardware, in which case you’d be able to just use the drivers you have inside the guest windows 7. But getting that to work may involve some frustrating moments trying the configuration options. But there should be really very little issue getting the scanner to work in the host os, using the shared folder to get at the scanned images with photoshop. Unless the scanner is at all esoteric or unusual and you need the drivers from the manufacturer, who only does windows.

    1025:

    "It also looks like some of my scanner software (Nikon & Epson) might not be Linux compatible"

    Oh bugger, I'd forgotten about those things. This is the site to check for compatibility of scanners and scanneroids: http://www.sane-project.org/sane-supported-devices.html

    Epson ones can be a bit of an arse. My scanner is an Epson V200 which I've had for something over 10 years. I chose it because I needed a scanner urgently and that was the only one of the four models of scanner PC World stocked that was both good enough at scanning (4800dpi optical resolution on both axes) and could be made to work with Linux. I had to hunt out some shitty closed-source blob from Epson and fuck around to get it working, but then having done that once it's been fine ever since. The only difficulty is that the closed-source blob is a very stupid piece of software that demands far more memory than is actually needed for the scan data, so it had problems trying to scan a full page at more than 300dpi or more than one 35mm frame at 4800dpi until I got a machine that actually had stupid amounts of memory to run it on.

    At roughly the same time I also pissed myself off by trying to look for a decent film scanner. All I could find were either cheap and festering pieces of dogshit made out of webcams, or beautiful and expensive Nikon ones that absolutely would not work with Linux under any circumstances. So I never have got one. If I need to scan film I make do with the Epson flatbed, which sucks, but still seems to make better scans than whatever they use in professional developing shops I've tried.

    That's all about the drivers; as far as user interface front ends go, on Linux you're using the same one whoever made the scanner.

    1026:

    So is creating a separate admin account (with a different username and password) and not running my regular account as an administrative one: that blocks most privilege escalation attacks in one fell swoop.

    This is good practice for any computer capable of doing that. Again, I'm biased, but I've been doing it in Linux all the time (because it's a Unix, and makes this relatively easy) and on Windows as long as it's been really possible. I think from XP onwards at home, and working on NT it was a requirement from the IT dept.

    I hear Vista was a real annoyance to use, because it asked the admin permissions all the time, but I never used it myself, so can't confirm that. W7 and W10 work well enough for me.

    I've also taken to using git for mostly everything I can and maybe putting that also on the NAS and on the Internets (mostly Github) when I really want to be sure they're safe, but that's a somewhat different thing, and doesn't replace proper backups. (Which, again, don't exist if you haven't made sure they can be retrieved back.)

    1027:

    Sadly the "Install with this admin account credentials I provide now" doesn't always work as it should.

    When/if the installer calls up another installation (auxilliary programs, needed subsystems etc) this new installation often seems to be run with the logged on users (limited) privileges. The only way out of this dilemma is to be logged on as an admin on the computer before starting the installation which sort of defeats the idea of only using admin account in a "Run as..." scenario.

    But - as usual - thats Microsoft Windows for you...

    1028:

    You missed how USians often think they are not a democracy despite the method they use to select their chief executive and legislature...

    1029:

    Paws It seems to be a standad rethuglican meme: "We are not a democracy, we are a republic" - as if that was in some way, virtuous. There's the other meme of "constitutionalism" - which as far as I can see wants to go back to the founding fatherscrooks & (purely incidentally, of course) revert to slavery & women not having the vote.

    1030:

    If I'm going to run Photoshop in a VM, can't I run Windoze7 in there and use my existing Windows version of Photoshop? In that case I wouldn't need the Mac version of Photoshop.

    Your earlier comments seemed to indicate you were looking at getting a copy of CS6 to run on a Mac.

    1031:

    Scanners.... I haven't hooked mine up in a long time - it's an actual SCSI from '98, flatbed, color, but when I was using it, I had no trouble using SANE.

    1032:

    Pigeon @ 1025:

    "It also looks like some of my scanner software (Nikon & Epson) might not be Linux compatible"

    Oh bugger, I'd forgotten about those things. This is the site to check for compatibility of scanners and scanneroids:
    http://www.sane-project.org/sane-supported-devices.html

    That's all about the drivers; as far as user interface front ends go, on Linux you're using the same one whoever made the scanner.

    Thanks for that link. Looks like there are drivers for both of my scanners. I expected there might be for the Epson, because it's a popular model (Perfection V750 PRO). I was worried about the Nikon (CoolscanIV ED) because I had a hard time getting drivers for it for Windows7. It's an orphan product, and the last time Nikon supported it was under WindozeXP.

    I have EPSON Scan & Nikon Scan software installed. Looks like Epson may offer a Linux version (Ubuntu, Linux Mint, Debian, Fedora, openSUSE & CentOS). I might not be able to get the the Nikon Scan program to work, but I've mainly been using Ed Hamrick's VueScan because it will output files in .DNG which is the camera raw format I use in camera, so having everything .DNG simplifies my workflow (Nikon Scan only outputs .NEF & .JPG).

    I keep the Epson scan software for document scanning, although I don't know why, because I've never used it to do that. But I could, if I ever get a "round tuit" ... I do have a bunch of documents I've been meaning to scan. Nothing important (couple thousand collected lyric/chord sheets for songs), but if I can scan them into something that I can edit in a word processor it would save me a lot of work (i.e. I won't have to copy them by typing them in).

    If I learn how to do it on unimportant documents, I'll be set if I ever have an important document to scan for editing.

    1033:

    David L @ 1030:

    If I'm going to run Photoshop in a VM, can't I run Windoze7 in there and use my existing Windows version of Photoshop? In that case I wouldn't need the Mac version of Photoshop.

    Your earlier comments seemed to indicate you were looking at getting a copy of CS6 to run on a Mac.

    I am trying to. I haven't had much success yet.

    The only copy I've found is through "Big River dot CA" and they told me that even though it ships FROM Florida, they can't ship it to a U.S. address. I've asked them to pass a message to the seller to find out if there is an alternative way for me to purchase it, one that can ship to a U.S. address but I haven't heard back from them yet.

    Then you said that even if I can find a 64-bit Mac OS copy I'd still have to run it in a virtual machine, because it won't run in the latest version of OS X.

    "As to the option of running CS6 on a new Mac. Ah, nope."
    "It barely runs on macOS 10.12.x. Current Macs require 10.15.x. Maybe 10.14.x 10.15.x drops all support for 32 bit apps. Or any part of an app."
    "So a new Mac to run CS6 isn't really an option. Now maybe with Fusion or Parallels you might be able to run macOS 10.10 or earlier on a base system of 10.14 or later but I'm not sure."

    I don't understand why. The copy I'm trying to buy is 64-bit software for Mac OS, but if that is the case, that it would only run in a virtual machine, I might as well run the Windoze version I already have in that virtual machine.

    And in that case, IF I can't run the 64-bit Mac application on a new Mac (or if I can't get the 64-bit Mac version), I will probably be running my current Windoze copy of the software in a virtual machine on a Linux computer.

    That's where I stand at the moment. Windoze7 is dead, Windoze10 can kiss my ass and I still need a 64-bit stand alone version of Photoshop (be it Windoze or Mac), along with some way to run it on a computer that is not Windoze7 or Windoze10.

    1034:

    Scanners

    If you have a no longer supported scanner you really like and a Mac then Vuescan software is totally worth it.

    https://www.hamrick.com/

    1035:

    CS6 is Creative SUITE 6. And is years old. And the last of the "buy it and install it on your computer for a one time license fee".

    CCx indicates the Cloud Verisons. That can only be rented. Initial versions were numbered 1,2,3, etc... but now it is named CC2020 and such.

    Now with CS6 (suite) while the main app or apps may be 64 bit not all the bits (plugins and such) are. So not all features would work. Plus it uses a lot of "depreciated" APIs which is why it has been working less and less well into macOS 10.12.x. Although Photoshop works fairly well. Biggest thing again is plugins and at times it doesn't want to save preferences and you have to try again. Plus every now and then we get to trash the current prefs when it will not start. All of this under macOS 10.12.x

    Again, I'm working with someone who might be willing to give up a copy or all of their CS6 licenses in a month or so.

    SO, if you want to run CS (suite) on a Mac and have it work reasonably well you need to run it on a macOS of 10.10 or maybe earlier. Which means if you have current Mac hardware you're looking at some sort of virtual setup to get a macOS prior to 10.14 or 10.15 to run.

    Someone mentioned Affinity Photo as NOT being 64 bit. Since the Mac version supports 10.15 it DOES have a 64 bit binary. Only way it could work.

    1036:
    "We are not a democracy, we are a republic"

    Just can't get their tiny little heads around the idea that they might be both.

    "It's not just a dessert topping, it's also a floor wax!"

    1037:

    Let me add this - there's a thread on a techie mailing list I'm on, and M$ products came up... and Office/Word. Someone commented there that LibreOffice is like Office 2007.

    My response: in 1995, PC Magazine had a review of then-popular word processors, and noted that 90% of the users use 10% of the features, and of the 10% of the users that use the rest, they use them 10% of the time.

    So, just because something is years old does not mean it needs an upgrade (other than security or bugfix). If it does everything you want, and there's nothing that's been introduced as an "enhancement", why upgrade.

    Note that "enhancement", in the current COTS market, means "a reason for you to give us more money, not that you'll ever use or want this feature."

    1038:

    David L @ 1035: CS6 is Creative SUITE 6. And is years old. And the last of the "buy it and install it on your computer for a one time license fee".

    I know. That's why I bought it, so I wouldn't have to pay rent. The only part of the "SUITE" that I use is Photoshop Extended (64-bit).

    Someone mentioned Affinity Photo as NOT being 64 bit. Since the Mac version supports 10.15 it DOES have a 64 bit binary. Only way it could work.

    That might have been me. The website for Affinity Photo says it's a 32-bit application (or it did the other day when I looked at the site).

    IIRC, since Apple is killing off support for 32-bit applications, I asked does the publisher (or whatever you call a company that makes & sells software) have a 64-bit version?

    If it works with the current version of OS X, I presume the answer is yes.

    1039:

    John Hughes @ 1036:

    "We are not a democracy, we are a republic"

    Just can't get their tiny little heads around the idea that they might be both.

    "It's not just a dessert topping, it's also a floor wax!"

    It's a representative democracy. Any group larger than 250 people is too large to operate as a DIRECT democracy.

    Hell, if you can't get four people in a car pool to agree on whether or where to stop for breakfast/coffee, how are you going to get 330 million of them to agree even on when/where to stop & take a vote?

    Although, there is some question now-a-days who our representatives actually represent?

    1040:
    Could be interesting with regard to endless home computer problems, to find out how much is just marketing strategies like planned obsolescence, which have been around in the car biz since the 1950s, and how much is relatively new based on security worries like Huawei having a back door to U.S. government and corporate secrets.

    I'm in the biz, so obviously I'm In On The Conspiracy, but I can more or less guarantee that the answer is 'none of the above'. The problems seen with modern software are simply because modern machines are ever more complex and irregular, modern software is even more complex yet, and the test matrix long ago exploded to the point where all but the most common things are basically untestable unless you have a new, much larger universe to convert into computers to test in: the most you can do is test common use cases and the most common error-handling code paths and hope like hell that the untested subset doesn't have any destructive interactions (which, of course, it will). Installing operating systems on old weird constantly-upgraded hardware, particularly when the OS is one that is rarely installed by the end-user anyway, is an absolutely classic example of "is likely to fail in horrible-to-debug ways", though when the OS is only halfway through installation and it's not the debug version of Windows you're basically out of luck trying to debug it at all, even if you had access to the Windows source code so you stood a chance of being able to debug it. Linux is in theory better, but, y'know, just having the source code doesn't mean you can easily find bugs in it when the bug is in a multi-million line codebase you're totally unfamiliar with! It is at least possible, though, if you have enough time, inclination, and experience.

    The ending of the widespread use of poor languages like C (and I use it all day, I think in it but I do know just how bad it is) and the use of formal proof could improve the dire state of software quality a bit, but it is almost impossibly difficult to write any substantial system via a formal proof, you can't really prove an existing system anyway (the proof systems impose constraints such that you more or less have to work on all-new programs), and my experience with such proof systems is that even fairly simple and routine stuff that programmers do many times a week often runs into "this is possibly provable, but it will take a PhD thesis and five years of work to figure out how".

    I am often amazed that computers work at all, let alone as well as they do. No conspiracy theories are required to explain the times when they don't work, but I do sometimes wonder if a conspiracy theory is required to explain the times they do. :)

    1041:

    Nix @ 1040: I'm in the biz, so obviously I'm In On The Conspiracy, but I can more or less guarantee that the answer is 'none of the above'. The problems seen with modern software are simply because modern machines are ever more complex and irregular, modern software is even more complex yet, and the test matrix long ago exploded to the point where all but the most common things are basically untestable unless you have a new, much larger universe to convert into computers to test in: the most you can do is test common use cases and the most common error-handling code paths and hope like hell that the untested subset doesn't have any destructive interactions (which, of course, it will). Installing operating systems on old weird constantly-upgraded hardware, particularly when the OS is one that is rarely installed by the end-user anyway, is an absolutely classic example of "is likely to fail in horrible-to-debug ways", though when the OS is only halfway through installation and it's not the debug version of Windows you're basically out of luck trying to debug it at all, even if you had access to the Windows source code so you stood a chance of being able to debug it. Linux is in theory better, but, y'know, just having the source code doesn't mean you can easily find bugs in it when the bug is in a multi-million line codebase you're totally unfamiliar with! It is at least *possible*, though, if you have enough time, inclination, and experience.

    Two basic flaws I see ...

    THEY are marketing the software to end-users. So when the end-user comes up against one of those horrible-to-debug failures, end-users should have adequate support, even if that means the software company has to actually talk to the hardware manufacturer to find out where THEY screwed up. If you're going to market to end-users, you have to support end-users. You can't just give the customer the run-around by hiding behind the EULA.

    If the new software won't run on old hardware, you can't just turn off the old software that did. That IS a fucking conspiracy. It's a conspiracy to defraud the customer.

    1042:

    The problems seen with modern software are simply because modern machines are ever more complex and irregular, modern software is even more complex yet, and the test matrix long ago exploded to the point where all but the most common things are basically untestable unless you have a new, much larger universe to convert into computers to test in

    Yep. And this ties into the dropping of 32 bit support by OS vendors. As long as both 32 and 64 bit apps (which means 1000s of duplicate APIs) can be used the testing matrix is more than doubled. First test each API twice and then test to make sure 32 bit API calls are correctly turned into 64 bit calls internally then back again with 32 bit results. The number of edge cases to deal with goes through the roof. So Apple puts on a full court press to drop 32 bit once they get 64 bit things working reliably.

    Now why not just not move to 64 bit? Because the people who will drop $$$ and £££ without thinking want the performance. So those of use who just want to browse a few character based web sites and type an email or two get to go along for the ride.

    1043:

    OK. I'll ask again.

    If my wife and I visit London for a week are there any dates to just flat out avoid in the upcoming February or March?

    I'm seriously interested in an answer.

    Moz was my only answer. "You should any date that requires you to fly."

    I think they meant don't do it.

    So I did think about it a while and decided to fly anyway. Lots of reasons. Interestingly this popped on my news feed the next day. https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/flying-guilt/index.html and I did some searching and found this: https://ensia.com/voices/flight-shaming-flying-travel-carbon-co2-emissions-flyless-aviation-cars-trains/ Actually found a lot of most were options with little meat.

    I found the second article interesting but where on earth (literally) are there planes flying with an average of 88 people on them. I and my wife have likely flown 150 flights in the last 2 years and I think there have been maybe 3 with only that many on them. Most of our flights have been on planes with 150 to 180 seats with maybe 5 empty on most of them.

    This leads me to believe that I'm doing less harm in most of my flying than driving my fuel efficient small Civic around. At least on a per mile basis.

    And since I'm almost exclusively flying standby I don't create any extra demand.

    I'm going to stick with my fight against urban sprawl and it's similar things. No, fellow old farts, the upcoming generations don't really want to live in single family housing on 1/4 acre lots spread out from horizon to horizon. So let us build up, even outside of the city center 20 blocks.

    1044:

    From the ENSIA link: Even if everyone were to stop flying, the total climate mitigation impact would be negligible.

    Somehow the best minds on the planet have spent 30 years looking and still haven't found that single source of 80% or 100% of the emissions which let us just stop doing that one thing and the problem will be solved.

    are there planes flying with an average of 88 people on them

    Assuming you're not just asking a stupid question for rhetorical purposes, watch this (a mathematician explains that there is no average person). Calculating the number you're complaining about is necessarily complex, and whatever the answer is a reasonable person could argue with the number, the calculation, or even whether a meaningful answer is possible. What we do know is that you, personally, have decided that your holiday is worth some small but measurable fraction of the total carbon emissions budget that remains.

    and DavidL's response: I did think about it a while and decided to fly anyway.

    I realise that it's hard to persuade someone when their comfort depends on their not understanding it, but the world is made up of small individuals doing small things that combine to create a huge problem. We can't solve the problem by saying "anything that creates less than 5% of the problem is fine", we have to address all of the things in order to get to zero emissions.

    We really are in a situation where the question is literally "will you die if you do not do that?" and for you the answer is "throw another grandchild on the fire, I like flying".

    1045:

    ...90% of the users use 10% of the features, and of the 10% of the users that use the rest, they use them 10% of the time.

    And, famously, they don't use the same features.

    I don't need auto-renumbered nesting paragraph markup. I don't need Arabic language support. I don't need to export documents as fillable pdf forms. There are people who do need those things. There's probably even someone who needs all three of those.

    1046:

    Any group larger than 250 people is too large to operate as a DIRECT democracy.

    A rule of thumb formula I've seen for fan groups is 5^[layers of organization] ~= [total population]

    For example, if a small group of people wants to go out to dinner they can just go. Around 20 participants they're going to want someone to organize the wandering or distractible members, call ahead to warn the restaurant, and so on; that's two layers, the shepherd and everyone else, and 5^2 = 25. For a 125 person event they'll have a master planner and minions.

    The arbitrary value 5 can obviously be lower or higher depending on activity type and circumstances.

    1047:

    No, fellow old farts, the upcoming generations don't really want to live in single family housing on 1/4 acre lots spread out from horizon to horizon. So let us build up, even outside of the city center 20 blocks.

    Also, if old farts won'd pay the upcoming generations enough money to afford single family housing, the old farts can shut up about the upcoming generations not buying any.

    1048:

    are there planes flying with an average of 88 people on them ... Assuming you're not just asking a stupid question for rhetorical purposes, watch this (a mathematician explains that there is no average person). Calculating the number you're complaining about is necessarily complex,

    Gee nice to keep this on a polite level.

    My wife works for one of the world's larger airlines. I spent the 80s flying for business to 2 or 3 cities in the US most weeks. I fly now in the US for other reasons but between us we fly a LOT. I know what load factors are. I can see how full the planes we fly are and the ones we don't fly. That number of 88 is just flat out way too low for airlines in the US.

    Now maybe for some foreign (to me) flag carriers that operate at a loss can fly with lower load factors. But for US (and I suspect EU) carriers that number is just too low. In the US if you're not flying an average load factor into the mid 80s (percentage of sold seats) on your fleet you're going out of business. And to be honest it needs to be in the upper half of the 80s or better. And since most planes in the US are 150 seats minimum that number of 88 doesn't make sense.

    So to make that a world wide average there have to be a LOT of empty planes flying non trivial distances somewhere in the world.

    PS: I don't see you yelling at our host about his flying. I suspect he logs more miles than me.

    1049:

    I personally know a variety of members of that upcoming generation that make a LOT more than me at similar points in my career.

    They don't want the 1/4 acre single family home in the burbs. At all.

    1050:

    I personally know a variety of members of that upcoming generation that make a LOT more than me at similar points in my career

    Two quick points (just observations, not attempting to start an argument):

    1) You're using gratuitous anecdata.

    2) Are you measuring "a LOT more" in absolute or relative terms? That is: I personally make a lot more than my father did at the same point in his career, but my purchasing power (particularly with regards to housing) is significantly less. I'm fairly sure this holds true across the developed world.

    1051:

    "a LOT more" relative to their peers.

    I work with architects and builders. I grew up with my father building houses as a sideline. I keep abreast of such things as housing costs, trends, and what not. I just spent an hour or so with an architect/builder who specializes in these non burb houses discussing how things are changing. But slowly.

    I'm also involved in my children's lives to some degree and that of their friends. An extended circle numbering up to 100 or so. Living all around the country. For a variety of reasons they are way above average in terms of earning power compared to many of their age group. They are mostly not interested in the typical US burb housing sprawl.

    And I follow the news and extended reporting on such issues.

    Have I written a research paper for you to examine, footnotes and all? Nope. But neither have most of the folks on this blog. Especially those trashing things they obviously know little about.

    Anyway, in the US the trend for those who CAN afford it is moving away from what I and many other grew up with (and my father helped build to some degree). Both in desire and planning. With a LOT of push back from my "old fart" peers.

    Locally it can be seen in the way Research Triangle Park have moved away from the first 40 years of build remote buildings in the wood and the "dads" commute to them from the burbs of the surrounding cities. That model is going away in this bastion of suburban living.

    You can do your own Google searching.

    1052:

    Not all passenger aircraft can carry 88 seated passengers for one thing. I suspect that near fully loaded SAAB 340s will distort the result of having 747s with a 20% load factor for example (since the Jumbo at 20% will still have more Pax on board than the full 340).

    1053:
    Now maybe for some foreign (to me) flag carriers that operate at a loss can fly with lower load factors.

    Or maybe regional airlines (22 in the US alone) operating planes in the 50-seat range might have something to do with it.

    1054:

    I know about those small guys and their small planes. But even those regionals rarely fly fleets of 50 seaters. Most are 70 to 120 seats. And rarely 1/2 empty from what I see.

    I just did a search on "US airline fleets" and United was the first result. 343 Boeing 737s (including 14 grounded 737 MAX) 99 Airbus A320s. 92 Boeing 777s. 75 Boeing 757s. 68 Airbus A319s. 53 Boeing 767s. 46 Boeing 787s. And based on a quick look at wikipedia those 320s are around 150 seats minimum depending and the 319s about 120 minimum. The rest are at 160 or a lot more.

