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Towards a taxonomy of cliches in Space Opera

So I'm chewing over the idea of eventually returning to writing far future SF-in-spaaaace, because that's what my editors tell me is hot right now (subtext: "Charlie, won't you write us a space opera?"). A secondary requirement is that it has to be all new—no sequels to earlier work need apply. But I have a headache, because the new space opera turns 30 this year, with the anniversary of the publication of "Consider Phlebas" (or maybe "Schismatrix")—or even 40 (with the anniversary of the original "Star Wars"). There's a lot of prior art, much of it not very good, and the field has accumulated a huge and hoary body of cliches.

Some of you might remember the Evil Overlord's List, a list of all the generic cliche mistakes that Evil Overlords tend to make in fiction (16: I will never utter the sentence "But before I kill you, there's just one thing I want to know."). I think that it might be a good idea to begin bolting together a similar list of the cliches to which Space Opera is prone, purely as an exercise in making sure that once I get under way I only make new and original mistakes, rather than recycling the same-old same-old.

This is not an exhaustive list—it's merely a start, the tip of a very large iceberg glimpsed on the horizon. And note that I'm specifically excluding the big media franchise products—Star Wars, Star Trek, Firefly, and similar—from consideration: any one of them could provide a huge cliche list in its own right, but I'm interested in the substance of the literary genre rather than in what TV and film have built using the borrowed furniture of the field.

List follows, below the cut.

  1. Planetary civilizations

    This subheading covers common cliches/mistakes made in discussing inhabited (Earthlike) planets and the people who live on them.

    • Planets are small and easily explored
    • All the land masses on a planet are easily accessible
    • You can fly anywhere on a planet in a short time without leaving the atmosphere
    • You can fly anywhere at Mach 2.2+ without experiencing hull heating due to atmospheric friction
    • You can fly anywhere at Mach 2.2+ without worrying about Air Traffic Control and NOTAMs
    • Everywhere on a planet shares a common climate and the same weather patterns
    • The same plants and animals can be found everywhere on a given planet
    • Coriolis force, trade winds, cyclones, what are those?
    • Oceans are small, land-locked, and mainly useful for fishing
    • Plate tectonics is easily ignored, unless the plot requires a Volcano/Earthquake
    • Deep carbon cycle, subduction, ionosphere UV splitting of water, long-term terraforming stability: why worry about little things like that?
    • Ice ages are inevitably global
    • Some planets have a breathable atmosphere but no water
  2. Space and cosmology

    Common blunders in cosmology, planetography, orbital mechanics, and related.

    • Moons are good, the more the better!
    • Suns are good, too, the more the better!
    • ... Especially if one of them is a giant. (Those never explode or flare messily.)
    • Planetary ring systems are picturesque, not dangerous
    • Planets have a diurnal period precisely 86,400 Earth seconds long
    • Planets rotate east-to-west
    • Planets have magnetic poles that approximate their rotational axis
    • Planetary gravity can be approximated to a point source for purposes of calculating orbital dynamics
    • All satellites orbit the equator
    • You can change orbital inclination easily
    • Stuff in orbit doesn't change orbital inclination spontaneously
    • Geosynchronous orbit is easy to get to
    • If you are in geosynchronous orbit away from the equator you still hover over the same spot on the planetary surface all the time
    • Planets are close together
    • Concentric planets orbit the same distance apart
    • The flight time between planets in an inner star system is the same as between planets in the outer system
    • Asteroids are so close together that you can hide between them
    • ... but they never clump into planets
    • Asteroidal dust makes an irritating ping as it bounces off a ship's hull
    • ... for some reason you never run into it at multiple km/sec
    • Actually, hitting a space rock or other spaceship is no big deal, a bit like being in a minor car accident
    • ... Even though the kinetic energy released by an impact increases with the square of the velocity, and you're travelling hundreds to millions of time faster
    • Gas giants are good for mining volatiles
    • ... Because dealing with Mach 6 wind shear, 10,000 Bar pressure, and a lethally deep gravity well is trivial
    • ... Because we need volatiles such as 3He, to fuel our aneutronic fusion reactors (hint: Boron is cheaper and much less scarce)
    • All comets have tails
    • ... they're sort of hairless and scaly, like a [sarcasm limit exceeded - Ed.]
    • Rocky planets are either airless or shirt-sleeves worlds with breathable air
    • Pay no attention to Venus, runaway greenhouse worlds are imaginary
    • Big stars are as long-lived and likely to have planets as dwarf stars
    • Supernovae happen routinely and are no big deal
    • Interstellar space is totally empty
    • ... You can fly as fast as you like without worrying about dust particles
    • You don't have to worry about interstellar gas, either
    • ... Except when there's not enough of it to keep your ramscoop accelerating
    • Incidentally? Ramscoops totally work! (Larry Niven said so in 1968.)
    • You can go fast enough to experience relativistic time dilation without worrying about the pesky cosmic background radiation blue-shifting into hard X-rays and frying you
    • You can forget all about hitting the occasional interstellar 4He nucleus with some multiple of the energy of an alpha particle, several million times a second
    • ... Don't worry about hitting the electrons bound to the neutral hydrogen either, gamma photons totally aren't a thing
    • You can use handy black holes and neutron stars to make handbrake turns in space
    • You an also use gas giants to make handbrake turns, at high relativistic speeds
    • Don't let the fact the space is full of exciting high energy physics put you off going there, squishy meatsack-persons!
  3. Biology

    Biology is complicated—so much so that many SF authors suffer from Dunning-Kruger syndrome in approaching the design of life-supporting planets.

    • All planets harbour a single apex predator that eats people
    • All planets harbour is a single venomous insect/reptile analog that poisons people
    • The native flora and fauna use a biochemistry that we can derive sustenance from
    • ... This includes weird-ass micronutrients
    • Pay no attention to the native microbiota, they're harmless
    • ... You won't even suffer from hay fever! Much less systemic anaphylaxis.
    • Ecosystems are robust; why not let your ship's cat stretch her legs whenever you land?
    • ... This goes for your ship's rats, too
    • Planets only have one class of plant-analog and one class of animal-analog
    • ... Only Earth has reptiles, amphibia, fish, birds, insects, mammals, fungi, etc.
    • Terraforming is really simple; you can do it with algae capsules delivered from orbit
    • There are no native parasites that might eat Maize, so we can turn the entire largest continent into a robot-run plantation
    • ... Soil exhaustion isn't a thing
    • ... Terrestrial constraints on agriculture don't apply on other planets
    • You can keep a starship crew healthy and sane indefinitely using a life support system running on blue-green algae, tilapia, and maybe the odd soy bean plant
    • Life support systems are simple, stable, and self-managing
    • It is safe to put bleach down the toilet on a starship; your algae/tilapia/soy will totally deal with it it when it comes out of the recycler
    • Vitamins? Naah, we'll just genetically modify the crew to make their own
    • If you implant humans with the gene for chlorophyl they can magically become photosynthetic
    • ... Okay, if you add the genes for RuBiSCO and the C3 pathway they can magically become photosynthetic
    • ... Because of course two square meters of skin is enough surface area to photosynthetically capture enough energy for a high-metabolic-rate mammal to live off
    • Humans can too hibernate/deep sleep between star systems! All you need is a cold enough chest freezer
    • ... Just as long as their intestinal flora go into cold sleep at the same time
    • ... and so do the low metabolic rate arctic pseudofungi spores they picked up at the last planetary stop
  4. Economics

    *Fingernails-on-blackboard time for me. (See also: Neptune's Brood)*

    • New Colonies may be either agricultural or mining colonies; rarely, resort colonies
    • Everyone uses Money to mediate exchanges of value
    • Money is always denominated in uniform ratios divisible by 10
    • Money is made out of shiny bits of metal, OR pieces of green paper, OR credit stored in a computer network
    • There is only one kind of Money on any given planet, or one credit network
    • The same kind of Money is accepted everywhere as payment for all debts
    • Visitors are always equipped to interface with the planet-wide credit network
    • Planetary credit networks are incredibly secure except when the visitor needs to hack into someone else's bank account
    • Barter is a sign of primitive people who haven't invented money
    • People who rely on Barter are simple, trusting folks (and a bit stupid on the side)
    • Inflation? What is this, I don't even ...
    • Deflation? What will they think of next?
    • Sales tax? What's that?
    • Income tax? What's that?
    • Import duty? What's ... (rinse, spin, repeat)
    • You can get a loan from your friendly bank manager whenever you need one
    • Bank loans accrue interest
    • If you fail to replay a bank loan you may be arrested and held in debtor's prison
    • ... Or sold into slavery
    • ... Or your organs can be seized
    • ... Because your body is just one of your fungible assets, right?
    • ... And harvesting organs for transplant surgery is a universal practice
    • People on planets have not heard of Ponzi Schemes
    • People on planets have not heard of Credit Default Swaps or the Black-Scholes equation
    • If money is made of shiny bits of metal or green paper, banks have vaults where they store lots of money
    • Money sitting in a bank vault is worth something
    • Visitors to a Colony can print fake currency without fear of consequences
    • Visitors to a Colony can leave their money with a bank between infrequent visits without fear of consequences
    • Banks are stable, because ...
    • ... The planetary government will never let a bank go bust, because ...
    • ... The galactic emperor will never let a planetary government go bust, because ...
    • Traders on starships land on planets to load and unload cargo
    • ... Or they carry their own orbit-to-surface shuttle
    • ... Which is as easy and safe to operate as a fork-lift truck
    • Cargo is bought and sold in starports
    • It is profitable to ship crude break-bulk cargo like timber or foodstuffs between star systems because starships are cheap and easy to repair and operate
    • Break-bulk shipping in open cargo holds has never been improved upon
    • Multimodal freight containers, EDI/EDIFACT standards for commerce, bar codes, bourses, and RFID technologies are just inferior and unnecessarily complicated alternatives to a bazaar or indoor market
    • Insurance underwriting? Arbitrage? What's that? (rinse, spin, repeat)
    • All cargo starships need plenty of unskilled deck hands to help load and unload cargo
    • All cargo starships need gun turrets to fight off swarms of space pirates
    • ... Cargo starships with guns can fight off space pirates
    • Cargo starship crews can fix battle damage
    • ... All it takes is enough duct tape and determination
    • ... Because space pirate weapons are as deadly as shotguns, not H-bombs
    • ... And starships cost no more to build and operate than a 1920s tramp steamer
    • Space pirates will happily open fire on a cargo ship to damage it before boarding
    • Space pirates need to board cargo ships in order to steal their cargo
    • ... And impress/conscript/enslave their crew
    • Piracy is a huge problem for space traders
    • You can tell the difference between a pirate and a space trader with a glance
    • A cargo captain in a hole might easily turn to smuggling to improve their bottom line
    • Navies are a lesser threat to smugglers than random encounters with pirates
    • Nobody has ever heard of end-user certificates or bonded cargo
    • Nobody ever thinks to ship their high-tax cargo via a free port or use complex financial arrangements to avoid customs duty without having to hire a dodgy armed ship with a poor credit rating
  5. Politics

    • Planets have a single unitary government (or none at all)
    • Planetary governance is no more complex than running a village or small township
    • ... This is because the planetary capital is a village or small township, not, say, Beijing or Mexico City
    • If there are two or more ethnicities represented on a planet their collective politics are simple and easily understood by analogy to 20th century US race relations
    • All planetary natives everywhere speak Galactic Standard English, or Trade Pidgin
    • New Colonies can't afford police, detectives, customs inspectors, or the FBI
    • New Colonies don't require visting spacers to conform to local dress codes or laws
    • New Colonies don't have gun control laws
    • New Colonies don't have laws, or if they do they were written by a mad libertarian
    • Despite the lack of laws, nobody underage drinks in the saloon
    • ... Nobody underage works in the saloon rooms you rent by the hour, either
    • ... Nor is there an extensive school truancy problem or much illiteracy
    • On reaching pensionable age, all colonists are forced to retire and deported to the Planet of the Pensioners
    • There is no unemployment because happy smiley frontier needs cowboys or something
    • If the planetary government is a democracy, the new Mayor will be elected by a town meeting
    • If the planetary government is an oligarchy, the new Patrician will be elected by a town meeting (of oligarchs, in the back room of the saloon)
    • If the planetary government is a theocracy, there will be only one sect of the planetary religion and no awkward long-standing heresies that are too strong/embedded to suppress
    • ... And there will be direct rule by Clergy, along the lines of an oligarchy: no Committees of Guardians of the Faith, no separation of executive and legislature, none of the complexity and internal rivalries of Terrestrial theocracies (e.g. Iran, Saudi Arabia)
    • If the planet is a colony of the Galactic Empire, the new Planetary Governor will be appointed by the local Sector Governor
    • ... It's Governors all the way up (until you hit the Emperor)
    • Monarchy is the natural and perfectly ideal form of government
    • Only an Imperial Monarchy can ensure the good local governance of a myriad of inhabited planets scattered across the vast reaches of deep space
    • Monarchies are never a Single Point Of [Galactic] Failure
    • Monarchs are never stupid, mad, ill, or distracted by a secret ambition to be a house painter instead
    • Viziers are Always (a) Grand and (b) Evil. (At this point, let's just #include the regular Evil Overlord list, m'kay?)
    • Democracies are always corrupt
    • You can always bribe your way out of sticky situation if you're from off-world
    • All planetary legal systems work the same way (some remix of Common Law, constitutional governance, and trial by jury).
    • The standard punishments for a crime range from a small fine, to slavery in the uranium mines for life (about 18 months), to an excruciating death
    • Trials are swift and punishments are simple and easy to understand
    • Justice is always punitive/retributive/exemplary, never compensatory/preventative/rehabilitative, much less poetic/cryptic/incomprehensible
    • ... If the Author disapproves of the death penalty, substitute mind-wipe for the death penalty (like, there's a difference?)
  6. Culture

    • There is usually only one culture per planet
    • ... Sometimes there are two, to provide for an oppositional plot dynamic
    • ... Pay no attention to the blank spots on the map
    • ... And especially don't go looking for the unmarked mass graves
    • Planetary natives are either Colonists or Indigenous
    • Indigenous peoples are either Primitive or Advanced (and Decadent)
    • Advanced Indigines either don't have space travel or gave it up (see: Decadent)
    • Primitive Indigines are either Tribal or Mediaeval
    • Mediaeval Indigines invariably recapitulate the politics of the Hundred Years War
    • Visits to Mediaeval Indigenous Colonies can be approximated to a side-quest into Fantasyland
    • If the planet is a Colony it is either a Lost Colony or a New Colony
    • Lost Colonies may resemble Primitive Indigines but never Advanced
    • New Colonies resemble Tombstone, AZ, circa 1880
    • New Colonists live in log cabins, ride mules/horses and carry ~six-guns~ blasters
    • ... You can find logs (cabins, for the construction of) everywhere on planets
    • ... They're like abandoned crates in first-person shooters
    • Psychologically speaking, everybody is either WEIRD or Primitive
    • Primitive (non-WEIRD) people are stupid and unimaginative
    • WEIRD people accept and embrace change and innovation; non-WEIRD people reject both
    • Colonies are usually modelled on WEIRD 1950s cultural norms
    • Colony People come in two genders
    • The Women on New Colonies are either:
    • ... Barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen (because colonies need babies)
    • ... Dungaree-wearing two-fisted starship-engineering-obsessed lesbians desperate to get off-world
    • The Men on New Colonies are either:
    • ... Manly plaid-shirt-wearing heterosexual farmers breaking sod in the ~west~ new world
    • ... Dastardly drunken muggers waiting behind the spaceport saloon for an unwary spacer
    • QUILTBAG: huh? Who are those people and why doesn't somebody cure them?
    • ... (Alternatively: everybody is QUILTBAG, pale patriarchal heterosexual penis people are extinct)
    • Clothing invariably obeys some regional dress code that has been observed on Earth in the past thousand years; in extreme cases 1950s business attire will serve to avoid attracting undue attention
    • You can recognize someone's gender on any planet because:
    • ... Women wear dresses or skirts with make-up and long hair
    • ... Men wear pants (or occasionally suits of armour)
    • ... Hijra? Hermaphrodites? Transgender? Asexual? What are those?
    • On some planets people go naked, except for body paint
    • ... This causes no problems, whether social or practical
    • Colony Planets are invariably a Crapsack World that people are desperate to escape from, unless they're the planetary governor or some species of NPC
    • The only place worse than a Colony World is Old Earth
    • Old Earth is
    • ... An over-crowded overpopulated hell-hole
    • ... An over-regulated bureaucratic hell-hole
    • ... A poverty-stricken backwater and hell-hole
    • ... Destroyed
    • ... Lost (because everyone in the galaxy somehow forgot the way home)
    • ... Mythical (and many people think it never existed)
    • ... Somewhere to run away from
    • ... (Rarely) Somewhere to run to
    • Slavery is
    • ... Ubiquitous
    • ... No big deal
    • ... Illegal but all the bad guys do it
    • "the best thing we ever did for them; they're much happier now"
    • Humans are free; aliens are slaves
    • Humans are slaves; aliens are free
  7. Technology - space travel

    • Running a nuclear power plant is kid's business; even a drunken college drop-out can be a ship's engineer
    • Rocket motors are simple to maintain and operate, too—they never break
    • Reaction mass is incredibly dense, cheap, and easy to stash away in a spare corner
    • ... It never runs out
    • ... It doesn't require special handling procedures
    • ... It's never toxic, cryogenic, teratogenic, radioactive, or corrosive
    • Oxygen is freely available in space
    • You can go as fast as you like if you just accelerate in a straight line
    • Spaceships accelerate at right angles to the direction the occupants experience gravity in
    • Spaceships are:
    • ... bilaterally symmetrical
    • ... rugged and able to survive impacts with other objects
    • ... easily maintained by semi-skilled labour/shade tree mechanics
    • ... about as complex as a 1920s tramp steamer, or maybe a deep-sea fishing trawler
    • ... easily piloted
    • ... can stop on a dime
    • ... available second-hand in good working order from scrapyards
    • ... have wings and an undercarriage, like a biplane
    • ... You can hear them coming a parsec away
    • Generating electricity aboard a spaceship without solar panels is easy
    • ... So is getting rid of waste heat
    • ... The bigger the spaceship, the easier it gets (because the square-cube law doesn't exist)
    • ... The Death Star would totally not melt itself with its waste heat whenever it fired its planet-zapper!
    • Faster than light travel is easy
    • ... But the jump drive is fuelled by unobtanium
    • Causality violation: what's that?
    • There are no regulatory frameworks or licensing regimes for starships
    • Nobody would ever think to run a starship up to 50% of light-speed and ram a planet
    • ... Even if they did that, the effect wouldn't be significantly worse than a 1940s atom bomb
    • There's no regulatory framework for shuttlecraft, either
    • ... Because nobody has heard of Kessler syndrome
    • ... Also, a space shuttle in-falling from low earth orbit totally doesn't arrive at ground level with kinetic energy equal to about ten times it's own mass in TNT, because if it did it would be a field-expedient weapon of mass destruction
    • Flying a spaceship is not only easy, it's easier than flying a Cessna
    • Spaceship life support systems are simple to maintain and repair and very forgiving
    • Spaceships communicate across interplanetary or interstellar distances by radio
    • ... Interplanetary radio works instantaneously
    • ... Interplanetary radio communications are as easy to operate as tuning your car stereo to a new AM channel
    • GPS works in space beyond low earth orbit: who needs navigation skills these days?
  8. Technology - Pew! Pew! Pew!

    • Radar gives us an instantaneously updated map of everything in a star system
    • ... But stealth technology is totally a thing!
    • We can't detect spaceships by looking for their infrared emissions against the 2.7 kelvin cosmic background temperature
    • Also, spaceships can hide behind planets or asteroids indefinitely without using their engines or knowing the bearing of the enemy they're hiding from
    • Laser beams are instantaneous, don't spread or disperse, and can melt anything
    • ... Except a force field that somehow refracts/bends/absorbs the confused photons
    • Missiles, with a constrained (small) propulsion system, can overhaul a much bigger/less constrained spaceship at great range
    • Strategic Arms Limitation Treaties don't bother to count Free Trader Beowulf's point-defense nuclear missile battery for treaty purposes—only naval nukes count
    • Gun turrets have to have a glassed-in canopy and a gunner inside or they won't work
    • Also, human gunners can totally draw a bead on a hostile pirate ship maneuvering a few light seconds away. Fire control computers, not so much
    • Boarding actions have mysteriously made a come-back from the 1850s.
    • Guns are still bang-sticks that require a human to point them at a target
    • Stun-guns have no unpleasant after-effects
    • Bullets are brainless
    • You can dodge laser beams
    • Fisticuffs are universally considered to be the optimal way to resolve a sincere difference of opinion over complex commercial interactions
    • All starships need to carry armed guards, or at least a gun locker full of blasters for the crew when they're visiting a Colony planet
    • Knife missiles—who ordered that?
  9. Aliens

    • Aliens are multicellular organisms with nervous systems and musculoskeletal systems
    • Aliens communicate in language
    • ... Using noises
    • ... Emitted by their mouths
    • ... At frequency ranges we can perceive
    • Aliens are individuals
    • Aliens are eusocial hive organisms
    • Spacefaring aliens are conscious
    • Aliens are WEIRD people with latex face paint or funny haircuts
    • ... Because primates are a universal deterministic outcome of evolution on all worlds
    • Wittgenstein was wrong about talking lions. (If they could speak we'd find what they can say fascinating—mostly because we'd be waiting for them to mutter, "I wonder what those bipeds taste like?")
    • Aliens build starships sort-of like humans, but with wonky furniture
    • Aliens are interested in us (see Wittgenstein above)
    • Aliens want to trade with us
    • Aliens want to exchange bodily fluids with us (ewww ...)
    • Aliens want to induct us into their civilizational-level fraternity/sorority and make contact in order to teach us the house rules
    • Alien species only have one dominant culture
    • Alien species are noteworthy for their universally applicable stereotypy, utterly unlike us complicated and divergent human beings
    • Aliens have a much longer history of spaceflight than humans, but unaccountably failed to stumble upon and domesticate us during the 11th century
    • Aliens have religious beliefs because they have the same theory of mind as human beings and attribute intentionality to natural phenomena (see also: Daniel Dennett)
    • Alien religion resembles those of a human culture that thrived prior to 1000 CE and is now considered quaintly obsolescent by most humans
    • Aliens can't control themselves
    • Aliens are unconditionally hostile
    • Aliens are robots
    • ... Robot-aliens are just like alien-aliens, only more alien, because robots
    • Aliens are incomprehensible
    • Aliens have no sense of humor
    • Aliens have a human sense of humor
    • Aliens have been extinct for millions of years, but:
    • ... have left treasures behind in their death-trap-riddled tombs
    • ... their ephemeral technologies still work flawlessly
    • ... If humans trip the burglar alarm, they're coming back—and they'll be mad
    • ... they're extinct because they Sublimed
    • ... they're extinct because they became Decadent
    • ... they're extinct because they suicided
    • ... (robot-alien remix): they're extinct because they tripped over the Halting Problem
    • ... they're extinct because (insert dodgy social darwinist argument here)

What do you think I'm missing from the list?

1083 Comments

1:

Aliens went extinct millions of years ago and... ...we're able to figure out why ...there's any trace of their civilisation left after weather erosion and plate tectonics have done their job

Everyone's exploring for altruistic/self-interested reasons, not because ...it's their fucking job ...they're chasing the bad end of an economic boom ...investors have taken a punt on them and want payback

If one ship in Earth's possession is FTL, so are all of them ...ditto artificial gravity

Everyone's fully-trained and knows how the ship and equipment work to a high degree of detail, just like everyone today is a great driver and finds it trivially easy to, say, change a spark plug

Being versed in the high technology of one age and culture makes one fluent in the high technology of all previous ages and equivalent cultures (yeah, let me put your iPhone in Arabic and we'll see how you do)

When alien high technology is found, it's ...usable by the finder because it happens to work with a five-fingered appendage of roughly hand-size ...covered in almost-human iconography/instructions (because your iPhone is covered in printed instructions, of course) ...recognisable as such

Excellent timing on this post Charlie. At this moment I'm fighting off an attack novel on very similar lines...

2:

On biology, here are a couple that you missed.

  • Viruses are the scary things
  • Really alien life is a sign of sophistication. 2b. Starfish aliens are a sign of sophistication.
  • Unpacking: 1. Viruses are basically hacks on a genetic code. While I wouldn't be surprised if DNA is widespread, I'd be amazed if the code translates to the same amino acids on every planet. Heck, that's not strictly true even here. As a result, we don't have to worry about alien viruses hacking our genome.

    What we do have to worry about are organisms using us as raw materials, which means bacteria, fungi, and insects munching away. Fungal infections can get rather gross (google "Face eating fungus"), or we can talk about gangrene. Anyway, those would be more typical on alien worlds.

  • Alien life will be really alien. Yeah, if we can settle the world, probably life will be tiny bags of water, built to maximize internal and external surface area. How big will those bags be? Probably across the same large range that we see here on Earth. They won't be tiny (cf: Robinson's Aurora failed at this), because too small and all the mechanisms of life won't fit. An atom's an atom, after all, and too few of them and you're nanite won't run. Life runs on membrane surface area, so if the cells are too big (cf: Greg Bear's Legacy, where the aliens were sort of acellular), and there's not enough membrane space for everything that needs to happen to keep the organism working. That constrains cells to the relatively few orders of magnitude that (surprise!) we see on Earth.
  • The point is, if you know enough biology, you know why certain things are the way they are. Fiddling with this is more a sign of of cluelessness than cleverness.