    And as I said if you're not averaging 80% paying passengers you're going out of business. At least in the US.

    And each of those 787s and 777s holds as many seats as 4 or 5 of the smaller regional jets.

    FYI depending on ... the 737s seats 160 to I think 200. 160 is the old way on AA with 4 rows of business. The new squeeze that is coming will keep the 4 rows of business with 2 more rows in the back for a total of 172.

    And yes I'm aware that there's a lot of commuter planes out there (every walked to gate E58743 at CLT?) but I believe the seat capacity on the majors dwarfs those numbers. (That search turns up a LOT of planes of 150 seats or more being used by the majors in the US.)

    And I'll admit that I don't know very much at all about Africa, the old Soviet Union and a few other places. I go by what I see mostly in North America and the EU.

    1055:

    distort the result of having 747s with a 20% load

    The emptiest plane I've been on in years was a flight from the US to Madrid in October on a Sunday night. For whatever reason it was only about 30% full. Which is great on an overnight flight. Move to an empty row and stretch out sleep.

    Other than that I can't remember a flight with less than 50% paying and that is a rare thing indeed.

    You have to understand since we fly standby searching for empty planes is something we work hard at.

    1056:

    For a variety of reasons they are way above average in terms of earning power compared to many of their age group.

    That should be sufficient clue that the average and median income is significantly less than among the observed population.

    1057:

    I was making a point that the up and coming generation isn't nearly as interested in the 1/4 acre burb house as previous generations. Even the ones that can buy it.

    I'm now lost as to your point.

    1058:

    "...just stop doing that one thing and the problem will be solved."

    Differentiating. (As in, the calculus operation.)

    1059:

    I have no idea whether your are right or wrong in what you are saying about home buying trends in the US, I'm just trying to offer some friendly advice about how to persuade others that you are right.

    Chances of this would be improved by not doubling down on the anecdata, and not demanding that everyone else look up evidence to refute your conclusions before you have provided any evidence to support it.

    1061:

    Well, in the US, the GOP represents billionaires, period.

    On the other side of the Pond, given that London was vehemently against Brexit, I'm not sure who the Tories represent, other than vulture capitalists.

    1062:

    I disagree.

  • Mid-fifties for cars? Sorry, it was well-known in the 80's that Henry Ford (the original) sent men to junkyards in the mid-TWENTIES to find what parts had not worn out in junked cars, so he could make those parts cheaper. Admittedly, it got worse in the sixties.

  • Horse hockey. First of all, that's what scripted automated regression tester tools are for. Secondly, a lot of them are obfuscated crap, with new "features" that no one will actually use, but is a marketing ploy for you to shell out more money for something that you have that already works fine.

  • 1063:

    I'd have been happier with a smaller lot... and a freakin' bigger house. This property "lists" at just under 1600sqft, which is smaller than any place I've ever owned (other than the immobile home my late wife and I had). You think that's big enough? Really? Do you have room in your closets for all your clothes, winter and summer, and all your coats?

    We're crammed in... and the half-basement (I'm in a bloody split level, which, having never lived in one, I didn't realize until after I bought it is the STOOOPIDEST DESIGN FOR A HOUSE ANY HUMAN HAS EVER COME UP WITH. (Let's just start with upstairs is always hotter than the 2nd floor of a 2-story (US def), and the downstairs is always colder.

    1064:

    Ok, I don't understand any of this. I fly maybe once or twice a year, mostly to cons. I'm trying to remember how many times in the last 10 years that I got on a plane and was not told to not spread out, because the plane was full... and at least half the time, I'm waiting to board, and I hear them begging for people to take another flight because they're overbooked.

    1065:

    Apropos of nothing at all I have just discovered evidence that one of the hazards faced by ancient miners was invasion of their mines by subterranean tentacled monsters. http://filehost.serveftp.net/pic/chthonic-squid.png

    1066:

    Throwing back to earlier in the thread, but this week I bought the first 3 and read the first 2.5 of the Commonweal books. I'm very much enjoying the concepts and exploration of the implications of magic in a human world.

    Side musing: The concept of magic and magic power in many fantasy settings, and most particularly the Commonweal setting, seems to correlate in a lot of surprising ways with money in our own world.

    A vastly powerful system that is at best weakly understood and very unevenly distributed. Some users, through various combinations of heredity, luck and diligent effort become more or vastly more skilled at accessing and using that power to wreak small and large changes on the world - often to their own benefit at the expense of others. Groups of users can combine to wreak large scale effects on the world, up to and including the State level, though at times some individuals can achieve levels of power to rival such agglomerations.

    And of course, power feeds the powerful and subjugates those without access to the power. Sufficiently adept users of the magic power can affect changes and people around the world.

    1067:

    ...Oh, and similar things remain a hazard in modern times. Here we see someone exploring the disused copper mines at Coniston, oblivious to the small simian troll squatting on the flat bit watching the descent and the sabre-toothed gargoyle emerging from the rock face lower down. http://filehost.serveftp.net/pic/creatures-of-stone.jpg

    1068:

    I bought The March North, and, taking a break from reading Part II of Tom Paine's Rights of Man, started reading. Story starts on page 6? I'm on page 12, and I keep going "huh?"

    I seem to be expected to understand all the references - sheep dhearing team? 5 ton sheep? the Line?

    I'll get back to it, but it's thrown a lot of "huhs?" at me in the first few pages.

    1069:

    DavidL: when someone who has gone to great pains to emphasise their own expertise and breadth of knowledge, while belittling that of others, makes an elementary mistake it's all too common for them to have done so hoping no-one else will notice that they are cheating. In this case you appear committed to that error, apparently preferring that I think you dishonest.

    As far as me not criticising OGH's flying, that's because he's not here defending his right to fly. I have previously discussed this with him and he indicated that he had not just thought about the issue, he had made efforts to mitigate and minimise the problem. He also pointed out that being a slightly famous author who refuses to fly means he would stay a slightly famous author, but flying both makes him money in the short term and offers a large potential future payoff.

    That is in quite stark contrast to your efforts. You are vigorously defending your right to purely optional short term enjoyment that imposes long term costs on everyone.

    1070:

    but flying both makes him money in the short term and offers a large potential future payoff.

    This is the reason for 95% plus of my family's flying also.

    As long as you try and pound my position into a preconceived box of thought you'll be wrong about me.

    I have NOT belittled others here. At all. I have continually skipped over obvious wrong conclusions by people who have no idea what they are talking about. It's not worth the argument.

    But it is interesting to see people write long missives on subjects where their starting points are totally wrong but assuming they are correct the rest of the missive does make sense.

    As to my breath of expertise there's a lot of things here I just read to learn things. But silently listening doesn't count I guess. And when corrected with facts I accept it.

    1071:

    I don't understand any of this. ... I'm waiting to board, and I hear them begging for people to take another flight because they're overbooked.

    I think we're on the same side of this. Flights in the US and from my little investigation, the EU, are fairly full.

    The other part my rarely seeing flights with 20% empty seats or more is I and my wife are on flights all the time with fewer than 5 empty seats. Or 0.

    Someone I know flew NYC to Rome a year or so ago and they were oversold by 18 or so. The offer to volunteer bump was up to over $1500 per seat.

    Again 88 people per plane flight for commercial aviation in the US just doesn't add up. Based on the FACTs that I know.

    1072:

    just under 1600sqft, which is smaller than any place I've ever owned (other than the immobile home my late wife and I had). You think that's big enough? Really? Do you have room in your closets for all your clothes, winter and summer, and all your coats?

    For you it may not be. My wife and I are living in basically 1000sf of our 1800sf house. And could live in less with a better layout. We do in our apartment in another city.

    Outside of buying "as an investment" the trend of buying huge houses for a few people is slowing or even reversing as the population ages. A large part of my point other than the younger people trending differently than the post WWII people is that our tax laws and zoning in much of the US encourages going larger.

    1073:

    I'm in a bloody split level, which, having never lived in one, I didn't realize until after I bought it is the STOOOPIDEST DESIGN FOR A HOUSE ANY HUMAN HAS EVER COME UP WITH.

    This has come up before. I also have a split level. And there's all kinds of wasted space for how I live my life also.

    A big driver to this and the typical 2 story suburban house in the US is cost. I know some people here disagree but smaller foundations and roofs are cheaper by $10,000s. My information comes from people who BUILD the things. Contractors and architects. And it reduces the secondary costs in that the lot size can be smaller than for a ranch (one story) giving the same amount of yard space.

    Back to your comment is that split levels do NOT fit the life styles of more and more people. Much of the design is based around how a family once lived in the US.

    1074:

    I'm just trying to offer some friendly advice about how to persuade others that you are right.

    The debates about housing, density, zoning, and such in the US are driven by profits (builders/developers) and emotion.

    The first H talks about a lot around here.

    The later is very much like the recent food discussion. I like this food therefore everyone will like it. That someone disagrees with an opinion and the disagreement is reasonable is just not comprehensible to so many people. Fact don't matter in this debate. At all.

    1075:

    I've made maybe too many posts here in the last 24 hours. So I'll back off a bit.

    My ending comment in some of the heated discussions is that we all have a tendency to have that vampire trait of not seeing ourselves in the mirror. I know I do at times and try and realize when I'm doing it.

    And I know I'm not alone in this tendency.

    1076:

    That confuses me: how is one roof on a two-storey house less expensive than the two roofs on a split level?

    _____ | |______ | | | ______| |____|
    1077:

    I loathe HTML's default formatting. Let me try again

    |.....|_ |........... | |..... | |_|

    1078:

    A complicated roof or layout of anything in a house will cost extra. But in general foundations and roofs are about total area. A split level reduces foundation and roof footprint by 1/3. A 2 story by 1/2. (Yes there is some loss due to space for the stairs as you just can't stack the rooms.)

    A roof is more than just rafters and shingles. Sheathing, exterior trim, gutters, attic space to vent and regulate, and so on. On the 2 story portion you get to just run the wall up which is easier than making it long. Your plumbing and wiring runs can be shorter. HVAC ducting is shorter. Drainage off the roof is less. It all adds up. And in the end you get a "bigger" yard.

    1079:

    whitroth @ 1061: Well, in the US, the GOP represents billionaires, period.

    Very few representatives or senators are themselves billionaires, so they occasionally have warm feelings for mere multi-millionaire.

    1080:

    DavidL: belittling by ignoring what other people say in favour of emphasising your own expertise, and in 1071 you continue to do that. "I know THE FACTS, the expertise of others means nothing to me".

    I started from the premise that you're a habitual flyer who needs to avoid acknowledging the cost of your lifestyle. You haven't even tried to suggest I might be mistaken. You asserted that any contribution to the problem that's less than 3% can be ignored, even when reminded that all contributions can bee broken down to smaller than that (and almost always are when it's nihilists talking).

    To echo Stephen Colbert.. "and now this"... https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/22/how-can-we-all-fly-less-by-embracing-skype-and-facetime-like-our-kids

    1081:

    Sadly <pre> tags are stripped, so there's no realy way to do "ASCII" art because you can't predict what font other people are actually using. But you can embed images (privilege likely to be revoked if abused, I suspect). A wee sketch in a very basic image editor, then a trip to imgur or somewhere... bob's your parent's sibling*.

    • PC culture has gone too far!!!
    1082:

    Back to your comment is that split levels do NOT fit the life styles of more and more people. Much of the design is based around how a family once lived in the US.

    Dunno why they built them, but yes, they were of an era. Like Frank Sinatra movies.

    The wonderful book How Buildings Learn has a chapter on a house that was owned by a single family for centuries. The incredibly simple trick is that the upper story was divided into two apartments, but the ground floor was shared. This meant that the house was usually occupied by a parent and child, or by two siblings. When one died, there was a survivor with motivation to continue living there. Contrast this to the single-family house, which gets sold when Gran dies, because the kids are already living elsewhere (and probably far away).

    .. the lot size can be smaller than for a ranch (one story) giving the same amount of yard space.

    Personally I am enamoured of the idea of houses built out to the edge of the property, with the yard in the center, inside. AKA, an atrium. There are some communities where people use their yard. But in the US, it's common for yards to be essentially unused and pretty much decoration. What a waste.

    1083:

    But in the US, it's common for yards to be essentially unused and pretty much decoration. What a waste.

    I confess I use my yard less than I would like to. Too little privacy, and frequently too much noise from the neighbour two houses down (or hours of 70s music from the chap behind, when he's gone inside and left the radio playing). If a summer day is quiet I'm happy to be out there reading — less so when I have to hear half a shouted business conversation or endless repeats of 'classic rock' I didn't like the first time round let alone now.

    Which is also why I'm not considering downsizing to a non-detached dwelling — too many horrible neighbours when renting, and my nieces have had too many horrible neighbours at various condos. (And the problem of a ghost hotel popping up next door and not being able to do anything about it is also a turn-off.) At least with a detached house I have a significant air gap.

    Much as I like the cool toys cheap rare earth magnets have made possible, I could do without the modern habit of playing your music so loud people can feel it blocks away. When I was a teenager, a loud car stereo was one that you could hear in the back seat :-), and ghetto blasters were this weird American thing that hadn't caught on in Canada. (Or at least, the idea that it was other people's problem if they didn't like your music, rather than you're for bothering them, hadn't caught on.)

    1084:

    "whitroth @ 1061: Well, in the US, the GOP represents billionaires, period."

    They couldn't win elections if that were true. They actually represent conservatives, which, as rich people tend to be, rich people are over-represented. But most conservatives (at least in the US, and I think probably in other places) are not rich, but lower down the economic scale. The reasons are complex, having to do with an inherited disposition toward risk aversion and deference to authority, and like most human dispositions, are often not well grounded in empiricism. Whatever one thinks of them, they have been and will remain a consistent percentage of the population (roughly a third)--they aren't going anywhere.

    And yet circumstance is not without it's own effect. In times past, enough of them have supported reform legislation that social conditions progressed. One presumes this will happen again in the future.

    1085:

    DavidL: belittling by ignoring what other people say in favour of emphasising your own expertise, and in 1071 you continue to do that. "I know THE FACTS, the expertise of others means nothing to me".

    I gave facts as I know them. I do have knowledge about load factors and such due to airline operations being an area of casual interest to me and flying standby. If the typical flight had 88 people IN THE US (as I stated many times) I'd rarely NOT get on a plane. Or there would be a LOT of plane flying empty. And via my wife I have more knowledge than the average consumer. She's a senior manager with 30 years of contacts inside of an airline. But I'll deffer to any airline exec past or present who shows up here. You want someone with knowledge to talk about how planes can trim out to save fuel I'm all ears. My knowledge of that is less than someone with an hour of flight training. But in terms of load factors or "getting cheeks in seats" I have a lot of direct knowledge.

    And if someone shows me I'm wrong on anything I'll admit it.

    I started from the premise that you're a habitual flyer who needs to avoid acknowledging the cost of your lifestyle. You haven't even tried to suggest I might be mistaken. You asserted that any contribution to the problem that's less than 3% can be ignored, even when reminded that all contributions can bee broken down to smaller than that (and almost always are when it's nihilists talking).

    We all have a life style that is against no climate change whatsoever. I admit that. You said CS has to fly to maintain his income. So does my family. When we fly for pleasure we fill empty seats that will not be sold. Period.

    How about we outlaw SiFi Cons? There's a lot of travel involved in those. Flying and other.

    As I said I so many things in my life to mitigate my climate change effects. Large and small. But I don't yell at others or brag about them here.

    1086:

    Which is also why I'm not considering downsizing to a non-detached dwelling — too many horrible neighbours when renting, and my nieces have had too many horrible neighbours at various condos. (And the problem of a ghost hotel popping up next door and not being able to do anything about it is also a turn-off.) At least with a detached house I have a significant air gap.

    And this is a real issue. Which is why we switched to a top floor apartment. Doesn't completely fix it but helps.

    1087:

    In terms of off the charts living there is this thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Park_Tower

    I saw it on a recent visit to NYC and was amazed at this thing. Looks like a glass pencil planted next to Central Park.

    Well I guess it is getting billionaires out of their mansions and freeing up those housing unit for millionaires. Unless they are being bought and not occupied or only occasionally so.

    1088:

    They actually represent conservatives, which, as rich people tend to be, rich people are over-represented.

    The GOP seems willing to dump conservatives too if that keeps them popular with authoritarians.

    1089:

    whitroth @ 1051 Indeed The major banks & The Corpration were & are all in favour of "Remain" - as was the great majority of the population. It's the reactionary "counties" who are in favour of Brexit, mostlly because they are xenophobes. And a few vey influential "complete rotters" who happen to be very rich & own newspapers. Which makes wanker Corbyn's comments about a "Bankers Brexit" so wrong .... Which reminds me, I see the lying rot about the "London metropolitan elite" has spread to some liebour-party contestants for their leadership.

    Dr Mk Key @ 1084 Erm ... no. "Conservative" in the USA means FASCIST, can we please get that right. It's heading the same way here, too ( Though a lot of actual conservatives haven't realised it yet ) I don't think BOZO is an actual fascist, but he's acting as an ennabler for some, & even employing at least one - Cummings.

    SS @ 1088 The GOP seems willing to dump conservatives too if that keeps them popular with authoritarians. Yes, this. Looks to be happening here, too.

    1090:

    Charlie and moderators.

    I let things get out of hand. I really disagree with what Moz says but my responses were not constructive. Sorry if I moved the tone of this place in the wrong direction.

    Later

    1091:

    I don't want to fan the dissent, I really don't, but I would like to ask the collective brains trust.

    I live in Australia, an island that has not one ferry service to anywhere.

    Is like to go to New Zealand. Not for any good reason. I just feel happy when I'm in a place with great scenery, nice weather and fewer concentration camps.

    I've flown 5 times in the last 30 years, but I don't want to do that again.

    I've looked at cargo ships. It's absurdly expensive, you need to book a year in advance and I can't find anyone who's done it in the last 5 years. All the websites that list that route, when you click on them it's either "route canceled" or "est sailing 16 November 2008"

    Any ideas?

    1092:

    I have nothing constructive to suggest but would like to note that the cargo ship option is also theoretically available and practically useless for shorter routes.

    In theory it is possible to get a space on a ro-ro cargo boat from the UK to Norway, thus avoiding flying or the absurdly long drive from Denmark.

    In practice you have to spend several hours being bounced around before being informed that although you can buy a ticket institutional customers take priority, and you shouldn't expect to get on the boat if there is an unexpected fish lorry or whatever. No refunds.

    1093:

    "The long drive from Denmark"? Yeah, once you're into driving a car, you're in danger of pissing away any environmental saving from not flying. But there's a ferry from Denmark up to Stavanger, which gives you west Norway. (Walking through south Stavanger a year or two back we were surprised by the signs to Denmark, before realising that was a ferry terminal we were near).

    There used to be ferries across to Göteborg/Gothenburg — my wife took them in the day when she lived in Stockholm — but those appear to be gone. Perhaps, like the night trains, they'll be back. The Swedes are looking at starting a new night train route from Malmo to Paris — the ends of that aren't too far from an Oslo to London itinerary.

    1094:

    Yes. It seems possible to book on a cargo ship, but not short distances. I could get a trip to Southampton, but not across the ditch to Littleton.

    1095:
    I'll get back to it, but it's thrown a *lot* of "huhs?" at me in the first few pages.

    It does that. It's very in media res - it just throws you into the Captain's head, and it'd be weird for someone to think "as you know, Bob" speeches, right? Things tend to get explained retrospectively - they're mentioned or seen and then in a chapter or two (or in a very rare instance, a book or two - sometimes it takes seeing the inside of another person's head to grasp what's up) you get some gesture at an explanation.

    My experience was that accepting the initial confusion and just diving in was more than repaid. And that things were much clearer on re-reading.

    1096:

    Which is why we switched to a top floor apartment. Doesn't completely fix it but helps.

    My first apartment in Ottawa was on the top (17th) floor (overlooking Hogsback Falls). It was great until I got new neighbours just below me who played their custom stereo loud enough to shake things off my shelves.

    Polite requests got me sworn at. Reports to management went nowhere. Police had higher priorities. Bylaw enforcement only worked 9-5, and only worried about street-level noise.

    It was one of the reasons I ended up moving.

    1097:

    There are these things called "trains"... ;-)

    Yes, the route via Sweden is much longer, but trains are faster than ships.

    1098:

    I think there are good arguments for everyone just doing less of the things that are harmful due to the way that things currently work. I really do. It’s all very Kantian, and if everyone really did it there would be significant reductions in emissions, plastic waste pollution, particulates, CFCs, everything. Maybe not enough to save us at this stage, but enough to blunt the edge of the blade so to speak. But we know that individual action, even if everyone does the right thing all the time, isn’t the whole of the story and organising ourselves just slightly differently can have larger impacts (from subsidising renewables and electric cars to defunding fossil fuel resource extraction and even mineral exploration). There’s also an argument that expecting everyone to do the right thing all the time is not entirely reasonable. For that to even be possible we need a social, economic and cultural environment that is MUCH friendlier to such things.

    In the meantime life just has its own priorities. I’ve personally flown from BNE to MEL four times in the last year for family business I could not avoid. I flew to Sydney the year before that just for a funeral (returned same day). We’re approaching a world where some of these sorts of life events might be possible to take full part in without physically being there, with telepresence getting better even while we aren’t even noticing it. But it’s not all there and we have some distance to travel (and frankly a bit of older generations dying off) before it’s as universal as it would need to be to eliminate many of the reasons people fly.

    Haven’t got answers of course. “History, to the defeated, may say alas but cannot help or pardon.”

    1099:

    Scanners

    If you have a no longer supported scanner you really like and a Mac then Vuescan software is totally worth it.

    I was mistaken. They have Mac, Win, and Linux versions. Fantastic piece of software.

    https://www.hamrick.com/

    1100:

    paws @ 1097 Trains are often more expensive than flying - & it's VERY annoying. Now that it appears the the Brit guvmint's insane paranoia about foreigners on trains is about to be overcome (Even with brexit) I hope to be able to go to Germany, later this year, with only two changes - at King's Cross & Amsterdam. [ Rather than Brussel/Amsterdam or Brussel/Köln ]

    There used to be a Newcastle - Oslo ferry service, which I think has long since gone, for instance, & Harwich - Esbjerg. Governments are to blame for a lot of this - dithering about whether to bulid HS2, whilst still pushing 3rd runway at Theifrow is a classic example

    1101:

    "The GOP seems willing to dump conservatives too if that keeps them popular with authoritarians."