    2b. Starfish (intelligent) aliens are fine, so long as they don't have campfires. This is the whole argument about humans coevolving with fire. Indeed, intelligent aliens who have been around for awhile should have coevolved with everything they depend on, from fire to domesticated organisms. An ancient civilized race probably won't suffer from the equivalent of lactose intolerance, for that matter, but something built like a T. Rex won't make campfires, even if it has a wonderfully poetic intelligence. Form doesn't just embody function, if evolution is involved, form is entirely derived from past history.

    Speaking of civilization: 3. Progress is inevitable. This is a third rail in current Space Opera, because unless you're EE Smith, Gene Rodenberry, or George Lucas, you don't get out into space unless Progress takes you there. It's an increasingly reactionary literature, is it not? And nuclear wars are passe, so no one's going to arise after a nuclear war, be peaceful, and go to space as part of a multi-ethnic society, correct?

  • If you deal with a species that is as old as humans but never went to space, they are, by definition Primitive, at best Noble Savages, and they will be exploited, because manifest destiny.
  • Incidentally, I think it's okay for spaceships to be symmetrical. If you're pushing through center of mass, you don't particularly want it flying in some weird curve or skywriting on launch, right?

    By the way, if we're going to endlessly revisit the years since 1492 by pasting them into space with colonial empires and all, can we concentrate on the problems of the 16th and 17th Centuries, rewritten into space? Those were happy fun times.

    Personally, I'd love to see space opera set in this kind of galaxy. It can even be with nothing but humans. Has it ever been done?

    3:

    Oh here's another one...

    Alien high technology... ...is either utterly self-contained (and handily carries around an entire wikipedia of their culture because that's convenient) ...or the infrastructure it connects to is handily still operational and happens to be at the exact same state of compatibility that the device was when both were abandoned

    4:

    I still seem to be able to read Space Opera, even though some part of my brain keeps shouting that even if you reduce transport costs to a millionth of a cent per ton It still doesn't work

    5:

    Oh and another serious bugbear of mine: The biggest sources of problems with a spaceship are engines and life support, not plumbing and fluids. Slosh doesn't exist (despite your artificial gravity!), the toilet pumps never get the wrong thing flushed down them, and the various sweet, grey and black water tanks (which I'm betting your ship doesn't have the volume to hold anyway) never have any flaws, busted welds, weak connections or blocked ports.

    Signed, someone who deals with far too much of this shit on an actual ship.

    6:

    Oh yeah, under Culture:

    --Earth will always look like it does now, for Suburban America values of Now, because History Must Be Preserved (we have so little of it).

    Incidentally, can I make a pitch for Polynesian design, which is where some culture figures out what it needs to live in space (or in the tropical Pacific), and all the colonies that it creates are some version of that culture, mutated rather dramatically to fit wherever they ended up? That actually has happened. Of course, the Micronesian experience was fairly different (compare Guam with Kiribati). Anyway, space colonization doesn't have to be an endless repeat of European expansion, unless that's the only thing that's selling...Actually, nevermind (just as we won't talk about the Indian Ocean trade before the Europeans got there...).

    7:

    Aren't bubbles in lines a fairly big issue, especially in free fall?

    8:

    While I wouldn't be surprised if DNA is widespread, I'd be amazed if the code translates to the same amino acids on every planet.

    Eh? I'd be astonished if our codon language is universal; I suspect even ribosomes may be an exotic innovation -- possibly one candidate for the Great Filter!

    Viruses are encoding-specific; if transcription doesn't work exactly the same way between alien biospheres, viruses won't work.

    ... Oh, you were being ironic. Smileys, dude, you need to add smileys.

    9:

    I'm looking through something I wrote (I was aiming for SF-Thriller; trying to write space opera like a techno-thriller rather than the Western/ Pulp-Adventure many of the cliches above have their origins in) and I've got all the pipes gurgling and using pumps to trim the spaceship and having to reset the various fluid systems every time they start the engines or stop and find themselves in micro-gravity.

    I'm just lampshading the problem really, but at least I've not completely ignored it.

    So anyway to answer the actual question:

    Everybody is crazy about having sex in space. ... Especially in micro-gravity... ... Because you just float and don't push away from your partner(s) or start to spin... ... And the various effects of micro gravity on your body won't act to lower your libido.

    Also everything else about free fall.

    10:

    Planets rotate east-to-west

    Maybe the trope should be "There is a universal Aristotelian set of directions. And a universal calendar valid for everyone, even those traveling at FTL."

    Thing is, without that universal frame of reference, how do you determine "east"? Easy and most useful method is "Where the sun rises." (Yes, it's planet-specific. So is "up".)

    11:

    Oh yeah, Alien Technology (with reverb, erb, erb)

    --It'll work one million years after it was created, because aliens.

    --It'll work 1,000 years after it was created, because aliens.

    --High tech lasts forever, primitive tech rots. Unless it's a booby trap.

    --The Squad of Marines Rule is ignored. This is the idea that a Squad of US Marines could put up a better fight than whatever troop of stormtroopers or high tech warriors are portrayed. Star Wars stormtroopers are a key example of this, but far from the only ones. Don't forget, according to the Mythbusters, Star Wars blaster bolts travel around 120 miles per hour, a bit too fast to parry readily, but not bullet speed.

    12:

    Though it gets a little shaggy in the third book, I think Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy actually passes this entire test.

    13:

    Aren't bubbles in lines a fairly big issue, especially in free fall?

    Any big enough bubble is a potential airlock. In a gravity well you have the luxury of being able to have an unpressurised tank side, with outlets at the bottom and a pump that can handle a metre or two of head (distance it has to suck the fluid up vertically) and push it into the pressurised side (so you can have taps and showers). I assume in freefall the whole system needs to be pressurised, storage and all, although I have no real idea.

    Actually, now I think about it, wasn't the Apollo 13 problem caused by a malfunction in some part of the service module's fluid infra?

    14:

    ... in Distant Futures where we have not Outgrown Such Silly Superstitions, only mid-20th century mainstream christianity survives and it hasn't changed a bit, apart from maybe becoming a bit more liberal.

    ... Except where it's the Roman Catholic church that survives, with genial parish priests with Irish surnames.

    ... the interplanetary church has the same theology and liturgy and festivals on every part of every planet, and it's never the kind of thing that causes people on the same planet, let alone on other planets, to: - issue diplomatic protests about animal cruelty - point and laugh - get film of it for an amusing 'and finally' item in news broadcasts.

    ... and single planetary religions happen all the time without anyone having to be sent to any kind of camp.

    15:

    As I read your list, several times I shook my head in disbelief... and then reminded myself that I generally do not read space opera. I read Alastair Reynolds, "James Corey"[*], and yes, Charlie Stross. In other words, writers who tend to pay attention to the kind of faults you listed. I don't remember when was the last time I read a book with anything like a "Galactic Emperor" -- most likely the second Mote book.

    [*] "The Expanse" books often get criticized on the topic of "stealth in space", but I think unfairly. First, their stealth is directional, i.e. they suppress thermal emission on one side of a ship by redirecting to the other side. Which is much more realistic -- indeed, real life stealth is directional. Second, even directional stealth goes to hell the moment engine is turned on.

    OTOH, "The Expanse" adds an item to your list: Rocky or even icy asteroids can be spun up for internal gravity without flying apart.

    16:

    Actually, one place Robinson thoroughly screwed up in his Mars Trilogy was insulation and the lack thereof.

    That's a big problem that deserves it's own trope:

    --Tunnels in asteroids (on Mars, on comets) are rarely insulated, made airtight, or checked for weird particulate and chemical issues (cf the smell of moondust).

    If you've got gigatonnes of rock that are at or below freezing, that's a freaking huge thermal mass that needs to be warmed. While I'm all for boring into solid rocks and living in tunnels, I'd strongly suggest laying down some insulation (or better, suspending the living spaces off the surface, so that there's a vacuum gap), so that you don't waste all your energy warming the rock up.

    In the Mars Trilogy, Robinson had way too much bare rock, not to mention people getting naked against it.

    Oh, and another screwup that he handwaved: --interplanetary EVA spacesuits. They're amazing (considering the radiation environment out there), but for some reason, no one ever realizes how bulletproof they'd be. Personally, whatever Robinson was using for radiation shielding, I want to own that patent.

    Not a Robinson problem, but don't get me started about skinsuits, let alone paint on spacesuits, especially when they're used in interplanetary or interstellar space.

    17:

    That may have something to do with KSR's Mars trilogy not being space opera. Ahem.

    18:

    Also, a few more I don't think are on there:

    • The armed forces the same ranks, mores, and structures as the ancient US Navy
    • All political terms, by law, derive from ancient Rome (emperor, senate, consul, republic, ...)
    • Despite interacting for thousands of years together, humans and AIs stumble over idioms and the AI's inability to understand emotion or human cognition limits
    • Colonies never follow the models of Communist China or Singapore
    • Aliens can always be slotted into earth's biological tree
    • Despite the fact that modern societies can barely sustain their numbers, Earth can fully populate thousands of worlds in the next 500 years
    • Force fields in pastel colors can stop anything physical, unless for plot reasons they can't
    • Computer systems are interoperable (even across species), can be hacked or fully searched in seconds, and are programmed by voice
    • If a species Ascends, it is either bored with life, or whimsical, or utterly incomprehensible
    • If knowledge of Earth is preserved, people have an undying fascination with the 20th century
    19:

    Human society is divided between people in FTL spaceships whipping up soy lattés from pure energy and colonists limited to manual technology to build mediaeval hamlets; somehow this enormous wealth inequality does not lead to disillusion or revolution.

    20:

    I have no problem with "Geosynchronous orbit is easy to get to". Any milieu with enough space capability to qualify as "space opera" should have trivially easy access from planetary surface to geosynchronous orbit, or any orbit. If it does not, hard to see how it can be "space opera" in any meaningful sense. By the same token, Mach 2.2+ travel should be commonplace -- although not necessarily through dense atmosphere.

    Unless you have planet surface to planet surface wormholes, like Peter Hamilton's Commonwealth saga. In which case space travel, i.e. physical objects hurtling through vacuum, is completely neglected. Which is a major plot point in Commonwealth books.

    21:

    Anyway, Charlie, for Scalzi-level sales numbers, wouldn't you want to write about the dashing rogue who charges the deck of his pirated space yawl, armed with a monokatana and a brace of blasters tucked into the sash of his spacesuit?

    Of course, if you're choking on that image, try this for a chaser.

    22:

    LURVED the "Evil Overlord's List"

    However: Re: Planets that can be lived on & are likely to have life & atmospheres we can "use" Poul Anderson, more than once IIRC, suggested that planets around (relatively large) red-dwarf stars are the "place to look" say K1 type?

    Cats off spacecraft - yes, but with implanted tracking device. Rats - on spacecraft - really?

    "As fast as you like, but has to be in a straight line... May I suggest that you might want to very slightly bend the supposed rules here & allow FTL, but only under those narrow conditions, so that closed, back-before-you-started anti-causality loops remain forbidden (Yes, it's a McGuffin, so what?)

    Oh yes, running a starship & 1920's tramp freighter & costs - could be wrong - think about how relative costs of running even quite simple things have changed with the available technologies. Ss, some things will get a LOT cheaper, a few things will get more expensive. See also "economics" .....

    23:

    "Uranoid" planets I can vaguely remember at least two stories where these were introduced, if only because the supposed weather-patterns would be ... odd. Oh yes, Planets: WEATHER Now there's a n other whole set of boo-boos to avoid,

    24:

    ... Because space pirate weapons are as deadly as shotguns, not H-bombs

    That part I find entirely believable. Pirates want to capture their prey, not to reduce it to plasma, so their weapons by necessity would be fairly non-lethal.

    If such non-lethal weapons are not possible, then space pirates are not possible either.

    25:

    -Major alien civilizations should not have a single monoculture that apparently all of them ascribe to aside from rare individuals unless there's a very strong reason for it (i.e. they went through some type of horrific purge). I'm looking at you, Star Trek.

    -Not just aneutronic fusion power, but fusion power in general.

    The "planets are close together" makes more sense now from what we've seen of exoplanet astronomy. Nearly half of the multi-planet systems discovered by Kepler Space Telescope are made up of planets with extremely compact orbits. Imagine a setting where the "habitable" colonial planet is at a comparable distance from its Sun as Earth . . . but there are seven more planets, ranging from the size of Mars to Uranus, packed into the space between it and the star.

    26:

    Yeah, well, planetary religions & beliefs. The still grieved-for Banksy did a very thorough job on those, didn't he? Oh, wasn't it Banksy who pointed out that "Single Planetary Government" usually meant a cruel & vicouls dictatorship with bodies hidden somewhere?

    27:

    It is in conjunction with "The native flora and fauna use a biochemistry that we can derive sustenance from" trope, that ignoring cats and rats becomes a howler.

    28:

    Oooh, a Stross smackdown! I'm honored. Didn't realize that "Space Opera" had such a rigorous definition. I do think that trilogy fits with the definition provided in the introductory paragraph here, on wikipedia.

    P.S. @Heteromeles makes some good points.

    29:

    A rule of thumb I came up with over a decade ago is, "never pitch a multi-year job you're not enthusiastically happy to work on, lest someone pay you to do it and you spend the next several years swearing at your younger self".

    So, no. I wouldn't do that.

    30:

    In Empires, all real rulers are from a (small) family. This is because real rulership is inherited, not taught.

    So, all rebellions are really about succession in that small family.

    Also, the point about Monarchies (and the mention of the Free Trader Beowulf) made me laugh out loud, because in Traveller, the Emperor of the Third Imperium was a single point of failure. Archduke Dulinor did fire those shots (in the MegaTraveller backstory) and doomed the Imperium to a drawn-out civil war and eventual destruction. (Traveller sure checks many of those other points there, though. :)

    31:

    wasn't it Banksy who pointed out that "Single Planetary Government" usually meant a cruel & vicouls dictatorship with bodies hidden somewhere?

    I thought that was me what did that ...

    32:

    Here's a critical monograph contextualizing the thematic elements of space opera from the Encyclopedia of Science Fiction.

    KSR's Mars trilogy lacks the romantic/escapist adventurism, and the sense of scale, associated with space opera: it focusses narrowly on the nuts-and-bolts technology of Mars colonization; and it was rigorously written against the details of Areography as understood prior to the revived wave of Mars exploration of the 1990s (using Viking- and Mars- era probe data). Furthermore, its focus on ideology and politics is decidedly antithetical to the space operatic sensibility. More here.

    33:

    My excuse for that small boo-boo is that my memory is not always correct. Is yours, even though you're 18 (19?) years younger than me?

    34:

    Can I correct that, with a very slight modification?

    "In Empires, all real rulers are from a (small) family. This is because real rulership is inherited, but if the empire is to last it is also taught."

    And, may I add, there should be an escape clause if the new Emperor turns out a bad'un, with the new new Emperor being carefully inserted into post. L M Bujold ... (?)

    35:

    aaah, this is brilliant

    36:

    Future Human Space Travel looks like NASA (or the US Navy) writ large. Everything's either Starfleet/The Navy or single-craft sole-traders. There's no private (ahem) enterprise like Maersk or Lufthansa. And yet all the ships are made by multinationals like Messerschmit-Bolkow-Blom-Honda-McBoeing.

    37:

    More on language, from a self-confessed amateur language-geek. Non-comprehensive, because I'm absolutely fallible.

    Language and culture have a symbiotic relationship - but the exact details are going to differ from region to region.

    I will privilege sound/pronunciation based language systems because that's where I feel most comfortable myself. Obviously, YMMV. That said:

    Some efforts at depicting different languages just try too hard; a little "exoticism" goes a long way. Alphabet-soup is hard to keep track of - a little base-consistency in nouns for common items will give an integrated impression less likely to throw a reader out of the story. On the other hand, even things we consider basic, like vowel-consonant features, can lead to surprising cross-circuits: I try to form a sentence in Italian, and end up too easily in Japanese - all because they contain for me a similar "mouth-feel" in the consonant-vowel patterns. This despite wildly divergent vocabularies and grammars.

    World-building languages and their cultures must take account of local ecologies and religious values when considering writing systems: I severely disappointed a friend who showed me a fan fiction, in which a life-loving, Zen-like character from a major film series, living on a "jungle planet", was imparting his teachings on VELLUM. Poor friend got a ten-minute lecture on plant-based alternatives common in Asian cultures.

    Systems with extremely diverse grammars will be harder for individuals to traverse. Harder, but not impossible. Children in constant contact with multiple cultures will pick up the languages scary-fast, if they're allowed, and frequently are the interpreters for their slower parents; adult learners will give hints as to their native languages by the "mistakes" they make in their target non-native language.

    Not even grammatical concepts are universal - our "pre-positions" are "post-positions" in Japanese (or, to use the specific jargon, "particles", but that also includes items that function as topic markers, used in different ways from English.) I've encountered the notion of two sentence-structure categories: my mother-tongue Subject-Verb-Object, and outside of that, Subject-Object-Verb. I'm afraid I don't know enough of this (outside of personal frustration at "left-branching" structuring of sentences) to point to further consequences that would give good story for a reader.

    I don't know where else to take this, just now. I only know that after having learned (as an adult) my first non-native language (I'm functionally up to 3, at the moment; that's probably a limit given my age and non-super intelligence, no matter how much curiosity I possess), science fiction books and films/tv kept throwing me out of the story; I'm trying to record some of why.

    And probably sounding like a crank. Thanks for listening!

    38:

    Not crankish at all, that stuff's interesting!

    (It's a complication that most space opera desperately tries to ignore, though, hence hacks from "trade pidgin" or "galactic standard English" to universal translators and Babel fish.)

    39:

    I can't imagine a universe where Charlie could have written Old Mans War

    40:

    (assuming FTL is possible because it's not really space opera without it):

    -There's just one loophole in physics that permits FTL travel, -Which has just one method of implementation, so -All FTL enabled spacecraft have have the same kinds of engines using the same underlying physics, so -Our heroes will always be able to immediately use and understand the FTL engines on an enemy or even an alien spaceship without any difficulties (beyond a brief time of figuring out "which button does what".

    Also, FTL works just like normal sublight travel, so while underway at FTL speeds between the stars, ships can:

    -Find each other -Communicate with each other -Plot an intercept course -Transfer personnel from ship to ship either directly by docking, or via smaller lifeboat sized FTL ships, -Engage in space battles with each other.

    41:

    Here are mine.

    Military combat . All combat follows the Napoleonic-WWII modes of war. . Massacre based war like what happened in the Americas, what's that? https://www.nsfwcorp.com/dispatch/twelve-days-of-1812-day-six/ . If this type of war happens, only the bad guys do it . No wars resemble the caste war http://exiledonline.com/the-mayan-caste-war-viva-los-machetes/ . You can write an entire list simply based on the War Nerd's analysis . All conflict is fought on the ground, in the air, or in space? . Water navies? Underwater navies? What are those?

    Geography . Oceans. Those are the very large swimming pools/fishing holes/recreation centers people can safely ignore?

    Orbital Mechanics . Everything happens in the Star's orbital plane. There's a gentleman's agreement that all battles must be fought within this orbital plane

    Biology . Everything with teeth either can become a pet or is honor bound to kill you . Every species is as intelligent as you or no more intelligent than the average dog, cat, or lion (I realize I compressed a large amount of differences in that statement). No grey areas

    42:

    On languages, I hope it's OK to plug my own site and book, the Language Construction Kit. E.g it will explain the six basic words orders (all are attested on Earth though three of them are rare).

    The intersection of good conlangs (constructed languages) and published SF is nearly nil. Klingon is quite well done, as it was made by a linguist. Though another linguist will recognize that he made it seem alien to English speakers by borrowing features from Native American languages.

    When monolingual English speakers attempt to create weird languages from scratch, they invariably are far less unusual than existing natural languages. Similarly, the sorts of linguistic conundrums SF writers come up with ("What if a language had no metaphors?") are less interesting than real linguistic things: mother-in-law languages, children developing their own Sign languages, polysynthesis, evidentials, having to learn an entirely new language when you want to write, literary languages that can't be read out loud and understood...

    43:

    This post was great as always, but here's one small nitpick: 'asexual' in relation to humans is a sexual orientation, not a gender. You might've meant agender.

    44:

    This might be pushing the bounds of what is considered "Space Opera" but...

    • Humans have never considered applying all the amazing technologies they've discovered to self-augmentation.
    • Un-augmented humans remain competitive or superior to AIs in at least some areas.
    • If any race decided to engage in self-augmentation, humans are competitive or superior to them in at least some areas.

    Also:

    • There are no long-term societal goals other than expansion, maintaining the status quo, or making everyone happier.
    • There are no ongoing social disruptions as a result of recent technological innovations.
    45:

    People will be able to make starships and other very high tech but will still be stuck with the original human body design and lifespan and other limitations. As well as critical shortages of necessities. Because biological and economic limitations are great sources of drama.

    46:

    Planets that are completely covered in water or only have a few islands are convenient spots to set up bases for refueling since the weather is at worst the equivalent of a Caribbean port during storm season.

    47:

    Since OGH said this is interesting:

    I thought about that aspect a while back. It seems that all human languages are based on very similar grammatical concepts, including the aboriginal Australian ones, though I couldn't find anything on Andaman. I have speculated on one which would have no substantives or verbs (i.e. you could not express "the cat sat on the mat" but could directly express philosophical concepts), and another where the primary inflections were not tenses, cases, etc. but things like evidential levels. The latter isn't THAT far from some human languages, of course.

    While the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis has been largely abandoned, only a few people can think or communicate in terms outside their culture. I have personal experience of quite a few cases of this. This is one of the reasons that it takes generations for people from a 'primitive' culture to break out, unless taken as very young children, though it is politically incorrect to say so. It is unclear where are innate limits are, too.

    So I would say that it's not the speech that is likely to be the main issue (assuming machinery to map one to the other), but the underlying conceptual model. A few stories include that, but most assume common (or at least learnable) conceptual models.

    48:

    A few biology ones:

    Species can have stable populations that survive mostly by cannibalism.

    Things that have only evolved one or a few times on Earth will always be present in alien biospheres (feathers, lactation, powered flight, flowers).

    Things that have evolved many times on Earth will not in alien biospeheres (trees).

    Features found together on Earth will also be found together in alien biospeheres (feathers and flight, feathers and beaks, fur and lactation).

    Complex plants and animals can evolve to survive disastrous celestial events that occur many generations apart (e.g. are able to freeze without damage when the orbit shifts every 10 thousand years, and will not lose these costly abilities in the intervening generations)

    Wetlands and jungles are full of biting insects (never mind that the tundra and boreal forest are almost certainly worse on Earth)

    Every species on alien planets has a name and a well-understood biology after a short period of colonisation.

    Obligate symbiotes are common among large animals, even though they are pretty much unheard of on Earth.

    Life cycles involving metamorphosis into radically different forms is common in alien biospheres, and there is no need for the different stages to be similar in any way.

    49:

    Orbital mechanics approximate to driving between USAian cities on highways: -A ship that leaves later, but accelerates faster, will follow approximately the same arc of a ship that left earlier on a journey to the same destination. (passing slowly & closely enough to wave at through the window) -You can totally stop for a Ceres-burger at a convenient rest stop on the way. -And take pictures of the conveniently located scenic ringed planet -Fuel use is based on time in flight, not change in velocity. -Ships have a top speed, which is more relevant than maximum acceleration

    50:

    Interstellar travel is possible (presumably, this being space opera) and there are many aliens in this galaxy and none of them are disposed to exploring and or colonizing everything. Because they would be here already, you see, if that's what they were into.

    A suspiciously high percentage of the aliens we encounter will have comparable technology to ourselves, and a similar inability or unwillingness to transcend that original biological form despite also having recently discovered interstellar travel.

    51:

    The problem is that Space Opera is written to be readily intelligible. If you really try to explain a civilization, it's not going to be readable.

    So a lot of those problems are of the Stage Setting kind. East is wherever the sun rises, and you don't need to compare. The people won't be speaking intelligible English (though they may call it that). The military ranks need to have conventional names to be understood. It's a translation problem. It even exists in the history of the US. What's a Colonel? In Kentucky it was the head of a militia group, elsewhere it meant other things (though I'm not sure what).

    And a lot of the listed problems aren't totally problems, but just require sufficient justification and limitation. Someone has already mentioned stealth technology, I'd include hiding behind/among asteroids. If you know what direction the opponents are looking from it's not an impossible problem, though it requires a lot of work and probably some low visibility sensor drones.

    And to assume that nuclear plants will always be as difficult to maintain as the currently are ignores, e.g., the history of radio and computers. If nuclear plants start to become common, then they WILL be easier to maintain because they'll be designed that way. What that will involve is less clear. Pebble bed reactors might be more easily made simple to operate and maintain...perhaps. Or maybe each plant will have its own maintenance robots (plural so that they can repair each other). Some way will be found, or it won't happen.

    And I'm not sure that there won't be a "Galactic Empire". It would be a rather loose one, and would need to be driven by some strong advantages in membership, and allow for withdrawal in the case of disagreement, but Empires are one of the forms that are more stable in the face of slow communication. Here the communication would be slow enough that it would probably be more symbolic than real, and actually sort of a standards organization, but it's a lot more plausible than a Democracy. If it turned towards coerced membership, though, it would be a recipe for rapid disintegration...unless cheap FTL becomes possible, and then the "Emperor" would have to be a figurehead for a superhuman AI because complexity.

    OTOH, fast transport and no government is a recipe for disaster and civilization ending wars.

    But if it can't be understood quickly, it's not a Space Opera. And that's going to mean glossing over a lot of things you don't want to explain in detail. It's sort of like the inverse of the problem of Ralph 124C 41+...nobody in that civilization would marvel at the things he encountered, but what Gernsback was showing required a travelogue kind of presentation.

    52:

    "I try to form a sentence in Italian, and end up too easily in Japanese"

    I have essentially the same experience (spanish/japanese) Once,in japan, making conversation with the people in the other bath, found out they were Spanish. So, my brain, now conditioned with 2 weeks of my bad Japanese, has to remember my high school Spanish. Massive vocabulary fail. I generally either got grammar from one language & words from the other, or half in one & half in the other.

    53:

    Add:

    • Interspecies sex is wildly kinky and / or addictive
    • Interspecies sex never happens because Aliens don't understand primitive desires (add: squick factor for dogwhistles as appropriate)
    • Interspecies sex is a TABOO and our star-crossed lovers will bend time & space to enact their desires
    • Pornography, loneliness, NEET behaviours, anxiety etc don't happen to aliens: their minds don't vary too much
    • Opposite of this: Aliens who do X with humans are like total perverts (I'm thinking of giant hairy space mammoths here)

    AND THE BIGGEST:

    • Start every chapter with a pithy quotation or reference to the lore-at-large which both lampshades the action but also hints at the vast depths the reader should be pondering (the Dune thing)

    I'm sure there's more but epic list (!) and I don't want to splodge on the flow.

    54:

    (Although - the entire entry lore to chapters is 100% great, imo).

    ~

    Interesting thought experiment (a la Stand on Zanzibar or The Stars My Destination):

    How possible would it be to write a Space Opera these days that had wildly different meanings entirely dependent on the readers' own Mind-set?

    nose wiggle

    55:

    Something very peculiar going on here ... "nsfwork.com" & all sub-heads are "not available" & I got a weird error message, too. Is Google blocking it, is there a spam/badnet danger, or is it the spooks? Any alternative open links?

    56:

    If you want interstellar travel without FLT then set the story in a star cluster where the average separation is 0.1 lyr

    57:

    Starships will need a "bridge" where all the human navigators and pilots (because computers can't do that stuff) must be physically together so they can talk to each other. Because you can't teleconference from your stateroom (hyperspace functions much like an EMP, interfering with electronics). For that matter, starship maintenance and repair is physically done by human workers rather than robots.

    58:

    I don't know if there are any alternative open links. These links worked for me.

    I googled War Nerd War of 1812 Day 6 Tecumseh, and War Nerd Caste War.

    59:

    "Native" i.e. animal flight is quite common, actually. The evolutionary advantage is so great that lots of taxa do it. ... birds, insects, fishes, bats, pteranodon, etc ....

    60:

    Or if you don't want FTL, the Warp drive that allows worry free relativistic travel (shoos away space dust and reduces fuel requirements) damps electronics by interfering with the band gap in semiconductors so nothing solid state functions. This does double duty making starships operate on a low tech level while in flight and providing a low rent equivalent of FTL.

    61:

    I'd include hiding behind/among asteroids. Which reminds me - in Charlie's original list we had: " Asteroids are so close together that you can hide between them ... but they never clump into planets" Err ... and our "Asteroid belt" hasn't clumped into planets, either, has it? We all know why, but watch out for that one?

    62:

    Despite any difference in technology/power, the oppressed underdog has a chance of winning. (Advances in technology have the potential to increase power differences if those without power don't have the tech. e.g. the bad-guys in Avatar didn't mind killing everyone, why didn't they do it with a giant rock dropped from orbit, and wipe everyone out, so they could strip-mine the place)

    All of the alien races have similar technology levels, despite there being no reason for them to have developed at the same time.

    Within a generation or two of joining the space-faring races, humanity reaches a level that they can hold their own against attack.

    Humanity could survive first contact with a more technologically advanced species without the culture shock and negative effects that colonised people have experienced in Earth history.

    Human(/western) culture/values won't change much in the next few hundred years.

    The political systems/structures that work well for humans will work well for aliens. (Democracy wouldn't make sense if 90% of the population were non-sapient worker drones.)

    Warning: A lot of language/culture pet peeves follow. A lot of it comes under the WEIRD assumptions that Charlie already identified.

    When dealing with differences between cultures, western values always go together. e.g. you won't have to pick between siding with a religiously tolerant culture with slavery and a religiously intolerant culture without slavery.

    Personal identity in all cultures is driven by the same things as in western culture. (Westerners tend to talk about what you do for a living as a first/early topic of conversation, there are cultures where the first topic is your genealogy. I'm sure there are other examples.)

    Translating a newly encountered language without a cooperative teacher, or a Rosetta stone is straight-forward (let alone with those things). ( universal translator )

    You can either understand/translate a language fully or not at all. You won't have that learning phase where you understand half of what's going on.

    It is possible to translate all of a language based on a subset of a language. (How are you going to translate words you haven't heard before?)

    Words/concepts have a one-to-one mapping between languages.

    Languages always have grammars similar to your language. No agglutinative languages, every language has past/present/future tense, gender/noun-classes never get more complicated than male/female/neutral.

    I think there's a lot of opportunity just in breaking the WEIRD assumptions. Even within Earth cultures, there's a lot of languages/cultures that break what many would think are universals.

    The Guugu Yimithirr language has no terms for left/right/forward/backward, instead everyone knows which way is north/south/east/west. The Pirahã language doesn't have numbers. Silbo Gomero can be whistled. Try getting used to Ergative case. Of course throwing a lot of language detail in can come across as strange for the sake of strange. But, when putting in language detail, it's a mistake to just swap out English words for made-up ones.

    There is the potential for any of the cliches from non-scifi stories involving interaction between westerners and foreign cultures or colonised/indigenous people.

    63:

    FAIL again I wonder if internal-searching the War Nerd will work - will report back

    64:

    How possible would it be to write a Space Opera these days that had wildly different meanings entirely dependent on the readers' own Mind-set?

    It's entirely possible, but it's stunt writing. Also, most of the readers will miss it.

    (Lots of folks failed to understand "Glasshouse" completely because they misread Robin/Reeve disastrously ...)

    65:

    Gliding is common. Powered flight has evolved four times: insects, birds, bats, pterosaurs. Yeah, part of the reason it's hasn't more is probably competition/predation from the animals already there, but it clearly isn't that easy to evolve.

    It doesn't seem at all unlikely go me that flight would never evolve on a planet with higher gravity or thinner air.

    66:

    Well, two things:

    1 It worked well for some; I wouldn't call some of them stunt writing - as long as the message was broadly the same for each tier. That's the real genius of Dune. 2 That's how you get the prizes while still filling the cheap-seats

    I'm just throwing back the 25% angle at you - I kinda owe you a nice retirement & all.

    ahem

    Not that the kinky sex things were anything to do with 50 Shades of Grey.

    cough Incase cough

    Nope, kinky alien sex never sells.

    67:

    Old War Nerd Articles under "exiled" show, but nothing at all under nsfw will even peep - in Chrome at any rate .... Ah - works in Firefox .... Wonder why that was?

    68:

    "Glasshouse". I wonder whether I was one of them, because I didn't spot anything more than ordinarily deceptive.

    69:

    See also The (Grand) List of Science Fiction Cliches (also here. Something's up with the icon scaling on my browser (Firefox/OSX), so I'd suggest the latter link, even if it's probably not "official".

    70:

    There's no end of problems with Aurora. ^^

    71:

    ISTR that C. J. Cherryh has had spaceships running into problems with plumbing and waste-water.

    72:

    IIRC it's paywalled.

    73:

    You're familiar with the British Army slang meaning of the word "Glasshouse"?

    Did you wonder if Robin/Reeve's understanding of the reason they were in it was entirely correct?

    74:

    All the mentions of dust may imply (in the absence of simple ignorance or carelessness) 'Force-shields and/or deflector beams work perfectly and (in energetic terms) affordably.'.

    And, of course, there are the usual 'All the author's political and philosophical beliefs are borne-out by events.' and 'All characters who disagree with the authors takes on Good, God, Evil, politics, economics, u.s.w. either die, learn the error of their ways, or are just plain evil.'.

    75:

    The "primitives on the planet, sophisticates in space" thing was nicely lampshaded in Stations of the Tide.

    76:

    Greg got uplifted to Firefox.

    oO

    A million old druids cried out as they were freed - and they cried: the Maypole domination of old is gone, we might use standing stones once again.

    That's Heavy Messing.

    ~

    At a serious (work) level:

    Consider Phlebas did what it did because it was read as the anti-hero as unwilling hero in Vietnam and who was fighting on the wrong side to due ideological reasons.

    Spoiler / fun fact: ask 5000 people what they remember about the novel, less than 3 will remember that the protagonist is a member of a species that's dying out and who can mimic other Identities - it just has 0% impact compared to the rest. It's literally the trans test of identity at work.

    Yep: read it again.

    Bora Horza Gobuchul is a changer who supports the Idirans because ze considers biological "supremacy" over Machine integral to ze's actual survival... even if ze hates the Idirans.

    Why?

    Because the Culture's artificial alteration (using technology) of what ze is as a species threatens to destroy ze's species entire existence.

    ~

    Hmm.

    @Private Iron: How's that, Bwana?

    77:

    Actually, one of our major cognitive screwups we're only now realizing is the idea that Earth's climate is normally constant, and that alien planets that have, saying highly elliptical orbits will have bizarre adaptations.

    According to things like the ice core climate records, it turns out that our current more-or-less constant climate is probably only about 5,000 years old. If we weren't screwing with it, it might stay relatively constant for about another ~10,000 years before the Milankovitch cycles start things changing again. Possibly less before another ice age cropped up (which, ironically, is no longer a threat).

    Secondly, with the ice ages, it appears that the problem wasn't the big ol' ice sheets at the poles, it was that Earth's climate got stuck "oscillating" between three metastable climate states with the oscillations over a period of ~1500 years (with a huge margin of variation) for most of each ice age, and the oscillations were on the scale of the climate change we're looking at in the next 50 years (and about on that same time scale for the changes too.The temperature changes were fast, then things held steady for awhile, then changed again). That constant oscillation may have been the biggest problem with the ice ages, not the temperature. Worse, the oscillations weren't driven by the Milankovitch cycles (apparently), but (apparently) by an unstable ice sheet on Hudson Bay that kept forming and breaking up.

    The tl;dr is that most of Earth's species, including our own, are adapted to a pretty wildly fluctuating climate, so long as they can migrate. Civilization as we understand it totally is not adapted to these kinds of oscillations, and people like Brian Fagan have argued that civilization as we know it is only possible when the climate stays very constant.

    Getting back to space opera, the point here is that we don't really understand changing climates, how we relate to them, how other biospheres might adjust to them, and even what a hypothetical civilization that dealt with big changes would look like.

    That's actually a reasonably good place to put some SF exploration.

    78:

    Some of the Economics issues make sense if you think of spaceports like airports or (earlier) seaports. There's a subculture of cosmopolitan travelers, and they spend most of their time in the equivalent of airport lounges, hotels near the airport, conference rooms, etc. There may be a separate subculture at the equivalents of truck stops, but that's more likely to be automated.

    In the final analysis, though, if the story makes much sense it isn't really space opera.

    79:

    When the main character is in trouble/ knackered in the "Foreigner" series, he remembers the arguments about slosh baffles in rocket fuel tanks.

    80:

    Just read the postscript: Ze's species goes extinct just after the war.

    That's the hidden level that most don't get.

    Consider Phlebas is about genocide [in the hard terminology]: the hidden joke is that 99% of readers miss it.

    81:

    Sentient aliens have the same cognitive biases as humans - or may be missing at most one of them.

    82:

    The one that comes to mind is "Old man's war", which could be read a couple of different ways depending on what you like or your age. Same with the book which inspired it of course...

    83:

    Powered flight has evolved four times: insects, birds, bats, pterosaurs.

    Minor digression: Is it clear that there was just one development of flight among insects? They're quite diverse, and I could imagine flappy wings appearing more than once among the bugs.

    But to redeem myself here and stay slightly on topic:

    On incomprehensively alien aliens, it is a trope and one of which I'm fond -- William Ten, the brothers Strugatski, John Varley, even OGH. But has it been worked over so much as to qualify as a cliché? I'd hope not.

    84:

    And to assume that nuclear plants will always be as difficult to maintain as the currently are ignores, e.g., the history of radio and computers. If nuclear plants start to become common, then they WILL be easier to maintain because they'll be designed that way. What that will involve is less clear. Pebble bed reactors might be more easily made simple to operate and maintain...perhaps.

    We already have simple hands-off nuclear power plants that are easy to maintain. They're called Radio Thermal Generators (RTGs). What they're not is energy-dense or cheap. They can be made cheaper using Sr-90 but they're heavier due to extra shielding requirements compared to space-rated Pu-239 RTGs. They work fine for SOSUS-style submarine detection systems though, especially with the deep ocean water to act as a cold sink for the thermocouples.

    The first generation of pebble-bed reactors have not been a great success. Moving very hot intensely-radioactive fuel around seems to be not that easy to do without damaging the pellets, causing dust and fragments to jam bits of machinery etc. The Chinese are building a commercial pebble-bed reactor at the moment but the Germans are waiting a few more decades before they dismantle their damaged reactors.

    85:

    All religions will conceive of deities in the western model.

    All religions will be comparable to some flavor of Western Christianity in a funny hat. ...except for the Space Jews. ...or the Space Norse.

    All religions will have a value system that is either the pinnacle of moral enlightenment as determined by the author, or the very worst of Kafkaesque excess. There is no middle ground. There are no religions with moral complexity, good intentions, and unfortunate blind spots.

    Notwithstanding the importance of respecting Space Christian dominance of the galaxy, there will be a large annual pilgrimage to Mecca/Shrine World Bravo/McGuffin Centauri.

    The pilgrims on this trip see nothing wrong with being religiously obligated to expose themselves to all the hazards mentioned in the Space Flight section.

    Even the most destitute of believers can scrape up the cash for a steerage ticket across the galaxy.

    Religions are able to maintain coherence and doctrinal consistency over distances of thousands of light years.

    86:

    I guess I'm one of the three.

    I'm not sure about the Culture being an existential threat to the changers. I got the impression that the changers becoming extinct was a side effect of them picking the wrong side in the Idiran war, and not being too populous in the first place.

    But yes, the story is a serious downer, which is one reason I don't recommend people start there on the Culture series. I like Excession for that because of the feel-good postscripts that end it on an up note... which is actually kind of unusual for Banks.

    87:

    Planets rotate east-to-west

    When you come to a new planet how do you define the compass points? Magnetic? Rotation? Habitation? Related to orbit around Sun? Related to galactic north?

    I read a long time back that "spin north" was common. In this model, rotating planets have their axis defined so that "sun rises in the east" is pretty much by definition.

    88:

    Try getting used to Ergative case.

    I googled ergative case, and it seems functionally identical to accusative case, which is standard in Slavic languages. What is the difference between the two?

    89:

    Thanks very much. Yes and yes. That's only what I consider ordinarily deceptive.

    90:

    "ask 5000 people what they remember about the novel, less than 3 will remember ..."

    You're kidding, Shirley?

    91:

    You have to read really close to get the hidden subtext (bearing in Mind that this was the first Culture novel):

    The implication was that the Changers in many ways read/copied/duplicated the ECG patterns / Minds of those who they morphed into.

    And, for Culture Minds, (cough Grey Area cough) this was verboten.

    And, even more hidden is the implication that the genocide by Culture Minds was deliberate.

    ~

    Again, not a common reading. But it's very much in there.

    Grey Area got away with it because they were a Culture Combat Vessel, and even then, they were exiled / socially excluded.

    ~

    Oh yes my little ones: hidden subtext of the Culture Novels really is Genocide.

    92:

    Spoilers:

    That's why a large amount of the later novels are about the afterlife and so on.

    Consider the range:

    From Genocide to Hells to Sublimed Entities making their living species do horrible things to Minds and the Infinite Fun and Madness in Castles (cough).

    ~

    Iain was toying with some really kinky ideas. (And no: hidden subtext doesn't mean Fascist you dumb ass - go back to your hole).

    ~

    shrug

    Trope to avoid:

    • Avoiding complexity because a focus group says people don't understand it.
    • Writing PaP and listening to MBAs who are pawns.

    It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does?

    93:

    The alien languages/communication thing I think you just have to swallow it and handwave it all under "translation convention". Linguistics is such a minority interest and translation convention such a widespread device that nobody is likely to jump down your throat for dodging the whole thing, whereas if you do make an effort at it, the linguists will jump down your throat because if you're not a Tolkien-level expert you will inevitably cock it up severely, and the non-linguist majority will be put off if there are a lot of silly words that they have to learn the meanings of (and even more so if the words are deliberately made to look alien, as it makes the reading experience rather like driving along a motorway that has random sand banks across it).

    It may be the case that an alien species communicates by means of a patch of chromatophores that change colour in the infra-red, but it rapidly gets tedious if every mention of the aliens communicating includes a reminder to the reader of how they do it. To mention it when the aliens are first described, possibly to include a scene that shows it's affected by IR levels/spectrum but not by ambient noise or something, and then to present the alien communication from then on as if they were speaking in English, is much more natural to read.

    Similarly when it comes to humans and aliens learning to communicate with each other: if the process is described with any pretension to realism it makes for a really dull bit of story. It flows much better to dodge the whole thing, whether by using Babel fish, by having the narrative skip ten years and resume when the problem's been dealt with, by having it not be possible at all beyond haphazardly figuring out one new concept every couple of months, or whatever.

    Alien "other rank" species: so there is a creature that gets its energy from oxidising sulphur erupted by fumaroles; it is strong to shift rocks, it is fast to escape more destructive types of volcanism, and it has high endurance so it can do the distance to find new fumarole fields. So it gets used as a beast of burden, like a horse or a camel. Again, it flows more naturally to describe it to begin with, and then to refer to it as "horse" or "camel", initially with quotes and later without, than to make up a name for it and use that. After all, if humans did discover such a beast, while it would be assigned a scientific name, people in general would say "them horse things" and later on just "horse".

    Be it noted that all these problems also crop up in straight non-SF books set wholly on Earth, and "pretend everyone is speaking in English" is by far the most-used/most-accepted solution. It doesn't make a lot of sense to insist that a different solution to the tried and tested one be adopted for the same problem just because it's SF.

    94:

    Speaking as someone who wrote about aliens using chromatophores to talk---actually, it's pretty easy. Anyone who's watched a cat's ears and tail can figure out a lot of it. Treat it as a conversation with a mime or a really intelligent cat and have a blast.

    Still, I agree about linguistics. Unless you have a point to make,* there's little reason getting fancy with the languages in the story. The best place for alien words is in nouns, place names, and proper names. Of course, if an alien action, like plotzing, is critical to the plot, then you'll have to have them plotz away, whether or not you tell the readers what plotzing is or leave them to figure it out from context.

    *For example, one might hypothesize that the Piraha were functionally enlightened due to using an artificial language created for them by an enlightened shaman at some point in the past. That language prevents them from thinking unenlightened thoughts that require recursion and thinking outside the now. They reportedly regularly saw gods that outsiders did not, so this could be possible, if you're into that sort of thing. That's a linguistic point that could be worked into a story.

    95:

    The scene you'll want is being tied up in chains in a dungeon when BHG is about to be tortured / killed.

    It's literally stated that ze is forgetting the memories of the person he copied...

    ~

    @Host

    Well, there's the actuality of it.

    Space Opera needs depth and ambiguity: otherwise 30 years later, no-one cares (cough MilSpec Puppies cough).

    So, don't be too offended that no-one notices. (And, it's just a bit gauche to point out the hidden stuff on your own blog).

    Trust me.

    We do, and we love you for it. (Puppies in Glass Houses shouldn't throw stones).

    96:

    "They are an ancient and proud people, Minister, and there are very few of them left. May I ask you one more time? Please? Let him live. He might be--" --Balveda in Consider Phlebas, Chapter 1 Paragraph 25.

    97:

    Actually, I usually use Chrome, because t's easier, but I still have an ancient version of IE as well as Firefox - it's called: "Horse for Courses"

    98:

    A gear-grinder that doesn't seem to have been specifically covered yet: when the matter of alien pathogens and the like is raised, but is said not to be a problem on the grounds of $biochemical_handwave - usually though not always something to do with either different stereochemistry, or some "silicon-based lifeforms can't feed on carbon-based ones" analogue. Er, no. Even on Earth we can see that for any possible chemical entropy gradient there is some microbe that is able to exploit it - regardless of whether the reactants concerned have anything at all to do with anything else in its metabolism... it may not even be a chemical gradient at all; might be a thermal one, or gamma rays. Bring a silicon-based lifeform to Earth and it would start to be eaten by some bug which is ubiquitous but unnoticed by us because it only eats rocks; take an Earth lifeform on the reverse journey and the equivalent thing happens.

    99:

    Err .. Aldiss: Heliconia?

    100:

    Ohh. Fun GAME!

    Find host's earliest works, then re-examine it and spot the hidden references that don't hit all these tropes. (Ohh, this is good - trust me, it passes all the trope tests. I wouldn't suggest it otherwise)

    ~

    Anyhow, in the spirit of the piece:

    • Don't imagine that your readers aren't all obsessively brilliant people who will spend their lives fine-combing this stuff.

    • Thus littering the entire place with :cheese: and :crumbs: and :squirrel: trails is 100% sensible

    • Assume the opposite (Rowling - Snape etc) and just feed their beasts.

    On the SF front:

    • It's the future: never trust a straight story: they've grown up on this format, so Sherlock is the default thinking. The only shocking trope is the actual straight story for them (!)
    101:

    IIRC "Use of Weapons" was the first culture novel as written, but "Consider Phlebas" was published first? Someone correct me if mistaken/forgotten, please?

    And, even more hidden is the implication that the genocide by Culture Minds was deliberate. You sure about that? I think you are seeing something that isn't there ... (maybe) also #95 I think you've jumped the shark, there. i.e. Wrong ... But, I suspect you want to see that, so you manufacture it .... (maybe)

    102:

    H Beam Piper "Omniligual" Humans discover abandoned/dead civilisation on remote planet. Inscriptions, books, hard tablets, etc - how to read? Until someone realises they have a Periodic Table in front of them .... And that start is enough to "break the code"

    103:

    Ergative is not the same as accusative. Very briefly, consider:

    (A) The boys broke (B) the window. (C) The window broke.

    In a nominative-accusative language (like Russian), A and C are in the same case, B is in another. (English is like this with pronouns.)

    In an ergative-absolutive language (like Basque), A is in one case, B and C are in another.

    104:

    Thanks, makes sense!

    105:

    Slavery, torture, war, genocide, poverty, settler-colonialism, empire, aristocracy, dominance -- oh my! Is it possible to hold a space opera reader's attention without easily recognizable grotesqueries drawn from history?

    Maybe not. Stanisław Lem is the only name that immediately comes to mind. I certainly enjoyed him. But I think that stories of Necessary Heroic Space Violence in the service of Good Space Hierarchy dominating Bad Space Hierarchy have been much more numerous and popular.

    P.G. Wodehouse wrote engaging and delightful fiction that didn't rely on violence/domination/possession as the narrative drivers*. I don't think he ever wrote a space opera, though. It's hard to do a comedy of minutiae and introduce an alien and/or far-future setting at the same time. Even my adored Iain M. Banks always wrote books mostly about the Culture's Necessary Heroic Space Violence, with only bits of ordinary life woven in.

    *Not directly, anyway. There is of course an implied multitude of cooks, maids, miners, craftsmen, farmers, imperial subjects, etc. required to enable a tiny fraction to live like Bertie Wooster. Writing this, I'm reminded also of Jo Walton's Just City series, and the philosophers' neglected servants whose significance is initially ignored.

    106:

    None of the above.

    Use of Weapons was never a Culture specific novel until later that Z got uplifted by SC to fight their wars.

    Consider Phlebas really was the first published.

    Unless you consider State of the Art.

    Which wasn't published beforehand, but might have been read beforehand (thus the much more noire / cyberpunk tone).

    ~

    Greg: at this point, you've hit our golden *trope:

    [ EDITED BY MODERATOR - Let's not get personal/rude here, m'kay? Rest of comment left intact because it's a contribution to the discourse. ]

    107:

    In my case that would be a really intelligent pigeon rather than a cat - I can "read" pigeon (it's mostly visual; hearing the coos is optional; they add emphasis but you can pretty much fill them in yourself) and also write it (in words; "speaking" it presents insuperable anatomical difficulties) pretty fluently. When it comes to representing a conversation with a really intelligent pigeon, it certainly involves some written pigeon, but in a manner analogous to "Jamila looked at Henry over the top of her spectacles" and the like. The actual interchange of ideas is represented as if the pigeon was speaking English, and it is not clearly stated whether she actually is, or is using standard pigeon with an extended vocabulary, or is using telepathy, or some combination of those.

    I agree entirely about your Piraha example. In the real world I'm not sure how far I accept the kind of theories about language that it works on, but I'm happy to assume they're solid for the purposes of the story. Things are somewhat similar with the matter of humans and aliens learning to communicate: while the details of the process don't need to be set down, the slow growth of understanding - and the accompanying subtle misunderstandings - could form a useful thread of the plot.

    108:

    Yup. Planetary days and alien sleep cycles are always coincident with human; the humans will always arrive on-planet in a suitable time-zone, and never suffer "jet-lag"...