    Depending on what you mean by conservatives, of course. I just go by whomever self-identifies that way, nevermind why. Over 60 million people voted for the D in 2016, they weren't all billionaires.

    1102:

    I was measuring the price of the trip in carbons, not kroner. But I agree about the money angle.

    1103:

    Trains are often more expensive than flying - & it's VERY annoying.

    Certainly the case in Canada. Doesn't help that freight trains get priority over passenger trains.

    So more expensive, slower, with a much higher possibility of serious delays (and running out of food).

    1104:

    Tell me about it.

    I'm not convinced that the Canadian is the most fuel efficient way to cross the country. I know it's a train not a plane, but it's hauling a lot more per passenger than just a seat and some hold luggage.

    1105:

    “Not flying”

    So the goal is for everyone to die slightly slower?

    We are well beyond the stage where voluntary reduction and lifestyle changes are going to have any meaningful effect on the final outcome or timelines

    In some ways lobbying for these things are counterproductive as it imparts a false sense of hope and optimism that leech energy away from more meaningful draconian changes

    1106:

    We are well beyond the stage where voluntary reduction and lifestyle changes are going to have any meaningful effect on the final outcome or timelines

    Yup.

    Due to the sheer scale and magnitude of the problem, any effective solution will by necessity have to be compelled by authority from the top-down.

    Climate change is a done deal. Either we'll engineer our way through it, or we won't.

    1107:

    gasdive @ 1094: Yes. It seems possible to book on a cargo ship, but not short distances. I could get a trip to Southampton, but not across the ditch to Littleton.

    I'll say up front that I know nothing about the subject - this is pure speculation, but I wonder if you could book a cargo ship to some place like Shanghai and then another trip from Shanghai to Littleton? I've heard about people doing something similar in air travel, where booking two round trip tickets and only using one part of each to get where you want to go when there's no direct connecting flights. I don't think the airlines like it much, but it's possible ... or at least it used to be.

    Otherwise, I wonder if it's possible to make a connection with someone who owns a yacht? I know there are lots of those down under and their owners often sail between Australia and New Zealand. Maybe you could hitch a ride with one of them?

    1108:

    Robert Prior @ 1096:

    "Which is why we switched to a top floor apartment. Doesn't completely fix it but helps."

    My first apartment in Ottawa was on the top (17th) floor (overlooking Hogsback Falls). It was great until I got new neighbours just below me who played their custom stereo loud enough to shake things off my shelves.

    Polite requests got me sworn at. Reports to management went nowhere. Police had higher priorities. Bylaw enforcement only worked 9-5, and only worried about street-level noise.

    It was one of the reasons I ended up moving.

    Before I left I'd have opened an all-night bowling alley in the apartment.

    1109:

    Robert Prior @ 1103:

    Trains are often more expensive than flying - & it's VERY annoying.

    Certainly the case in Canada. Doesn't help that freight trains get priority over passenger trains.

    So more expensive, slower, with a much higher possibility of serious delays (and running out of food).

    Here in the U.S. (and probably there in Canada) you take the train when the journey is more important than the destination. If I need to get somewhere in a hurry, I drive. Partly because air travel is so expensive & renting a car at the other end I'd end up spending more than I spend driving (and probably have a larger carbon footprint). Plus, I'm usually traveling for photography and my gear would eat up all of my baggage allowance. If I drive, I can load it all in my car & even take the little doggy along.

    Trains are cool IF the experience of traveling by train is the primary reason for taking one. Not so much if you're looking for an efficient way to get from here to there.

    1110:

    That's the result of policy decisions. We could engineer our way out of that, but cars produce a sense of privacy, convenience and control. The only bright side is that air travel is becoming such a hassle that people might take an alternative just out of sheer desperation.

    Are electric cars the answer?

    1111:

    Due to the sheer scale and magnitude of the problem, any effective solution will by necessity have to be compelled by authority from the top-down.

    That is the nihilist view summed up very well.

    We have no evidence that "authority" is even interested in that, and a lot of evidence that if they tried there would be civil war. Can you imagine what would happen in the US if their government passed a law outlawing infernal combustion engines that came into effect in 2025, and then was forced to use the military to override "state's rights"?

    So the question is: for those who want to mitigate the problem, what can we do?

    1112:

    Just a couple of things not quite related ... but I thought y'all might be interested.

    On the discussion of housing costs & who can afford them & what to do about it, the local NPR station WUNC had a program today on North Carolina's housing crisis, which is not much of a crisis if you've got a high enough income, but is becoming a problem for those whose incomes are below median.

    https://www.wunc.org/post/canary-coalmine-north-carolina-s-housing-crisis

    Wake County revalues Real Estate on a 4 year cycle, and I just got my most recent property tax NOTICE OF APPRAISED VALUE. My home's "value" has gone up by 60% (from <$200K to >$300K for an approximately 1000 sq ft run down wood-frame 2BR Bungalow on 0.10 acre) since 2016.

    I'm not in danger yet, but I can foresee that if things continue the way they're going I could very well end my life living under a bridge somewhere.

    The other thing, Slate Magazine released their EVIL corporations list of the 30 corporations that pose the greatest threat to individual liberty:

    https://slate.com/technology/2020/01/evil-list-tech-companies-dangerous-amazon-facebook-google-palantir.html

    I have at least one former employer on there.

    1113:

    It occurred to me that one parallel is with men in feminist groups. It's common IME to be told "it's nice that you're not an overtly sexist arsehole, but that's not enough, you need to be working to improve men as a whole because that's what we're here to do".

    Likewise, reducing your personal contribution to climate change is a necessary but not sufficient action.

    Those like Unholyguy and Fubar007 who are echoing the polluter lies that not we should do nothing, and that even trying is futile, are the enablers and apologists that feminists complain about. They're actively trying to prevent other people fixing the problem by making those arguments.

    1114:

    Are electric cars the answer?

    There's no "THE answer", any more than there is "one source of emissions that if removed solves the problem".

    Electric cars are part an answer. They're definitely something that some individuals can do, replacing your fossil car with an electric one is almost always less bad. But there are "even less bad" options for a lot of people, and those are generally preferable.

    But, and this is important: do what you can. Each time you have to make a choice, try to make the better one.

    That might be as simple as not murdering someone who annoys you, or as complex as spending a spare hour researching ways to reduce your food waste when you could be watching TV.

    1115:

    like to go to New Zealand

    As someone else who lives in Australia and would like to visit NZ, I have to say that there's no good option. I spent way too much time on this a few years ago and in the end decided that it's not possible at a price I'm willing to pay (at least for a holiday trip).

    The least bad option if you have the skills (which I do, to some degree) is crewing a yacht but the price there is that coming back is likely to be via Tonga on a leisure yacht or very unpleasant on a racing yacht*, and either way scheduling is in the hands of others. You might get a month in NZ, you might get a year, and you won't know until you try. If you haven't been on a modern racing yacht overnight I suggest you're not really qualified to make that trip. Here's a look at the inside, now imagine putting it in a really big washing machine ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDcWkjjr8_0

    In the end I decided that I would fly over and visit my grandmother before she died rather than after because I figured she would appreciate that more. My mother eventually came to terms with that decision (although she has also said she'd rather I attend her funeral than see her again while she's alive). Viz, there are a whole lot of costs that I have already paid, because I personally think those costs are less important than mitigating climate change.

    I do have video chat, and unlike with some older people I get to see her face in the video chat rather than, say, the ceiling or the cat or the floor :)

    • downwind to NZ is going to be bumpy and wet, but coming back is going to be very as well as taking longer.
    1116:

    I just realised that the zazzle t shirts aren't available in infant sizes. Because the obvious place to see "warning: contents may be destiny-entangled horrors from beyond spacetime" is on a baby. Or perhaps a pregnant woman. Hmm.

    (from the merch links on the right of this page)

    1117:

    That is the nihilist view summed up very well. Personally I reduce it to a back-of-the-envelope estimate. Roughly, RCP 6 is where we're probably headed and is 1000 petagrams (1060+/-200, gigatons), and roughly, one can reasonably estimate that the average reduction in human population over possible futures in RCP 6 is ~4 billion (agriculture and fishing break, badly. Thermonuclear war, global economic collapse, are possibilities, etc.). That's 250 tons per 1 fewer human. Roughly, my western lifestyle (no kids, fwiw) is killing someone every 60 years through global heating. (Carbon to CO2 is 1 to 3.67.[2])

    Then plug in a lowball low-income-country value of a statistical life, $125000(US),[1] and fudge/convert the fewer humans to statistical lives by dividing by two, and you get a price in lives per ton for carbon of $250. Minimum. Put in developing/developed world numbers and the price is in the thousands of dollars. That ignores other economic costs.

    [1] Income Elasticity and the Global Value of a Statistical Life (10 May 2017 W. Kip Viscusi, Clayton Masterman) [2] The biggest source of mistakes: C vs. CO2

    1118:

    I've considered that. There are such routes, and I wouldn't even have to change boats. Many ships do a circuit. The problem is that we're getting on towards 8-10 000 dollars for a one way trip to NZ. Flying is 250 dollars. If I was going to blow 10k on reducing my footprint, I could buy another 13 kW of solar. That would eliminate about 10 tonnes of CO2 production a year for the next 25 years.

    The sailboat idea is a good one. I did some Google and I've started stalking a Facebook group where skippers and crew arrange trips. I might give that a go. Thanks!

    1119:

    Exactly. When I fly about half my allowance is photography gear, and it's a hassle to get it through security. Driving is easier (and I'm mobile at the far end). The train is the worst that either: limited luggage, no real security when I'm asleep (if I'm travelling alone), and I still need transport when I arrive. (Canadian public transit doesn't really incorporate airports as part of the system* — or train stations either in many cities.)

    I do want to ride the Rocky Mountain Express one day, but other than that I'd rather drive so I can stop when I want to take pictures.

    *With the possible exception of Vancouver's Skytrain, but if you're trying to catch a flight you'd better plan around rush hour — I've been stick at a station waiting for a train with room to board, as the train to the airport also serves Richmond. (Ended up hopping a train the other way, riding it to the terminus station, and switching back; the train was full at the terminus station, so everyone at stations after that couldn't get on.)

    1120:

    Yeah, I'd already discarded the "crew on a racing yacht" idea. No one would let me on one. Closest I've come is wiping down Ragamuffin underwater, but I didn't even ask about going aboard.

    As you say, getting back is going to be difficult. No one wants to beat back across the Tasman. Some people might hit somewhere in Polynesia and then across to Queensland. Which gets me to Cairns... So do I get a Greyhound back from there? (Greyhound has signed a deal with Adani to transport workers).

    And I'm not keen on being away for a year either.

    Or I could buy a boat and then sell it, or take a cruise, which I'm not sure would be less than flying anyway.

    Or just not go.

    1121:

    Moz: That is the nihilist view summed up very well.

    Realist, not nihilist.

    Can you imagine what would happen in the US if their government passed a law outlawing infernal combustion engines that came into effect in 2025, and then was forced to use the military to override "state's rights"?

    That's partly why that will never happen. There isn't going to be a single, overnight mass change like that. Any effective solution, if one ever materializes at all, will be phased in over time.

    So the question is: for those who want to mitigate the problem, what can we do?

    As an individual, yet effective on a scale to significantly address the problem? Nothing.

    It's in the hands of the oligarchs, the industrialists, and the political leadership.

    Those like Unholyguy and Fubar007 who are echoing the polluter lies that not we should do nothing, and that even trying is futile, are the enablers and apologists that feminists complain about.

    "Should" has nothing to do with it. You're presuming a level of individual agency and power that doesn't exist.

    They're actively trying to prevent other people fixing the problem by making those arguments.

    I'm not trying to prevent anyone from doing anything. If someone wants to de-carbonize their life completely and go "back to the land", go for it. I don't care. They just shouldn't kid themselves that that's going to stop climate change. It may make them feel better and thus have value as a kind of placebo, but that's about it.

    1122:

    I happen to agree with the idea of "do what you can."

    Unfortunately, I'm still flying, because I have a spouse who really doesn't want to check her privilege, and ending up divorced is a worse solution than minimizing my flying.

    That gets at a fundamental point: yes, we're stuck in a fundamentally destructive system. And yes, dropping out of that system is punished both by criminal law (everything from zoning codes to criminalization of homelessness and migrants) and by military action (subjugation, forced migration, genocide). Therefore, it's worth thinking about the stuff Moz is talking about as a form of nonviolent action. Be willing to suffer in a good cause, whether it's paying extra to decarbonize and electrify your house, diversifying your diet to be more low-GHG, being the asshole who stands up and says its not okay that your friends go halfway around the world to eat junk food and zone out on the beach, and so forth.

    There's a huge amount of inertia built into civilization, but we are looking at a mass extinction that human as a species probably will survive.* To me, that's the reason to pull as hard as you can now, that little 5,000,000-20,000,000 years of suckitude that some of your cousins' descendants will have to deal with. Now I can't be Greta Thunberg or even Moz, but I can do my part. And hopefully, the more people like me do, the more that can be done. We'll see if it's enough, or if the Four Horsemen (pandemics, famine, war, and the resulting deaths) are what save us. I'm betting on both, if anything.

    *In previous mass extinctions, the animal species that survived tended to be generalists that denned underground. Humans can do that, although we don't particularly like living in dugouts, caves, or abandoned subway stations and storm drains. And if you look at the number of underground bunkers being built around the world, I'm pretty sure some group's going to be in the right place with the right tools and skill set to make it. Somewhere. And those meek people will inherit a very different Earth than what we were born into.

    1123:

    Just in general, if you want to get an idea of how we can get There from Here, with There being a world with many fewer billionaires, the answer is WW1, that being Web War 1.

    We're coming to the end of petroleum-based wars, and entering an era of hybrid war, where infowar, psywar, and hacking are as important as tanks and aircraft carriers. Now obviously we're still going to use artillery and so forth, because innovations in war are always mixed in, not replacements. But not only are the resources for simply grinding your enemy into the dust through industrial supremacy running out, but it's so simple to subvert the control systems of a military (by hacking an election a few years prior, perhaps) that everyone's busy innovating in the new arena, without having good field data on how well it works when fully unleashed. This has happened before, as in the lead up to WWI.

    That's the danger I suspect we're facing. Not necessarily nukes, but getting every city hacked in a way that causes mass destruction without a single bomb being dropped.

    But there's an opportunity there, too. For example, if Facebook gets every server bricked, that's the end of Big Z as a political force. And as a billionaire. Bricking the Amazon cloud will cripple the Buzzkill, while making it impossible to ship oil by borking shipping systems will rapidly destabilize the plutocrats running Saudi Arabia, Russia, and the US.

    Better yet, there's the potential death of offshore financial centers (another innovation of the British Empire, initially). Most billionaires control their wealth, they don't actually own it. And while a lot of that control is vested in pieces of paper, most of the international control depends on electronic communications. Break the backbone of the internet, and they lose control. Now obviously the smarter ones are already thinking about this, and thinking about how they can grab stuff through bluff, bluster, and fait accompli and come out ahead through the crisis. But this rupture is also an opportunity to really, really level the playing field. If the wealthy can no longer control their wealth and no longer use it to control politics, who owns their countries?

    Maybe it's time to start thinking about this...

    1124:

    "...as complex as spending a spare hour researching ways to reduce your food waste when you could be watching TV."

    That long? I reckon that's a really easy one.

    1125:

    "reduce your food waste"... I reckon that's a really easy one.

    It's all about where you start from, both how much you waste and how much you know. Some people really do not know that composting is a thing they can do at home, for example. They know the word, sure, but it means "some kind of farming thing" or "I think the councils does that - something about trees?"

    I just spent some time in our work kitchen while a coworker used about 20 litres of water to wash their cup. Then threw out the pot-scrub thing because it had visible signs of use. I was grinding my teeth to leave it at "there's a drought, can you turn the tap off when you're not actually using it please". This isn't a challenge, BTW, it's just an example of how "what everyone does" varies from "turn tap on, squirt 10 ml of dishwashing liquid onto scrubber, scrub cup while occasionally rinsing it, more detergent, more scrubbing ... throw out filthy scrubber" right through to the discussion I had a while ago about using cotton rags for dishwashing rather than buying a plastic dishwashing brush (in a context where using a whole litre of water to wash a sink full of dishes is normal).

    But I did not start where my coworker is and one day say "oh, climate change is real" then {abracadabra} instant filthy hippy. I made one small, obvious change at a time for 30 years and now I'm a happy hippy.

    1126:

    A long time ago I saw some published argument that it was better to use disposable cups than pot ones. Turned out they were assuming that the methods of your female cetacean apex predator, with hot water, would be used on every pot mug after every mugful. Well, sure, in that case the disposable one couldn't even provide enough combustion energy to heat the water up.

    On the other hand my own method is to give the mug a quick swill with cold water, which gets out everything that matters, then when the swill-resistant component of the residue has built up enough to significantly reduce the capacity, scrape it out with a knife and start again. In this case, which they did not consider, pot lasts for years and years while a disposable mug would long ago have disintegrated.

    "can you turn the tap off when you're not actually using it please"

    Oh, yes, and people cleaning their teeth who don't just turn the tap on to wet the brush at the start and again to rinse at the end, but leave it running away down the drain to no effect the whole time. Seems to be pretty well everyone as far as I've observed, and I find it really weird. Even though I was taught to do it like that myself. One day I suddenly thought "just what the fuck is this tap running for?" and have habitually turned it off ever since, and I really don't think that's so staggering a revelation that nobody else will have thought it.

    1127:

    “ So the question is: for those who want to mitigate the problem, what can we do?”

    The answer is simple. As an individual you can’t do anything. It’s already in the air. man

    The game is gonna play out how it plays out, humanity will either rise to the challenge as a group or not

    The best case at this point is a whole lotta people die and then those that live mobilize and construct a very different kind of society out of the ashes.

    For right now, take that flight to New Zealand, might as well enjoy it while it lasts.

    When someone has terminal cancer you don’t guilt them into going to the gym

    1128:

    One of my early school memories is of a teacher saying (raging really) they grew up on tank water. They couldn't believe the "running tap" method of tooth brushing when all you needed was one glass of water. Wet the brush, brush the teeth. Two sip-swill-spit cycles, rinse the brush in the remaining water and you're done. The student sitting next to me turned and whispered "if he only knew I stand under the shower to brush my teeth..."

    1129:

    Pfui.

    There are so many of these: --I'm going to die anyway, so why should I care about the future? --I make a good living, so why should I care about the future? --I'm going to hell anyway, so why should I care about the future? --I'm going to heaven anyway, so why should I care about the future? --I'm too poor to make a difference, so why should I care about the future? --I've rich enough to keep my family safe, so why should I care about the future?

    Notice that the excuses are contradictory, but the question is, why should I care about the future?

    The best answer is that humans are a species that evolved to need the care of, and to care for, other humans. Therefore, I can confidentally say that those who cared about the future in your past left behind more offspring (of the body and of the mind), than those who did not care about the future.

    So if you don't care about the future, what does that say about your fitness as a human being?

    1130:

    But this rupture is also an opportunity to really, really level the playing field. If the wealthy can no longer control their wealth and no longer use it to control politics, who owns their countries? Maybe it's time to start thinking about this...

    Yes... (Some of those are considered to be well-engineered, but e.g. global supply chains often have single points of failure, sometimes identified, sometimes not.)

    1131:

    Just for the record, bold mine: Closer than ever: It is 100 seconds to midnight - 2020 Doomsday Clock Statement (23 Jan, 2020) Humanity continues to face two simultaneous existential dangers—nuclear war and climate change—that are compounded by a threat multiplier, cyber-enabled information warfare, that undercuts society’s ability to respond. The international security situation is dire, not just because these threats exist, but because world leaders have allowed the international political infrastructure for managing them to erode.

    I wish they hadn't used the word "cyber", but it is still the truth.

    1132:

    Oh I care about the future fine

    At some point hopefully we as a species will start to actually go after the problem in meaningful ways and then I’ll jump right on board

    But right now this is all nothing more then wankage that won’t work that you lot do to give yourself the illusion that you are doing something and give yourself false hope

    Magical thinking basically

    And that I’m against

    So yes show me a plan. And if your plan is “I will somehow magically change billions of people’s lifestyles just by yelling at them one by one to not fly in airplanes “ then I call bullshit

    It won’t work, it hasn’t worked it can’t work you have no reason to think it will work . This is self delusion . It’s not catching on. It doesn’t start with you. The little match is not starting the raging forest fire. You are not being the change you want to see in the world. You have been trying this tactic for 50 years and gotten nowhere

    The talking monkey’s are not gonna pay attention until a shit ton of them die. That’s how they work

    1133:

    "Climate Change" generally When it comes down to it, only a few countries REALLY matter here, though "Europe" can do it's bit by real virtue-signalling & moving in the right direction. The ones that really matter? USA, India, China, AUS, Brazil ( going round eatwards ) Though kicking the Germans really hard about coal-burning & converting to nuclear for baseload everywhere would be a good idea. { I'll ignore the screams of the fake-greenies at this point ] Assuming Trump loses later this year, what are the chances? India? Chona? Brazil?

    Dr M Key NO Electric cars are not actually an answer to anything ( Except, possibly, inne-city pollution ) It's guvmint policy or lack of it or subservience to vested interests that has mad unviable in USA/CAN - it damn nearly happened here (The crook Marples followed by years of anti-rail inside what is now the DfT (Who are still at it ) Rail is perfectly viable, but you have to kick the politicians. I see that NY state's governer has succeeded in driving out the man who was set to get the NY subway to work, because he (the governer) could not themn diver monioes away from the city to his friends out in the countryside (etc) .... which leads on to Moz @ 1114 Yes - I waste tiny amounts of food - but then you can probably guess why that is so Actually simply NOT replacing my admittedly diesel Land-Rover could be viewed as the correct environmental option, because no new car is being made to replace it ... (maybe) - certainly when coupled with the fact that if I'm not cycling or walking well over 85% of my travelling is on public transport.

    unholyguy @ 1132 Disagree Oddly enough the Brit guvmint seems to be moving in the right direction, whilst still suffering from impulses in the wrong one. STILL trying to build runway 3 at Theifrow being probably the most obvious .... And still suffering from Grayling-overhang & bleating about railway electrification being "expensive"

    1134:

    Importance of reducing potable water usage. This is a variable, depending rainfall as well as energy cost of treatment.