    109:

    *AWWW SNAP BAE - playing the fiddle and The Beverly Hillbillies tune right now.

    Bae Know Your Meme

    ~

    Add to stack:

    • Aliens not using memes / their own cultural ticks. (Kinda done with Alien Nation, that whole curdled milk thing, but never really done)

    • Aliens never just flat out taking the piss

    • Aliens never having benign inter-racial jokes. i.e. Non Strata Class / ultimate death things, just... you know. "Yeah, we red stripes take the piss out of the blue stripes, but the real fight was a thousand years ago".

    110:

    Stross: Enjoyed both linked articles and am new to the site, which is going to take up my next few weeks. Thanks for the reply.

    111:

    Yes - it is one of those things where "go hard over the other way" can be an option: make the whole plot all about it. That could be great. In the current context, though, I'm not sure how much room it'd leave for the space operatics (note that I haven't read the book you cited, so I could be going sideways here...)

    112:

    Aliens sleep, and don't think it at all weird that humans have to spend a third of their lives dormant.

    113:

    Well done Charlie. You've now ruined a genre for me.

    This means you're going to have to write the book, maybe a trilogy.

    It's a shame you have to do something new. I have a feeling that the full-length novel of Palimpsest may never be written now.

    114:

    You can use them for running wire, and they're pleasant pets.

    115:

    Corollary: Aliens require bedrooms, and are accustomed to providing same for travelers.

    116:

    To be fair, we've heard of Ponzi schemes on this planet, but that doesn't stop people falling for them, even en masse and at high governmental levels.

    117:

    And btw the next time you see Hannu, he owes you a pint He made my buy on release list And while he has written the most modern take on SF, he hasn't been well rewarded by the Hugo's et al

    118:

    Eyes: Two, side by side.

    Most aliens tend to follow that trope, and even when the author throws in some other physical design for a spot of colour, the cognition still tends to be human. Eyes are our primary sense, and using/servicing them determines much of how we think.

    Life : Finite

    Most aliens die, rather than say reengineering their biology and budding off offspring with full memory/skills in a hive collective.

    War : Acquisition of resources / land

    If you can do the space opera thing, then there's plenty of resources to pluck unopposed, and plenty of land, if you want it. About the only valuable thing is sentient intelligence (though even that's questionable) and thus war is much more about memes, getting others to do your bidding, and control. And for that you don't need lasers, you need psychologists and marketeers. Pirates as marketing exec - admittedly not a massive leap.

    119:

    Ah yes. Thanks for the reminder.

    120:

    Oh I agree. I learned from my pet pigeon years ago about how important body language is, and I can still speak pigeon reasonably well, although it annoys the local feral birds no end. The only reason to use a cat as an example is because rather more people have cats than have pigeons, sad to say. Even though cats don't do body language to quite the same degree, I suspect rather more people here have had conversations with their cats.

    The big thing about chromatophores is that I thought it was going to be hard to write, and it turned out to be easy, at least for me. Perhaps I'm wired weird, but translating body language into text by intermixing symbolism with intent worked out very easily.

    121:

    f you can do the space opera thing, then there's plenty of resources to pluck unopposed, and plenty of land,

    Or not. What don't they have? What magic wand haven't they been able to invent? Their population will increase until it hits some limit; what was that limit? Are they just hitting it, or did they hit it long ago?

    122:

    Humans are descended from colonists from another planet who just coincidentally had gene sequences closely similar to those of earth animals.

    or

    . . . All primates are descended . . . (Larry Niven used that one in Protector.)

    123:

    By the way, question for the engineers in the audience:

    How do you use a laser in a ship-to-ship space battle?

    Basically, you're in a bullet that's shooting a laser at another bullet.

    Assuming you're at relatively close ranges, your target covers a large distance in a small time. Assuming at least part of your laser is pivoting on a mount to track the enemy, don't you get to a point where either it physically can't spin fast enough, or requires a huge motor that torques the ship in an attempt to track the target?

    At long distances, even a slight misalignment will throw off the laser. Is there a point at which you can't get your stepper motor or whatever to move precisely enough to keep a beam on your smallish target, many astronomical units away?

    And of course, you need to build your laser so that it handle both incredible precision and incredible speed readily. Is this even possible?

    I'm thinking about laser duels where on one hand, someone's "shooting across the system" (or shooting between stars, as with Robert Forward's laser sail--that's a hell of an aiming job) and on the other, the dueling starships flashing past each other motif. It's all shiny lazer tech and stuff, I know, but I wondered if there are theoretical limits that would keep you from using laser cannons on your ship of the wall thingie.

    124:

    Toyotacorollary: aliens are accustomed to providing acommodation for human travellers even if they don't sleep, don't use bedrooms, or don't even use acommodation in any human sense at all. As well as the slightly strange but comfortable bed there are washing facilities, and also a toilet if the story is not about those strange mutant humans with no arses. The aliens also provide food, which is perfectly adapted to human nutritional requirements; it is either (a) delicious, (b) bland and porridge-like, or (c) unbearably vile even to look at. The room also has a device which functions essentially like Google with properly-working DWIM and no spam results, and isn't too hard to figure out how to use; rather than simply not displaying certain of its results, it says BLOCKED when you try to access them (and possibly also sets off alarms), and from the pattern of what's blocked and what isn't the humans get to figure out a Clue.

    125:

    As well as the slightly strange but comfortable bed there are washing facilities, and also a toilet if the story is not about those strange mutant humans with no arses.

    The Twin Chorons, an alien bar, with three doors labelled "Oozers", Squirters" and "Emitters". He decided he could hold it until he got back to the ship.

    From Illegal Aliens by Nick Pollotta and Phil Foglio.

    126:

    There exist aeroplanes fitted with weapon-grade lasers. All the targeting and beam steering is automatic. The laser itself does not move, but a mirror mounted in the nose does. I don't know whether torque reaction is a problem or not but if it is it can always be countered by a gyro or something.

    At spacey ranges a laser is not much use because even with a "perfect" laser, diffraction imposes a certain minimum divergence on the beam. Without checking figures this results in a laser shone at the moon diverging to cover something like the area of Wales when it gets there, and you need a distinctly non-trivial laser even to get a return from the corner cube reflectors Apollo left there.

    127:

    I think you're out of the country of hidden subtext, over the border and into head canon territory, there.

    128:

    Better question: how plausible are ship-to-ship battles?

    Unless they're following the same course at nearly the same time (and were presumably on the same side up until liftoff), such "contact" as ships make is likely to be a matter of passing each other at Mach 100,000 or so.

    129:

    Well yes, that is a perfectly valid point, as is beam divergence.

    130:

    A random meeting engagement in the depths of space are even less likely than similar on Earth's oceans, partly for just that reason, but mostly because the effects of orbital motion. Even if the opposing ships are heading for each others' point of departure at the same time at the same speed and acceleration, even the most hyperbolic orbits won't coincide, if we're talking interplanetary scale. Maybe even at interstellar scales at STL speeds, I'll have to work some numbers after I get out of the bath.

    Instead, like pre-modern naval battles, they'd have to take place near the points of interest, e.g. planets, moons, asteroids that aren't loose conglomerations of dust, rubble and ice, etc. where, presumably, the opposing spacecraft would have to slow down to mere single-figure km per second relative in order to have any effect, e.g. hover or orbit menacingly over the facility in order to demonstrate their dominance of local space prior to landing a peacekeeping force. Or pick an approach speed which puts them at an advantage over their opponent, whatever that might be.

    131:

    Charlie, I worry that if you avoid all the cliches, it won't be space opera anymore. Heck, apply enough of your things to avoid and you can't even have far-future humans in space.

    How about a minimum set of cliches that should be present?

    132:

    Would you consider "The Expanse" a space opera? How about "The Prefect" by Alastair Reynolds?

    133:

    Everyone has the same conceptions of personal space and what socialising is. The only time a person is forced to be by themselves is as punishment, and the only time they volunteer to be by themselves is to activate wise hermit mode/be morose and introspective.

    Aloneness/not aloneness as a good or a mark of social status isn't a thing

    134:

    I'm not sure those are space opera clichés, so much as as present-day social clichés.

    135:

    One cliche is exponential growth into space, stopped only by running into other expanding empires.

    Thing is, in nature, there's often a death term in nature. What if interstellar flight is possible, but long-term sustainable civilization is not? After some point, all the useful boron has been fused, the gold's not just in the sea-water but in the wrecks of mining bots around the system, all the petrochemicals have either been burned or made into plastic, and so forth. Entropy has had its way, and there's not enough useful stuff left to keep civilization going in a system. It doesn't necessarily die entirely, but you don't want to try to get your ship reprovisioned at a post-civilized planet either. It's going to take tens to hundreds of millions of years for that planet to become useful again.

    Just adding a mortality term to the advance of interstellar civilization makes things a lot more interesting, as I noted above in comment #2. In such a universe, colonization becomes imperative, and wars over high quality planets are not only possible but inevitable (since daughter colonies of a mother culture will become competitors for future colonies of their own). It doesn't even require evil, either, just thoughtless, exponential growth, compassion that tries to save as many people as possible, and leaving those who can live within limits marooned on the used-up, post-civilized planets that are "backward" of your cone of progress, rather than settling for a single planet.

    136:

    Attack Vector: Tactical is the hardest science fiction space combat game I know of, and includes several "Science Behind the Rules" sections.

    The one on lasers assumes that with about ten times better lasers than we have today, you can put signficant amounts of energy onto a square metre spot at ranges up to 1600 km or so before the beam starts to diverge. And it's microsecond pulses, not a slow burn through, so you don't need to track and hold.

    137:

    Everything operates at the same timescales we do.

    Everything operates at the same length/distance/mass/velocity/energy scales we do. ...well, biological stuff does. ...biological can be easily defined. ...carbon and water obviously, duh?

    138:

    I had real trouble with this trope in Robinson's 2312--I still have a sneaking suspicion that the solar space-going economy is somehow ultimately dependent on the agricultural surplus of the Lowly Terran Peasant, despite the heavy-duty Handwavium of Robinson's standard And Then A Miracle Occurs economy.

    And so the Generous Spacers unleash predators that nobody is prepared for back on Earth ('surprise, aren't we wonderful?') and graciously ram new habitats down the lowly natives' throat. Sadly, the natives have the gall to be less than grateful...

    139:

    Regarding languages, just because I think this will make sense to some people here: two languages in which I have had formal courses are Spanish and Japanese. I once told my Japanese instructor that Japanese grammar was like Spanish in reverse Polish notation. He had a science background and thought it was very funny.

    I was mostly thinking of Postpositions vs. prepositions, and the order of modifiers and the things they modify, as well as the ordering of the verbs vs. other parts of the sentence.

    140:

    t'article: "It is profitable to ship crude break-bulk cargo like timber or foodstuffs between star systems because starships are cheap and easy to repair and operate"

    OTOH, it's kind of insane that we ship saw-logs from, for example, North America to saw-mills in China, then ship lumber back to hardware stores in North America... and not only is it cheaper than using local mills, several layers of people make a profit from that.

    "Planets rotate east-to-west"

    Uh, no.

    (#10) Neil W, "sex [...] in micro-gravity [...] Because you just float and don't push away from your partner(s) or start to spin..."

    Always puzzled me why people think they are being clever remembering Newtonian mechanics when talking about zero-g sex... but then ignoring the size of the force. If you can push your partner away, they can stop themselves being pushed away with exactly the same force. I mean, exactly how powerful do you think your dick is?

    "And the various effects of micro gravity on your body won't act to lower your libido."

    Yeah, it'd be as bad as trying to have sex while laying down.

    Another classic "sounds clever" myth...

    (#65) Nicholas Daley, "Humanity could survive first contact with a more technologically advanced species without the culture shock and negative effects that colonised people have experienced in Earth history."

    Most cultures didn't experience "culture shock and negative effects" from merely having first contact with a more advanced species. They experienced negative effects from being freakin' invaded and colonised.

    (#17) Heteromeles, "(Democracy wouldn't make sense if 90% of the population were non-sapient worker drones.)"

    In a way, only democracy would make sense. Provided there are signal markers that influence the behaviour of other workers. Hives are not hierarchical, the "Queen" isn't a...

    Oh, Space Opera trope:

    • The "Queen" of an alien hive species is just like an oligarchic ruler.
    141:

    Are you deliberately trying to be as offensive & "not-even-wrong" as possible? If so, "nice" try. For certain values of .... But even I am not senile or stupid enough to rise to your petty, childish & spiteful insults.

    I suggest you need to switch host body - permanently.

    142:

    [ DELETED BY MODERATOR -- Greg, you're going a bit too far. ]

    143:

    I really couldn't figure out what Robinson was trying to do with 2312. The whole book seems to be an exercise in writing the most unsympathetic morally-good character ever.

    144:

    Sleep: Except that, as far as we can see, all vertebrates do it? Do other non-chordate animal species sleep? Not such a "worng" trope, perhaps.

    145:

    People will always live on planets. They're only in space to go from one gravity well to the next.

    Speciation will not happen when people move to a new environment.

    OT. Eric Lerner from Lppfusion(.com) talked about the current state of their fusion research last friday on the spaceshow. Interesting and educational.

    p-B11 Fusion

    146:

    Wasn't that actually the terminally-boring "Thomas Covenant" ??

    147:

    Last couple of days I have been rewatching Double Zeta Gundam - it is very good fun space opera anime, although not as good as Legends of Galactic Heroes, Gundams are much more approachable and fun.

    Although not in written form, my biggest annoyance is the way microgravity appear and disappear constantly as the animators wish inside the ship which does not rotate and Gundam universe does not have artificial gravity tech. Other is the instant mecha to mecha comms, even between enemies...

    Gravity inside ships is not well handled in many space opera, usually artificial gravity is assumed. Some books use this as good plot points.

    148:

    Most people are not interested on new things but old and comfortable things that make them warm and happy. I love Hannu's books but they take some effort to take in if you are not adventurous. The Quantum Thief will probably remain one of mynall time favourites.

    149:

    Exponential growth doesn't require empire building. Each time a colony is built up to the point where it can send out colonies of it's own, all it requires is an inevitable percentage of "people" that want to migrate to "greener" pastures, and the persistence of knowledge of the know how to do it. While some sapient cultures in a randomly generated galaxy will choose to stay at home, inevitably some will want to expand. And while some will want to leave alone alien sapients they encounter, inevitably some of them will want to eat them or use them to build pyramids or something--unless life or sapience is very rare. In which case expansion will be inevitable until the galaxy is full. A few light years is no big deal. A few million light years is no go.
    And while boron may be the simplest way to do fusion and the first done, surely on future-historical time scales direct hydrogen-hydrogen fusion engines will become common. Cultures will tend to migrate to the most common types of materials. That's why we insulate wiring with polymers synthesized from oil rather than using gutta-percha or natural rubber.

    150:

    Finally a reason to sign up here!

    Under "Aliens" I would add:

    • There are lots of alien species, but humanity is exceptional.
    • ... We're exceptionally good at something.
    • ... It's aggression.
    • ... It's some cultural trait from idealised 20th century American mainstream culture (e.g. entrepreneurship).
    • ... We're exceptionally dangerous for some reason.
    • ... It's aggression.
    • ... We lack the telepathy organ.

    Also seems like the "Space Travel" section can get some useful subheadings:

    • Space travel is basically just like being at sea.
    • ... You can pretend it's 2-dimensional.
    • ... Naval fleet maneuvers.
    • ... Blockades.
    • ... A sail on the horizon: is it pirates?
    • ... A ship needs a large crew who perform low-status work (plus a hierarchy of officers).
    • Space travel is basically just like a railroad network.
    • ... Regular, repeating schedules.
    • ... intercepted by bandits who lie in wait.
    • ... Network hubs with significant infrastructure built up around them.
    • ... A ship needs a small crew who perform high-status, technical work.

    Some of these are repeating Charlie's points in different terms; what I'm hoping to contribute here is really the mid-level headings, with the bottom level just being examples of how to apply them. There are probably other things space travel is "basically just like" as well.

    151:

    Let's define space opera then. Here's a try: "Fiction involving interstellar travel by story characters as part of the story (rather than merely as background)"
    This would exclude stories that occur only in one solar system, such as the earlier books of The Expanse, or The Prefect. It would also exclude Neptune's Brood. And all three of those are clearly space opera in character. I know it when I see it. But you can't just say "Fiction involving space travel..." because that would make The Martian and The Right Stuff space opera, which they aren't really. I think a whole space travelling or star travelling background culture is also a prerequisite. A culture in which space or star travel is commonplace, and the space or star travel of the characters is no big deal.

    152:

    I know, but I wondered if there are theoretical limits that would keep you from using laser cannons on your ship of the wall thingie.

    Short answer, yes. If you want to get into crunchy examination of technologies which don't technically exist yet, there's a classic discussion on the laser versus missile question over at Rocketpunk Manifesto: Battle of the Spherical War Cows: Purple v Green. It's worth a read if you're into that kind of thing (and many of us here are).

    153:

    I propose that Mind reading is forbidden for Minds because Minds have a built in and irrational love for biological humanoids that underpins the entire Culture. It's a consequence of how the very first Minds were originally created, an evolutional scheme that still isn't understood, so new Minds are just replicated from designs that are known to work, though embellished on the outside. Minds that read minds risk having that core corrupted. But Consider Phlebas is not about genocide so much as it is about simple extinction. The extinction of the crew of the Clear Air Turbulence (Banks spent a paragraph telling about each of the 20 or so characters then killed them various ways--why?)the extinction of the Eaters (richly deserved), the extinction of the original inhabitants of Scharr's World, and yes the extinction of the Changers. The Changers were rare at the beginning of the Culture-Idiran war, the Culture was not ill disposed to them, and their asteroid was in Idiran space. All we know is they were wiped out as a species during the final stages of the war. And the Idirans were not. The Idirans probably wiped them out. There's even a Mind out there somewhere named Bora Horza Gorbochul. At least the Culture mourns.

    154:

    Actually, now I think about it, wasn't the Apollo 13 problem caused by a malfunction in some part of the service module's fluid infra?

    I just wanted to pick up on Apollo 13 because it illustrates some of the massive complexity involved in building a real working spacecraft, as opposed to a Space Opera starship (based on various sources)...

    Problem 1: The structure containing the service module's Oxygen Tank 2 was partially dropped during assembly – denting an outflow pipe that was only used when draining the tank after a pre-launch test (i.e., a pipe that was not used when in flight).

    The fault was discovered during pre-launch test – they couldn’t drain the tank because the drainage pipe was dented

    Solution (we are still on the ground here!): increase the heat in the tank to drive the oxygen off through the normal plumbing.

    Problem 2: Due to a miscommunication between subcontractors, the heater and thermostat in the oxygen tank had been rated at 28 DC Volts rather than the 65V used on the rest of the spacecraft. When they were turned on, the thermostat melted itself shut, in the ‘on’ position. The tank reached approx. 540 °C, melting the Teflon insulation on the wiring of the tank’s stirring fan.

    Problem 3: The temperature gauge on the tank was only calibrated up to the notional temperature the tank should have reached. It didn’t show that the tank was in fact significantly hotter.

    Okay, finally we have launched.

    56 hours into the flight, Oxygen Tank 2 is given a scheduled stir by the internal fan. Whose insulation has melted. Cue spark, fire and massive explosion. The mechanical shock also caused a failure in the plumbing of Oxygen Tank 1.

    Let’s hope the designers and manufacturers of FTL starships don’t have these problems!!!!

    155:

    Thinking about this some more, some other cliches:

  • Ships that easily accelerate to near-lightspeed happens, time dilation happens, interest on money in bank accounts happens, yet people who work on these ships are still poor. No-one seems to start a modest saving account then return in 200 years after a trade run and retire. The only time I have seen this one explained was in the April fool's episode of Red Dwarf, where Lister controlled 80% of the money in the world after leaving a few pence in a savings account.

  • Some manner of anti-senescence technology was created in around the year 2400, but is never perfected and fails at just the wrong moment. Or... Only the very rich can afford it, and the peasants don't rebel. Or... Everyone is immortal, families continue to have 2.4 children, and the expansion of humanity perfectly matches the creation of new colony worlds. Overpopulation never destroys worlds or leads to war.

  • 156:

    You don't use a laser in a space battle. You use milligram mass plasma toroids internally stabilized using magnetic fields, and accelerated to about 10%+ light speed. Let's, for the sake of argument, call them "plasma torpedoes". Each one packs about 1GJ of energy

    157:

    When it comes to space opera the ones I no longer read are ones with conflict based story lines. I much prefer an amazing puzzle to be solved by people/things that are not morons and who work cooperatively.

    158:

    How do you use a laser in a ship-to-ship space battle?

    That's actually an easy one to answer, thanks to lasers as weapons being an actual Thing that a fuckton of research dollars have been spent on over the past few decades (and which are actually being bolted to USN warships for sea trials as I write).

    The laser itself is bulky, but you just mount it inside your ship's hull and point its emitter at a mirror -- — that's what you need to aim, not the entire weapons system, and it's comparatively small and light. Also? Aiming mirrors very precisely at a tiny target a very long way away is something our astronomers have a lot of practical expertise at -- enough that the SDI proposal to use lasers in orbit to zap ICBM warheads the size of dustbins at a range of ~10,000km wasn't intrinsically impossible. (Just ridiculously expensive to implement on the scale needed, using hardware in orbit.)

    The real problems with laser weapons are (a) at significant ranges the target will presumably be taking evasive action and even a meter/sec of lateral motion is enough to smear the beam over too much of the target's surface to do much more than burn out sensors and cause some transient warming (b) beam spread, and (c) most importantly of all, lasers are not 100% efficient. For every joule you deposit on the target, you need to dump about four joules of waste heat -- which is difficult, in space.

    The US Navy gets a get-out-of-jail-free card for the waste heat problem with point-defense lasers for warships because they're sitting in a special heat sink called "the ocean". So contemporary naval lasers just have to carry big-ass heat pumps/refrigeration coils.

    It's considerably harder to build a ground-mobile laser (air cooled), and much harder to build a high-powered airborn laser weapon, which is why the F-35 laser program is going to have some interesting constraints to beat. As for space-based, that's the big prize ... but in an environment that provides for solely radiative cooling (and that comes at a weight penalty).

    159:

    Ah. You've seen Galaxy Quest, right?

    There is a very very special deleted scene in GQ where Dr Lazarus is shown his quarters: start at 2m20s and keep watching for at least a minute! The bathroom still brings tears of pain to my eyes.

    160:

    You don't fight a laser battle across many AU, unless your target is on a fixed trajectory and isn't going to dodge. It isn't about how well you can aim, its about lightspeed lag. I suspect that once you get into light second ranges (and an AU is 500 light seconds) you're not going to be hitting much.

    Using slow plasma toroids sounds like a less than great idea, because they'll have sharply limited ranges (you don't get to stabilise a plasmoid for long), their effectiveness also diminishes with range and they are far slower than lasers. On the bright side, they do provide scope for energy shields, and everyone likes those!

    161:

    How about a minimum set of cliches that should be present?

    Space opera doesn't have to be about cliches.

    Dave Langford and Brian Stableford took a stab at describing it in the gigantic monograph on space opera in the Encyclopedia of SF, but it lacks a coherent definition because it's not a tightly-defined form.

    I think that for a work of SF to qualify as space opera it requires certain features to be present. Breadth of scope is one of them: Interstellar scale is almost mandatory (although I think there are exceptions: "Tiger Tiger"/"The Stars my Destination", perhaps). A sense of wonder is necessary as well. The key factor is that it's almost invariably romanticist in sensibility, often overlapping with the gothic: if it lacks a romantic/gothic tone then it's probably not space opera.

    I wouldn't call "Ringworld" a space opera, even though it hits the high notes on scale/sense of wonder/adventure -- Niven's tone is all wrong -- but on the other hand, "The Quantum Thief" trilogy nails the target even though it's not strictly speaking interstellar and a metric shitload of it happens in upload/computing environments. (Jean le Flambeur is a classic space operatic anti-hero in the mold of Gully Foyle.)

    162:

    Oh, and re: languages, this may or may not be familiar to people here, but is probably relevant... http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/lingo.html

    The site has a number of other interesting little articles on various SF tropes, and has a charmingly 90s aesthetic.

    163:

    The laser itself is bulky, but you just mount it inside your ship's hull and point its emitter at a mirror

    But doesn't that point to the other reason lasers would be useless in a space battle: if you can aim it without melting your mirror, surely I can be shielded from it simply by having a shiny hull?

    164:

    Conventionally lasers are used defensively (because they are short range and quickly aimed) while guided missiles are used for attacking (because they are long range and can change course to track a moving target). Projectile weapons such as railguns and such are intermediate. The speed and volume of fire from them gives them a chance of getting through laser defenses, but projectiles can't change course and don't aim fast. So I'd put railguns on my "missiles" making them essentially AI driven fighters.

    The best space battle ever written was at the end of Westerfield's "Risen Empire" and the beginning of "Killing of Worlds".

    165:

    We know surprisingly little about the biological determinants of sleep, but aside from being a useful adaptation among mammals/reptiles -- it keeps organisms from expending useful energy during diurnal periods associated with increased predation or reduced feeding/reproductive opportunities -- it seems to be a requirement, at a very low level, for our neural architecture. There's some recent research suggesting that glial cells need a regular sleep cycle in order to get rid of molecular by-products of activity, and depriving a vertebrate of sleep indefinitely is damaging and ultimately fatal -- see fatal familial insomnia in humans.

    But I don't know of any reason why sleep would be a universal characteristic of sentient organisms. (I would guess that multicellularity is probably a mandatory pre-requisite for the evolution of a nervous system able to retain information about discrete previous states, but sleep? That's something else.)

    166:

    Another trope I dislike (and another dig at 2312 😉): The Tour of the Solar System, ie I've worked out how I'd colonise the entire place, now let me loosely hang a narrative off it that conveniently requires my protagonist to visit all of it. Space gentrification!

    167:
    But doesn't that point to the other reason lasers would be useless in a space battle: if you can aim it without melting your mirror, surely I can be shielded from it simply by having a shiny hull?

    A broad laser beam at the emitter is focussed to a spot at the target.

    Consider that you can focus sunlight to melt sand without melting the lens you are focussing it with.

    168:

    People will always live on planets. They're only in space to go from one gravity well to the next.

    Ahem.

    That's by no means a universal bad space opera cliche. And you know what else? The "humans living on a big-ass space station" setting is dangerously close to a cliche, at least when it's done badly.

    Space is a high-radiation fault-intolerant microgravity environment. It takes a paranoid degree of attention to life support integrity for humans to live there at all -- much like long-term life aboard a nuclear submarine, only with added happy fun medical conditions (detached retinas, bone mass loss, fluid retention, muscle wasting) due to microgravity.

    So the "tin wheel" model of space station probably isn't going to work very well, and the "spinning cylinder with big windows and mirrors" a la Gerard K. O'Neil has big engineering headaches (differential thermal expansion cycling is the big killer for his 1970s L5 colony designs, AIUI). We might get somewhere by digging holes in big-ass lumps of rock and putting our spinning hamster wheels inside them -- it certainly provides a barrier against thermal shock and high energy cosmic rays -- but massive lumps of rock are kind of hard to move to where you need them.

    169:

    Hm. Couple notes:

    • Money. If you know a good way to mediate exchange without money, I'm sure Nobel Prize committee will be very interested.
    • Money can take many forms, but the cliches you mentioned (bits of metal, pieces of paper or data in database) are there for reason. Bits of metal are hard assets. They have intrinsic value, no counterparty risk, they're easily divisible, fungible and anonymous. Bits of paper are also quite often anonymous and more practical than bits of metal, but they always have the risk of losing their value for one reason or another. They started out as warehouse receipts for those bits of metal and IOU documents. Bits in database can be most practical, but they're rarely anonymous and also carry counterparty risk. Pieces of paper can science-fictionally take many forms (crystalline coins is the traditional cliche, I believe?), but if you have a better idea for money, I'm again sure the Nobel Prize committee will be interested.

    As for colonial planets, I find single-government planets relatively plausible for several reasons:

    • It's a colony. It was started up by a single group of people, who probably didn't develop their own traditions, religions or culture in separate (see below). Unless you're dumping multiethnic detritus (ie. criminals, undesirables etc. from multiple polities) or are stupid enough to allow multiple different groups to colonize a single planet.
    • Modern communications. Unless you are building a real "back to nature" colony with hippies (who don't have faintest clue about misery involved), you'll have a reasonable tech base. Which includes planetary communications and (these days) planetary internet. This promotes cultural intercourse and counters cultural divergence along homogenizing planetary culture.Most importantly, it keeps people informed about politics and allows for more-or-less immediate political feedback.
    • Initial government. The Initial colonial government has a significant initial legitimacy advantage. Unless they fark up seriously, in long term and there is no possibility of even semi-peaceful transition (ie. can't vote the bastards out or even arrange a quiet little mostly-bloodless coup to replace the idiots with more reasonable people), nobody will bother with building up a parallel government. And even in this case, the end result will most likely be either idiots keeping their jobs or parallel government personnel either taking over old government and dissolving the revolutionary government or dissolving the old government.
    170:

    interest on money in bank accounts happens, yet people who work on these ships are still poor.

    I sort-of addressed this in "Neptune's Brood". TLDR is that the economic implications of slower-than-light interstellar travel, colonization, and trade are far weirder than most authors realize.

    171:

    use milligram mass plasma toroids internally stabilized using magnetic fields

    So the Wendelstein 7-X is a prototype anti-spaceship weapon?

    No, seriously, you got me at "internally stabilized using magnetic fields". That's some serious handwavium you've got going there!

    172:

    When ships meet in space - They will always share a common vertical orientation. - Which will have its up-down axis parallel to the rotation axis of any nearby planet. - This will coincide with the direction of the apparent gravitational field in the ships. - There is only one direction for gravitation throughout the whole ship. - Ships will always come to a relative stop at a distance sufficiently close they can cover a good portion of the human visual field to the naked eye. - This has to happen before any significant interaction between the ships can occur. - Ships will willingly and routinely slow down from interstellar / interplanetary / orbital velocities to do this. - Ship manoeuvering mostly involves yawing type motions, less commonly pitching, and almost never rolling. - Unless the ship is a single-seat fighter type craft when it will manoeuver as if flying in an atmosphere.

    When meeting aliens / visiting alien environments - Temperature is never a problem. Aliens all have their thermostats set to around 20degC inside their dwellings/vehicles, even if their usual planetary environment is arctic or tropical. - gravity, or any change thereof, is never a problem.
    Aliens always live in a gravitational field of at most 10N/kg, and even if they live on an obviously lighter weight planet, never have any difficulty adapting to "standard gravity". - Although there will be colonists specially adapted to higher gravity planets who will always take all the prizes on sports day. - Lighting is never a problem. All aliens light their interior spaces with something that approximates the spectrum of a G-type star. Even if the light levels are much lower than is usual for a human, this is not an indication of different physiology, but more to do with the moral character of the aliens. - All aliens apparently use something very similar to human retinopsins within their visual systems, and agree with human ideas about 'red', 'green' and 'blue' being the three primary colours and so forth. - Consequently aliens never have any problem reading human display screens or vice-versa. - Leaving aside atmospheric composition: all inhabited alien environments have an atmospheric pressure somewhere around 10kPa, and no one ever has to spend any time purging themselves of dissolved nitrogen (lest they get the bends) nor ever suffers from rapture of the deeps or needs to breath a special gaseous mixture to cope with the ambient pressure. - Corrolary: no one's voice ever sounds distorted due to changed atmospheric composition / modified speed of sound.

    173:

    Plasma toroid weapons are actually a plausible thing.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARAUDER

    174:

    Yes, you can have an anti-laser hull. Of course, the individually-aligned hull plates are going to have to be mirror-finished about as well as the James Webb Space Telescope, or the attacker will find some flaw and begin to burn through. Also, beware of dust. Also, this is going to play havoc with your ability to reject waste heat ...

    But frankly, the biggest cliche of all is ship-to-ship combat in space. I mean, combat, why?

    175:

    Yes. I can think of a better way to local stealth spaceships, destroy sensors and kill people EVA, using existing technology, and I don't see lasers being much use for anything else. Inter alia, a mirror surface provides a lot of protection, for a short time.

    176:

    Okay, now that I didn't know.

    I will note that toting the SHIVA STAR array around in your backpack as a power source doesn't make this sound terribly portable!

    177:

    I liked the way that you pointed out that our current systems wouldn't work - Cordwainer Smith's system assumed a centralised empire - but am doubtful it would work. What I really do agree with is your comment that any viable system is going to be truly weird to our eyes! Just as our system would look truly weird to someone from the 18th century or earlier.

    178:

    "No, seriously, you got me at "internally stabilized using magnetic fields". That's some serious handwavium you've got going there!"

    Not really. http://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/energy/nuclear/plasma-ring-experiment-offers-new-path-for-fusion-power

    "But University of Missouri researchers have managed to create rings of plasma that can hold their shape without the use of outside electromagnetic fields"

    Of course, if I could describe it perfectly and show it could exist, I would probably be building it and it would not be SF (or even a fusion project)

    179:
    a mirror surface provides a lot of protection, for a short time.

    It provides a very small amount of protection for as long as the top layer of the mirror does not ablate away.

    If the lasers involved only develop enough intensity at the target to melt it, then you can quite effectively defend against some small range of wavelengths (eg. near-infrared for the JWST example). Once you start using things that are out of that range (eg. a nice green) then its reflective ability will drop rapidly and it will soon absorb enough energy to fail.

    If the lasers involved are capable of rapidly vapourising material at the target rather than merely melting it, then even if you mirror is highly reflective of the specific laser wavelenths it will still fail very quickly.

    What you want from laser armour is something with a high vapourisation energy for its mass; shininess optional.

    180:

    Actually, I think that a compromise would be feasible, subject to the space station being constructed with access to ample nickel-iron and hydrogen/oxygen/nitrogen etc. I did the structural calculations for 14 psi hull/floor thickness, and they came out better than I expected. But it would be only marginally less movable than a damn great lump of rock.

    181:

    I have used carbon fibre matting to stop laser energy at around 1kW per sq cm continuous. It just glows white hot and re-radiates. The real weapon would have to be pulsed, and the real defense would be ablative armor. Ice, for example. Note that once the surface is ablated the resulting gas then becomes the absorber.

    182:

    1kW/cm^2 is barely worth getting out of bed for, if you're trying to blow stuff up. Might do for a laser thermal rocket, maybe?

    Ice might not be such a great choice for armour on its own, because if you've got a laser strong enough to vapourise it you'll probably get some cracking and spalling and bits of your armour that aren't being heated by the laser will still be damaged. Something more like pycrete might be better, but a nice big slab of carbon fibres is better still (albeit harder to produce) because it will absorb more energy before vapourising.

    183:

    Getting back to the original topic:

    The amount of power required to do almost anything will be totally ignored. From the gigawatts of power your shuttlecraft will need to just pop back up to orbit to the megajoules of energy stored in a handholdable weapon that can all be released in a microsecond, let alone the continual 1G your spacecraft develops between planets, everything will have compact, clean, safe and reliable batteries or reactors.

    Don't modern laptop batteries already have energy density comparable to a hand grenade? When the power module for your blaster says "don't insert the wrong way round or dispose of in a fire" you'd better believe it.

    184:

    Caution: Improper disposal of this energy clip may lead to charges as a war criminal, terrorist, or worse.

    185:

    The Fantasy Novelist's Exam

    By David J. Parker

    http://www.rinkworks.com/fnovel/

    PS i the only one, cried cause the first leckie ancillary novel was so good, then cried again cause the 2nd and 3rd were so bad ? esp the 3rd; almost exactly the trajectory of the dune series, butas befits the we re less attentive then our forefathers meme, leckie gets there in fewer pages

    186:

    doesn't D Brin note that a considerate species builds on plate margins, so that over millions of years, tectonics will remove all structures, leaving the planet fallow for the next species ?

    187:

    if u actually study biology, you find that most of the "rules" get broken - eg the recent discovery of millimeter bacteria i don't know if the cell surface area rule is that strict; after all, you could have a single giant cell in the form of a hollow cylinder, or bundle of hollow cylinders...tho with multiple transcription centers to avoid issues of diffuse of new protein, you start to stretch the def of cell (eg in neurons, there is an issue of diffusion of proteins down the axons)

    188:

    Well, these things are often a little more complicated that merely antisocial nose wiggles - I had to re-read the book to find what I was looking for.

    Short snippets to not make a huge derail:

    'whereas we don't have any Changers.' 'We do, but the one we have is on the other side of the galaxy on an urgent job not connected with the war; it would take half a year to get her there. Besides, she has never been to Schar's World; the tricky part about this problem is that Bora Horza Gobuchul has'

    It might have been nice for the Culture to look after 'their' Changer, especially as not part of the war. Something an enlightened Mind / Civilization might have considered worthwhile...

    But, the meta-narrative is that HBG is the one responsible for his species' end and the death of the female Changer he loved, thus the book is book-ended by the fantasy tale within it:

    The Jinmoti of Bozlen Two kill the hereditary ritual assassins of the new Yearking's immediate family by drowning them in the tears of the Continental Empathaur in its Sadness Season

    It's 30 years old, so taking apart the Male/Active - Female/Passive old crusty trope is of course in there:

    Sro Kierachell Zorant. She was what they called a dormant Changer, one who had no training in and no desire to practise Changing, and had accepted the post on Schar's World partly as a relief from the increasingly warlike atmosphere in the Changers' home asteroid of Heibohre....

    Horza was sent to Schar's World partly because he was being punished and partly for his own protection. A group of Changers had plotted to fire up the ancient asteroid's power-plants and take it out of Idiran space, make their home and their species neutral again in the war they could see was becoming inevitable. Horza had discovered the plot and killed two of the conspirators.

    ~

    In meta-meta-news, Empathaur is a twitter troll / anti-feminist / 'ironic' racist. No link, obviously - but that I kinda suspected this irony before a quick search hit it does say something about the cultural impact of SF.

    I'm either horribly amused by this or horrifically unsurprised, or both at the same time.

    ~

    Leading to another one:

    • All Space Operas are actually tragedies / love stories
    189:

    Heteromeles has a pretty good knowledge of biology. Millimeter bacteria only bend the rules, and then not much. Much better examples are the Myxogastria and Labyrinthulomycetes, though it is hard to see how they could develop intelligence. And, of course, the largest single cell is an unfertilised ostrich egg :-) However, the lower limit is pretty fundamental (though loose).

    190:

    I'd also suggest xenophyophores. Syringammina can get quite large, and has an interesting and complex structure. Probably not much scope for intelligence there, either; they don't really live in a niche that would benefit from an excess of brains.

    191:

    Why? Spectacle: the energies and speeds involved provide the author with lots of opportunity to unlimber his thesaurus and project his lambent, corruscating prose on the unsuspecting reader.

    Also, jeopardy. It's an easy and obvious way to put the protagonist(s) in danger, for that vicarious thrill that make readers want to read the author's books.

    Also, also, write a good, well-researched space battle and you'll be brought up in discussions like this for years to come, which is good exposure for the brand.

    As for in-fiction reasons, sooner or later, group A is going to want to move something through space that group B doesn't want moved through space, so they'll try to stop it. When diplomacy and politics doesn't do it, main force will seem expedient to someone.

    192:

    People will always live on planets. They're only in space to go from one gravity well to the next. I know others have remarked on this but .... "Orbitals" as in Culture, & Ringworld, of course. Dyson Spheres - what they?

    193:

    Correct, but you must remember that HB is just trolling .... ( for effect )

    194:

    Ahh, missed this bit:

    Note that once the surface is ablated the resulting gas then becomes the absorber.

    The cloud of gas is necessarily less effective than the solid that produced it, on account of being less dense/taking up more volume: there'll be less stuff in the way of the beam, and when the beam heats it up it'll get out of the way faster.

    In a vacuum the cloud of hot stuff will expand very rapidly indeed, to the point where it will only actually offer meaningful protection for a very short period of time (say in the half-millisecond between laser pulses). In an atmosphere it'll hang around a bit longer, though breezes/convection/shockwaves would thin it out and of course if you are moving you'll leave it behind. In a confined space though (yay, boarding actions!) the combination of nice carbon armour and a thick cloud of sooty smoke would probably render most lasers a bit useless.

    You could try and trap the gas cloud and make better use of it. If you could generate and electromagnetically confine a layer of sufficiently dense, cold plasma between you and the shooter you could maybe use it as an energy shield (which glows in pretty colours!), potentially opaque to all sorts of EM radiation (not x-rays and other short wavelengths). It'd be very hard to engineer such a thing, but not not impossible. Wouldn't help against projectiles, of course.

    195:

    You have missed the point. If a mirror reflects x% of the radiation, then the laser has to be 100/(100-x) times as powerful as the level needed to destroy the material if it were not reflective. Holding a laser on a location isn't likely to be feasible, so we are talking near-instantaneous effects, and probably using pulsed lasers.

    196:

    On a low note, in "Star Drek" Captain Jerk hands off command of the Booby Prize to Mr. Schlock so he can run off with a bleach blond in a red convertible on the planet Schwartz. How can he think there's much chance they're mechanically compatible? She might have an unusual PH even if tab "A" fits slot "B". Her species might even collect a little something from their mate. Probably safer to write really alien aliens...

    197:
    • All planets have active plate tectonics
    • Planet-satellite size ratios similar to the Earth-Moon system are common
    • Introducing human gut bacteria into an existing alien biosphere never has any effect
    • Alien life has developed into the same major classifications as Earth life: reptiles, insects, fungi, etc.
    • The future banking system uses biometrics (retina scans, fingerprints) to verify identity, because of course those never change
    • Colonized planets never have annoying mild endemic diseases that travellers have to deal with
    • Tourist infrastructure consists of that one hotel catering to off-worlders, never a huge tacky psuedo-authentic district that the locals avoid unless they work there
    • Local businesses will always treat offworlders just like any other customers

  • 198:

    A few extras (unless others have mentioned them):

    • The Government of the galactic/terran/alien empire/federation/alliance will have a senate that can totally fit all the senators from a thousand worlds and not suffer from a) too many citizens per senator to be properly representative of b) too many senators for the hall to fit and to get any meaningful debate/policy done

    • There will be one human empire, one alien empire, one robot empire. None of these races will be disunited

    • When there isn't one empire per race there's a shiney multi-species cosmopolitan polity, regardless of if the mentalities and social structures of each race are mutually intelligible (let alone compatible)

    • Technology transfer between alien races will be very limited. Of course a primitive government couldn't just ask a tramp freighter captain to download the Wikipedia of the more advanced polity when he drops off his ore delivery. Because reasons.

    • Surgery is good enough to make any of the protagonists look, sound and respond to tests like an alien (never mind social training, they can read the wiki page for the alien whilst at warp). Said surgery will put them back to human by the end of the chapter/episode. Obviously there are no ramifications to such drastic mastery of the body.

    • Spacecraft will be referred to as ships and have captains, pilots, engineers and miscellaneous crew.

    200:

    If I recall correctly, Greg Bear was postulating cells that were entire organisms as the norm. As my cell biology friend pointed out when I told him about it, the lack of surface area on which to perform reactions makes that structure questionable at best. While there are large cells (the biggest ever being neurons in things like blue whales and sauropods, and algae like Caulerpa), almost all life runs on tiny cells. That especially includes all the bacteria that keep the biosphere going.

    The basic challenge is surface area to volume. Surface area scales as the square, volume scales as the cube, but a lot of enzymatic reactions, such as the ones that power both photosynthesis and respiration, take place on surfaces, which is why you see so much folded membrane in mitochondria and chloroplasts. If you go for huge cells, you've got to pack them with subcellular membranes, just to keep them functioning, because you're getting progressively more unfavorable ratios for the membrane that forms the surface of your cell.

    If you have macrocyte organisms rather than multicellular organisms (think a single cell acting as, say, the ecological equivalent of a raccoon), you also lose the ability to have cells specialize to make things like bones, muscles, or a multicellular immune system, so the macrocyte needs organelles to specialize for each of these tasks. It's also a bit harder for to deal with wounds in single large cells, as we know from trying to heal long neurons. IIRC, some sea slugs even attack macrocyte algae, suck their chloroplasts out, and rearrange them inside themselves so that they can photosynthesize. For whatever reason, nothing I know of does that with plants that have normal-sized cells.

    Finally, as a macrocyte it's a lot harder to deal with symbionts and endocellular parasites, since there are fewer internal barriers. Indeed, plants, with their plasmodesmata interconnecting cells, have a lot of problems with things like bacteria spreading through the plant and clogging the system. It is true that land plants and Caulerpa have independently come up with the similar large-scale structures (leaves, stems, stolons), one through interconnected multicellularity, the other through complexifying its cell development. However, AFAIK, land plants have massively more complex symbioses. These are intermediated, in some cases, by novel structures like root caps, domatia, and orchid mycorrhizomes. That may well be why they took over the land, while Caulerpa's line has (with the exception of Caulerpa taxifolia) remained relatively obscure.

    But you're right, this is all speculation.

    201:

    Greg, here are some megastructures for you to boggle at:

    Alderson disk (sort of like the LP record equivalent of a ringworld's tape loop -- much larger surface area)

    Dyson spheres (hollow shell around a star, or a constellation of orbiting free-flying solar collectors/habitats at various orbital inclinationsso numerous they capture all available solar output - much bigger than a ringworld or even an Alderson disk in terms of surface area)

    Matrioshka brain -- what happens when you make a Dyson sphere of free-flyers devoted to maximizing the computational capacity of a solar system by utilizing all available energy and mass for thinking -- typically relies on solar-powered computronium processor nodes.

    202:

    Scanning the comments... linguistics peeves, you say?

    • There is always one obvious correct way to say things in other languages. E.g., languages which distinguish between the familiar and formal "you", such as tu/vous in French, or /Usted in Spanish. Try to precisely define the boundary where you switch from one to the other...
    • The language as spoken on the planet always matches the language as taught in the textbook/memory chip
    • Knowledge of the standard form of the language means full understanding of all dialects
    • There is only one recognized standard form of the language
    • Slang never exists in other languages
    • Computer translation never requires any knowledge of social context
    • Body language is universal

    And some other stuff:

    • Oxygen-breathing is the default-- humans have the run of the space station, while aliens with other respiratory needs are stuck in the Weirdass Biology sector
    • Computers never run out of storage space
    • Flash-drive equivalents are always able to hold all your data in one unit
    • The Universal Internet always has the data you're looking for replicated locally
    • And it is never behind a paywall
    • The Universal Internet never has latency or capacity issues
    • Skin/hair/eye color modification is quick and easy, yet is somehow not subject to the whims of fashion
    • GPS-like navigation can happen any planet regardless of the nonpresence of artificial satellites, obstructions between you and the sky, etc.
    203:

    Problem 1: it must reflect x% of the specific wavelength of light delivered by the laser. You are not really going to make a super reflective armour material that works really well against, say, near-infrared and mid-visible light.

    Problem 2: the (100-x)% of energy that does get through must not be enough to destroy the reflectivity of the mirror. Rendering a mirror non-mirrorlike requires less effort than blasting through the mirror entirely. As soon as it loses a significant amount of its reflectivity, the armour becomes no more useful than its component materials.

    Problem 3: the operating environment of the armour must be such that the mirror remains highly reflective. This is fine if you stay in space all the time (you may still need to clean it, depending on where you are) but this will be a problem if you ever enter an atmosphere.

    (1) means anyone with two different lasers, or one laser than can be frequency-shifted can defeat your armour.

    (2) means that anyone with a sufficiently powerful laser can defeat your armour. This includes but is not limited to very high pulse power devices.

    (3) means you can't armour everything all the time.

    Compare an contrast with a nice layer of ablative carbon-carbon, which works against all laser types, doesn't require cleaning, remains effective until burned all the way through and can be used as a re-entry shield. There's a reason why 80s-era starwars systems considered ablative armouring on target ICBMs, but mirrored armouring was entirely ignored.

    Anyway, I fear this topic is becoming invasive, so perhaps it is best to move on.

    204:

    Nobody doing maintenance ever needs to consult a tech manual.

    And if they do, it's magically kept up to date... and entirely consistent across multiple generations of jury-rigging, kludged repairs, and deferred maintenance. And language barriers. And they're all free, so nobody economizes by letting their update subscriptions lapse.

    All of the tools in the known universe — even for ancient alien stuff — are metric and properly calibrated.

    All of the spare parts in the known universe — even for ancient alien stuff — are metric, properly calibrated... and easily and cheaply available without special order or a machine shop. And they all fit the first time, too, and work on the ancient alien stuff without any electrochemical or thermal incompatibilities.

    There is an infinite supply of clean uniforms and clothing available, all of which continue to look new all the time and none of which require any storage space or weight penalty. Conversely, nobody knows how to patch anything... because they never need to. Whether the laundry systems can magically remove stains from lubricants — let alone unknown alien ichor — is unknown (see the first sentence).

    Uniform designers still haven't heard of pockets.

    There are no decorative arts, and nobody does any craft or arts off duty as a way to relax. At most, there will be something resembling small-scale gambling; the illustration I've used is "there is no off-duty punk-equivalent band among the load toads," which is actually counter to every gunpowder-era military force in human history. Nobody decorates their lockers with anything other than a single sentimental photo of family/lust-objects.

    There are no food allergies. Not even to alien stuff. Unless, that is, it's almost instantly fatal.

    205:

    All alien species come in male and female. The female may be non-sentient (See Niven, who invented no less than FOUR alien species with a non-sentient female!)

    • All male aliens have a phallus.

    • All female aliens are valued for their beauty. -- Male humans may find them beautiful as well.

    • Alien offspring are grown inside the female's body, and fed from the female's body after birth. -- (Occasionally literally, if the offspring kills the mother and devours her at birth as a normal part of the species reproduction.)

    • The male's primary concern towards his offspring is towards the eldest male, designated his heir. This child will receive one on one tutoring on various subjects. This will nearly always include hand to hand combat. -- Female offspring are currency to buy marriage alliances. This is SpaceFantasyEurope.

    206:

    Back on topic again: atmospheric re-entry is easy. Its like landing a plane, maybe a bit bumpier.

    You don't have to worry about any of the following: - coming in too steep and burning up - having a damaged heat shield, and burning up - tumbling out of control and burning up - losing control authority (because no-one does ballistic re-entries) - covering up exhaust ports to prevent your engines being incinerated - retracting sensor booms to prevent them being incinerated - worry about loss of communication whilst you're in a plasma sheath

    Once you've safely re-entered (the "safe" is redundant, because nothing bad can happen, see above), you won't: - need to use drogue chutes or anything to slow down - need to replace your heat shield, which is entirely non-ablative and multi-use

    207:

    "Indeed, plants, with their plasmodesmata interconnecting cells, have a lot of problems with things like bacteria spreading through the plant and clogging the system."