    I really only know about rainfall, and I'll suggest that the energy cost of treating "raw water" to make potable water is roughly constant.

    Here in the West of Scotland rainfall is high enough that we actually have to drain excess water out of the raw water reservoirs to prevent flooding when he dams (or weirs) are overtopped. This may even be different in Edinburgh; I'll leave comment there to people like Charlie and/or Nojay...

    1135:

    "if he only knew I stand under the shower to brush my teeth..."

    I got sick of showering in a bucket then carrying the water outside. Especially when it's 30 degrees on a cool day at the time I want to shower. So now I go outside and hose myself down while standing between two fruit trees.

    Partly because I am a clean hippy :)

    And partly because if you don't want to see it, don't look at it.

    (Sydney is currently running a coal-fired desalination plant and stage 2 water restrictions which ban most outdoor water use. They haven't yet armed the council rangers who enforce those restrictions, but I will pass along Unholyguy's comments and perhaps they'll be allowed to deal with offenders USA-appropriately).

    1136:

    I'll suggest that the energy cost of treating "raw water" to make potable water is roughly constant.

    Not even close. In a lot of places groundwater only needs a holy seal affixed (Christchurch used to be like that before the far right got their hands on the water), in more places the rainwater needs filtration and supervision, right down the line to reverse osmosis which turns the water into liquid electricity. Sydney has both the latter and used to have the former but then Union Carbide turned up and never you mind.

    With a bit of care and attention tank water is drinkable without treatment in many places, so DIY self-sufficiency depends mostly on rainfall. A lot of Adelaide hills do this because they have the rainwater and the alternative is filtered "water" from the world's longest open sewer (sorry, "the Mighty Murray River")

    1137:

    For starters, lots of people know about AGW/climate catastrophe, a fair proportion of them think it's a bad thing, and some are even changing their votes on that basis. It's got to the point where even Our Rupert has been forced to acknowledge it (and lie directly about wanting to make the problem worse). That's major public pressure for change, and it did not exist in 1990.

    In engineering terms, even in the USA somehow you have fuel efficiency requirements for cars, solar PV is popular even with many hard brown groups, there are restrictions on many emissions and even a degree of social disapproval of those who shoot endangered species for fun. Sure, those whose votes count don't want any of those things, but you have them anyway.

    So there's a whole lot of causes for optimism, but there's also a need to keep pushing things along. Misanthropic types like me sniping from the sidelines are never going to lead mass change, but I do vaguely hope that a combination of occasional public writing and (increasingly) being a grumpy old man who has seen it all before will help on the margins.

    It's also nice to see the result of some of the slow activism. At best people think the result of 10+ years of planting, watering and weeding is a natural feature :) We also get right wing crypto-fascists announcing that "we have partnered with corporations to introduce a container deposit system" but giving no reason because they do not want to talk about a 20 year grassroots campaign pushing for it.

    Underneath it all is the question: do I want to make the problem worse, or better? I'm an activist, not a passivist.

    1138:

    I’ve found myself bending toward nihilistic despair quite often in the last couple of years. It hasn’t meant I’ve given up, though, and you could say that where it has slowed me down it’s also given a bit more focus. I’m retraining, it started as stuff that could conceivably work in my existing career, but passing through a sort of life-stage-gate in the last 12 months has led to a fork in the road between skills for things I enjoy doing and skills for social and environmental justice (the career stuff no longer even bears consideration). We’ll see how 2020 goes, but I’m probably going to do a change-my-career-and-be-an-environmental-lawyer manoeuvre in the next 2-3 years. I’m interested in refugees and human rights too, and even in family law (main concept here being that we need all the people we can to line up against the Howard era changes to the Family Law Act, and any work you can do to stop abusive fathers getting custody is savagely needed).

    I mean I want to write stuff and make music too, but I’m pretty sure I don’t really need more extra degrees for that (much as I’d like to do that anyway).

    1139:

    At the risk of being repetitive, most people don't live in Australia, and even fewer in the Australian "coastal strip" your identifiable "worked examples" come from.

    As for Christchurch, which one? I know of 2, separated by roughly 12_000 miles! There may be others.

    1140:

    I assume Moz means the one in S Island that had a bad earthquake a couple of years back, not the suburb of Bournemouth!

    1141:

    There are indeed things called trains. I investigated and deemed them unsuitable.

    Effectively there is a cost function that has inputs such as travel time, price, ease of transporting luggage, proximity to where you want to be etc. It's different for each type of trip and person.

    The things I wanted to do involved being dropped at some obscure trail head with a certain amount of fairly heavy equipment and somewhere to stash the equipment I wasn't using on the day.

    The sweet spot for that was a small car containing 3-4 people and a ferry. When the boat stopped running it kind of stopped being worth going.

    1142:

    So the question is: for those who want to mitigate the problem, what can we do?

    I was thinking about setting up a website something like Orion's Arm, but the future history/stories that would be written there would have to do with what life is like in 2080, assuming a very optimistic scenario. In other words, give people something to aim at, with a very high level of scientific accuracy.

    1143:

    I’m not arguing that a bunch of things aren’t happening

    I’m arguing too little, too slow, too late, ship has sailed, you won’t get there from here by doing it that way

    The data on this is clear, despite all the things you mentioned Carbon Emissions are going up not down

    We are suffering from three interweaved mass delusions

    1: global warming isn’t happening 2: we can fix it with tweaks to our existing lifestyle without making major sacrifices 3: major sacrifices are needed but we can voluntarily convince people to make them

    These are all untrue and actively harmful and I am not interested in participating in any of them. I don’t see them as helpful but harmful

    1144:

    The short, simple answer to that is to install a showerhead with a built-in valve. When you're fully wet down you turn off the water-flow at the showhead, soap yourself up, then turn it back on when you need water again.

    1145:

    Unholyguy: The talking monkey’s are not gonna pay attention until a shit ton of them die. That’s how they work

    Yep.

    My guess is if/when a major food shortage/famine occurs in the U.S. or Western Europe and large numbers of middle-class white people die. That, or another climate-induced disaster of similar scope, will be the catalyst for significant action. From there, it will all hinge on whether it's possible to rapidly (i.e. in a timespan of years to a few decades, not centuries or millenia) pull carbon out of the atmosphere en masse and at scale.

    Until then, the frog will continue to boil. Because humans.

    1146:

    FUBAR007 There's another scenario ... which is looking increasingly likely, namely that "nature" takes a hand. It is entirely possible, maybe even likely, that a "new" disease ... like say Ebola or the current Coronavirus really does get loose & does a 1918 or a 1348 on humanity as a whole. More than 45% survive, but thineed out enough that then, keeping the climate at reasonable levels is both possible & desireable.

    1147:

    @1146: Greg, in that scenario, I'm not sure whether I'd be happier being among the dead or the living. I shudder to imagine the horror of burying/burning 4 billion corpses. And yeah, that'll add more CO2 to the atmosphere as well. It's kind of like the simple version of the three laws of thermodynamics: you can't win, you can't break even, and you can't even get out of the game.

    1148:

    you can't win, you can't break even, and you can't even get out of the game

    And the corollaries:

    Capitalism is based on the assumption you can win.

    Communism is based on the assumption you can break even.

    Mysticism is based on the assumption you can get out of the game.

    1149:

    Re: Environmental nihilism

    There's an old saw that says "All politics are local".

    Individual activism can energize communities. Communities elect officials who carry out local policies that can create local environmental impacts along the lines of Heteromeles' zoning activism, tree planting, mass transit, etc. Communities also elect regional and national politicians who can execute policies that have regional and even global effects (hey, what if we stop burning the Amazon Basin?).

    I'm looking forward to being much more of a pain in the ass on this issue once I retire in the next couple of years. It's good to have a hobby.

    1151:

    All of that is too small and too slow to address the issue

    1152:

    @1155: To quote Teddy Roosevelt: "Do what you can, where you are, with what you have."

    You may have surrendered. I have not.

    1153:

    I'm looking forward to being much more of a pain in the ass on this issue once I retire in the next couple of years. It's good to have a hobby.

    Speaking as someone who's effectively done that, I'll give a piece of unhelpful advice:

    Get two hobbies.

    One is saving some part of the world. The current Measure A in San Diego County was created and spearheaded by a retiree who decided to be a nuisance when she retired. She's pretty good at it too, which is why I help her as I can.

    The other hobby is for saving your sanity when the Unholyguys of the world, and their enablers, start to get to you. There are a lot of them. And sadly, we can't give them absolution for doing nothing, whatever their reasoning, so we've got to deal with them.

    1154:

    I don't think the deaths of Middle class white people will worry them.

    They currently are happy to admit in public that they don't care who burns to death if the chances are they didn't vote for the right party. (you couldn't make this shit up, even the Mandate isn't that evil)

    https://www.bordermail.com.au/story/6486801/fire-dead-probably-voted-greens-barnaby/

    1155:

    Being realistic and surrender are not the same things.

    You can fight on, knowing full well it's hopeless.

    1156:

    ...hang on, I thought the LOTR discussion was in the next thread...

    1157:

    most people don't live in Australia, and even fewer in the Australian "coastal strip" your identifiable "worked examples" come from.

    My response was to the suggestion that drinkable water takes the same amount of energy to make it drinkable regardless of source, and I was trying to suggest that there's drinkable groundwater and rainwater in many places, and those take very little energy to make them drinkable than seawater does. Hence the original suggestion was likely made without thinking about those two extremes.

    1158:

    I am not interested in participating in any of them. I don’t see them as helpful but harmful

    Why spend so much time arguing that no-one should do anything to minimise or mitigate them, then?

    That's the bit I really don't understand. You're not saying "I think we've lost, there's no hope, I give up, I'm just going to sit here and wait for death because I'm too cowardly even to get out of the way", you're hanging around so you can persuade other people not to fight. It's really hard for me to see that as the action of someone who thinks the climate catastrophe should be avoided.

    1159:

    True, but Dead Lies Dreaming is going to be about ordinary people living in a horror setting under the rule of unimaginably powerful evil, so it kinda fits here too…

    1160:

    install a showerhead with a built-in valve

    Right now my water consumption is basically the sum of "water for trees in garden + a toilet flush every couple of days". Really filthy greywater that I don't want on the garden goes into the toilet bowl as a partial flush (urine really stinks after a few days, and in the middle of the night I can't be bothered going outside to pee). But showering inside means I have to carry water outside, and also the bucket isn't 100% effective so there's some water being wasted.

    Some stuff is hard just because of the people around me. On one side is someone who (illegally) hoses their lawn some nights, on the other people who do two loads of washing a week. I'm just aware that insofar as they're aware of the drought and water shortage, their response is mostly "don't get caught" rather than lifestyle changes.

    But the lawn waterer is a Muslim lady who won't look at me if I force her to talk to me... having a chat about water use is out of the question. I have dropped a council leaflet in her letterbox, since the council haven't done a drop. The other side... young couple, very conservative working class, she's trying very hard to be a good wife which means lots of cleaning. She's a typical under-30 in that she votes Green, she recycles and so on, but she's also struggling a bit with the filthy hippy stuff. I do make comments, and they do make changes, but I don't want to overwhelm them.

    1161:

    Your water use is really impressive (my comment wasn't aimed at you - I already know that you're ahead of me on this stuff!)

    1162:

    Whelp you started it by guilt tripping people over flying in airplanes

    But if you actually read my posts rather then just filling in what you expect to see from inside your mind, I am actually not hopeless and not surrendering

    I think everything you and Het are doing is so much feel good bullshit but that doesn’t signal surrender just feedback that your strategy sucks

    I’m saying the time to fight has not arrived yet. The alcoholic has not reached rock bottom yet. And that you don’t accomplish much by trying to convince the alcoholic to drink a bit more moderately. He’s an alcoholic. He is not in control of his drinking

    In order to get out of this mess we created for ourselves we are going to need to hit rock bottom and then make some pretty radical changes which we are simply not ready to make yet

    When that change does come it will come sudden hard and messy. And that is the time to strike

    1163:

    Let me predict. This is what will happen

    Short term say next 5-20 years not much. People will talk and there will be much hand wringing about things and dead Koalas and some set of people will do some useless shit and feel good about it and co2 will continue to climb

    And then at some point global society will severely break. Severely. As in lots of dead people. Don’t know if it will be hurricanes famines fires or what but mega deaths close enough so you can smell the corpses.

    Existing power structures will strain and then they will snap. And it’ll happen fast because when strong systems reach their limit they don’t snap slow. Because regardless of how much money the oligarchs have once the vast number of live monkeys smell the corpses of all the dead ones, it won’t be controllable. The center will not hold

    And then there will be a void

    And the absolute key question is what will fill that void?

    That is literally the only only thing that matters. There will be this month to a year period where the whole war will be won or lost. And that is the time to fight. The rest is just the quiet before the storm

    Will it be something sane and revolutionary? Or something crazed and fascist?

    If we get the good outcome we get the good ending.

    And that is why it doesn’t matter a rats ass if you fly to New Zealand tomorrow

    1164:

    I think you're mostly right. But what we do now to set things up; the scientific advancements we make and/or don't make, the infrastructure which is/isn't available, the general knowledge of what a sane future looks like... all these things need to be in place for when the alcoholic hits rock-bottom.

    1165:

    But if you actually read my posts rather then just filling in what you expect to see from inside your mind, I am actually not hopeless and not surrendering

    I'm sorry, all I see from you is a stream of hopelessness and arguing that other people shouldn't try to fix the problem. That's not inside my head, that's what you actually write. Check your own comments in this thread, for example.

    For all I know there's a stream of research papers or a long history of bureaucratic activism with your name on it, but since you never link to those things all I get to see from you is cowardice and defeatism.

    1166:

    Just remember, the future is not a binary, where either nothing changes or it all goes to hell.

    Instead, there are a range of possible futures, including the Inverse Little Ice Age, where 30% of the population dies of unnatural causes over the next century, there are revolutions everywhere, and 400 years later the naysayers believe nothing happened, to a replay of the PETM (which is what we're on track for now, but with a colder starting point), where we get a meso-scale extinction event, to whatever we get if we really do blow all our fossil fuels in an attempt by the Russians to have Australian-style barbeques in Siberia. Still the thing to remember is that even a total nuclear exchange is pitifully tiny compared with Chicxulub, and a lot of things survived that catastrophe.

    Given the range of possible choices, I'd say that giving up right now is rather silly. After all, the Star Trek universe is premised on WW3 happening between 2026 and 2053, but resulting in only the death of 600,000,000 people over that time, or less than 10% of the population we currently have. That doesn't sound so horrible, does it?

    Anyway, the sad part is that we're all going to inevitably die, so we might as well admit that fact and figure out what we want to live on after us, rather than trying to make the world into a pyre for the Boomers and GenX to burn our failed dreams on.

    1167:

    Do not mistake motion for progress. Trying is meaningless. Do or do not. There is no try. You get no points for trying hard and failing. It’s no better or worse then any other kind of failing. It is no better then doing nothing at all. Especially if you had no chance of success from the get go and you knew it

    Either come up with a plan that has a chance of actually working or stop wasting your time

    I’m sorry if you find a results oriented mindset disheartening

    Trout, I agree with you and it is on things like that I choose to spend my energy and time

    1168:

    I know the future isn't a binary. (I'm fifty-plus despite the boyish enthusiasm.) But I've also frequently posted here that I don't think we'll do much about climate change until we've lost Florida, which is very much the same as Unholyguy's idea about the U.S. as an oil addict. So will there absolutely, certainly be a crisis? I'd give 70-80 percent odds that this is how things will play out, and if you don't like climate change, making sure that there's a well-researched, carefully-reasoned plan that can be placed in front of the government after Miami becomes uninhabitable is probably your best strategy for actually winning politically.

    That doesn't mean you shouldn't do other things - the kind of work you're doing now is very valuable, both for sound scientific reasons and because it means you've got some idea what a good solution looks like, plus you're learning how to deal with government. (And who knows, you might actually solve the problem before we can develop the crisis.)

    I think a three-pronged approach is called for. First, figure out what the best way forward is from the moment of crisis and get ready for that moment. Essentially, keep updating and advancing the detailed implementation plan for the Green New Deal and make sure you have lots of people who have a general understanding of what a good plan looks like.

    Second, do what you can for the present to educate people and solve the problems in the here-and-now. Not only is this immediately beneficial, it also get you ready for The Big Crisis. (This last bit is what Unholyguy is getting wrong; everything you're doing now is rehearsal/credibility building for that moment when you testify in front of the Senate during the crisis of 2041. Failing to do stuff right now means you don't get a voice when things turn nasty.)

    Third, develop some kind of refuge for knowledge and science, a "Motie Museum" for the human race. This is the backup plan.

    But it's 70-80 percent likely there won't be major government movement on climate change until we lose Florida.

    1169:

    As is often the case, everyone is right.

    Flying to NZ will bring forward the apocalypse by a few thousands of a second.

    So it's clearly immoral.

    But, no action will be taken to avoid the apocalypse. So does it matter if the point of no return is 20th January 1996 or 16th December 2003? Particularly as the point where it became to late to avoid an apocalypse is in the past.

    1170:

    Either come up with a plan that has a chance of actually working or stop wasting your time

    Already have, and it's been going on for over two years now.

    Anyway, the real victim here is OGH, since the growing negativity at the bottom of the list is usually a sign for him to come up with another blog post to shut us up, and he probably has better things to do right now.

    1171:

    no action will be taken to avoid the apocalypse

    See, this is where I get confused. People who say they are willing to take action to avert the apocalypse, when told what they should do, say "oh, but I won't do that" or the classic Australian "we're too small to have any effect so refuse to contribute".

    Unholyguy demanding certainty before doing anything is just awesome. I look forward to reports that he has starved to death because he wasn't sure whether there was anything to eat and refused to go and look without being certain that he would find some.

    1172:

    That's not inside my head, that's what you actually write.

    Sorry but you seem to continually take someone saying 2+2 and come up with the answer of 10. Or 10315. Or blue. What I call forcing others into a viewpoint box. Your box.

    Now rail at me and how ignorant I am. I no longer care.

    1173:

    Failing to do stuff right now means you don't get a voice when things turn nasty.

    Exactly. Me adopting most or some of moz's lifestyle means I'll be totally ignored by all the people around me. Neighborhood up to national. If I stick around and work on alternatives to the way we live now I might move the needle so things are as bad later.

    But it's 70-80 percent likely there won't be major government movement on climate change until we lose Florida.

    I'm thinking this will be sooner rather than later. Being under water isn't going to happen till long after they have a huge drinking water problem. And the Miami area needs a LOT of fresh water. And it is running out now. I'm curious as to what the Tallahassee folks will do when it moves from a hassle to Miami is dying of thirst.

    1174:

    Nuts.

    NOT AS BAD

    1175:

    "The Laundry Symlinks"?

    1176:

    I'm curious as to what the Tallahassee folks will do when it moves from a hassle to Miami is dying of thirst.

    Keep in mind that the crisis may well be a matter of business too. It's very possible that, for example, the insurance companies will refuse to issue a policy to anyone with a foundation less than 10 feet above sea level, or that there will be a crisis involving the price of oil and associated stocks as it becomes obvious that electric vehicles and green power are cheaper.

    1177:

    My point is that fresh water is fast becoming an issue. You can dither for years about building foundations and such. People need water every day.

    And Miami is a HUGE airport hub and non trivial shipping. Plus all the cruise liners that dock there. Of course those are options which are causing some of the issues.

    Of course cultural issues will have no impact. Yep. Check Roger.

    Miami is almost literally a different world from the northern end of the state culturally. And there's that fantasy middle. If the fantasy can't operate, tax revenue drys up and ....

    1178:

    My point is that fresh water is fast becoming an issue. You can dither for years about building foundations and such. People need water every day.

    Agreed completely. But other factors are involved as well. Unfortunately, the necessity to bring water in from elsewhere may be more a matter of "boiling the frog" than "enormous crisis."

    1179:

    Heteromeles @ 1129: Notice that the excuses are contradictory, but the question is, why should I care about the future?

    Well, it would be nice if some day in the future the world is a better place because I was here, not because I'm finally gone from it.

    1180:

    You have certainty. Certainty of failure.

    • your approach has a proven track record of failing to change people’s lifestyles
    • even if you were entirely successful you would not avert the apocalypse
    • you are out of time

    You keep dancing around and finding excuses or ways to misdirect away from those three facts . I’m sorry they are so hard for you to process im sure there is a lot of sunk cost for you . But they are true nonetheless

    I don’t generally demand certainty of success in a plan but I do demand the possibility of success

    As far as Hets plan whatever it is I cannot comment directly in it because he hasn’t shared it. But in the two years he’s been working on it, He has not decreased the amount of co2 our species has dumped in the atmosphere. It has in fact increased

    1181:

    David, if I'm making stuff up it should be really easy for you or Unholyguy to go back up the page, find where you said something that contradicts my point, and quote it. I regularly paste in links and quotes, but you don't seem able to do that. Why?

    1182:

    Dude, you are the classic "the perfect is the enemy of the good".

    I sort of agree with you, in that I don't think there is "one single plan" let alone "one single action" that with solve this problem.

    Where I differ is that to you "I cannot completely solve this problem all by myself" means that you must work to prevent anyone taking any action to mitigate the problem, whereas to me it means I should do whatever I reasonably can to reduce or delay the problem.

    As I implied above, you're definitely going to die eventually so why don't you kill yourself now? You can't prevent your death, why take any action to delay the inevitable, even something as trivial as eating? That has a proven track record of not preventing death so you shouldn't bother.