    Not really, any more than animals do. They have mechanisms for restricting such growth that are at least partially effective, and even mechanisms for 'losing' viral infections during cell division. God alone knows how the latter works, but it is a sadly underresearched topic. I don't see that our sort of cell structure is essential, but I fully agree that an alien without it is NOT going to be a massive amoeba, and is going to have at least as much structure we do. Just perhaps not in cellular form.

    208:

    I agree about the Romanticism. It's worth remembering that the original Romantic movement was, to some degree, anti-science. It was the movement that brought us Frankenstein as a response to worries about where medicine was going, after all.

    That anti-science bias certainly shows, especially in things like Star Wars. Quantum Thief is another example of this, too. I got a lot happier about reading it when I started treating it as a Vancian fantasy, rather than hard SF.

    So yes, Star Wars is space opera, but neither The Martian nor Red/Green/Blue Mars are. While we could say that it's about the tone, it really is about whether they're pro-science or anti-science. Classic space opera comes down firmly on the anti-science side, at least in the cases I can think of.* After all, we're arguing about all space opera's stupid tropes here.

    While I agree that a sense of wonder is appropriate, it's typically about the stuff that's "beyond" science, whether it's alien artifacts that seem to prove the existence of (cough, cough) god, stuff that's beyond human comprehension, life beyond death, or the ultimate post-science destiny of sentient life. It's not the Mythbusters sense of wonder that some experiment actually worked for a change. Instead, it's a wonder that portrays science as inferior, while the human spirit emerges triumphant regardless of it all.

    *The interesting test case is Brin and Benford's Heart of the Comet, which was slanted as hard science when it was written, but which gets pretty operatic in places. Is it a space opera that's also pro-science, or is it hard SF but not space opera?

    209:

    Another question is, how operatic does space opera have to be? I know that was a sarcastic reference to it being a ripoff of "horse opera" westerns, but should good space opera rise to an operatic emotion pitch in the climax, or not?

    Also, does a space opera have to reach the emotional peak through violence? Or is it possible for there to be light space opera, the equivalent of The Barber of Seville?

    Finally, we can ask why these are popular now. Is there something going on in the world that makes people want to stop thinking and hope that they can conquer the future with emotional power alone?

    210:

    The C.A.O.S. Manifesto is indeed splendid. Arguable, poetically out-spoken, but splendid -- especially in how it nails the ideological assumptions underpinning the program proposed by the Mars colony proponents.

    211:

    Clothing: - everyone belonging to a specific culture will follow the same dress code. (haircuts don't vary either) - robes are popular with a huge number of species across time and space. - spacefaring folk will use robes if they're not into the whole skintight-jumpsuit thing. - if you are a wise and noble Elf In Spaaaaace, you aren't allowed to opt out of the robe requirement.

    212:

    I note that the whole "manifest destiny" riff that the space colony boosters play around with is immensely romanticist in outlook -- it's the same strain of perverted romanticism that drove Hitler's quest for lebensraum in the east, and, earlier, the conquistadors' bloody-handed rampage through the newly-opened Americas.

    So there's a spectrum in play here. You can do Mars colonization in the nuts'n'bolts engineering mode -- be in survival mode ("The Martian") or nation-building mode (KSR's Mars trilogy) -- but you can also do it in a romantic mode -- as in Jean le Flambeur's breaking of the Oubliette on Mars in "The Quantum Thief". It's all about tone, and striking heroic poses, and ideology.

    Flip side: the gothic novel can be viewed as a subset of -- or a reaction to -- the romantic, and is obsessed with decay and claustrophobia. It's what you get when the space colony ecosystem has crashed and the last shuttle has left -- as seen in the early part of "Schismatrix" by Bruce Sterling, or in "Absolution Space" by Alastair Reynolds (which rediscovered and rebooted Sterling's tropes a decade later).

    213:

    This is the first time I heard of space opera being fundamentally anti-science. I am not sure I agree, but if you are right, then "Heart of the Comet" is a space opera turned on its head -- with back-to-nature environmentalists being the villains.

    Now that I think of it, "Evil, or at least badly misguided, Greens" trope is quite common in modern SF, but usually takes place in present, or in near future. "Heart of the Comet", written in mid 80's and taking place in 2062 through 2137, just places this trope a bit farther in time, edging on space opera timeframe.

    214:

    IR to mid visible - yes, quite easily. Aluminium, silver, and gold mirrors work quite happily from about 400nm to at least 25µm*. You might not be able to manage a dielectric coating to cover this range - but then, space-ship sized sputtering machines don't come cheap either.

    The difficult bit is visible to X--ray - just about every material I know of that works as a mirror for the long-wavelength side absorbs shorter wavelengths. You can't even do diffractive optics across that range instead, there's just too many orders of magnitude(100µm at the far IR end up to about 0.1nm at the X-ray end, I cound 6 orders minimum if we're in hanwavium laser territory).

    No, if we're in handwavium territory, ablative armour is where it's at - afterall, one of the cliches is the reaction mass apparently not being a constraint, so why not use that?

    *The experiment I dismantled for lab space for my PhD used a 500W CO2 laser(λ=10.6µm) for dipole trapping: its mirrors were 3 inch deep cylinders of copper (as heatsink) with a 100nm layer of gold on the end surface for the mirror; each dissipated between 5-10W of heat absorbed from the laser beam. They also served for the 480nm excitation beam (very pretty blue). They also didn't last long - the high intensity beam guided dust particles onto the surface, and then burnt them on.

    215:

    earlier, the conquistadors' bloody-handed rampage through the newly-opened Americas

    The recent-ish scholarship I've brushed up against on that subject puts a lot of emphasis on how the principal conquistador figures were poorer than dirt in their antecedents, uneducated, and were using popular romantic stories to mediate their intensely short-term focus on getting rich. Since the romantic stories assumed a context that the conquistadors -- and various others -- were totally ignorant of, the results were unexpected.

    (Quick! is it better or worse to have dropped a frightful brick, or to have dropped a brick? And that context is quivering on the edge of living memory even still.)

    One of the things where I think space opera is very weak is that it presumes a cohesion of purpose that's never existed. It's nigh-certain that the folks sent off to build the stupendous works of mega-engineering will have objectives their imperial patrons don't.

    216:

    Always puzzled me why people think they are being clever remembering Newtonian mechanics when talking about zero-g sex.

    Well, because I'm not actually that clever, I'll note that people manage to injure themselves while engaged in sexual activities in a gravity field. Even held place by the force of one gravity one can find it somewhat tricky. I suspect that zero-gravity sex is likely to be a complex skill to learn. Rather like gravity sex, perhaps.

    As for the physiological changes due to zero-g, I'm thinking in particular of lowered blood pressure. I leave it to people cleverer than me to work out how that might effect sexual activities (especially those involving the penis).

    217:

    (See Niven, who invented no less than FOUR alien species with a non-sentient female!)

    I think you are exaggerating. Kzinti and Slavers had non-sentient females, yes. Grogs had non-sentient males. Puppeteers are an odd case: Both egg-producing and sperm-producing genders called themselves "male". What they called "female" was the host species devoured by the Puppeteer larva.

    So it is not that Puppeteers had non-sentient females -- all Puppeteers were sentient, but their word for "female" meant something very different.

    218:

    Another structure from the Romantic era that we haven't considered: secret societies. How often do space operas use the trope of the Illuminati, secret groups that are really running things?

    I've also been reading Hutton's Triumph of the Moon, which is an analysis of where Wicca came from. He points out that ceremonial magic kind of disappeared in the Enlightenment, swallowed by the proliferation of secret societies like the Freemasons and the (rumored) illuminati and Rosicrucians. Along about 1850, Eliphas Levi created the more modern idea of High Magic in France, and that was followed by the creation of the Golden Dawn in England around 1880. Much of what we think of as modern magic (and Wicca) come from Levi's high magic and the Golden Dawn synthesis.

    But a lot of it shows up in space opera too: look at the Jedi. Everyone thinks of them as Taoists, but real Taoists are neurohackers. Jedi are the Knights Templar with a sheep-dip of theosophy and Zen. In Star Trek, we've got the psychic powers of the Vulcans, in Star Gate we've got the evolved masters, in the Lens series we've got Arisians and Eddorians, and so forth.

    Indeed, scientists in space opera tend to get relegated to the role of pre-Enlightenment magicians, running around after grimoires (excuse me, new scientific knowledge) and selling their souls for Mad Science and power, and having to be rescued from their folly entirely too often.

    So that's another set of tropes we should explore: secret knowledge, secret societies, and the extent to which they control reality, for good and evil.

    219:

    He also invented Chirpsithra (non-sentient males). I don't see any problem with one sex being non-sentient, if the other cares for the young.

    220:

    I remember the Trinocs having a non-sentient female as well. And I do count the Puppeteers. First, because they CALL themselves male, whatever their gametes may say, and second, when there are 3 other species in a fictional universe that have non-sentient females, it's starting to look like a bad trend.

    221:

    I had plans -- abandoned due to complexity (and reasons related to business practicalities) -- for a third Freyaverse novel, working title "Probing Uranus", which was going to lightly riff off the plot complexity of The Marriage of Figaro. In other words: a screwball comedy of deception and masquerade, whereby a planet of [resurrected] humans in the Freyaverse pretend to be Aliens for the benefit of an arriving Cathedral of the Church of the Fragile, while the clergy aboard the Cathedral pretend to be ordinary robots, and an incoming trade ship full of con men robots pretend to be human beings in order to bilk the Aliens of whatever they've got. (Whackiness ensues as each faction falls down badly at behaving like the faction they're impersonating.)

    Not gonna get written. (Don't worry, I'll do something better instead -- when I come up with it.)

    222:

    You are STILL missing my point. If the laser has to operate only in very short pulses (as it almost certainly does), destroying the surface where it hits doesn't help, because you need a second hit on the same spot to get through. Think probabilities. And my understand is that aluminium (for example) reflects well from ultraviolet to the infrared - short ultraviolet being its weakest area - and that current X-ray lasers are only weakly coherent and gamma lasers are handwavium.

    223:

    But I'm afraid I obscured my main point by bringing up a popular author.

    Why are there male and female? Why does there have to be sex specialization?

    Exchange of genes, I believe, would be necessary for evolution to take place, but why does it have to take place between subtypes X and Y of species Z? What if species Z has all one type, and any two of them can exchange genes?

    And all the animals on their planet are one sex. That's how life evolved. What is special about two? It's just what worked here.

    224:

    Heh. Call those megastructures? I'll give you megastructures, the way only seriously-over-the-top anime can do megastructures.

    The giant vaguely-humanoid mecha "Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is 52.8 billion light years tall, according to the official guide book from GAINAX". That's a little over half the size of the observable Universe.

    It gets beaten up by a slightly larger Bad Guy mecha later in the story.

    225:

    I think it's a very telling authorial quirk.

    Come up with it once or twice in a wildly creative 30 year career? No problem.

    Come up with some variant of it four or five times ...? That begins to look like a kink, or at least a weird-ass cognitive failure mode.

    We don't have much data on raising sentient animals from scratch, and it's almost all based on humans, but children are really labour-intensive, educating them is no less so, and if one sex is non-sentient, congratulations: you just doubled the workload on the other sex.

    (Not to mention that traits are conserved across sexes within a given species; consider why male humans have nipples, for example. To lose the whole set of traits that lead to sentience in one sex but not the other would require some really wild-ass selection process -- such as deliberate selective breeding over a period of hundreds of generations, in a direction detrimental to species survival.)

    226:

    Actually, you could make a case for Earth being unusual. In general, stellar populations follow a power law with respect to mass. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initial_mass_function

    Short version, there are lot more red dwarf stars out there than G type main sequence stars like ours. The habitable zone for such stars is closer to the primary, where planets would probably be tidally locked, with one face in perpetual sunlight. Maybe the norm for habitable planets is a narrow circumpolar twilightzone, with no diurnal cycle. Which would make us rare and a bit weird.

    227:

    Not sure about the impossibility of mono-cultural and mono-governmental spacefaring civs. Humans used to have a vast number of cultures and languages in the past. In the neolithic probably every tribe had its distinct dialect /language and religion. Today some sort of capitalist society dominates everywhere, with an ever shrinking number of national languages with millions of speakers, similar laws, similar costumes, similar food, world religions etc.

    228:

    Your example shows that mirrors that can reflect over a wide range of wavelengths aren't really very good at doing so, because of the amount of light they absorb. Your mirrors needed (comparatively) huge heatsinks, even though they were reflecting laser light that hadn't been focussed to a destructive degree. I see commercial gold laser mirrors tolerating ~1500W/cm^2 of near-IR, but commercial metalcutting really wants intensities of over ten times that in order to be useful and military lasers will want higher intensities still. That mirror armour is toast. Backing it with a big copper heatsink will give everyone an excellent lesson about bremmstrahlung during the next solar flare.

    229:

    Oh yeah, and our weirdly large moon may tend to stabilise the Earth's axis of rotation. Although it's complicated.

    http://meetingorganizer.copernicus.org/EPSC2013/EPSC2013-37.pdf

    230:

    Today some sort of capitalist society dominates everywhere

    That's an unsupported assertion. Consider that the majority -- around 75% -- of human interactions are not monetized; family groups usually run on pure communism internally ("from each according to their ability; to each according to their needs"), otherwise we'd see parents charging their kids for accommodation and play-time.

    Capitalism is the preferred resource-extraction mode of imperialism, and insofar as we're living in an era dominated by a planetary trade empire, capitalism is ubiquitous -- but I'm not convinced it's inevitable or persistent (once we pass through the current spike of scientific and technological innovation, either to collapse again or to reach some sort of high technology post-industrial equilibrium state).

    National languages ... yes. Similar laws: that's a side-effect of the trade empire (enforcing its norms globally). similar costumes, foods ... nope, what's happening is globalization. Languages are another matter, and world religions are competing for mind share -- that's orthogonal to the imperial process, although one cluster of faiths is more tightly associated with the Empire than others -- but you can't necessarily disentangle this from simply being a side-effect of population growth and vastly more fluid communications.

    231:

    To me, it seems more likely to be a symptom of an unhappy marriage. Just a guess, as I've never met Mr. or Mrs. Niven.

    232:

    They've been together for about 50 years, AIUI. Doesn't sound very unhappy to me. (Also: I'd like to discourage further speculation along these lines.)

    233:

    Yes and ... ?? Wasn't there a super-Dyson sphere round a globular cluster proposed at one point? [ We'll ignore problems with novae, extra radiation from such an enclosure melting the shell, etc, for now ....

    234:

    There are no decorative arts, and nobody does any craft or arts off duty as a way to relax. H Beam Piper nailed that one down in "Space Viking" .. lots of the crew/officers had "hobbies" that were esoteric/intellectual/artistic to while away the time "In hyper" ....

    235:

    Why are there male and female? Why does there have to be sex specialization?

    Because gametes have a cost, and there's two energetically successful approaches; MANY low cost gametes, or relatively few high-cost/higher success gametes. There isn't an evolutionary stable strategy for medium numbers/medium cost.

    We call the producers of the many low-cost gametes male, and the producers of the relatively few high-cost gametes female.

    (This leaves out questions of transportation costs for gametes, the stuff single-celled organisms do to exchange the medium of heredity, sex effects on cellular metabolism, and issues of stability of sex-selection by chromosomes over evolutionary time. It's biology, it's fractally complex.)

    236:

    Instead, it's a wonder that portrays science as inferior, while the human spirit emerges triumphant regardless of it all. Pleas, Sir, can I go out to be violently sick?

    237:

    as in Jean le Flambeur's breaking of the Oubliette on Mars in "The Quantum Thief". I'm going to have to try reading those again & see if I can work out W T F is actually happening, if anything outside the various narrator's heads or drug hazes, or whatever, maybe.

    238:

    It helps to bear in mind that Hannu is bright enough to have actually made a caper plot that hinges on the technical details of quantum cryptography. (Which is a real thing, BTW.)

    "The Quantum Thief" was beaten to the Hugo shortlist in its year of publication by the comparatively primitive and crude "The Expanse" ... by two nominations.

    I have this theory that it doesn't pay to be too smart when you're writing SF/F because the majority of readers approach it looking for brainless escapism. Hannu provides a datum point for this theory.

    239:

    I don't think capitalism is inevitable, persistent (or, for that matter, particularyl desireable) either. Between capitalism and imperialism, which one is the preferred resource extraction method of which depends on whom you ask. Lenin, for instance, would disagree with you. :)

    Capitalism, of course, does not encompass all human relationships (familial, domestic labourwise, social etc), but that wasn't my point. A couple of centuries ago capitalism as a top-level socio-economic system coexisted with various feudalisms, pastoralisms and ancestral hunter-gathering. Not anymore.

    As to globalisation (and global trade), I don't think that is something distinct from capitalism. IIRC, the ratio of global trade to global GDP was not that different than today back in 1913. People had already started adopting foreign fashions and foods at a large scale. But, say, 200 years ago, e.g. Japan was vastly different than France. Not today.

    The point is, there is a clear trend of cultural homogeneisation and political unification (we have UN, WTO, IMF, etc) in human history. We might as well end up in a cliche communist world republic a la Star Trek rather than a posthumanistic fragmented species.

    240:

    There are no long-term societal goals other than expansion, maintaining the status quo, or making everyone happier.

    Realistically, SHOULD there be long-term societal goals? Historically, human societies either do not have any long-term goals at all, or have some combination of the three you listed.

    By "long-term" I mean "significantly longer than human lifespan", so if human lifespan greatly increases, so will the realistic timeframe for societal goals. But generally, I do not believe any human society can maintain a defined goal which does not map onto one of the above three over multiple generations. In fact, any society which DOES so, would be by definition alien or post-human.

    241:

    Why are there male and female? Why does there have to be sex specialization?

    I'm not a biologist, but...

    There are some organisms that satisfy your description of species Z: most snails are hermaphrodites, and can exchange genes in either direction.

    Why there are two sexes is an interesting question: most single-celled organisms that reproduce sexually also have two mating types, so the "one provider of small numbers of large gametes and one provider of large numbers of small gametes" idea is not a sufficient explanation. One suggestion (see also here; not sure if either of these is open access, since sometimes my university account lets me through paywalls so smoothly that I don't see that they're there) is that having two and only two mating types is necessary, or at least selectively advantageous, to avoid potentially damaging competition in cytoplasmic inheritance (e.g. mitochondria).

    This is interesting: on Earth all multicellular life evolved (multiple times; multicellularity is obviously advantageous enough that several lineages discovered it independently) from eukaryotic cells with cytoplasmic organelles. It appears that, for whatever reason, it's hard for terrestrial prokaryotes to evolve multicellularity. It is not obvious that this would hold for alien life, and if it did not, the references linked above suggest that evolution would favour the development of very large numbers of mating types (this has happened in mushrooms: the linked article says that "It is estimated that some 160 different A mating types exist in nature" in the ink cap mushroom, Coprinus cinereus (just to complicate the issue further, there's another mating type locus, B, not much discussed in the paper). The sociology of a society with 160 different genders might be, er, interesting...

    The evolution of sexual reproduction is itself non-trivial to explain: the argument that it "would be necessary for evolution to take place" doesn't wash, because evolution is not a conscious or directed process—a mutation that has short-term costs will not, in general, prosper even if it provides long-term gains. Therefore, the so-called "two-fold cost of sex" (only half of the individuals can produce offspring) has to yield immediate benefits if it is to survive. There's a discussion here. Basically, you need some aspect of the environment that changes rapidly enough for the increased variation produced by sexual reproduction to have immediate benefits. This seems to be a fairly easy condition to meet, hence the ubiquity of sexual reproduction. There are, however, some very successful asexual species: the common dandelion is mostly asexual, and a glance at my lawn tells me that it is entirely capable of outcompeting grass...

    242:

    Mental work can go into a book, I just want it to be the authors work not mine. I'd rather not have to work for it, but I like to see that you did. The Expanse is appreciated because it tells an old fashioned kind of story with more up to date knowledge. Because it fills a gap between anything goes FTL space fantasy and near future tales set on Earth. It tells the kind of story the FTL fantasies do without taking the liberties they do. And this is good. This is appreciated because it's needed. I started reading The Quantum Thief, but couldn't get far because I didn't know what was going on and didn't care about anybody. It's similar to Seeds of Earth (which Banks blurbed) in that. The first chapter read like a video game and the second chapter was unreadable. It was set on a colonized planet, just throwing unpronounceable names of unfamiliar plants and animals at me and I just didn't care. Same with Luna, the new book by Ian MacDonald. There was one character that grabbed me, a lower class type trying to survive, just followed for a short way to show the background, then it's into the upper crust types having a party and meeting each other and posing and learning 30 different names and what people are wearing. Threw it down and finally looked at Existence by Brin, totally different. I care about every single character, and even though alien stuff is thrown at me it's done in such a way I know what's important, and nothing is just forcing me to admire the window dressing.

    243:

    My response to a book should not be "is this on the test?"

    244:

    My understanding, which comes from stories about sea slugs doing "penis fencing," (yes, that's a thing with non-humans too), is that the female of the pair gets stuck with a greater investment in producing the offspring, having to lay the eggs and such. As a result, in species that are both male and female, there can be competition to not be the one stuck producing the eggs, and this can get rather violent.

    Note that this isn't necessarily worse than what males do to each other in their attempts to be the sperm donor. The general point is that, as with all things in life, reproduction is imperfect, there are costs, and often evolution favors one group trying to get away from paying the costs at the expense of sticking it to others.

    Personally, my favorite under-explored life cycle is heteromorphic alternation of generations. That's fun to play with.

    245:

    "Finally, we can ask why these are popular now."

    Start Warts. People haven't stopped going on about it since the first one came out; there's just been a new one to get everyone going on about it even more, and AIUI there's another one on the way. Charlie's publishers see this and think "hey, let's get Charlie to write Start Verrucas, that'd coin it in".

    "Is there something going on in the world that makes people want to stop thinking and hope that they can conquer the future with emotional power alone?"

    Yes. People exist.

    246:

    Yes indeed. I'm rather disgusted that I said it myself. Then again, I started honestly looking at all the space operas I'd read and seen, and that came through rather clearly.

    247:

    Problem with all those megastructures that work on the principle of a ring or shell orbiting a central star is that it isn't stable. Any perturbation that disturbs it from perfect concentricity will result in out-of-balance forces tending to increase the deviation, etc. etc. until one side of it hits the star. To make it work you need some form of active stabilisation. Or else you can abandon one or other of the establishing characteristics, so you get either an Iain Banks Orbital or Saturn-type rings. It seems that not a lot of people know this.

    248:

    Not to mention the tensile strength thing. Incidentally there are apparently rings and spheres in the Cultureverse. CP ch 5, para 109 "[the Vavatch Orbital] was bested for what the Culture would call gasp value only by a big Ring , or a Sphere". Very long thin Oniel cylinders without all the silly glass are your best bet. You can use artificial light. And stack layers of them them inside of each other with cool gaps and canyons for hang gliding.

    249:

    Incidentally, I think it's okay for spaceships to be symmetrical.

    Charlie's complaining about bilateral symmetry, i.e. where the left side is a reflection of the right, but no other symmetry pertains. Like, to name one random example, any incarnation of NCC-1701 Enterprise, or nearly every spaceship on the cover of an SF book.

    If one hasn't got control of gravity fields, then the forces acting on a spaceship are more like those acting on a building than on an airliner, and the design problems simplify if the spaceship architect goes for two-plane symmetry (in human reference terms, so that the front is mirrored by the back, as well as right and left) or radial symmetry of whatever order pleases.

    Also, if we're talking warships, symmetrical coverage of weapons is better than asymmetrical defences so that there are no obvious weak angles to attack or blindspots to take advantage of. The most egregious example of this I recall is the asinine design of the space battleship in the single-season series Space: Above and Beyond, designed exactly like a wet navy battleship with all its guns on one side, and which got attacked in one episode by the cunning aliens on the "underside". Fiendish alien thinking! Who could have anticipated that?

    Asymmetry is also okay, if the writer or designer can pull it off.

    250:

    "I think it's a very telling authorial quirk."

    Agreed. But I disagree about its implausibility - there is no need for children to be as dependent as ours are, and lots of animals have major differences in the sexes. Even among vertebrates, there are angler fish etc. I do accept that 'our' sort of child-rearing is implausible with only one sentient sex, but it's not the only plausible one.

    251:

    "Ahh, missed this bit:

    Note that once the surface is ablated the resulting gas then becomes the absorber.

    The cloud of gas is necessarily less effective than the solid that produced it, on account of being less dense/taking up more volume: there'll be less stuff in the way of the beam, and when the beam heats it up it'll get out of the way faster."

    OTOH the cloud of gas doesn't have to absorb: it's enough for it to disrupt the focus of the beam and so bugger up the concentration of energy. (Which it will do pretty much regardless of what it's made of because of the differences in refractive index between it and the surrounding medium.)

    This is a known problem both for industrial laser materials processing and for military use of lasers as fancy guns. The solution is to use very short laser pulses to deliver the energy faster than the gas cloud can develop.

    Another aspect is that this sudden vaporisation of target material on sub-nanosecond timescales is equivalent to a small explosive charge going off at the point the beam hits. In materials processing you see the effect that the shorter the laser pulses the more effective it is, even if the average power is unchanged; in weapons systems it gives another and probably more useful damage mode.

    Damage to mirrors when reflecting a laser beam is something that becomes a consideration at power levels under a watt. The energy concentrations are such that even dirt invisible to the eye on the mirror will absorb enough energy to ruin it. The beam-steering for the military lasers that Charlie and I mentioned earlier is done by generating a very wide beam and using a curved mirror to focus it on the target, thus keeping the energy concentrations at the emitting end low. Another area of research for such applications is the generation of stable refractive index gradients in gases, to produce optical components that instantly repair themselves.

    252:

    Oh, yes, indeed. I was thinking of one where the plant/animal distinction had developed only after sexual reproduction, and most species alternated between the two. The seed, pollen and pollinating insect analogues would be the animal forms of the plants, which is a much more efficient mechanism, hence stable. The uterus of a mammalogue would be the plant form of the animal. Etc. It's been used in SF but not, in my view, at all well.

    253:

    You can make a cloud of statites approximate a ring/dyson sphere reasonably well, at least for doing frivolous things like trying to build a nicoll-dyson laser or stellar engine. It also avoids all of the problems with the handwavium required to build the really big megastructures, let alone the sheer mass you'd need you build a full sphere. I don't know how close you could situate the statites though, and I've no idea about how easy it would be to travel from one to a neighbour, though. Might be hard.

    254:

    I can't remember what the Culture definition of a Sphere is, but an Orbital isn't the standard ring-around-a-star; its Hub is the residence of the supervising Mind, and the whole thing orbits side-on to the star in a planetary-type orbit. Which still isn't without problems, but the immensely strong magic material they're made of pretty much covers that.

    255:

    7.Technology - space travel

    • You only need one kind of spacesuit; it will suit any gravity, pressure, temperature, atmosphere or terrain you might encounter.
    256:

    Here's my list (sorry if repeating anything, making this up before diving into comments):

    Old earth is technologically backward re. the spacers, because the productivity boost of beeing 9 billion people and have less worry about life support than on a spaceship somehow does not translate into technological advancement. (Schismatrix?, Asimovs Caves of steel)

    Spacer culture is somehow more wild and open to experimentation that earth culture, because living in ultra fragile ships etc. is somehow great for social experiments (Schismatrix, Angel Station)

    A society that operates like our own made it to space (not impossible, but interesting constraints - which organization today could do any project on a century timescale ROI)

    There's something like an interplanetary (multiple solar systems) polity - expect a bunch of mad improvisations around the problems faced by signal lag and the fact that everything involving travel takes decades to centuries.

    You can make profound statementes about how aliens will behave with just a little bit of thinking, and those statements will be shown true before the last page (Fermis "paradox" + vN probes, Verthandis ring)

    Spacers and dirtsiders are exchangable - someone having lived on earth will readily adapt to live aboard a spaceship or other planet and vice versa. Why build spaceships around standard-issue humans when you can have a smaller and lighter model (without legs?), cultural and behavioral norms work equally well dirt- and spaceside (Safety culture ability to handle masses of people, more or less used to living in a panopticon ...)

    Lifesupport tech for space is not used on earth for other purposes (or lifesupport).

    Any space tech is not used planetside

    Progressors (Noon Universe) or Contact (Culture). Not imnpossible but ...

    Space travel puts a dent on earths population (not impossible but please show the math ...)

    Space as a refuge for excentric outcasts (Zionists in space! Bucaneers/Maroons/Quilombos in space! Libertarians in space!) - unless they have a rather large contruction/support base

    The fact that a space-bound society depends on systems that are incredibly reliable and complexx somehow does not affect its politics

    257:

    "There are, however, some very successful asexual species: the common dandelion is mostly asexual, and a glance at my lawn tells me that it is entirely capable of outcompeting grass..."

    The sex life of plants beggars description. There are at multiple separate forms of asexual reproduction, for a start.

    258:

    The first book I self-published was based on a world where the animals (called cryptids, for reasons that will soon become obvious) were based on a vertebrate-like ancestor that had color-changing abilities to shame a cuttlefish. ALL land "vertebrates" had descended from this thing, so there was a wide range of camouflage and lack thereof on this world (fur and feathers got in the way, so species that evolved pelage for thermoregulation had to do other stuff). This is why I happen to know about using color changes to communicate, because the dominant alien species (a dragon-crocodile thing that just loved to garden and domesticate species, including humans, but which couldn't make fire) communicated almost entirely by pattern changes.

    The other fun thing I did on that world was that all the land vertebrates had life cycles based on ferns: one generation (the gametotype) was male/female and reproduced through sex, the other (the sporotype) was structurally female and produced male and female offspring asexually through mitosis. And the generations could be structurally fairly different. For the intelligent aliens, the sporotype was the really intelligent and really large dominant morph, while the sexual gametotypes were much smaller, less intelligent, led by their mothers, and prone to sex-based competition, which could get really annoying in season.

    Fun world. I'll have to go back to it some day.

    259:

    "I do accept that 'our' sort of child-rearing is implausible with only one sentient sex"

    I think you'd need only very minor changes to make it work. In plenty of human cultures and also non-human species, child-rearing is a collaborative effort undertaken by all the females in the group. As long as the various factors like group size, overall lifetime, reproductive rate and length of childhood are suitably balanced so that the group as a whole still has plenty of capacity left over to do whatever else needs to be done, it should work.

    Lions are a sort-of example - one male acts as sperm donor to a group consisting of females and cubs, but it's the females who do pretty much everything else, including helping each other with the cubs.

    Also the extreme dependency of human children is a consequence of the sub-optimal solutions produced by random evolution: the baby comes out through a hole in the middle of a major structural member, instead of going round the side. It has to make its exit while it's still small and undeveloped enough to fit through a hole which is limited in size by the need to avoid the mother's legs falling off. In engineering terms the arrangement is bloody daft, but it's also the result of random chances, and I don't see any necessary reason why evolution on another planet would have to follow a like course.

    260:

    Well, another engineering constraint on embryo placement appears to be that they develop around the mother's center of mass (although this is arguable--I don't know if it's been studied). From a balance perspective, this makes sense, as a developing embryo some other place (like, say, the head, as in plants) could make movement that much harder. The countervailing problem is that a lot of stuff works better around the center of mass--like major structural members--so it's not clear that any endoskeletal alien could easily escape this problem.

    261:

    Or not evolution for better ways of doing it. See various works, although "Gur Ybat erfhyg" ol Wbua Oehaare fcevagf gb zvaq. (Rot 13 for obvious spoileriness if you like reading 60's/70's SF)

    262:

    it's not clear that any endoskeletal alien could easily escape this problem.

    We escape it, whenever surgical intervention is used: births by caesarian section don't go through a major structural member. It is possible to envisage an arrangement of the abdomen whereby as birth approached the uterus (perhaps temporarily) developed an attachment to the abdominal wall, and birth occurred through some sort of natural fissure. This is, in effect, what marsupials do: they give birth to what, in placental terms, is an early embryo, which then develops in an external "womb" (the pouch). All your alien needs is an internal connection to avoid the need for the embryo to be born in order to transfer from womb to pouch. That doesn't seem like an impossible thing to evolve, though it's not the way terrestrial mammals developed.

    263:

    Yes, I'd managed to work that bit (Q-crypto) out, but I still got lost several times, trying to work out what was "real" what was "inside the computer", what was possibly a dream/heightened/depressed mind-view that was quite possibly inside (for various values of "inside") the computer(s). Err ...

    264:

    This isn't exclusively space opera but:

    • Interstellar colony missions are launched because climate change/resource depletion made earth uncool to live on. Never mind how a totally collapsing world could afford it why would they choose such a bad ROI? Rather than build one canned ecosystem/economy that's thrown into the void build fifty on/under the surface of the planet.
    265:

    Excellent point, we didn't evolve that way, but it seems like a perfectly workable birth mechanism Would probably be a popular option with most women if we could retro engineer

    266:

    Then there's FERNS, with two totally different forms between alternating generations, as previously mentioned ....

    267:

    OTOH the cloud of gas doesn't have to absorb: it's enough for it to disrupt the focus of the beam and so bugger up the concentration of energy. (Which it will do pretty much regardless of what it's made of because of the differences in refractive index between it and the surrounding medium.)

    So the defending spaceship can just squirt small amounts of gas from conveniently-located nozzles on the hull in the general direction of any attacking ship to negate their ultra-death-kazzoom-lasergun or defocus its beam sufficiently for the brightly-polished tungsten-alloy hullplates to absorb the energy harmlessly.

    This is a known problem both for industrial laser materials processing and for military use of lasers as fancy guns.

    Fortunately for the US Navy's experimental shipborne lasers it never gets foggy or ever rains at sea.

    268:

    Laser/target interactions are complicated, with lots of strict thresholds and non-linear behaviour.

    Hit a solid with a pulse of enough laser energy in a small enough spot over a short enough time, then it digs a hole and creates a cloud of plasma expanding at supersonic speed.

    That ablated plasma blocks the laser until it dissipates, so there's a limit on your pulse repetition rate. Plasmas are really good at blocking lasers. We had a millisecond of pulse followed by 10 ms of just hanging about waiting for the plasma to spread out. And then to get any kind of drilling effect, the next pulse has to track and hit the same spot as the first. Also, your spots have to be tiny to get sufficient plasma density so retargetting gets hard.

    (Source - I did my PhD on laser welding with 10 kW lasers focused to 0.25 mm spots, so a useful power density)

    Hit that target with not-quite enough energy and most bounces off and it just heats up until it re-radiates that energy away. Hence Dick's carbon matting. Back that up with multiple layers of reflective foil in a vacuum (as per Skylon's thermal insulation) so the re-radiated heat isn't absorbed by whatever is behind the matting and you've got a target that's very well armoured against lasers. Add to that the blocking effect of the generated plasma and it continues to look like laser weapons are a lot less effective than laser armour.

    To bring this back to the clichés at hand, here's my quick laser clichés: - Laser weapon punches clean hole right through vehicle and out the other side (fuck no, deep drilling is hard coz of ablated plasmas and changing focus depth) - Laser weapon leaves hole with hot edges but nothing else catches fire (fuck no, heat spreads all over the shop from reflections and from IR from hot plasma. Shit's going to be on fire.) - Laser impacts are quiet (fuck no, supersonic ablated plasma is LOUD) - Lasers are quiet (anything with megaWatts of power supply isn't quiet) - Laser impacts cause no physical force (fuck no, ablation pushes hard away from the beam, that's how fusion bombs get more compression than any other device) - Lasers are visible (everyone already uses infra-red for weapons and will do until X-ray lasers get very much better) - Lasers are useful inside atmospheres (I'll be over here, hiding behind this fog/dust/smoke, shooting back with bullets) - Lasers don't need huge power supplies (I'll be over here, using chemical energy to accelerate bullets towards my targets with several orders of magnitude better than laser power supplies) - Lasers don't melt from waste heat (I'll be over here, not treading on my hot brass that removes waste heat from my firearm) - Shiny armour on planets (the shiny helps to reflect 99% plus, but as soon as you get a single spec of dirt on there, instant thermal runaway. Source - I blew up an expensive lens by not cleaning it enough). - Shiny armour that is shiny against more than a narrow band of wavelengths. Yes, aluminium is pretty reflective from mid-IR to UV, but pretty effective means 95%. Specific coatings on that aluminium will get you up to 99.5% but those coatings only work for much narrower wavelengths. That's a factor ten for absorbed energy, which starts to matter (I think Paranoia avoided this trope with colour-specific weapons and armour) - Lasers don't change wavelength (which is true, until free electron lasers get a lot better) - Laser weapons don't result in everyone going blind faster than they can blink (if you're not wearing eye protection that can cope with those wavelengths and power density as well as whatever wavelengths your plasma is emitting at, then you're blind before you can blink, whether you're a target or just looking in the general direction of the target)

    269:

    On "Space and cosmology":

    • "Planets rotate east-to-west."

    As long as the planet isn't tidally locked at 1:1, isn't this true by (arbitrary linguistic) definition? The north rotational axis is defined by the right-hand rule making the sun appear to rise in the east. Unless you want to define east relative to the magnetic north -- but then see "Planets have magnetic poles that approximate their rotational axis". Or are you thinking of something like Uranus, where the rotational axis is nearly parallel to the ecliptic plane? That's likely to be unusual for "habitable zone" planets, isn't it?

    • "Planetary gravity can be approximated to a point source for purposes of calculating orbital dynamics."

    I'm a bit curious about this: how would the truth or falsity of this have any practical narrative consequence? It's close enough to true to be handwaved over in silence, isn't it? Whereas "You can change orbital inclination easily" really is quite wrong.

    And I would offer:

    • "If a planet orbits closer to its sun than you do, then it's currently closer to you than the sun, and you'll pass it on a sunward trajectory."
    270:

    Planetary gravity can be approximated to a point source for purposes of calculating orbital dynamics

    Yes, it is close enough to true for the purposes of storytelling. A perfect sphere exerts gravity as if its entire mass were in the center. Granted, planets are not perfect spheres... but close enough.

    Also, in which space opera did this even come up?

    271:

    "Space travel puts a dent in Earth's population, show math."
    Suppose there are 100 spaceports in the world, each flying 10 scheduled flights to orbit every day. Each Skylon III has a capacity of 100 passengers. That's 100,000 emigrants per day, about 40 million per year, 4 billion in a century.

    272:

    One big thing that is missing is any citation or lspecific examples. You are making the case that hundreds of tropes of space opera have become cliche. I'd expect to see multiple examples of each to classify it as a cliche. Without citation, this comes off as your own list of mistakes you are too smart to make, which I don't think is your intention. The comments are great, but are full of readers working to do the work of defining your terms and citing examples for you. It's not even clear what your definition of space opera even is, especially as you are applying the stringency I'd expect to see when critiquing hard sci-fi. If Star Wars is an exemplar, use that to set the bar. This is a worthy endeavor, but needs some citation to make it arguments solid and clear.

    273:

    A tangent on pregnancy (I still have a raised eyebrow at "Probing Uranus"): the bio-mechanics of it are pretty incredible. e.g. volume of blood increases by 40–50%, Cardiac output increases by about 50%, mostly during the first trimester.

    There's absolutely no reason why an alien lifeform couldn't have larger changes.

    Note: Research into this proved three things:

    1 The UK medical profession produces amazing resources: e.g. Maternal Collapse in Pregnancy and the Puerperium PDF - Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists 2013. Read with caution if you are pregnant, it's a loooong list of potential issues, but luckily you'll see that people are trained for it. (Someone go make this mandatory reading for American Law Makers) 2 There's a dearth of actual info out there on the specifics of bio-mechanical changes during pregnancy. You'll get blitzed instead by a million pages just telling you how long each mammal pregnancy is (17 months for Orcas - but, interesting one: cetacean species can lose up to 50% of their hydrodynamics during pregnancy. Would this effect pregnant spaceships?). 3 The internet has gone past the Singularity of click-bait lists: for instance, here's 52 facts on:

    What Vaginas Have in Common With Sharks and Tomatoes Spry Living, 2013. Spoilers: PH and lubricants, people find that the planet has a similar biochemistry odd.

    ~

    On a meta-thought level, 30 years later in Space Opera: I think that references to 'feels' is 100% a thing. Cracking the young adult (16-24) walnut might rely on it.

    YA authors would know more.

    274:

    Also, in which space opera did this even come up?

    Every one in which satellites stay where you put them (that is, where orbits don't drift due to local mass concentrations/gravitational anomalies, tidal forces from other moons/planets/bodies, and so on).

    275:

    ... Only if nobody ever comes back!

    276:

    Dude, this list of around 300 tropes was about four hours' work.

    Footnoting it would take me about four months.

    Hint: I did this as an aide memoire so I'd remember what not to put in my next space opera, not as a doctoral thesis. If you're volunteering to do the legwork, be my guest! Otherwise, feel free to STFU and stop complaining.

    277:

    As Susan points out, it's not the location of the gestational organ that causes the difficulty, but the routing of its access port. The chances of terrestrial evolution have constrained terrestrial species to a routing with significant problems (it's not just human heads that show it up; calves, for instance, get stuck in the cow if their legs aren't arranged right), but I'm not aware of any biological constraint that would forbid, say, an abdominal location for the access port (such as is created temporarily in Caesarean procedures).

    278:

    Earth rotates west to east, so the sun rises in the east and sets in the west by definition. We've defined the magnetic dipoles arbitrarily by the correlation between our rotational and magnetic poles. Of course, even on Earth, the magnetic poles don't line up perfectly with our rotational axis (and see also the South Atlantic anomaly for additional zippy goodness).

    As for the non-point nature of gravity, it depends on the scale. If you're coming in at 500 AU/second and trying to rendezvous with your target plant, then a planet's gravitational field can readily be defined as a point so far as you're concerned, at least until you slow the heck down. If you're in low Earth orbit, then all those mountain ranges will deflect your butt, and that will matter. If you're using gravity to sense both mass and changes in mass (as with satellites that are quantifying the groundwater loss in California's central valley by how much mass changes are affecting their orbits, then gravity is a complex subject indeed, and that complexity holds a great deal of useful data.

    279:

    And as Douglas Adams put it so well Space is big. Really big.

    280:

    Only if the rate of emigration is significant with respect to the birth rate....

    281:

    It's a hard call, because we're off in Evo-Devo land (evolutionary development).

    The tl;dr version is that if you want a reproductive system that doesn't run through the pelvis in a vertebrate, then you've got to come up with the scheme by which this also works for its fishy ancestor and then interacts with the evolution of hind limbs. One thing that gets weird is that the position of developing embryos probably matters more to a fish than it does to a non-swimming amphibian, because of the possibility of shifting the center of mass and how this might affect swimming ability.

    Still, vertebrates aren't the only animals, and I don't know enough about how insects deal with egg production to say much that's useful. They develop eggs in the abdomen, but they fly too, so they get around balance issues somehow. Arguably, if you can figure out a giant, endoskeletal analog of an insect, with that reproductive abdomen off at the end, limbs coming off the center, and all, then that would be the best way to get away from routing the embryo through a stiff pelvis and causing difficulties.

    282:

    Mammals are heavily influenced by having spent ~100 Myears basically very small; we lost lumbar ribs because you need flexibility more than support when small. One set of adult teeth, small creatures don't last long anyway, etc. Lots of consequences.

    In our particular case -- that is, placental mammals -- having strong abdominal muscles is really important to being able to move. You'd never get a birth canal that gaps the abdominal muscles to work because of the locomotor hit. (Plus the usual large quadruped problems; belly skin is the thick stuff because it's holding the heavy digestive machinery in when you get to ungulates, etc.) You could presumably manage a form of pregnancy where the abdominal musculature redevelops behind the womb while the existing abdominal musculature atrophies until the birth process is like peeling off a sheet of wet rawhide and managing the umbilical cord appropriately. (Presumably the mother regrows a navel out which said umbilical feeds.)

    I'd be very surprised if that could evolve.

    283:

    I think you're right about this. Shall we call it "Initiate Verrucas VII: the virus awakens?" and wait for part VIII: the search for host cells?

    From a marketing perspective, this works, as SWars and STrek both have sequels running right now, so anything resembling them might sell for another few years.

    Which is good, and stuff.

    Not sure why Lovecraft 2.0 is so popular right now, though, unless it's due to American elections.

    284:

    Not sure why Lovecraft 2.0 is so popular right now, though, unless it's due to American elections.

    Lots of sources of formless dread.

    285:

    'non-SF books set wholly on Earth, and "pretend everyone is speaking in English" is by far the most-used/most-accepted solution'

    One I really like too. Sadly not used enough in my opinion.

    There are a couple of exceptions, but in film it's rare. There was a British tv series set in the second world war, the name of which escapes me. When the Germans spoke German to each other, they did it in English. The officers had posh British accents and the Privates had working class British accents. As a native English speaker that carried a lot of background information about the characters. In later episodes the veiwpoint character ended up in England where he spoke English to British people in heavily German accented English. It made it really clear who was speaking what and allowed me to follow everything in a way that subtitles (my second favourite) don't.

    286:

    Ok, almost @ 300, so time for fireworks.

    Host is prodding something that's almost a given nowadays:

    Question: What's the #1 most nostalgia filled SF cancellation in TV history (enough to get it a film)?

    Answer: Firefly.

    Question: Why did they cancel it then?!?

    Answer: Money.

    Question: What do the money people (although they're mostly men) demand?

    Answer: well, its trending at the moment:

    Video of actors reading real casting calls for female roles will make you laugh and cry (VIDEO) Pink News 4th March, 2016

    Actresses Read the Real (and Really Sexist) Casting Calls They're Subjected to Each Day AdWeek 4th March 2016

    Yeah, but don't be a chump:

    https://twitter.com/projectcasting Project Casting: Twitter

    Project Casting The Website.

    They're kinda getting smarter and better, but it's like watching a dinosaur attempt to make fire. Or a predatory creepy Dominionist hug his daughter and her not freeze with horror at the abuse. [note: tracked - a lot of money was spent on that one. How to burn $40 mil real quick. Right in your face]

    ~

    It's easy if you don't understand Lynch's work (notably Lost Highway and Mulholland Drive) to get confused at this.

    ~

    Step back a bit.

    Now, let's imagine a world where the people are making all the money don't actually understand how that money was generated (cough Ghost Busters revamp, Mitt Romney Bain Capital Corporate Raids cough).

    So, they don't understand the process of how Capital functions, but they understand how to leverage the levers (hello Harvard MBAs - top tip: never fuck with a Goddess) to exploit the outcome: so what's the result?

    A shitty project that makes no money.

    ~

    Now, of course, that's not their fault. That's either the consumers (lazy, evil, dumb, misogynistic, racist, blah blah blah) or just Politics.

    ~

    Where was I going with this?

    Oh, yes.

    It's a System.

    And what's the rule of Law from System Theory?

    You break it at your peril.

    Fun fact - you can map this on the entire system (which is why the Libertarians do have some saving graces).

    Not sure why Lovecraft 2.0 is so popular right now, though, unless it's due to American elections.

    Two reasons:

    1 Original is now outdated 2 Author is "problematic" so derp, children need a new Santa Clause whose acceptable 3 Real fucking deal turned up and finds your shit to be whack.

    p.s.

    Real Time with Bill Maher: Overtime – March 4, 2016 (HBO) YT: US comedy: 14:08

    Hey, Mickey: they're paying attention.

    287:

    Ah yes, film/TV gives you the accent thing which (if done well) provides a level of nuance you don't really get in a book. The converse is that it severely restricts you when it comes to wholly non-acoustic communication (a stronger constraint than "non-verbal"; it's remarkable how much you can work out of what the Clangers are saying).

    (Aside re subtitles... in the context of an English presentation of what was originally a foreign-language film, I strongly prefer subtitles to dubbing. Not only for the preservation of the original actors' voices and expression, but also because it allows me both to pick up nuances that are lost in translation if I know the relevant bits of the foreign language, and to learn about those bits if I don't know them.)

    288:

    Hmmm... not convinced. The major muscles involved in locomotion (apart from those of the limbs themselves) run along the spine. The abdominal musculature is comparatively thin (humans are somewhat unusual in this regard as the muscles are located somewhat differently in quadrupeds), and it already is split down the middle - the muscles run fore-and-aft, and the seam down the middle (linea alba) is connective tissue. An abdominal birth canal would simply be a gap in this seam, reinforced by alterations of the immediately surrounding musculature, normally of small size but with considerable capacity to stretch - ie. essentially the same deal as at present, just in a different place.

    289:

    Diastasis recti -- the point at which separation of those abdominal muscles becomes a medical condition -- is defined as about an inch of separation in humans; Wikipedia says 27mm. It's going to be very difficult to get a baby out a gap that size. The list of associated problems is a long one, too; diastasis recti won't kill you but it will certainly impair your mobility, at which point your survival odds in a state of nature go way down.

    And remember that there's transverse muscles in there, too. It's not all vertical. Those would also have to get out of the way by some means.

    Veterinary version has to deal with being the long-term primary load support; that space where there's no ribs has the digestive system in it. If you've got ribs (like a non-avian dinosaur) the gap is even more a problem.

    290:

    There are all sorts of problems with world building for stories, even stories set on contemporary earth. Why sweat that stuff? Start with a good story that you want to tell. Space operas are just good old melodramatic, generally romantic adventure stories. This kind of story needs a bigger canvas than some, so they are perfect for outer space. There hasn't been room for this kind of story on earth for over a century.

    Once you have your story, you can figure out what world it makes sense in. The nice thing is that there are really only so many stories if you are willing to generalize a bit. There's sort of an anthropic principle you can exploit too. Just as we aren't interested in cosmologies that can't produce philosophers, there is no point in building a story world where you can't have an adventure.

    When you are a kid, you can make an adventure world out of a large paper box, a table and a sheet, or the couch you are allowed to climb on. As an adult writer, you have just as much freedom, so don't sell science short. Anyone arguing the details of a laser combat system designed 500 years from now is fooling him or herself. Science journals are full of weird ass near field phenomena like plasmons, topological insulators, shaped light forms built using frequency combs and matter waves modulated and focused by standing light waves.

    Want to power FTL? Why not use dark matter? We know as much now about dark matter as Edgar Rice Burroughs knew about radium and alpha rays, but he used the excitement of the ideas to build a fantastic Mars. We know that most visible matter in the universe follows invisible filaments. Those are your FTL railroad tracks, and you can backsolve for causality, think railroads/time zones except with real math. Want to justify lots of steamy sex? I was just reading a journal article on why sexual creatures live longer. Maybe sex is a new genetic modification somewhere?

    Ever since Jules Verne took time tested stories and added advanced technology extrapolated from the science and technology headlines, we've had something like space opera. Choose your story, then build your world.