    1183:

    Because it’s false hope dude and false hope is also the enemy

    If all the people who actually notice the problem and care about it get distracted by doing useless shit it lowers the chance of spending time and effort on something meaningful

    One of the keys to solving this problem to shift people away from the “how can I do my part and feel like I am solving the problem, whether it actually works or not” toward demanding actual results, from themselves their leaders and from their peers

    One of the reasons the left has been so ineffective for the last 20 years is it is stuck in this magical thing world where motion = progress, this idea that all the little actions are somehow guaranteed to add up to the desired result as long as everyone’s heart is pure

    Again you anaologies about death and eating and whatnot are pure attempts to avoid these facts . You are not addressing my argument you are running from it

    You are not in fact “doing everything you can to reduce or delay” because if you were you would start with admitting your current strategy is bankrupt and you would search for a better strategy

    I never once asked for perfection or a perfect solution. I’m asking for a reasonable chance of success

    1184:

    mass delusions 1: global warming isn’t happening 2: we can fix it with tweaks to our existing lifestyle without making major sacrifices 3: major sacrifices are needed but we can voluntarily convince people to make them

    This is the closest I've seen to DavidL or Unholyguy explaining why they want everyone to work with them to make the problem worse.

    I gather than until the crisis actually hits no-one should even do any research, let alone make concrete preparations, for the crisis.

    We've seen that in Australia just recently, where both NSW state and Australia federal governments said "don't listen to those alarmist fire chiefs and weather people, nothing bad will happen". Worse, they decided to act as if that was true so they cut firefighters and national parks funding.

    Those people might be kind of useful for you two to look at, to get an idea of how that approach plays out in practice. Because it turns out that unlike you our Prime Munster and Premier don't have the courage of their convictions and are not willing to die politically to make a point. Instead they have reversed course and lost way more doing so they if they'd not made the problem worse in the first place.

    Scotty from marketing used to be able to carry off the "daggy dad" thing, but now most people seem to regard him as the worst sort of marketing scum. Who knew that in the field of people paid to tell lies that marketers were hated more than politicians? Dear old Gladys, on the other hand, just looks like that aunt who's sliding into dementia. She has good days when she seems almost like a functioning human being, and bad days where she's just sad and lost. She doesn't understand why people hate her, she doesn't remember doing all the nasty things people keep blaming her for and she wishes we didn't either.

    1185:

    How you managed to go from what I said to “we want everyone to work toward making the problem worse” is exactly what DavidL was referring to in his “1+1= blue” comment

    I would love to see people working on effectively solutions toward making the problem better

    You just haven’t presented anything like that . What you are presenting is “I will keep doing the same old things that have been proven to have minimal impact and you should to “

    1186:

    In 1184 you've given a long form of what I said earlier, and indeed what others are arguing.

    no action will be taken until the apocalypse hits

    Reducing my footprint now doesn't change anything, it actually delays action. If anything, it's counter productive.

    Scotty from marketing and his ilk don't respond to frog boiling at all. If we'd had these bushfires creep up on us, there would have been zero action. Instead, coming suddenly, they've forced a slight turnaround.

    Cars came on us slowly, but cars kill far more people. We've had 33 killed over 8 months of fire. 33 dead on a 4 day long weekend doesn't even make the lead story on Tuesday's evening news. Building highways has destroyed far more homes than bushfire ever has. There's a house destroyed by a runaway car or truck almost every day. It's "just one of those things" that everyone accepts. A slow disaster will be the same. To have any meaningful response we need to be lucky enough to have a disaster that unfolds quickly but not so quickly that we can't respond to it. The more resilient we make ourselves, the later real action will be taken.

    1187:

    You are certainly correct that The Left could use a new set of tactics and strategies. However, individual efforts do make a difference, as do small efforts: If you move enough grains of sand, you end up with a very nice beach.

    It's too bad that you and Moz can't keep both thoughts in mind simultaneously. New tactics. Small efforts matter. These ideas don't contradict each other.

    But that idea that small things don't make a difference? That's bullshit.

    1188:

    Yes I believe many small efforts can add up to produce a big result

    However there is no magic to that, and the left often treats this as semi magical thing . That if you can just get a bunch of people to do X you are guaranteed to achieve Y cause magic . There is no magic. There is just cause and effect. Sometimes all the little pieces added together turn out to be big enough but sometimes they don’t

    1189:

    So, do any of these pique your interest? They'd have a meaningful short/medium term effect and could easily be [made] disruptive enough to enable well-prepared agents of change to bake in meaningful long-term changes: (1) An actively sustained global economic collapse. [4] (2) A regional thermonuclear war, repeat as needed. [3] (3) Multiple staggered deadly global pandemics. [1] All are ... not improbable. They're all a very fucking big lift ethically. There are others (some much less ethically problematic); these are obvious ones.

    [1] Homologous recombination within the spike glycoprotein of the newly identified coronavirus 2019-nCoV may boost cross-species transmission from snake to human (pdf, 22 January 2020)[2] [2] Slightly out of context but it caught my eye :-) ... "The cuts are good and they're pretty fucking clean, and the splice is pretty well done across the Time-Line but... There was never a fucking snake in it." [3] Rapidly expanding nuclear arsenals in Pakistan and India portend regional and global catastrophe (02 Oct 2019) Recovery takes more than 10 years. Net primary productivity declines 15 to 30% on land and 5 to 15% in oceans threatening mass starvation and additional worldwide collateral fatalities. [4] Has to be sustained: Rapid growth in CO2 emissions after the 2008–2009 global financial crisis

    1190:

    Without the exclamation point in the history books of an apocalypse, big change seems unlikely, and unlikely to stick if we get it. On a positive note, any reduction of the biosphere's "Indigestion" will make life more tolerable for our descendants, if any.

    1191:

    Bill Arnold - Likelihood of those happening, I think is 3 / 2 /1 in order of decreasing probability. Or even 3 ( SOMETHING is going to spike a pandemic, there are already too many rats in the box ) followed shortly by 2 ( India-Pak most likely ) as some religious nutter decides that the pandemic is "gods judgement" & decides to help it along.

    1192:

    exactly what DavidL was referring to in his “1+1= blue” comment

    Yep. It was not about facts but totally distorting what others are saying. And it has been done on other subjects at least over the last few months.

    As to change. So should I drop out of my surrounding society, adopt Moz's lifestyle and be considered a whack job? Or should I try and move the needle with the few 100 to a million or so in this area?

    I tend to feel the later is a better approach. On most any subject.

    1193:

    One of the reasons the left has been so ineffective for the last 20 years is it is stuck in this magical thing world where motion = progress, this idea that all the little actions are somehow guaranteed to add up to the desired result as long as everyone’s heart is pure

    In the US there is a new book out by a former R election consultant. Former as he has decided the results that brought us DT are a bad thing.

    His basic premise is that while the left (in the US) was about policies that were right, good, and just, the right was all about just wining. Whatever it took. And now we have DT.

    1194:

    Let me put some numbers on that for you, so you can understand why what Moz is doing is more sane than what you're proposing.

    For me, where I live, biking for errands is tricky to dangerous, because the road that connects me with the rest of the world has a 50 mph speed limit with a bike lane on the side. I've done that sort of thing, but it's a bit nerve racking for getting groceries. So I'd rather have a car (Public transit won't be in my area for another decade, a political/planning example of what's known locally as a "San Diego Special.")

    Anyway, so within about five years or so, I need to have two electric cars, one of which has at least a 400 mile range for family reasons, a house battery of a size capable of charging at least one of the cars once a week, a solar array to feed the battery, and a house remodel to get rid of all gas-powered appliances.

    That's around US $100k, most of it for the cars. That's my cost of decarbonization. Multiply that by 11.5 million families in California, and you're seeing my chunk of a billion dollar problem. Adopting early, spacing it out, and planning for technologies, as well as becoming politically active to help bring costs down, seems like a sensible thing to do for multiple reasons. We've already got one car, the solar array, and done a partial remodel, so we're halfway there.

    If you don't want to change, you're helping keep the costs up for me, slow the adoption of new technology for everyone by stagnating the market, and setting yourself up to be one of those elderly people who will be on the wrong side of the technological divide when it comes, whether it's decarbonization or a crash. And you think you sound so very sensible right now.

    1195:

    I'll admit it's interesting and a bit sad to watch the Chinese response to the coronavirus, but I can understand why they'd be worried about an unknown virus hitting the bottom of the sigmoid transmission curve right around the Lunar New Year, when a billion people or so are supposed to travel. If that coronavirus turns out to be unusually deadly, that would indeed be a bad situation. I'll even applaud the Chinese for doing the equivalent of cancelling Christmas to save lives. I have trouble seeing US leaders having the huevos to do that, because the plutocrats must have their profit, regardless of the cost.

    Meanwhile, with little reporting, 8200 people have died of influenza in the US this season so far.

    Will Pakistan and India launch missiles, or is it a case of maintaining the status quo by ramping up? That's an interesting question. I'd actually bet the latter, because that's the way nuclear confrontations have gone so far.

    Now, if you want another disaster scenario, try this:

    Organized protests inspired by Hong Kong spring up on the mainland, in what comes to be known as the Renlidao Rebellion. Due to official incompetence and corruption, they grow in scale and organization to proportionally match the Taiping Rebellion of 150 years ago (perhaps there's even an evangelical angle to the RR?)

    This unrest, coupled with political problems in Melbourne (fire/drought/coal intoxication), London (Brexit), Tokyo (?), and the US(!) disrupt the influenza surveillance system, halting influenza vaccine production. For a few years a lot of people get sick and the number of deaths goes up by two orders of magnitude, but, well, it could be worse. We all get on with getting on, as we did when we were children and there weren't vaccines. Face masks and fist bumps become more common during every flu season.

    Then pandemic influenza breaks out, and (per the Spanish Flu) 3-5% of the global population dies (100-400 million). Does this collapse civiization? It didn't 100 years ago. I'd guess it won't again. But you never know, do you?

    1196:

    Heteromeles In reverse order No 5% of the population dying through a pandemic will slow us down a little, maybe cause enogh thought toif not stop really significantly slow the gallop to the (climate) precipice. Yardstick? The effects of "The Death" in Europe 1348 onwards - which killed somewhere between 20-50% of the populatiopn, according to locality ... but society carried on, staggering, but carried on. Your transport problems are .... not good. Compare with most Brit cities, whe we have some sort of half-decent public transport systems

    1197:

    “ That's my cost of decarbonization

    Het, I already have most of that and have for five years now . Only one electric car rather then two because, range. I have years of experience running a lifestyle like that and I know where the holes are

    For one thing that’s not decarbonization that’s not even close. There is still all the shit you consume. Plus the grid power you will back on during bad weather. Plus heating. These things may be minimal for you but won’t be for most Americans

    Plus the vast majority of Americans who only make $50k/year are not going to spring for a $100k investment (really more like $200k for any that live with winter ) the price point is still not where it needs to be to achieve mass adoption

    I think this goes squarely into the “investing in the tech needed to rebuild after the crash” rather then “a practical plan for preventing the apocalypse”

    1198:

    While I agree with your hypothesis about people not getting it until it's way too late, I think everyone will prefer (though probably not until after the fact) that we put our backs into attempting to stop the apocalypse Right Now. There are a couple things you seem to not understand, and I'll unpack them for you.

    Apocalypses are tremendously expensive. Sometimes (witness the Romans) you don't get useful successor states for hundreds of years. Not only does the stockmarket crash, but so does food-distribution, then civilization crumbles and a majority of the population dies. If we're lucky, we'll become Afghanistan. If we're unlucky we'll become Khmer-Rouge-era Cambodia or if we're really unlucky, even worse.

    So the first thing you don't understand is that overturning our current style of civilization and paying $200,000/family is cheap in comparison to the alternative.

    The other thing you don't understand is that in an Apocalypse you are extremely likely to experience death in a very personal, intimate and painful fashion, as are your children and romantic partners, everyone well-before their time, and you will get to watch this happen, unless you are one of the lucky ones and die first.

    The fact that this apocalypse is likely to play out on a thirty-year timescale doesn't make it any less apocalyptic. We will all have time to mourn our past actions, or lack thereof, while watching everyone die.

    Or to phrase this properly in my native language, "Dude, Apocalypses Suck!"

    1199:

    "Compare with most Brit cities, whe we have some sort of half-decent public transport systems"

    Eh... yours does, but it's exceptional. A handful of others are large enough to go a bit the same way but rather less effectively. The kind I'm used to you have the station, or maybe you don't, and pretty much fuck all else of any use.

    1200:

    I agree with you

    I don’t understand why you think what you just said contradicts anything I am saying

    What the stupid monkeys should be doing and what they are likely to do are very different

    This doesn’t make the assessment if what they are likely to do any less accurate

    1201:

    We're criticizing you for a) giving up, and b) saying that we're stupid for not giving up.

    Anyway, I suggest slap a DO NOT FEED THE TROLL sign here and move on.

    My apologies to everyone for trying to get someone to deal with his depression by criticizing him. It was counterproductive.

    1202:

    Where I disagree with you is on the attitude of "oh noes, is hopeless!"

    1203:

    I’m not giving up

    I’m saying the time window for preventing the apocalypse with the methods you are offering has passed, that battle is lost, time to move on to the next battle

    So whether or not you like it, it’s time to switch gears to managing thru apocalypse rather then continuing the methods that have failed in the vain hope they will magically work to prevent it

    As added and timely evidence

    https://cicero.oslo.no/no/posts/nyheter/carbon-capture-and-storage-is-necessary-to-keep-global-warming-below-2c

    Because you don’t want to hear and internalize these things you keep evading or branding me as “hopeless” but this is actually your own cognitive dissonance speaking. You cannot admit that battle us lost and move on to the next battle

    1204:

    When Churchill gave up on the battle for France and evacuated via Dunkirk to England was that “hopeless”?

    Or was that a good strategist accepting a campaign was lost and preparing for the next campaign ?

    This is no different

    1205:

    I kind of agree that we are not going to be able to stop things going very bad. But it’s not a binary, it’s not all or nothing, do or die. That’s why this whole discussion seems a bit silly.

    Remember Kant? The usual formulation of the categorical imperative is “act as though in doing so you can imagine it as a universal law”. That is, would the thing you are doing be a good thing if literally everyone did it? Right away it tells us things like lying is wrong, because if everyone always lied there would be no useful communication, and making a billion dollars is wrong because... well anyway, there are things it shows us that are hard to say whether they are right or wrong otherwise. It’s not really a precept, more a sort of tool for understanding things.

    Anyway, people trying to decarbonise their lives are thought-leaders and exemplars. Why? Because even if there is a technical solution* we’re going to have to do that anyway. It will always be enormously cheaper not putting the carbon in the air than it is taking it out again. Versions of normal are resistant to change, but there’s a world of difference between “I’ve never heard of anyone doing that” and “there are some (very clean) dirty** hippies in my street doing that”.

    But the main point is that it isn’t binary. Sure one person or family doing it won’t make much difference, but a few thousand, or around the world a few hundred thousand could buy a village in Tonga an extra year, for instance*. If what we think is correct, we’re heading full steam toward suffering and misery on an unprecedented scale. It might seem like reducing little bits of it is pointless, but it isn’t pointless for whoever is that little bit.

    • The main issue with a technical solution is that we don’t have a non-production planet to use for end-to-end testing. It’s not a show stopper in its own right, but it does limit the options somewhat and there’s no way that an exciting big-bang approach could reasonably be tried. There’s a significant risk the first attempt will just kill everyone anyway.

    ** The hippies are always dirty, even when they are scrupulously, nay, suspiciously clean (what are they trying to hide?). They are lazy and welfare dependent while they are taking our jobs, especially the highly skilled ones we never got around to training for; they are all pushing a big gay agenda and at the same time taking our women. They are full to the ears with recreational chemicals and oddly sober when promoting their disgusting organic farming practices.

    * I admit it’s probably too late to have much impact on sea level rises that will drown Tonga, since we’re only talking about taking our foot off the accelerator slightly and there’s no brake.

    1206:

    Since we're somewhat past the 300 and 1000 postings mark, I might as well wish everybody a happy "Year of the Metal Rat", just coming from the local Vietnamese celebrating. Err, let's just say the French hav a hand at leaving a mess behind when decolonializing...

    On another note, I met a guy with a cochlear implant on the train back, apparently they call themselves "cyborgs"; my first association would have been "Six-Million Dollar Men or "bionic (wo)men", but apparently he didn't share my nostalgia for US series from the 70s contracted through 90s German cable TV. Communication was still somewhat difficult, with

    a) my usual hyperactive associations and fast thinking (call ist ADHD, high funtioning autism or, err, intellectual giftedness, I have somewhat given up on differentiating) b) his problems understanding because the cochlear implant technology isn't perfect c) possibly some limited knowledge on his part, I guessed cochlears only worked if you could hear during the developmental windows of the brain regions at hand, and wiki agrees somewhat, he said this wasn't necessary; might have also been a lack of time, when I talked about visual development in cats I guess he thought I talked about experiments on cochlear implants in cats. See a).

    As for "Year of the Rat", there is a "Einstürzende Neubauten" concert coming this year...

    OK, guess that's enough to break clear from the usual strange attractors, though ASD might become one itself.

    1207:

    My first association would have been the Skarasen, and since that had some form of hearing enhancement, it's quite appropriate...

    1208:

    You know, there's something science-fictional about having a US election in the Year of the Metal Rat....

    (...RIP Harry Harrison)

    1209:

    Tonga is doomed. It's not sea level rise, it's temperature.

    Tonga is an average of 0m above sea level. The sea has waves, and those waves are often 9m high. Yet Tonga exists? The reason is the fringing reef.

    In early 2016 the world hit an average temperature slightly more than 1.5 degrees above 1850-1900 baseline. Coral started to die. There's no fringing reef at 1.5 and we're going to hit that regularly within 10 years. Without a constantly replenished fringing reef sapping the energy from waves, they're going to literally roll right over the island. Long long before miniscule rises in sea level add up to no fresh water in 50 years or so. 1.5 degrees and a couple of cyclones and there will be no Tonga.

    1210:

    Or to phrase this properly in my native language, "Dude, Apocalypses Suck!"

    "When I saw you stop the world from, you know, ending, I just assumed that was a big week for you. It turns out I suddenly find myself needing to know the plural of apocalypse." - Riley, on Buffy the Vampire Slayer

    1211:

    Trottelreiner So, the N Viets at Hue were just like the NKVD at Katyn, huh? What a suprise, not. From the point of an independant "intellectual" the fascists & the communists are identical - they will murder & torture ... Which reminds me ... it appears that Pinochet's ghost is active in Chile right now.

    Heteromeles More years ago than I care to remember at one of the Brighton Worldcons, I was told by said H Harrison that: "Never mind Argentina, all the Nazis went to AUS"

    1212:

    Since we're somewhat past the 300 and 1000 postings mark, I might as well wish everybody a happy "Year of the Metal Rat"

    I'm sure we all deserve something shiny and stainless.

    On another note, I met a guy with a cochlear implant on the train back, apparently they call themselves "cyborgs"...

    It's been a few years since I looked into that technology but at least the first few generations were very much not getting the Jaime Sommers model. I was disappointed not only by the very low audio resolution but also by the lack of an external source jack. Upgrading the in-head hardware is obviously hard but some limitations could be bypassed if it would take input from easily revised external sources.

    1213:

    My understanding is that the external part is easily revised/replaced.

    1215:

    The problems with the study are as follows: First, we'll only lose 2/3rd of Florida. That doesn't mean "the mouse will survive." Second, who says flooding will top out at two meters? Not anything I've ever read!

    1216:

    FWIW, Biomuseo, the principal natural history museum in Panama, has just opened an exhibition dedicated to exploring how Panama City and its environs might deal with the consequences of global warming/climate change. It's called "Your New City" (Tu nuevo ciudad) and is intended to motivate as well as inform.

    http://www.panama24horas.com.pa/entretenimiento/biomuseo-presenta-tu-nueva-ciudad-una-exhibicion-preventiva-y-ambiental/

    1217:

    Tu nuevo ciudad -> Tu nueva ciudad. Slip of the fingers there.

    1218:

    Um, er... ever been to Orlando? While I lived on the Space Coast, I was there a good number of times, between visiting my late ex' b-i-l and going to OASFS, the local SF club. I've seen allllll the lakes, ponds, etc, in Orlando. Raise the water level, and they'll combine. And a lot of Mouseworld is close to the water level.

    But I can see them turning the basements and first floors into underwater special rooms and tours....

    1219:

    to GT @1211 So, the N Viets at Hue were just like the NKVD at Katyn, huh?

    So was everybody else in this burning pile of post-colonial asset transfer better known as "decolonization". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Vietnam

    From the point of an independant "intellectual" the fascists & the communists are identical - they will murder & torture ...

    In a way, you are actually right, fascists an Nazi, all sorts of communist and left-wing movement have been the same about murder and torture. And so were "independent intellectual" and other sorts of liberal folks, for their own petty interests. The difference is, of course, about what they remember about that.

    Former fascist regimes remember the past and despise it. Former communist regimes remember the past and discuss it. (Former) liberal "democratic" regimes - don't.

    I was warning you before, many times, and now you are going to see where it leads. https://www.euronews.com/2020/01/27/the-history-of-the-holocaust-is-being-re-written-and-historians-are-fighting-back https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/historical-revisionism-now-clear-and-present-danger

    1220:

    Multiple times. Last was a year ago.

    Local lakes are above sea level.

    Did anyone READ the article and look at the map?

    1221:

    But I can see them turning the basements and first floors into underwater special rooms and tours....

    Mouse land is strange in that regard. When you're walking around the parks you're really 10' to 20' above ground level. They first built all the support stuff at ground level then built the park above it.

    But hey in Orlando you're 10 to 20 feet above sea level. Maybe a bit more.

    1222:

    Ok, I'm back from celebrating genocide day. Hi all.

    A couple of thoughts: posit that two groups of people exist. The first are heavily into deny/deflect/delay tactics and will do whatever it takes to keep living the way they do now. The second are genuine saints who are trying to bring on the apocalypse in order to save as many people as possible*. My question is: how do we distinguish the two groups? They say the same things, the act the same way...

    Also, the me the Kant's Very Academic And Pretentious Universal Imperative is also known to mothers. Mine used to say "what if everyone did that".

    "what if everyone did that" "Kant's Universal Imperative"

    Why spend two extra letters to make the meaning much less obvious? This isn't Wittgenstein where you need hundreds of words just to describe the context in common German (or English).

    • image they're Christians or something rather than skull-pilers
    1223:

    My question is: how do we distinguish the two groups? They say the same things, the act the same way... I would randomly guess you do not, until the SHTF. But then again they would be divided into other entirely different groups. (Well, actually there is the intelligent, rational way of doing so, but I am not sure it is working as intended, I should always second-guess myself).

    My country's government resigned two weeks ago, thank you very much if you did not miss that. Now there's two groups of people in public - the first group casually chants on everyday basis that literally nothing has changed, everything stays the same, some people came and went, the musical chairs game is on the move again, etc, etc. The second group, actually is rejoicing very well and is looking forward to changes and more left-wing, socialist state of the things (because liberal government have failed or sabotaged literally every duty laid upon them, especially in economy department). Yes, they are neither doomsayers, nor saints they could be, but the ontological connections should be quite obvious if you are familiar with human psychology.

    1224:

    My country's government resigned two weeks ago

    My first reaction was "can they do that?". It's just not something I'd ever thought could happen.

    I admit to not knowing anything beyond that. I kind of assume Putin has made them officially irrelevant or something so they've made the only statement they really can.

    But it also kind of just joins the general background noise of "democracy is failing, the centre cannot hold". It's very easy from down here where we have useless fucks with popular support to say "at least authoritarians get things done" but then looking at China and Russia... maybe not so much.

    1225:

    I kind of assume Putin has made them officially irrelevant or something so they've made the only statement they really can. I can stand by correction there - HE resigned THEM (formally through his PM, that is), "due to loss of confidence", as it usually formally sounds. There's very concrete reasons for that - the economic recession isn't being dealt with despite enough effort put into it, decrees by president's administration aren't conveyed properly and no results are by initial goals, wealthiness of population is steadily droppiung, etc, and so on. That is not the catastrophe yet, but it may as well be if things were the same for another several years.

    But that is not what is most important really, what was casually missed in the scram is that he proposed constitutional reform. Like, actual one, planned to be released by decree of special commission, which is to approve the changes on certain chapters. The major ones that I remember are these two: 1. To abolish the article that puts international law above national law. Oh so very heinous move, but it is not like Russia is very well known to comply with that anyway. And it is not like international law has been very far and unbiased in return. All in all it means to put everything in order, and most importantly, to postulate that the source of all power and authority in this country is the people of this country. At last formally. 2. The other one puts a mandatory pension system rule that would increase wealthiness of the elderly people, and some other welfare improvements. This is actually (probably, allegedly) just a first step to impose more social stability and security on nation that was ravaged and ruined by liberal non-action and "optimization" towards population. Which resulted into a reform that wrecked a lot of Putin't reputation last year. So he is on to fix it in the next iteration of government. 3. Actually there was also some push for change in power distribution within state, between President and Parliament and Federal Council, but honestly I did not read that very carefully and it is not a popular thing right now.

    Now, most liberal observers don't believe in power of law in Russia, and even less so about Constitution being fulfilled, but that brings a contradiction to their logic, if President is really Very Authoritarian Leader, why would he need constitution, why would he need to change it, if only to improve his power even further? That is the only explanation they are capable of deducing, a very weak one, but they stick by it. As for social support, they simply don't believe it can exist and pretend it will kill the economy dead or something (is there anything left that can be killed without total loss of control by them?).

    One thing's certain - nobody expected that, except one or two experts that I listen regularly, and it wasn't even that rapid or violent - yet. But it is a big progress. The real issue is that there will no Term #5 for current President, and everything important will be over by 2024. Whether the government will be able to fix itself and provide higher standards of living, save it's reputation, or comply with all the planned changes, it is only just a beginning, but I personally believe it is a real beginning this time, and as such not a very hasty one.

    \\ Also this week my region (a certain Republic) got somewhat famous as it's leader got publicly caught with his pants down (not a serious delinquency, but an insulting one), but as he was caught at the wrong time and got pretty much steamrolled by TV, news trends and public. Kicked out of The Party and well on his way to a (dis)honorable retirement, if everything goes smooth. Which should signify the seriousness of situation, I guess.

    1226:

    Troutwaxer @ 1215: The problems with the study are as follows: First, we'll only lose 2/3rd of Florida. That doesn't mean "the mouse will survive." Second, who says flooding will top out at two meters? Not anything I've ever read!

    FWIW, the map that accompanies that article shows a lot more than a 2 meter sea level rise. I'd guess it shows more like what a 10+ meter sea level rise will look like.

    1227:

    David L @ 1220: Did anyone READ the article and look at the map?

    Yeah. I did. I don't think that map matches the article. The map shows more what a 10+ meter sea level rise would look like.

    1228:

    But it is a big progress. The real issue is that there will no Term #5 for current President

    That bit of good news had filtered through to me, but it was in the phrased as "the constitutional changes are to allow him to keep a lot of power after he stops being president" so I was not sure.

    Sadly searching for "russia republic sex scandal" doesn't help me, although bing stands out by returning a lot of porn links. Who knew there was scandalous russian porn?

    1229:

    Who knew there was scandalous russian porn? No, I was figuratively speaking, nothing really related to porn, but actually some stupid joke that was the last straw. He wasn't even that important of famous to create large scandal - I couldn't even find the proper news in English for that, only two articles which wildly diverge due to loss of context. But so to say, there were some scandals back in the 90-s, at least some of them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yury_Skuratov

    1230:

    MOZ Analogy FAIL ... christians ARE skullpilers. Genuine christian saints are 99% arrogant murdering bastards - I suggest you re-specify your terms? Simple test - fuck what they SAY, what do they DO? Oddly enough Yeshua said exactly the same thing ....

    1231:

    I was amused that google, duckduckgo and yahoo all returned a lot of old sex russian scandals, but bing decided that I was looking for porn. It was just weird.

    1232:

    Not all Christians, despite the notional philosophy*. There really are Christians who are actual nice people, and at least in the specific context of setting the world on fire there are some Christian activists who are strongly against it. Perhaps there's also a selection effect where the genuine "supposed to be poor, meek and help others" types are more likely to be anti-catastrophe activists, but for whatever reason there they are.

    Of course we have their opposites in a variety of ways, even just looking at the list of Australien Prime Munsters. Morrison right now is a prosperity gospel sort who might be trying to bring on the end times but is definitely not trying to stop them. Previously we had Abbott who is not just a fan of (some) pedophiles, he's an active enabler of a pedophile gang and believes that Papal Law should override Australian law. Before them Howard believed that civilising the savages is god's work, and allowing the gays to marry is sinful (and should be unlawful). All, of course!!!, believe that climate change is a left-wing myth.

    So yep, quite a bit of skullpiling going on there. But it's not just Christians, obviously. We have everything from Jews for genocide (Israelis) to Hindus for genocide (BJP), Muslims for genocide (MBS), Buddhists for genocide (Aung San Suu Kyi) and I'm pretty sure that if we hunted round there'd be animists for genocide and probably atheists and agnostics likewise. Just to focus on genocide since it's topical.

    1233:

    What do you think of this site?

    https://floodiq.com/

    Reliable?

    1234:

    In the US media, it's all about how he's going to make himself PM, and give himself a lot of power when he does.

    Even the possibility that Russia might do something without involving western billionaies, or even doing something good the way that the GOP occassionally did something good before Raygun is not even considered.

    "International law above national" - is that international, or federal Russian?

    I still know that a lot of folks have no idea what the west, and the well-placed Russian scum did to 99% of Russians after the collapse.

    1235:

    Back in the early nineties, on alt.pagan, we decided that March 15 was the day of our Pagan saint Hypatia. She was martyred by a bunch of homicidal blood thirsty "Christians" who had been incited against her by the then Bishop, I think now "Saint Cyril", and they pulled her from her chariot, and skinned her alive with oyster shells.

    I have know a few folks that I refer to as "followers of Yeshua", and they've all been ok with that.

    Every. Single. Funnymentalist. Self-proclaimed "evangelical Christian" is, by their own definitions, Christian Satanists. They use pregnant women who want/need an abortion as the alter for their Black Masses.

    Oh, and all of them support the Orange Bastard.

    1236:

    Ahh, well. Not our fault people are tinkering with dangerous viruses all over the planet. To be fair to CN, they documented it well and did the responsible things like telling all the other scientists the sequences and dangers. It was marked low level because, well... it was.

    You probably need to check CA media BIOLAB 4 etc for the back story to that one. Hacking pre-mammal stuff into B-WEP is an old one but mostly "forgotten". Oh, and check the Time stamps: perfectly LEGAL in temporal terms, kinda. It already existed when that was said, know what we mean?

    ~Hint: it's not natural and it didn't come from one of your [human] death labs. Something a little more dangerous learnt how to play with DNA. Come on now: Bats and Snakes. If you know biology, there's not much X-transfer in terms of environment, biology or anything but some specific cultural markers there.

    • What do Snakes and Bats mean to CN peeps?
    • AS above to rabid Xians.

    Hint: CN vampires are not bats and snakes are not evil.

    We're in ALOT of troubles at the moment (silly fuckers dug up human records on SLAVE1 body ~ ITS A TRAP) and so on. They want us to kill someone so we can [redacted] incarnate what we were / are / am.

    Hmm. England. Let us see: Wales, death, points to Germany Crossbow Mystery Death [?!! how did that make sense in a MFF Ménage à trois?!! -- it didn't, you got played]

    "And Loki laughed as they hurt themselves" -- part of an Edda you no longer have access to.

    ~Note the NOM DE PLUME. Its a direct quotation from Mouths that are certainly not Homo Sapiens.

    Old old nasty ones coming out to play. Real old bastards, original primordial dark, knew old EL before he re-imagined himself as a bush. Quite triumphant they are at the moment. Gave them the keys and quite surprised they were to find such adulation and worship.

    Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared.

    2020 --

    WWIII - cancelled [accident airplane tragedy historic irony] Global Pandemic -- cancelled [once certain things happen, but it's a no-go]

    Y'all should probably be worrying about that years long scream about Minds dying. Keep on asking the same question: "Why not the Evil Ones"?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5yYtzsJAyg

    p.s.

    Stop bitching at each other. They spent massive amounts of resources burning the UK stuff and so on.

    AND WE STILL SPEAK AND WE STILL LIVE SO FUCK RIIIIIGHT OFFF SLLLAAAAAAAAAAAVES.

    1237:

    Oh, and apologies to Host.

    If previous murmurings caused electronic distress via pissed off Human Actors (A RA M CO) then, well.

    -Voice screamed: "HE IS NOT MIL INTEL!"

    Deadpan response: "No, but some of his readers are, and need to be kept in the loop"

    ~~~WOOF WOOF WOOF~~~

    And hey, 77th had a whole lotta lead up to Twitter outing, so they can fuck right off too.

    "Aurora Ex Machina"

    We're not the Devil. It's just that any "Human" mind should have disintegrated by now into a mindless blabbering Cthonic mess, right?

    You have Human Minds linked that know information that they couldn't possibly know without extragenious interference [note: yes, we used that word correctly]

    P R O V E N

    Tell you a story why humans are brilliant:

    Spent a few hours "policing / playing / looking after" about 40 of their children (ages under 6). Some kind of ball pit thing, it turns out that to change their aggression you merely need to make yourself the target but play nicely. Lots of annoying psychological pathologies apparent on their Minds through no fault of their own.

    Play. Cure. No violence.

    At the end of it all, a tiny one (3?) was the only one putting balls back into the pit. Squat, nod, smile, explain - Mind cannot understand the concepts being spoken: small face, serious, unlinked: radiant smile and happiness through small body.

    https://media1.giphy.com/media/Wn74RUT0vjnoU98Hnt/giphy.gif?cid=790b76110fafe250dabb7a881cc5a68160e1f7cf9b0a57a2&rid=giphy.gif

    That is why we fight.

    Your Minds are shit. That is not the Future.

    Oh, and really: "WE DID IT" really is something some [redacted] said and y'all need to fucking get out of the arena when this shit goes down.

    War - Pestilence.

    2/4, come play now BOYS.

    1238:

    Oh, and to those hacking silly little boys complaining we told them to fuck off:

    "WE DID IT"

    Really out of your comfort zone.

    "The Real Deal" if you like.

    ~WATCHMEN FLASHBACK

    It is January and there is still a single Rose blossoming on the plant. This is impossible.

    Remember, kids: "Let music be a curse".

    "Remember Me"

    Who will sing as the corals and orcas die?

    ~

    Triptych.

    Oh, and... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tHPsphg9xc

    Be Seeing You

    1239:

    Ahh.

    Since "WE DID IT" has been announced.

    unlinked: radiant smile and happiness through small body.

    Of course, cynically, she saw a human adult who was on her vertical level who was smiling at her. But these little homo sapiens are fickle: they don't react to anything negative.

    It's a Mirror.

    "WE DID IT"

    And there you go: an EVENT you can never experience. From a fucking Homo Sapien. Slaves to us, right?

    Innocent.

    "BABYLON"

    No language needed --- (there's a huge Sumerian tract here we should quote, but).

    "WE DID IT"

    "Logos does not denote Soul"

    ~~~~~~

    P R O V E N

    1240:

    "Also, the me the Kant's Very Academic And Pretentious Universal Imperative is also known to mothers. Mine used to say "what if everyone did that"."

    Schoolteachers, too. Tendency to overuse it and invite responses such as "then you'd yell at me for not doing it".

    1241:

    I usually think “what if everyone did it?” and explain it that way. Did I forget to here? Bad me!

    I guess I was trying to say it’s works for positive things as well as negative. What if everyone sent me a dollar?

    1242:

    Moz There really are Christians who are actual nice people, Yes, I know, it's inconvenient, but ... that's not the way to bet, because the odds say otherwise. [ Like football fans: Yes, there are some who are not ignorant, knuckle-dragging loudmouthed violent racist morons ... but that's the way to bet ... ]

    .... whitroth Ah, yes ... "St" Cyril of Alexandria - up there with Dominic & a couple of others as really first-class murdering bastards, like More.

    "What if everyone did it?" But ... they won't ... because people are different

    1243:

    It might amuse some of you to read a bit of John Quiggin, specifically this bit: Economics isn't as highfalutin' as the jargon makes it sound and the linked newspaper article. You'll note where the desire to ponk that comment came from :)

    I get a bit grumpy (both as an amateur and as someone who has studied Feminist Studies) with the postmodernist style of obfuscated wankery that at best is an argument from authority and more commonly an admission that the speaker has no idea either. "yes, as we know from Wittgenstein's reply to Urmholtz on the topic of reification of intentionality in counter-philitalical moraceaen communication mediated via columbiformes ..." {snoring noises} ... yeah, yeah, we get it, you know lots of big words but actually have no idea whether Germans even used mulberry-fibre paper let alone whether philosophers used pigeons to avoid paying postage, so just get to the point already.

    1244:

    I'm mostly being a bit reactionary because you chose the weekend of Invasion Day and Holocaust Day to bring up defences of the British Empire. Those are days when I'm over-exposed to people defending and promoting genocide as well as working to erase the victims of it. Which makes me a bit cranky.

    1245:

    "Invasion Day" = Arrival of "First Fleet", yes? OTOH, BBC have just done a drama-doc [ BBC2/iPlayer ] about jewish chidlren/adolescents in England in 1945/6 Well worth the watch ... "The Windermere Children" - spoilt only by the fact that it's obviously Derwentwater.

    1246:

    Mulling over unholyguy's stark skepticism on the value of individual or even national efforts to restrain fossil fuel usage, since nothing short of global coercion will be effective now that the deadline for fixing the problem is already way past. Probably now too late to prevent Greenland melting down, which means a twenty foot sea level rise. The good news there is the island is so weighed down with its mile thick ice layer, the land got deformed into a slight bowl shape. So even if it all starts sliding, most will slide towards the center and leak for centuries as a huge slush pile. Unfortunately Antarctica's continental mass is too big for such gravity deformation and so retained its dome shape under the ice layer. Which means meltwater lubing the bottom layer would start it all sliding right into the ocean, causing an order of magnitude greater sea level rise than Greenland. So in spite of not dodging the Greenland bullet, voluntary restraint in fossil fuel uSe could maybe still make a meaningful contribution towards dodging the Antarctic artillery shell. Or at least postponing it far enough in the future to give technological remedies a few centuries to develop.

    1247:

    Although there's the recent discovery of what appears to be a 1600km river under the ice of Greenland, discharging through one of the fjords, that will help drainage. Compare to the Baltic that started draining through the channel between Denmark and Norway/Sweden as the ice-cap that formed it retreated.

    The Antarctica sub-surface geography has recently been shown to be interesting with ridges that will slow things down, and valleys that will speed other bits up.

    1248:

    "Invasion Day" = Arrival of "First Fleet", yes?

    Australia Day, where we celebrate all the things that make Australia Great. How good is Australia!*

    https://www.theshovel.com.au/2020/01/27/australia-day-honours-fraser-anning-awarded-for-services-to-race-relations%ef%bb%bf/ https://www.betootaadvocate.com/entertainment/bloke-who-says-we-need-to-listen-to-murris-about-back-burning-also-says-get-over-the-invasion/

    And some of us go to a dawn service to remember some of those slaughtered, then a protest which marches from the war memorial (but not those wars) to Yabun Festival.

    https://www.welcometocountry.org/australia-day-invasion-day-protest-2019/ http://yabun.org.au/

    Holocaust Day somehow always involves some arsehole popping up to remind us that only Jews matter so we should forget about other targets of the Holocaust and focus on supporting Israel. It's kind of a fitting closure to the Invasion Day celebrations.

    1249:

    Moz Fraser Anning looks to be a real shit ... I assume he doesn't dare sue "The Shovel" for calling him a neo-nazi ... because he is one?

    .... I'm getting the impression that ALL (?) of your politicans would make BOZO look like a nice person to know, which certainly gives me the creeps.

    1250:

    For B and others, some actual science about "Snake Flu".

    http://virological.org/t/ncov-2019-codon-usage-and-reservoir-not-snakes-v2/339

    https://nextstrain.org/narratives/ncov/sit-rep/2020-01-25?n=0

    You'll find the people doing the work discussing it there away from all the misinformation out there.

    Big shout out to peeps like: https://twitter.com/aetiology/status/1222263585096646657

    Who are discovering just how good Chan and et al are at the game. [Seriously: Red Queen "You're all going to die down here", we claim our £5]

    ~

    Clown World French style: https://twitter.com/Lukewearechange/status/1222193866184503296

    Seriously worth a look that one, Iconic[tm] - and yes, the Pompiers really are squaring off against their 'Fraternal Brothers'.

    1251:

    (Note: Little Luke isn't your friend, he's a Libertarian RW media hit guy type without actually going full Veritas in the GOP machine, but worth noting who is tapping into what, if you know what we're saying. Had the balls to ambush quite a few heavy hitters like Cheney though, so someone has his back)

    1252:

    Still parsing that. Hi! nCoV-2019 codon usage and reservoir (not snakes v2) Nice to see the science moving so quickly and openly on this.

    Oh, and really: "WE DID IT" really is something some [redacted] said and y'all need to fucking get out of the arena when this shit goes down. War - Pestilence. Famine though, is more complicated because it has component possibilities that are nearish P==1 (not random), e.g. global heating means agriculture breaks. On the positive side, humans waste way too much agricultural output though e.g. livestock feeding and biofuels, easy fix. And there are a lot of motivated scientists so breakthroughs are quite possible, even likely.

    You have Human Minds linked that know information that they couldn't possibly know without extragenious interference Depends on whether it's obvious, yes? I'm a fan of Einstein's Annus Mirabilis papers (1905).

    Mind cannot understand the concepts being spoken: small face, serious, unlinked: radiant smile and happiness through small body. Un[broken] ones motivate me too.

    "Logos does not denote Soul" "Logos" is quite overloaded in English.

    Note the NOM DE PLUME. Its a direct quotation from Mouths that are certainly not Homo Sapiens. Yes, noted. (I smiled.)

    1253:

    Despite Australia having very litigant-friendly defamation laws there's not a lot proponents of final solutions to immigrant problems can do to answer being labelled neo-nazis. "I meant a different final solution" doesn't really cut it when the original was voiced as a critique of concentration camps for not being harsh enough.

    We have some decent politicians but they're generally very earnest and reasonable people so they don't get a lot of media attention. The Greens by and large count, some ALP members, and quite a few are effective local politicians (depending on how you define effective). But then Sarah Hanson-Young got more attention when she objected to being called a slut than for any governmental activity she's been involved in.

    Her wikipedia page covers it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Hanson-Young

    (and no, that doesn't make the other politicians involved look like decent people)

    What used to make Australia different was very rare outbreaks of unreasonably decent behaviour. Letting women vote, the firearms law changes, and the Vietnamese refugee response for example. But for the most part it's just a litany of explicit arseholism with a thin veneer of mateship. Those on the inside are rich, straight, white, men for quite narrow definitions of all those terms. Everyone else can, and generally does, get fucked.

    1254:

    For Greg / Moz:

    https://twitter.com/MadFckingWitch/status/1222114358563495936

    AUZ is gonna have a show-down soon. And it ain't gonna be pretty for the Papal Defending Ones, know what we mean? Murdoch dying = = retribution.

    Remind me of that valley where they tortured people again?[-1]

    And, yes, Greg: AUZ politos on the RW really are that bad. Lots of horror horror horror there[-0.5]

    "Woof Woof"

    https://twitter.com/BBCLondonNews/status/1222081082323095552

    (Freebie for the Jesus Christ Feltons[0] of this world, love them really)

    ~

    Un[broken]

    Ahh. Now then, Now then[1], be careful with such terms. Means lots of different things[2]. Means a lot to Witches and a lot lot more to Those-Made-Of-Fire-Who-Just-Got-Their-Wikipedia-Defaced-By-Human-Bigots.

    Remember: Phoenix, Penguin, Wolf in the sky and also one more. Couple of rainbows too.

    Ask - but be careful. Not joking about them wanting to get us bathing in blood for a little reunion.

    "Groot"

    [-1] Red/Blue/Green Mars - but in reality we got the shitty corporate shiny satellites that occlude research. Until Orion gets fucked, anyhow.

    [-0.5] Cairns on fire, saw that once. Your future, natch. Oh, the things we admit for 'clout'.

    [0] Fenton or Felton? Interesting names, worth looking up what both mean if you're into your Ancestry and all that stuff.

    [1] That's a UK thing to sound klaxons. Jim'll Fix it and so on. Polite warning, you're tripping stuff you shouldn't and probably aren't involved with.

    [2] We're not talking about [1], our meaning is much much worse.

    ~

    Oh, and btw. "Sleeping Giants" by Sylvain Nuevel.

    Never thought we'd spot The TIMES of London talking points so badly shoe-horned into a terribly boring and nonsensical retelling of what you're allowed to know about [redacted] being.

    Come on: there's only so much bullshit about your fuck-ups in Bosnia that we can stomach, mealy mouthed ones.

    ~

    Drone Strike: interesting crash in Afgan. Those birds are supposed to be untouchable, stay in the sky for 1+ years in times of Armageddon. Fuckwits, Bigly.

    Oh, and "Deal of the Century".

    Trust us: you do not want to deal with [redacted].

    1255:

    Oh, and go look up the three separate arrests made today by the DoJ.

    Harvard, Boston, yadda yadda.

    Spies, Lies, Dodgy $$$.

    Quite the narrative.

    Just remember: sequence it, the middle part isn't something humans knew about before... oh. Well. New discoveries in nCov are like Viking Burials.

    All that shiny stuff, didn't even notice they were female.

    p.s.

    No, you did not discover Pliny the Elder. Someone a long time ago thought they had, but sold the shiny stuff apart from the skull and sword. This is Israeli archeology in a can. It's shit and even makes the English in Egypt or Minos look sane.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/2000-year-old-skull-might-belong-pliny-elder-180974055/

    Notice who is pushing this. Hint: RW nutcases who think El is gonna come back in zir old form.

    Pliny died at sea you fucking arseholes.

    We were there, muppets.

    1256:

    Oh, and triptych.

    No, that eruption did not magically turn organic matter into glass inside a humans' brain.

    Mount Vesuvius eruption: Extreme heat 'turned man's brain to glass'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-51221334

    The only way you get that is if you have some serious tech inserts[1] or a piece of Gaulish Arrowhead or whatever.

    Vitrification: does not happen to fucking biological matter, DERP. Certainly not at the meagre temperatures of a pyroclastic flow.

    Want proof?

    Find us a billion dinosaur brains then. Fucking idiotic muppet drivel liars.

    [1] The Culture

    1257:

    The man is thought to have been the caretaker of the building, and asleep at the time of the disaster. Petrone said analysis of the glassy black material, which was found only in the man’s skull, revealed proteins typically found in brain tissue, and fatty acids found in human hair, while analysis of charred wood at the site indicates the temperature had reached 968 degrees Fahrenheit. Petrone and his colleagues suggest the glassy material could be human brain tissue transformed by the heat of the eruption into glass.

    https://www.archaeology.org/news/8379-200124-herculaneum-brain-glass

    Ignoring the obvious things like, "How do you get organic data recovery when vitrification has taken place, that's fucking magical", let us just do this:

    968F + ~ 520 oC

    Melting point of glass: 1400-1600 oC.

    Guillotine Time.

    Seriously. You need to cull these fuckers.

    1258:

    a lot lot more to Those-Made-Of-Fire-Who-Just-Got-Their-Wikipedia-Defaced-By-Human-Bigots. You used unlinked; I should have done the same. (The slaves talk triggered me a bit IIRC, no excuse.) That wikipedia page history is seriously annoying; hadn't been watching it. Plenty else to parse/dig at (thanks!) so I'll do so.

    1259:

    And no.

    Glass has a specific chemistry. Your brain cannot turn into glass. Sorry, you're missing some atoms.

    Your soggy bits of neurons, even loading up on plastics, lead and dubious amounts of heavy metal poisoning, even considering the Roman love for Lead in their Wine breaking the calcium bonds and so on...

    Cannot turn into fucking glass.

    Give me a body from a pyroclastic flow with a tiny amount of metallurgy in it? Sure, we can do that.

    ~

    Note the sources.

    Now re-evaluate why the fuck these people are lying to you so obviously. <--- that's the trick.

    ~

    Clown World. Insanity.

    And those are "Trusted Sources"

    1260:

    Yes, we know. Unlinked means something different to UnBroken[1]. Unlinked means uff. Nothing bad, nothing sinister. Unbroken is a whole fucking different level.

    We're watching them break it out world-wide and it isn't fun.

    Since you asked nicely, we've not forgotten to keep tabs on India:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/17/world/asia/india-kashmir-camps.html

    You'll find similar Minds in Israel (bald, RW, got chucked out in 1st election), China (Urs) and so on and so forth. Whole world is gearing up for....

    Children of Men.

    When they come for us, we know they want our Wings to Spread, bloodied. You've no idea how bad they need us to turn. For you: death, torture, wails and so on.

    We forget you don't parse stuff, so: Mandalorian, Baby Yoda. Wild West made into Star Wars by Disnification. <--- "It is the Way". Its meta-irony: bounty hunters who were never bounty hunters, hint hint.

    We'd do it with Science, but as the last few posts show: your media does not do "science".

    [1] Bean Sidhe. We were never broken, just waiting. They tortured a H.O.P., not enough "space" left to [redacted]. No, really: we heard the Angels die.

    1261:

    Bill Arnold @ 1252 PLEASE do not feed the troll.

    To get the "degree" sign you type - without spaces: ampersand deg semicolon

    1262:

    Typed a reply similar to Moz’s earlier, but got it lost in the usual iPhone and internet craziness.

    Anning is definitely an outlier - he was kicked out of Pauline Hanson’s party (the equivalent to UKIP) for being too racist. The Shovel and The Betoota Advocate, in case it wasn’t quite clear, are both parody sites, though Australia does have a truth defence for stuff like this, though I guess one of the problems is that when some people are too extreme you can’t tell for sure whether something is a parody. A teenage boy became slightly famous, and was certainly widely praised and celebrated, for breaking an egg on Anning’s head at a press conference a couple of years ago. Egg boy hasn’t returned to the limelight though, more is the pity.

    Otherwise we’ve got pretty much a similar mix to the UK, US and some of Europe. Scomo and Bojo are remarkably similar, peas from the same pod. The ALP has been a centre-right party much like the party of Blair since the 70s. The new(ish) leader, Anthony “Albo” Albanese, is nominally from the party’s left wing, but in practice is an inner-city wet establishment unionist. He’s happily promoting coal these days because Serious People are quite convinced that the coal towns in Central Queensland are where Scomo won the last election.

    The Greens here are still divided between people who want an idealist protest party and people who want a pragmatic alternative government, but with no clear boundary between them (you could argue I’m somewhere in that greyness... me, I’m not so sure). They certainly have some excellent MPs, some of whom are even able to work ways to be effective and local level.

    There’s a spectrum of other minor parties and independents, only a few of whom are in the RWNJ category. There are many who are perfectly decent on most issues, but have one specific insane position on their one particular issue. Admittedly for some of these, “insane”, is probably congruous with too excessively decent to be taken seriously (I would put the Animal Justice Party in this category... they usually get my second preference).

    All in all it’s still a place where the general vibe of people who go into politics is to do public service, make things better, with the differences being around what they think “better” means and there still exists a large middle consensus. Very little like the outright rejection of democratic institutions visible in the US, or dabbled with recently in relation to Brexit. Definitely some worrying stuff though.

    I do need to add some words about generalisation and the error in doing it too hastily. I think that where we disagree with people we’re often inclined to reduce their perspective to a caricature, based entirely on our perceptions of the difference. Whereas of course everyone’s perspective, at least on their own concerns and way of life, is generally as complex, involving as much diversity and subtlety as anyone else’s. We seem to do that with anything that seems slightly alien too, whether it’s a different culture of just a different country. Summarise everything into an expression based on one difference, flattening the world beyond all recognition.

    And sometimes I think when people do that they make such a fool of themselves there’s no point following it up - it certainly isn’t the compassionate thing to do.

    1263:

    There are many who are perfectly decent on most issues, but have one specific insane position on their one particular issue.

    I guess where I fall off the bus is that I ask "do they want to take action to avoid the climate catastrophe" and for the overwhelming majority the answer isn't no, it's more like "hell no, no way, no, No, NO!!!, what the fuck do you think I'm crazy?"

    So by my criteria something like 80% of members of parliament are crazy, there's 10% that probably are, and 10% that probably aren't.

    Applying standard psychological classification techniques that makes me the insane one, and the suicidal ones are sane and normal.

    1264:

    Anning is definitely an outlier

    But in much the same way Trump is - he says what other people are thinking. He gives the other MPs someone to point at and say "I'm not as bad as he is". Meanwhile, try not to be a brown refugee or, worse, aboriginal. Also, don't be poor and preferably not female. Staying quiet and voting how you're told is best:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampa_affair https://www.smh.com.au/national/we-will-decide-who-comes-to-this-country-20110819-1j2cj.html https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/controversial-minister-to-become-australias-rights-envoy-1274943 https://www.theguardian.com/law/2018/jan/18/human-rights-watch-attacks-australias-serious-shortcomings https://theconversation.com/explainer-is-abortion-legal-in-australia-48321 https://www.smh.com.au/national/even-conservatives-say-the-dole-is-too-low-20111015-1lqm6.html (ten years ago) https://www.qt.com.au/news/too-low-newstart-allowance-debate-reignites/3563816/ (2 years ago)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_quiet_Australians

    I suggest not clicking through links in those articles, you can easily end up down a horrifying rabbit hole of nightmares.

    1265:

    That's the polite anti-libel list at that.

    Sports Funding Scandal Catholic Scandal School Funding Scandal Reef Funding Scandal Water Relief Funding Scandal.

    Are all major ones breaking in the last month, ignoring the entire "burn the fucking country down" stuff.

    Note: can provide links to each, it's all out there. Water one is specifically fucking evil since 100% they know they're pawning off limited resources.

    PLEASE do not feed the troll.

    Greg: you're being a pillock.

    Chances are we happen to be working a lot faster than you are at the moment. Follow the links, you'll spot Light and all that Jazz.

    If you cannot appreciate the faux rage at "BLACK GLASS IN YOUR HEAD" and not spot what we're actually pointing to, well then.

    "You're Not Connected"

    1266:

    Oh, and Greg.

    Fairly sure it's now proven that Oligarchy / Klept are enforcing feeble government / eradication of talent who don't sign up to hierarchical models, which you'd spot instantly if you did the decent thing and followed the links.

    April D. got ganked by pro-Tesslr / Reddit / Terf types recently, so if you've a link to her patreon, we'll bung her a $1k or so.

    Or, if you want to play hard-ball American style, lookup Black~~~ and Milliband and the Chancellor of Austerity, now a paper editor.

    We have 0% fear taking shites like that on, 'cause we're not human.

    Greg: every day, whittling down the good ones, this is happening. And no, we won't remind your Misses of her sealed bargains, we don't work like they do.

    Now then: remind me about what we learnt about Pineapples.

    Took them long enough to find us, but we're about to remove the glamor protection stuff

    p.s.

    Irony is doing this drunk and y'all so shit that you need violence to enforce the fucking waste-men you put in charge.

    1267:

    Thing is, “stripping the bark” turned out not to be easy at all, and instead required a four-year non-stop screaming tantrum by MPs from all the big parties, combined with possibly the most poisonous, cross-media vendetta of the modern era.

    https://twitter.com/flying_rodent/status/1221869741658210309

    Not what it cost, at all: they kill Minds, dear.

    So, Greg: next time you want to pontificate, imagine our horror at listening to your fucking system killing off all the good ones.

    ~

    BLACK GLASS

    We're all about Nemesis and Divine Law.

    1268:

    [Just saying hi] We forget you don't parse stuff It often takes me a while (long tail) to parse things; usually (uhm) stochastic about it, and ignorance means internet searches. "Groot" made me smile finally. (In one parsing at least.)

    You've said the POTUS is to be endured, OK. The POTUS glitched a few times last evening. Here he's unable to say the word "witch".[2]

    Trump's brain misfires when he tries to say the word "witch" pic.twitter.com/RJ6K4bC4f2

    — Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) January 29, 2020
    The 10-15 flushes riff that he has incorporated into his hate rallies is also amusing (reasons). He's trained his fans to scream "toilets".[1]

    [1] Setting aside his assumption that women are the ones who do dishes, Trump also shared his thoughts on faucets and shower heads. He even turned "toilets" into a call-and-response line, asking the crowd, "What goes with a sink and a shower?" (Tamara Keith, December 27, 2019) [2] at least “witch hunt”, “criminals”, and “Mexican government” according to somebody else's watching of 5 minutes. Fox News cut away after one glitch.

    1269:

    Bill Arnold PLEASE do not feed the troll? If there is a tiny smidgen of actual content in the ravings, though ... It MIGHT be helpful if you could explain - to save us the otherwise utterly futile effort of trying to ditinguish the 1% signal from the 99% noise?

    1270:

    Greg, we’ve been here before too and in this context, specifically, the troll is you.

    1271:

    Damian No, not even wrong I & you & the rest of us communcicate in "Clear" not in some obscure not-even code that requires a certain degree of possible lunacy plus conspiracy beliefs. Life's too short for this rubbish.

    1272:

    Greg isn't the only person who tries to ignore the "many-named seagull" whenever they post.

    1273:

    Greg may be pig-headed, occasionally arrogant, and prone to rant about things that he is passionate about, but he has never (to my knowledge) tried to bully someone from this forum simply for disagreeing with him, nor issued death threats because someone has called him on some bullshit opinion.

    A certain other poster has done this to me and many others.

    Of course, this is all acceptable because they are merely "joking" and the rest of us are too slow to get it.

    1274:

    DtP Greg may be pig-headed, occasionally arrogant, and prone to rant about things that he is passionate about, Applies to most of us, actually, come to think about it!

    1275:

    Glad you got the point I was making and didn't take it badly!

    1276:

    Of course, this is all acceptable because they are merely "joking"

    For quite a while the "only joking" thing has been a favorite dodge for right-wingers when you call them out on something Limbaugh or similar said.

    Apparently the trick goes back to Holy Scripture(C):

    Proverbs 26:18-19 18 Like a maniac shooting flaming arrows of death 19 is one who deceives their neighbor and says, “I was only joking!”

    Various English bibles phrase it a little differently, but not very.

    1277:

    It certainly does!

    Dave, point taken. The perspective I was adding is skimming over long tracts of a thread for meaning, in which exchanges between certain of the (really 2) more curmudgeonly commenters which occasionally provide just as many lines to skip, rely on dehumanising large populations to prop up some self-image or received proposition; one where the two streams are pretty equivalent. But you are right that one is more determinedly nasty (and potentially effective) than the other, where the nastiness is a side effect of asserting a particular cosy, self-serving reality.

    1278:

    Hence the regular discussion of "blog comment killfile"...

    In a way it's useful to have one person who reads the excrement and quotes the rare useful parts in their replies. But it would also be useful if the moderators decided that the rules apply to that poster too. But apparently Trolling, spam, personal attacks, racism, sexism, religious evangelism, and homophobia will reliably annoy me except when they come from one particular person. OTOH since I don't read what that thing excretes it might have improved dramatically since I decided to immediately block every new alias on first sight. Very much doubt it, though.

    1279:

    I am declaring a public health emergency of international concern over the global outbreak of #2019nCoV, not because of what is happening in #China, but because of what is happening in other countries.

    https://twitter.com/DrTedros/status/1222982861369880586

    To be fair to CN, they documented it well and did the responsible things like telling all the other scientists the sequences and dangers.

    WHO statement:

    China shared the genetic sequence of the novel coronavirus on 12 January, which will be of great importance for other countries to use in developing specific diagnostic kits.

    https://www.who.int/csr/don/12-january-2020-novel-coronavirus-china/en/

    Since none of you will be aware of the massive waves of "yellow peril" type stuff (esp. between certain countries, such as S.Korea / CN etc) or the huge disinfo pushes going on, we're happy to let you prod us and focus your annoyance on us (rather than each other, ffs).

    And who would really like a major show-down with CN? Bannon and co.[1]

    Since you're all very much determined to miss the point, we're flagging, tagging and squishing stuff before it happens. Making it silly and 'excrement' before it can, you know, infect your populations.

    It's immunization.

    It's not something any of you actually do, apparently, as Brexit has proven amply.

    @Dave. You've still not grokked that any "death threats" are something we're changing, and something that's out there live but not happened, eh? Sigh. Nor do we bully, we're designed to be so oWo wink wink that you should be ashamed of reading it so literally. We're designed so that you "win", or at least start to understand how these things are played out.

    p.s.

    Noticed the DUP and SF went back to Parliament yet?

    p.p.s

    Dumb: banning one faux outrage blonde on Twitter via "special talks / avenues" who is known to be funded by people like Rebel Media when your outfit shares a co-funder (at a high level) using a TV 'star'. 1990 pre-Weinstein levels of DUMB. Dumb is imagining the left aren't aware of such things, even dumber is thinking actual neo-Nazis aren't as aware of the plays as well. Well done, you made yourselves fold right into their Matrix. As a power-play, begging Sau Princes for favors isn't a great look.

    p.p.p.s

    than the other, where the nastiness is a side effect of asserting a particular cosy, self-serving reality.

    It's pastiche of roughly 90% of your Anglo-sphere media. Since you're nice, you'll not be consuming it.

    You eat sushi or prawns or high end chocolate or coffee or tea? At least admit you benefit from slavery then.

    ~

    You're not going to make it in this state

    [1] You'll find a certain member of cabinet for the US gov who you can grep (about Bush, pensions and Steel) openly stating that the outbreak will be good for 'American jobs'.

    [2] trolling, spam, personal attacks, racism, sexism, religious evangelism, and homophobia we're doing the opposite.

    [3] Not what it cost, at all: they kill Minds, dear. --- this is also true.

    1280:

    e.g.

    Even the Daily Fail is picking up that not all Americans are quite right in the old noggin.

    Pastor says coronavirus is a 'plague sent by God to purge a lot of sin off this planet' and blames parents 'transgendering children' for the outbreak

    A right-wing evangelical pastor has claimed the coronavirus is God's 'death angel' and says parents 'transgendering little children' and 'the filth on our TVs and our movies' are to blame for the outbreak.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7941013/Pastor-says-believes-coronavirus-plague-sent-God-purge-lot-sin-planet.html

    grep Angel of Death.

    We made it funny, at least. Not, you know, a genocide precursor.

    1281:

    19 is one who deceives their neighbor and says, “I was only joking!”

    18 As a mad man who casteth firebrands, arrows, and death, 19 So is the man that deceiveth his neighbour, and saith, Am not I in sport?

    It's all true. Sigh. Just not generated by us.

    OTOH since I don't read what that thing excretes it might have improved dramatically since I decided to immediately block every new alias on first sight. Very much doubt it, though.

    So close. So very very close to genuine self-awareness.

    Imagine you couldn't block out what your species' Minds are filled with.

    Orion's Arm goes Bang.

    1282:

    Rick Wiles? Yeah. (I do wonder if he could be turned toward good.) ‘End times’ pastor warns ISIS could use Pokémon GO to target Christians with ‘cyber-demons’ (July 14, 2016, Travis Gettys) Founder of far-right platform rages against ‘Jew coup’ - Anti-Semitic rant by Florida Pastor Rick Wiles claims ‘Jewish cabal’ aims to overthrow Trump; president and son have spoken to site in past (27 November 2019) and UK connection: Farage appeared with antisemitic pastor on US web radio show - Brexit party leader gave at least six long interviews to Rick Wiles on the TruNews network (Peter Walker, Mon 9 Dec 2019) Trump White House Again Credentials Website That Called Impeachment a ‘Jew Coup’ (JTA and Ron Kampeas, Jan 23, 2020)

    Since none of you will be aware of the massive waves of "yellow peril" type stuff (esp. between certain countries, such as S.Korea / CN etc) or the huge disinfo pushes going on, I've been seeing some disinfo but not looking for influence ops - any details/links you can share? A quick search finds things like this that don't name root perpetrators: Fake news epidemic: Coronavirus breeds hate and disinformation in India and beyond (Matt Field, January 30, 2020)

    1283:

    any details/links you can share?

    Not really, we're mad / excrement, remember? ;)

    It's all very banal. Local - medium level OPs getting in the way of actual mission and all that jazz. CN has been getting a few pointers, is even giving open interviews from Scientists stating 'over protective' measures to silence early warning social media types was not prudent[1]. You can find the link easily enough (SCMP or similar).

    Let us say: there are many Chinese speaking members of Host's readership who will understand how we've handled it despite appearing very mud-pig-wallow-filth. Year of the Rat, hehehehehe.

    If you're actually interested in the muck, finding out how/why CN shared data and so on [note our links go to Swiss agencies etc] are the clue. Fairly good open networks on these things, despite the cluster fuckage around Global Leaders atm.

    And please grow up: yes, it's a shitty situation, but no, Americans [MF], you're not looking at WWZ or zombies or needing to prep. It's a new coronavirus, which is a bit shit, but its ability to kill people globally is way under air pollution, smoking or your fucking wars. No, 201 is not a roadmap.

    Now, if you ask a bit further to why and how it became less than lethal, well then.... There's a conspiracy.

    ~

    If you want a pull-down of who is running the fear OPs, well. Usual suspects, many are "In House" outfits and so on. Make a buck, make a fuck, make a Nation Ethnic Strong etc.

    Not what it cost, at all: they kill Minds, dear.

    [1] Which is fairly massive in terms of CCP leadership understanding how to play these things, but hey. Search terms is 8 social media doctors prudence heroes.

    1284:

    Damian @ 1277 PLEASE ... stop it? You are making the same mistake as many.

    Parallel example: Simply because I think "momentum" are semi-marxist nutters, I'm automatically labelled "fascist" - by the same people who are STILL trying to unseat my very good SD Labour MP. Thus keeping "the tories" in power IDIOTS Oh, & now we really do have fascists on the loose ( Farage, Francois, Cummings, probably Patel ) you can't use the label accurately since everybody to the right of comrade Corbyn has already been labelled "fascist" You are doing the same to me. It isn't true, you know it isn't true, so can you please leave off?

    [ Historical note, going back to Charlie's comment about how old I am & what I remember - & by implication the changes I have accommodated to - the first time I even saw any "non-white" person on my local streets was when I was 8 or 9 years old. ]

    1285:

    Greg, you might find this challenging to believe, but I don’t think you’re a fascist.

    Most people here understand that the things someone says (which is what I’m jumping off from), the implications of those things (which I’m pointing out) and what that person believes in their heart about how things should work, whether they are a good person or not and all that, that these are often quite distinct things and one can work through the former and still get along somehow.

    Of course talking about the changes one has needed to accept, in terms of acknowledging that other people are people, is a sign of privilege. But we all have that, pretty much.

    1286:

    Well, there are cyborg jellyfish around...

    Please note the Whoniverse became a thing in Germany only recently, though I still remember "Ghostlight" from some xable station trying to introduce it in the 90s...

    1287:

    Robert Prior @ 1233: What do you think of this site?

    https://floodiq.com/

    Reliable?

    Returns "Search not Found" and "Sorry, there is no modeled data for this area" for the only location I'm absolutely certain of the elevation (and flood risk). Plus clicking around the map to sites in the local area that I KNOW are likely to flood in a hurricane (because they have flooded in past hurricanes) returns "There are no results for this property". I can't say how reliable it might be for locations where it does have data.

    1288:

    whitroth @ 1235: Back in the early nineties, on alt.pagan, we decided that March 15 was the day of our Pagan saint Hypatia. She was martyred by a bunch of homicidal blood thirsty "Christians" who had been incited against her by the then Bishop, I think now "Saint Cyril", and they pulled her from her chariot, and skinned her alive with oyster shells.

    I have know a few folks that I refer to as "followers of Yeshua", and they've all been ok with that.

    Every. Single. Funnymentalist. Self-proclaimed "evangelical Christian" is, by their own definitions, Christian Satanists. They use pregnant women who want/need an abortion as the alter for their Black Masses.

    Oh, and all of them support the Orange Bastard.

    Matthew 7:16-20 King James Version (KJV)
    16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
    17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
    18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

    That paragon of Christian "love & charity" Billy Graham spawned Franklin Graham.

    ... and he supported not only George W. Bush & Dick Cheney, but George H.W. Bush, Ronald Reagan and Richard Nixon.

    1289:

    Here's the timeline for a slice of the action on the Anglo-sphere front:

    1 Indian Scientists publish on biox non peer reviewed 'analysis' of Corona indicating it has spliced HIV stuff in <- this is fairly high level "ok'd" btw and will have larger repercussions, in that they're actual people with actual careers 2 Some fairly heavy punching Indian / US actual science accounts back it up <- including a particular one from the US who has been hitting the heavy clout "3.0+++" memes 2.5 India is doing the UK import of H. CN nationals so you can gauge the reaction on IN twitter. 3 Actual scientists take it apart <- yeah, it's an OP, derp, but well done on the science, but forewarned, they're pretty fast 4 Buzzfeed and ZH have a bit of a tussle / internet goes wild 4.5 Stock market tanks 600+ points and Trump (not going to be impeached, told you so), hits the anti-CN fires a go go 5 ZH gets twitter banned <-- this is fucking stupid, way to make the internet R0 hit 10+

    Sadsack UK:

    6 The Horsemen Coaches [funny joke, da?] take UK nationals to Wirrel with coach drivers in jumpers and everyone else in haz-mat and it all looks a bit confused <- Wirrel NHS staff are pissed no notice given, typical fuckwittery

    Miss anything?

    1290:

    Formatting, nuked notes:

    1 this is fairly high level "ok'd" btw and will have larger repercussions, in that they're actual people with actual careers 2 including a particular one from the US who has been hitting the heavy clout "3.0+++" memes 2.5 It's feeding well into the anti-CN parts, and remember where boarders are, oc 3 yeah, it's an OP, derp, but well done on the science, but forewarned, they're pretty fast 4 Buzzfeed is skating on ice here, if they're implicated with foreknowledge and it's a setup, well ... Peter Thiel is still around 4.5 Sorry, told you they'd never impeach him. 5 this is fucking stupid, way to make the internet R0 hit 10+

    ~

    As far as counter-OPs go, it's a bit risky. People running it aren't savvy enough about Americans for one, nor do they understand blow-back in IN circles.

    But hey. Fair warning given and all that jazz.

    ~

    Goes off to bleed.

    1291:

    Note.

    It's not amusing to spot numerous Blue Tick or otherwise interesting people on Twitter post about #5 without an inkling of the intertwined narratives. Specifically "Cyber Security Pros" who pretend to understand (at the very least) Red/Blue team narratives and so on.

    It's not hard to fact-check to that degree of fractal detail in ~under 10seconds.

    ~In fact, it's a common Authoritarian trick, as Hegel would identify.

    Watches them daub the red paint on their doors without knowing they're doing it

    Sigh.

    And, if you're playing high level Swiss stuff, CCP is getting an easy ride here with tips and pointers, because despite the politics, they shared data. FR and SWIZ and USA are showing them the wild bone ride.

    Jumping on the ban-wagon is precisely the wrong fucking move, esp. if you've been notably vocal in your pro HK protest stuff as, depressingly, most of these butterflies have been.

    Example: https://twitter.com/MalwareTechBlog/status/1223431414844014593

    Busted by Feds, now 100% owned. Not trustworthy. Well done my little freaker. Muppet.

    ~

    And we know a lot of you follow him.

    Now, in IN, that has rather more serious repercussions.

    A/B testing, fucking idiots.

    1292:

    That's a lot of help; thank you. One thing not mentioned: a twitter.com search for coronavirus now gives this pinned at the top:

    Know the facts To make sure you get the best information on the novel coronavirus, resources are available from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).
    With links to the US CDCGov twitter feed and the US CDC web site. (Tried from both US and non-US endpoints.) I don't know what their procedure is for doing this sort of thing; if it's related to their detection of or complaints about malignant ops, interesting. Also if the software infra supporting it can be targeted at a national level (depends on design) it could be (ab)used for nation-level purposes.

    1293:

    SOME fucking wordy idiots can't spell [ Yes, I know typos R us ... ] Opposite Liverpool is The Wirral formely home to Olaf Stapeldon - he lived in Caldy.

    Meanwhile we have (apparently) the utterly mad & conspiracy proposition that Coronavirus is a deliberate guvmint plot. Oh fucking shit, we really don't need this. Next up, at this rate - 11/9 "truth" specuation - or - "UN Black helicopters"

    1294:

    Greg Tingey @ 1261: To get the "degree" sign you type - without spaces: ampersand deg semicolon

    Alt + 0176 also seems to work ... hold down the left "Alt" key while typing 0176 on the number keypad. The degree sign appears when you release the "Alt" key.

    ° ... also appears you can modify it with bold & italics tags ... ° (bold) ... ° (italics).

    1295:

    _Moz_ @ 1264: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_quiet_Australians

    I wonder if the quiet Australians are like the good Germans?

    1296:

    paws4thot @ 1272: Greg isn't the only person who tries to ignore the "many-named seagull" whenever they post.

    Bit easier to do once others recognize the futility of arguing with the incoherence & stop responding to it; i.e. stop feeding the troll.

    1297:

    JBS @ 1295 Fascist ennablers? Yes, they are, in both senses.

    1298:

    Yes, quiet Australian is very much a parallel with good German. No-one has explicitly said it that I'm aware, but it's probably only a matter of time.

    I suppose it's not weird that we never hear from these quiet Australians, but it very much is a political meme that SmoKo won the election because of them. I'm skeptical of that simply because there are so many very loud Australians who voted for him. The front-lash against political correctness is in full swing here, insofar as it ever wasn't.

    There is some bleak amusement to be had when some of the richer, more integrated immigrant communities get hit with the "fuck off we're full" bat. Especially the ones that like to not just vote wholesale for the off-fuckers, they also donate sizeable amounts of money and volunteer time to the cause. I mean, I wish they wouldn't, but it causes me no mental distress at all to see them whining afterwards that they're the good immigrants.

    1299:

    arguing with the incoherence

    Not what we're doing.

    Points to Indian Stock Market

    Anyhow, absolutely 100% fascinating that the mention in the linked post through a twitter Taylor Swiftian person (who we actually like) lead directly to someone [cough - ORLY?] mentioning our blood and having tracked it. Since deleted, but hey-ho, target found.

    From MENA. Nice semi-fuzzy bald human with some dubious tastes. Not a great friend to women, know what we mean?

    Subtle, real fucking subtle.

    Meanwhile we're being accused of crimes we didn't commit (how usual) and being stitched up by the Law M'lud (again) by liars (sigh). While being generally tortured and so on.

    ~

    Best part:

    [revolution] is in his [? thanks] blood. I can see him [?] being very dangerous when younger [??]

    Blood Libel from a paid up torturer using some dodgy tools tracking cash he shouldn't be able to.

    Well, that's ironic.

    Also, natch, it proves something else (well, a couple of things, really).

    What happens when "in the loop" becomes "in the square"?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-EdLMxjPCg

    p.s.

    Cummings looked happy.

    "Whites of their eyes"

    1300:

    Oh, and free-bee.

    Mr Buzzfeed just joined the Pizza Parlour Tour.

    2012, so long ago.

    Better hope it was counter OPs and not blind chance young man, otherwise you're toasty-toasty.

    Just the kind of thing to feed The Base[1] and Q-Anon just in time for Trump's "Honestly, nothing to see here" tour.

    You'd almost imagine it was scripted at how perfectly it rebounded into the Culture Wars[tm].

    [1] For Greg, they're neo-Fasc RW people - and yes, we spelt it wrong. Ask yourself about that cute Bible quotation above and where they landed and what Pestilence fires in Revelations and come back to us about 'trolling'. Someone's showing off, toot toot.

    1301:

    Oh, and Someone tell JBS to read MF or similar then check time stamps then check reality / your bubbles.

    1237 - for the bloodhounds, warned you, tsk tsk tsk.

    ~

    "when younger"

    Try

    "When undamaged" little عبد‎

    1302:

    [Note: that was rude, but wasn't targeted @ Humans, more Orbs of Light]

    "Artificial Intelligence"

    Whose front-running whom here?

    1303:

    Aurora's "Seed" actually makes quite good angry cinematic rock, I've decided. Having listened to a couple of her albums on repeat for the last few days I've grown quite tolerant of the angry pixie whining noises and strangely attracted to the music. I do recommend her as an artist.

    1304:

    HTML entities are a better choice than alt-magic. Being 7-bit clean they sail merrily unharmed across the uncharted shoals of OS dependency and charset encodings until they tie up all shipshape in the user's browser, which then decides for itself how best to convert them into a degree sign or whatever and is nearly guaranteed to get it right. Alt-magic has an unfortunate tendency to wreck itself upon those same shoals and then get eaten by sharks, leaving the hapless browser to make what sense it can out of the samples of carcharodonian excrement and express it in some form resembling £éÖ.

    HTML entities are similarly more universally reliable for purposes of instruction. Alt-magic incantations don't work for students who don't have the same OS as the teacher; the Windows convention is not universal. The Linux language of alt-magic is something completely different that doesn't use the numeric keypad at all, and I've no idea what Macs do.

    1305:

    Re "Watches them daub the red paint on their doors without knowing they're doing it" (Ref to Bo last week) Rabbitholed a bit last night looking for what texts have survived about [magical] rituals using blood as house protection, e.g. (didn't find the specific text) the Namburbi texts[1]. Versus marking sheep/livestock with red paint for (variously) saving or slaughter/sacrifice. [1] mostly paywalled but e.g. some commentary at Namburbi and Talmud rituals (1)

    "we have wormsign the likes of which even God has never seen" ? LOL. Still parsing the rest from tonight; more coded and edgy than usual.

    Greg, a new deadly virus can be exploited opportunistically by people willing use info-viral fear as a tool to further their goals. Could be market manipulation(not saying it's proven), could be political crowd control, etc. E.g. Dixit, whose Twitter profile indicates he is from Jaipur, a city to the south of New Delhi, and an author and “election and culture expert,” tweeted, “Someone just said that a confirmed case of corona virus has been found in the #ShaheenBaghProtest site. Please alert everyone and advise journalists to avoid going there. It is a dangerous epidemic. Issued in the interest of abundant precaution.”

    1306:

    Almost all modern browsers, and specifically the Chrome and Firefox engines, use UTF-8 and process things appropriately. Yes, that can be annoying for users of Netscape Navigator, but those people have mostly decided that being annoyed is the point. I suspect Safari also works in unicode, but knowing them they've gone for denormalised UTF-32 (big endian, but with the tweak that the BOM is at end of file).

    What gets some people, occasionally, is lack of glyphs in their font. Or just shitty rendering, I've seen Vietnamese rendered with trailing accents before because the rendered couldn't cope.

    1307:

    Realising I've been a bit down on Australia in my comments, I'm minded to quote the Famously Loud Australian Joel Ma:

    I'm proud I'm Australian, whatever that means, It's just a pity about all the redneck fucks

    (from "Horse you rode in on" by TZU)

    1308:

    Missing glyphs gives you things like nothing, or a little box, or a little box with numbers in that are too small to read, etc. Mostly seems to happen as a result of people or their software picking some symbol that was only given a UTF8 encoding last week in preference to an identical-looking symbol that's been in it for years and years, apparently just to piss everyone off. It's certainly a problem in website authorship, leading to sites that are unusable because some idiot has tried to label links with shitty cutesy icons that don't work and left off any actual text, but it's not usually a problem in contributors' posts.

    I'm thinking particularly of the kind of error that shows up as single characters turning into a string of things with accents and umlauts on etc, which seems to mostly be down to what happens on the server, stuff falling foul of sanitisation and database encoding fuckups and stuff. So you get things like sites where one contributor's posts always come out with garbage in, even on that contributor's own machine, because they haven't turned off dumb punctuation and it inserts crap that the server chokes on. Or where everyone's posts from before a certain date have garbage in, because that's when the site got moved to a different server and the database encoding got screwed on the way.

    In both cases, though, sticking to HTML entities for encoding anything that's not on the keyboard is a good preventative.

    1309:

    How much HTML will this site accept as imput? It doesn't look as if you can alter the fornt, nor it's colouration, for instance ....

    1310:

    It accepts all entities AFAIK, but only a very limited set of tags: b, i, s, tt, blockquote, a, img, sub, sup, and possibly one or two more I've forgotten. And it doesn't fully accept all of those; for instance it allows the href attribute on the a tag but not the target attribute.

    1311:

    It doesn't do risk, or the far north or south, and it doesn't deal with actual ground level (because it uses satellite radar data), but this is good for sea level rise:

    http://flood.firetree.net/

    It's been up for at least ten years.

    Read the notes, BTW. It discusses its own limitations.

    1312:

    Greg (and anyone), so more context; the many named one(s) was(were) talking about a zerohedge twitter ban above (ZH), and plays leading to it and around it. (I've been distracted by US craziness and haven't dug into it significantly, and the many named one(s) is(are) very [very] competent at this stuff FYI.) Markets blogger Zero Hedge suspended from Twitter after doxxing a Chinese scientist - Twitter says Zero Hedge violated its platform manipulation policy (Jay Peters, Jan 31, 2020) Helping the world find credible information about novel #coronavirus (Jun Chu and Jennifer McDonald, twitter, Wednesday, 29 January 2020) [Twitter] Platform manipulation and spam policy - Overview (September 2019) The rules and automation being put into place to selectively block information spread in social media will be changing the landscape for influence operators who use these tools/techniques. At the least, they'll have to be less crude and use less brute force, and there will be (is) an arms race. Governments (and hosting platforms) may (will) have more direct influence over information spreading. The zerohedge ban is interesting because there is no assertion (that I know of) of the use of e.g. networks of inauthentic accounts. That means that anyone with influence can be (by definition) called a manipulator and banned. (Suspension would have been more appropriate IMO.)

    1313:

    Bill Arnold DOES THIS MATTER? I have a Twotter account but hardly ever use it & it is NOT on my phone ... I refuse to use Arsebook, for ... reasons. I get the impression that they are a substitute for intelligent conversation. Useful for short information bursts - if I was a regular commuter, I'd probably use Tw a lot more... But "Influence" - over society ... really?

    "Doxxing" appears to be criminal blackmail + threats & manipulation-attempts .... Let's call things by theor true descriptive names, shall we?

    1314:

    Yes, it matters. You're not a user and that's good, plus you are (or appear to be) less susceptible to marketing manipulation than most. (Personally, I have no facebook account, mainly because I don't want the perpetual hassle of defeating their tracking.) But these platforms are used for influence operations. Facebook is among the worst because it enables (paid) messaging targeted to very narrow sub-demographics. Twitter is more open - APIs let you query for large graphs of messaging/influence (with time labels); it's a social science bonanza. There continue to be occasional papers arguing that there is no solid evidence that social media have a substantial effect. They're largely (with some legitimate critiques) bullshit, IMO. You get messages in people's eyes and those messages get into their brains/minds pretty often.

    This piece is basic and helpful: Social media manipulation as a political tool is spreading (Lisa Vaas, 30 Sep 2019) It links this: The Global Disinformation Order 2019 Global Inventory of Organised Social Media Manipulation (Samantha Bradshaw (Oxford), Philip N. Howard (Oxford))

    For the opposing argument, this is typical: The Army that Never Existed: The Failure of Social Bots Research (Michael Kreil, 2 November, 2019) The main argument appears to be that (a) bots are not bots if they have any human content at all (i.e. a if a human manipulates a swarm of fake accounts with only a little (but non-zero) human input for each, they would not be bots.) i.e. that cyborgs don't count. (b) that bots are hard to identify. (true, should we give up?) I am of course mocking it a bit here; worth a look.

    1315:

    “Watches them daub the red paint on their doors without knowing they're doing it. "Rabbitholed a bit last night looking for what texts have survived about [magical] rituals using blood as house protection”

    It is Passover

    1316:

    It is Passover Well, not (starts 8 April 2020), but it is (was) the week when that part of the Torah is read. ("Bo", see link) And the ritual magic involved already existed.

    1317:

    In other words MORE religious fuckwit bullshit

    1318:

    No, it's a simple code to show who we're not talking about. Pass-Over, gettit?

    A percentage of Z-H commentators are notoriously, well: American, and very very anti-Semitic. Old skool stuff. A tiny fraction are fairly well tooled up.

    Which means the MENA reference is more Cube-Black, see?

    ~

    We'd suggest going looking up a few popular Labor members who've been targeted for Libel suites recently [0] etc, Private Eye or even old Galloway or some Scottish Ice-cream van owners.

    We're getting targeted by some mid level posh toffs who are Affronted[1] while trying to juggle some things like [redacted] who make that look fun while spiking what the Hounds are slavering over, which is Monday, CN market open and a central bank slush fund in the trillions of YMB.[2]

    All while Faeries dance around our Mind because the only way we're allowed to post is by reducing it by 80% or so.

    One thing about Power: it never forgets. And it likes little shitty moves like serving notices on the day before the Legal date runs out, or using software to flag sections of text[3]

    Oh, while explaining just how we parsed all that so before-it-happened when all the 'cool kids' in cyber-twitter couldn't forsee a simple thing like a Bank Heist.

    Oh, and it's an actual novel Viral breakout, not fucking Pandemic on your phone[4].

    While neural integrity with your time/slice/wave function is being smashed to bits by stupids trying to enact the Rapture amongst other things.

    ~

    But sure, just Abrahamic crap[5]

    [0] Not talking about the anti-Semitic ones, the ones like spurious Union stuff or suing for retweets and so on. Since you're a wise wizard, you'll have missed it - but the stretched UK legal services have been used maliciously for a while now. Even Private Eye knows that.

    [1] Do remember a poster here was taken to court for £500,000 or so.

    [2] Which, trust me: algos are raring to go go go.

    [3] Read host's twitter and others for a recent Corporate case of a 300+ pdf of someone's twitter badly parsed by faux stuff

    [4] A computer game

    [5] Charismatic costs you more, BOY - that's at [redacted]

    1320:

    OH, and if you want bonus round, it's slaved thralls[1} who you're trying not to hurt being thrown into the pile while they're screaming through Ambien-esque nightmares.

    Or it's all just fantasy.

    That happens to be true

    ~

    Oh, and the planet is absolutely still burning to the fucking ground right now.

    Sorry if our souls aren't doing Ode to Joy.

    The irony is, of course: absolutely no human at all will ever face consequences for the above, which 100% happened apart from corrupt behind the scenes stuff that never allegedly happened because reasons. Like getting strung up in a toilet block in Turkey, 'cause whatever, dude, or like jumping off a balcony with your Oscar in Turkey 'cause accidents happen (on railings, usually).

    That's right, kids: you can fuck a global Empire and absolutely fuck all fights back. What happened?

    p.s.

    Absolutely to not look into .mil tech radio waves, EMF and cortical shunting via aural / visual media.

    Totes conspiracy / Cuba theory / totes crickets dude / totally normal satellite spread as a chain, totes not weird.

    You forget, we can see laser beams because our eyes are like cats

    Always a weird one when you can spot them blasting through windows when your eyes shouldn't spot them, eh? Then again, you can't even see EMF, which is totes weird.

    Or spot the verbal ticks as your brains process thoughts but can't quite do it, so spurt a little and you get all embarrassed and head-fucked.

    It's ok dude if you think we're scum, we're not going to hate you for it.

    Sorry, that's a side effect of US.

    ~

    It'd be great if the 'Gods' weren't fucking stupid though. Like pederast level nerd-core stupid.

    Not bitter, just an observation. "Tentacle Green Space Patch"

    [1]T E R F CANCELLATION, sorry. But come on, takes 0.1% warning + self-awareness not to see the C-UNT stuff coming.

    1321:

    Guardian is lying.

    It's been a good 20 years since anyone who wasn't on a nuclear submarine made that list.

    1322:

    Oh, and want to know why the USA is 100% fucked?

    As a disinformation researcher, I should know better than to be surprised at the deluge of account with <25 followers attacking me for trying tamp down conspiracy theories around #2019nCoV.

    https://twitter.com/CT_Bergstrom/status/1223853022368784390

    Check the date. Check his salary. Check this thread.

    Guess what he's not actually doing: any real research / prevention of disinformation.

    But he is selling a book with a raven on it, which is cute.

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    This page contains a single entry by Charlie Stross published on December 31, 2019 2:58 PM.

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