    P.S. Dandelions are not asexual, they are apomictic. They can double fertilize themselves.

    291:

    One such possibility for the ubiquity of the need for sleep is that real life brains implement the same wake-sleep algorithm as a Helmholtz machine.

    292:

    Antimatter fueled warpships allowed in LEO seems strange, I suspect if they become real they won't be allowed anywhere near inhabited planets/structures with significant amounts of antimatter on board. 300 million km sounds about close enough.

    293:

    One more: Despite the Galactic Empire comprising a gazillion times more sentient beings than present-day Earth, technology has advanced at the rate of one innovation every century or two.

    (Pock's World by Dave Duncan is all about what this really means...)

    294:

    Hadil, did you used to post here under another name?

    295:

    I'd love to see a space opera where the dominant mode of economic organisation consists of cooperatives and mutual societies rather than the corporation of late modern capitalism. The evil megacorporation has become a literary cliche all of its own and it would be interesting to see a space opera with alternative economic structures replacing it. Imagine a future where 21st century corporations are blamed for everything that went wrong in that period and are regarded with the same perplexed horror that we reserve for the worst abuses of medieval feudalism (e.g. serfdom). Perhaps our descendents will decide to structure their economic affairs around more democratic institutions built upon notions of non-hierarchical mutuality in reaction to the excesses of the "Corporate Era" and its complex legacy. At least it would be an alternative to the particularly nasty strain of libertarianism that infects a lot of the space opera being published at the moment.

    Personally, I'd love to see a space opera built around a conflict between an interstellar society with a steady-state economy built on democratic cooperatives that arose out of the environmental disasters of the late 21st century and an obnoxious expansionistic libertarian society that believes in the manifest destiny of humans to colonize the stars. (Think of the Carlyle family from Ken MacLeod's Newton's Wake, but with a touch more Ayn Rand and some space cadet nonesense thrown in for good measure).

    (Yes, I know the Culture novels flirt with some of these notions, but they aren't central to the narrative and Banks never fully explores the economic implications).

    296:

    One of the funniest and saddest moments in the recent season of Doctor Who was when Davros remarks on how hard it was to acquire the only other chair on Skaro so the Doctor would have somewhere to sit...

    297:

    Reading this really made me appreciate parts 1 and 2 of Seveneves.

    298:

    We can't detect spaceships by looking for their infrared emissions against the 2.7 kelvin cosmic background temperature

    One possible countermeasure would be to dump the waste heat in a fairly narrow beam, at the cost of a more energy-intensive cooling system. The reaction mass however, is probably going to be an omnidirectional radiator, and warm.

    And there is more background than just the cosmic microwave background: asteroids, stars, dust. If the spaceship is dim enough, I would expect it to take too much telescope time to identify it against this background to make an all-sky search practical. However, once detected, tracking would be a different matter: the adversary now knows where to look and what they're looking at so can use long exposures with a sensitive panchromatic detector.

    299:

    well, I would guess that the system isn't going to be any good at learning as long as the components can find an excuse to either save vs learning, or shoot the messenger.

    One thing I'm thinking about is how much of the broken system is due to the way that people overvalue positive high-payoffs. (forget the term for it, will wiki)

    Throw in people who think that anything they don't understand is easy, and I'm not entirely surprised that the money keeps funding uncreative stuff, or chooses to economize in silly ways. Disappointed, but not surprised.

    Just as maintenance isn't sexy, I suspect that near-guaranteed small profits aren't sexy... (which, thinking more about it, that's pretty much a reflexive statement. Maintenance is dependable small profits)

    re- parenthetical warning: Sadly, from my experience in the M(X)A sausage machine, I doubt that many Harvard MBAs have the humility to heed the warning. My experience was that about 10% wanted to learn, and 90% wanted to get 3 magic letters to put on the CV. I doubt the B & P models of sausage machines are substantially different in that regard, nor is Harvard likely to select for more humility than my substantially lower-tier school.

    300:

    Sure, but a pathological condition is pretty much by definition irrelevant. The current Earth standard land vertebrate body plan has not evolved to support a one-inch (scale as appropriate for non-human animals) hole through the abdominal muscles, so it's not surprising that the development of such a hole causes problems. But it has evolved to support a one-inch (scale etc.) hole through the pelvic floor muscles (which are also both longitudinal and transverse); the hole and its surrounding musculature can stretch big enough to allow a baby through it; and bipeds can exist and quadrupeds stand on their hind legs without their guts falling out of it. A body plan that had evolved to route that hole through another, broadly similar, set of muscles instead would be just a matter of doing much the same things as the existing standard; some more so, some less so, but overall not a whole lot of difference.

    301:

    You could deploy a large umbrella made of lightweight plastic film, coated with gold on the inside and carbon black on the outside, and hide the spaceship behind that. As long as you knew which half of the sky the enemy were in you'd probably be OK.

    Since there's no problem with air resistance and only inertial forces to deal with, you could make it very large, and maybe manage to hide the reaction mass plume from a usefully large area of sky until it had cooled down. Particularly if you used some form of reaction mass that didn't plume out sideways much - accelerating solid particles backwards one at a time, say. Stealth manoeuvring using a machine gun.

    302:

    Well, not a space opera per se, but Kim Stanley Rinson goes there, with the evolution from nation-states to megacorps to co-ops and mutual aid societies. If you haven't read it, you really should.

    In any case, if space opera has a strongly romantic streak, one of the challenges in writing the story is to make democratic politics romantic. Oddly enough, a lot of writers don't even think of trying this, and that's kind of stupid. Authoritarian regimes are every bit as dirty and stupid as democracy, yet we get stuck with ad nauseum images of good autocrats (King Arthur, for example), and not enough images of good congress members.

    There's a challenge for somebody, actually. Wanna write the story of the Old Republic Senators who shut the Sith out of power, to pick one example? That kind of thing happens too.

    303:

    Speaking of goddesses,

    So far as I know, which movies get made is a largely random process, and there's a strong random element in whether they make money or not.

    There's also a strong random element in places like the US stock market, which is why index funds like the Vanguard specials tend to do better over the long term than, say, Berkshire Hathaway or Donald Drumpf: the so-praised experts are mostly guessing, and they get it individually wrong more often than the crowd average does.

    Still, specialists get paid to try to find the pattern within the randomness, as diviners have for the last 4,000-odd years, so they use the same general tricks: predict that things won't change much, cultivate strategic friendships, and set up your predictions so that the people you're working for tend to spot the successes and overlook the failures.

    And it works, most of the time.

    The problem is that there are also black swans, which are unpredictable but retroactively explainable, and most market swings (and indeed, the world we live in) is a result of black swan events. Diviners routinely analyze black swan events and try to replicate them, generally with no success, because explicable does not mean predictable or replicable (this curse also plagues the studies of evolution and ecology).

    So, in the end, we have systems that replicate mediocre successes, fail to replicate system-altering events, and perpetuate themselves because the people doing the divining have learned the survival skills necessary for their professional survival.

    Whether this also applies to politics is something we'll learn this year in the US.

    Lesson endeth here (23 skidoo)

    304:

    Yep.

    The Titanic is currently being eaten by bacteria that derive energy from oxidising the iron. Can't get much more alien than that. They certainly haven't been fitted by billions of years of evolution to eat ocean liners.

    That doesn't mean we can eat aliens, but they would find us tasty.

    305:

    Another random thought: while it's certainly possible to do Lovecraftian SF, I wonder if it's possible to do Lovecraftian space opera, on the border between Romantic and Gothic.

    Alright, who's done it already?

    306:

    Which Kim Stanley Robinson novel are you referring to - I've read most of his earlier books, but not his more recent works. I still haven't seen this approach used in a space opera. Generally you are dealing with galaxy-spanning empires or federations where some form of capitalism is the normal mode of economic organisation. Yet I have doubts that corporate capitalism will survive the 21st century if the human species is to navigate the difficult challenges ahead - new forms of economic management will evolve as they have in the past when a crisis hits (and I suspect that decentralized cryptocurrencies with built-in political and social assumptions don't count).

    I think it is possible to make democratic politics romantic, although it is difficult.

    Speaking personally, I find rhe politics of the Star Wars universe very depressing. It appears to be a stagnant society ruled by an aristocratic elite where technology doesn't seem to advance for centuries. The best that an ordinary citizen can hope for is to be ruled by a "nice" jedi rather than a "nasty" Sith Lord. In both cases, the authority of these individuals is based upon heredity rather than any democratic mandate. The vestigial democratic institutions of the Old Republic (such as the senate) are repeatedly shown to be both ineffectual and corrupt. Essentially, the original six Star Wars movies involve a dynastic struggle between rival branches of the same bloodline. Heck, even in the most recent Star Wars movie the "democratic" New Republic refuses to move openly against the New Order and gets wiped out as a direct consequence of its dithering. Star Wars consistently paints democracy as an impotent system of government that can only be saved through the personal actions of dynamic individuals who possess extraordinary powers. There's the potential for a nasty satire lurking somewhere in there, but it's not the kind of light-hearted adventure story that Star Wars is known for...

    307:

    It appears that, for whatever reason, it's hard for terrestrial prokaryotes to evolve multicellularity.

    There was a short piece in the most recent issue of Scientific American (March 2016) about this. Apparently some bacteria can communicate among themselves with electrical signals, so that a mass of bacteria can regulate their growth communally. They signal each other not to multiply anymore if the food is scarce.

    I think this is the relevant article in Nature, but I don't have access to it: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v527/n7576/full/nature15709.html

    308:

    I already suggested that an "inhabitable" Uranoid planet could be real "fun" to write about, if you can get your head around the potential climate & weather ....

    309:

    Yes Hadil Benu the Troll - used to be Catina Diamond

    310:

    Oddly enough, this is one of Weber's good points. He shows the political manoeuvrings behind the scenes in his protagonists planetary states. And both groups have good guys & bad guys, too. Quite possibly the least cardboard part of the whole thing ....

    311:

    I think it is possible to make democratic politics romantic, although it is difficult.

    VOTES for WOMEN!

    The 19thC struggles for civic health & the early factories acts - predecessors of current environmental legislation?

    312:

    Thought so. The style is unique. I'm too lazy to go looking, but what brought on the change of identity?

    313:

    Greg Egan wrote some pretty convincing single celled intelligent protagonists however he messed with some pretty basic physics to do it. (In a very internally consistent way)

    314:

    There was a British tv series set in the second world war, the name of which escapes me. When the Germans spoke German to each other, they did it in English. The officers had posh British accents and the Privates had working class British accents... The veiwpoint character ended up in England where he spoke English to British people in heavily German accented English.

    That'd be Private Schulz, a comic view of Operation Bernhard - the Nazi attempt to forge five-pound notes. I must watch the DVD again sometime. 'Allo 'Allo also played with accents to represent languages interestingly - think of when Michelle of the Resistance switches accents when 'interpreting' between René and the British Airmen. I also like what can be done in comics - using different fonts to represent speech in other languages - think of Asterix. Granted, these are all comic examples. It probably wouldn't work as well in a straight situation.

    315:

    Actually, the government is lying to us. On the "dark" side of Uranus a surface of water ice forms where the temperature is about 150 Kelvin, the atmospheric pressure is about 10 atmospheres, and gravity is about 1 earth gravity. This huge ice shelf is punctured by the circular sun side pit, which has the classic characteristics of gradual increase in pressure all the way down into a mushy center. The back side, though is like a huge Antarctica with really strong winds (free energy!). The dirt is water ice, the air is hydrogen, and there are loads of "underground" deposits of methane (plastic!) and ammonia (air! fertilizer!). It's not a bad place and real estate is cheap. Just wrap up when you go outdoors.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranus#/media/File:Tropospheric_profile_Uranus_new.svg

    316:

    Of course the first character who proposes investigating this has to pitch the plan by saying "I want to probe Uranus".

    317:

    That is, (some) eucaroytes seem to have more complex communication than previously thought.

    It's not a multi-cellular organism, but not strictly every bacteria for itself, either.

    318:

    Oh thanks. That was bugging me. There are some bad bits about getting old.

    319:

    Some doubleups with what others have said but what the hell.

    All planets have a breathable atmosphere.

    Someone always takes their helmet off despite being advised/ordered not to. This is never an issue either with asphixiation or disipline.

    Oxygen levels are good for humans, even on lifeless planets that lack any photosynthetic life.

    Spacesuits are one size fits all, even other species. They're no harder to put on than a jumper.

    Away teams are arranged in a way that Captain Cook would recognise. (of course they meet little green sandwich islanders)

    Blasters cause 'flesh wounds' that are rarely more than a nusance. https://xkcd.com/1468/

    No more than the minimum supplies can be carried, despite cavernous cargo holds filled with bulk goods and trash. Tough choices will need to be made and someone will need to step out an airlock for a stroll.

    Replicators can replicate anything, except drugs for distant mining colonies, missing crew and vital engine parts. These require courier services, funerals and unplanned diversions.

    It's a movie thing rather than literature, but all spacecraft being serviced require stick welding and angle grinding of steel. Which of course produces pretty point lights and showers of sparks. Starting spaceships can sometimes be an issue and if it is they make a sound like a 48 chevy with a flat battery. Engine failure in space means they stop where they are and have to wait for pirates to rescue them.

    Clones have all the memories of their cell donor at the moment the sample is taken.

    On unrelated issues...

    I can't believe as mammals we're complaining about our pelvis. You could have been born squid with a toroidal brain that has your oesophagus going straight through the middle. Eat something too big or that goes down the wrong way and you end up with brain damage.

    320:
    You could deploy a large umbrella made of lightweight plastic film, coated with gold on the inside and carbon black on the outside, and hide the spaceship behind that. As long as you knew which half of the sky the enemy were in you'd probably be OK.

    The assumption here is that the enemy is in one half of the sky. When you have suitable technology and industry to build an interplanetary civilisation, you also have the ability to mass produce little IR observation satellites and scatter them in various orbits. Hiding yourself from all of them will be problematic.

    Hiding the satellites from aggressors is much easier, because they don't need hugely energetic engines, and they don't need ridiculously hot 300K life support systems for meatbags.

    Particularly if you used some form of reaction mass that didn't plume out sideways much - accelerating solid particles backwards one at a time, say. Stealth manoeuvring using a machine gun.

    Either your exhaust velocity will be comparatively low, which means you'll need a huge amount of reaction mass with all the problems that entails, or you have to find a way of accelerating said reaction mass to, say, 1% of lightspeed without heating it up. You will probably find this to be quite difficult. At that point, you might be better off using this technology to fire missiles at your opponent from your home planet.

    321:

    ... Only if nobody ever comes back!

    After you dump the first billion or so out the airlock, it's going to be a bit of a navigation hazard.

    322:

    I'm sure I read a short story in the 60's that included giant colony ships with 'cold sleep' that shipped people off by the million. Sadly for those in 'cold sleep' they were just frozen in the normal way (ie. dead) and the giant colony ships went fast enough to get well out of sight but nothing more.

    323:
    That's 100,000 emigrants per day, about 40 million per year, 4 billion in a century.

    Given a word population of, say, 8 billion and a growth rate of 1% per year, dents will not appear. It might also be interesting to consider the economic cost and environmental impact of that many rocket flights over time.

    Mass planetary emigration is probably impractical without a bunch of space elevators. Whilst they're not quite as impossible to make as you might think, they're not exactly trivial to assemble, especially on earth.

    In either case, the logistics of feeding and housing said billions of emigrants is non trivial. You could just use them as a source of biomass for a new colony, but that seems like a different sort of story.

    324:

    It could be really green. Skylons use hydrogen and oxygen.

    325:

    The term for a > 1 inch hole through the abdominal musculature is a fistula. Not nice.

    ...

    If we have sufficiently advanced genetic engineering to be be able to make reliably hereditable morphological changes to the basic human chassis, probably the easiest "fix" for parturition would be to go Full Marsupial -- expel from uterus at 26 weeks, then continue to mature in an external skin pouch. The baby[*] is typically 230mm long and weighs roughly 800 grams, about a fifth as much as at full maturity; more importantly, the lungs are producing surfactants and can actually function.

    Note that this is a distinctly non-trivial problem. It replaces one set of issues (skull/pelvis size) with a brace of others -- from fetal development (all maternal/HERV epigenetic modulation of fetal development must now essentially be completed in the second trimester) to immune system priming (fetus is exposed to skin bacteria and the outside world prematurely), maternal morphological changes (a pouch, with extra mammary tissue, needs to develop during the second trimester), to behavioural issues (baby needs to shit outside of momma's pouch -- implies rewiring the gut or adding some sort of feedback look so that momma knows in advance when baby wants to go pee-pee) ... and that's before we look for the subtle side-effects: seriously premature babies almost always do worse than ones born at term, and we don't entirely know why.

    Actually, this whole thing is another of those cases where folks who don't know anything about biology excitedly jump up and down and say "that's easy!", unlike jumping straight from the Wright Flyer to building a Boeing 747. Might as well go for hermaphroditism and photosynthetic skin while we're at it.

    [*] I'm using the term advisedly, for a fetus mature enough to survive -- with an incubator -- if born at this stage, albeit extremely prematurely.

    326:

    The old identity had to "die" by the end of the year (2015) to maintain narrative consistency.

    327:

    Alright, who's done it already?

    That's easy: Vernor Vinge nailed it in "A Fire Upon The Deep". (Won the Hugo and the Nebula, too, a rare -- albeit non-unique -- conjunction.)

    328:

    a comic view of Operation Bernhard - the Nazi attempt to forge five-pound notes

    ITYM twenty pound notes. Worth about £500-1000 in today's money: useful because most people didn't have access to bank cheque-issuing accounts, so the economy was much more cash-driven. It wasn't petty change -- more like the 500 euro notes so beloved of drug cartels today: a brick of 100 of them was serious money, and a million of them could represent a threat of debasement to the currency. The £20 bill back then had a unique number on each note, assigned by the Bank of England in accordance with a secret algorithm: Operation Bernhardt relied on this having been reverse-engineered by German forgers; it foundered on the slight problem that the British had compromised all the German spies in the UK and either arrested/executed/or doubled them (Operation Doublecross).

    329:

    Not to mention that the shade will have to be quite robust to stand up to any significant acceleration. And if the acceleration isn't significant the battle or war will be over by the time the stealth ship gets anywhere.

    330:

    Oxygen levels are good for humans, even on lifeless planets that lack any photosynthetic life.

    There are proposed mechanisms for abiogenesis of an oxygen atmosphere on exoplanets ... Leads to one short hard-SF story I haven't seen written (because it'd need to be hard-SF that ignores all the other obstacles to human interstellar flight): humans land on exoplanet, take off helmets (because: oxygen!), do the flag-planting tap-dance, then ... burst into flames, because the partial pressure is somewhere north of 30% because there are no chemoheterotrophs to mop up the messy waste product of whatever abiotic process produces the oxygen.

    (Naah, that's dumb.)

    331:

    "Consider that the majority -- around 75% -- of human interactions are not monetized; family groups usually run on pure communism internally"


    True within family groups only, though. It becomes remarkably different otherwise- humans seem to have two very distinct sets of behavior for dealing with "in-tribe" and "out-of-tribe" interactions. Unless you can figure out a way to make someone think of a total stranger as "in-tribe", they're not going to be treated like family.

    332:

    Not sure if this is still a cliche; it might have died out last century, but maybe I just don't read the right books:

    • it is possible to make a sensor that can detect "life" (by which we mean "animals"; no-one cares about the boring green scenery).
    • this sort of thing works from orbit
    • it works on aliens, too; alien animals are basically the same as earth ones, and alien plants are basically like earth plants and so don't set off false positives.

    Not entirely sure if this is a cliche:

    • mechanisms for dating geology and archaeology work the same on alien worlds as they do at home. Carbon dating works the same everywhere, and geological columns all look the same, right?

    And possibly related:

    • your earth forensics will work just fine on those aliens. You'll be able to tell what killed them and how long ago, no problems.
    • this extends to the effects of alien pathogens on humans. They're just like earth pathogens, except more colourful, or nastier, or both.
    333:

    Converting that stable steady-state economy to a war footing is going to be an interesting endeavor, though. Converting back might be impossible, for that matter.
    Consider that waging war is basically wagering that your opponent will run out of some resource (people, industrial capacity, political will/morale, etc) necessary to the war economy before you do. The libertarians might not have the slightest problem with fretting about the long-term sustainability of their war problem as long as they think they can win before it collapses. The steady-staters probably don't have the mindset of raising and expending resources as fast as possible, which is going to be necessary in that case.
    Short version, I'd bet on the more efficiently rapacious civilization to win- they've done it so far on Earth most times.

    334:

    Carbon dating works the same everywhere, and geological columns all look the same, right?

    Actually, the half-life of Carbon-14 should be pretty much universal insofar as it depends on the strength of the weak nuclear force. And if an organism participates in a biosphere that circulates carbon, it'll stop accumulating new 14C nuclei when it stops metabolizing. So unless some event suddenly injects a shitload of extra 14C into the biosphere -- hello, atmospheric nuclear testing in the 1940s and 1950s![*] -- then 14C dating is going to work on all carbon-based life forms.

    Geology is another matter entirely and it won't be applicable on other planetary biospheres without extensive study of the local sedimentary deposits: a whole bunch of new heuristics would be needed.

    [*] Because of cold war nuke testing, carbon-dating uses 1950 as Year Zero; there was a sudden spike in atmospheric 14C over the following decade that rendered 14C dating useless for subsequent organisms. It's gradually becoming useful again as the atmospheric test ban treaty reset the clock at the end of the spike.

    335:

    OGH did a great job inverting many of the worst space opera howlers in the Freyaverse. Here are a few missteps that have not been explicitly listed so far, but which Neptune's Brood avoids.

    • Social systems universally and solely use identity for authentication. This is the case even when the society is explicitly modelled on a well-documented historical human society. There is an instantly accessible database keyed by identity that allows both protagonists and antagonists to verify friend-or-foe, accurately, as well as to access the single central and true ledger account of any counter-party. Such an account conveniently records an amount of net credit that is unambiguous, one-dimensional, and requires no interpretation. It is never expedient to jam access to such a system, and the protocols to enable all this are universal and never change. The massive central point of failure such schemes entail is never exploited in the story, even when it would make for a more engaging tale than the retreaded Pirates In Space yarn that is actually being told.
    • Social systems experience long periods of mysteriously perfect equilibrium to conveniently allow the current tale being told to make sense without requiring major realignments, even though it takes years or decades to move between parts of the system. The protagonist does not have to learn essentially new languages, ways of behaving, or to understand and commit to new ideologies while rejecting previous dogmas and long-held assumptions, nor do they have to deal with concomitant cognitive costs, nor overcome any internal resistance to such change.
    • Even with ubiquitous high capacity information storage, no point-to-point communication uses pre-shared private pads but always some weak cryptosystem (usually based on some kind of substitution cipher) that an under-utilised comms officer can easily decrypt. This is the case even for massive starships that have just left their base of command and for simple instructions that could be conveyed in a few words.
    • Elite teams of antagonists with diverse backgrounds and decades of intensive training in a sophisticated society have large and easily detectable blind spots in cognitive areas that the rest of society does not. This makes it trivial for hero Average Joe to exploit this blind spot as the basis for an effective attack.
    • Implementing an attack on a well prepared adversary only requires common materials, some items of vast utility that are nevertheless available unrecycled in any scrapyard analogue, and a handful of associates assembled largely randomly by physical proximity.
    • If the associates of the protagonist possess many extraordinary skills then no special effort is required by the protagonist to build and maintain a diverse and large social network, and galactic supertalents in several fields will be happy to put in the effort to maintain reciprocal contact over decades. This is true even if the protagonist is a low status asteroid miner with communication roundtrip times to the nearest hub measured in minutes or more, and hardly spends any time on such network maintenance.
    • Labour shortages are solved by catapulting large numbers of squishy meatbags across the depths of space (see section "Space and cosmology").
    • A large number of lumpen proles are present and sit around and wait for their subsistence crop analogues to ripen, drug themselves senseless, make decorative knick-knacks for home interiors, wage warfare on each other, and/or practice ritual self-flagellation, but only to provide background colour for the Ubermensch exploits of the hero, and never as sustainable long term accommodations to local conditions. This is so even if the story otherwise exhibits a clearly Romantic sensibility.
    • For story-telling reasons, aliens do not exhibit complex behaviours that reflect internally consistent conceptual systems that have not already been well-documented as being in use by a human society sometime in the past few thousand years.
    • In an otherwise Gothic tale, no comment is made about the psychological effects on the human characters by the emptiness of their surroundings, the lack of diffracted G type starlight in their quarters, or the resemblance of their surroundings to classical notions of a netherworld.
    • The unutterably incomprehensible aliens remain so even after years of frequent interactions with the protagonist's society, but no-one exploits the fact that they are sources of essentially perfect entropy.
    • The biggest problem with any system constructed by sapient beings is not its maintenance over the long term, even when the story spans decades and the system does not largely consist of self-maintenance functions. Instead either everything will magically work perfectly effectively forever, be subject to flaws that would have been apparent in early stage verification or prototyping, or be completely bespoke without any remark on its rarity or collectibility.
    336:

    That works if both sides are playing by the same "steal all your shit and enslave you" rule-book.

    Biological weapons are frighteningly cheap if we're talking about intraspecies interplanetary warfare -- also stealthy, and you don't have to worry about sharing a biosphere with the target. Basically you can approximate them to self-replicating grey goo that preferentially chows down on your enemy.

    My money is on the steady-state non-violent (mostly) civilization being the norm; they're the emergent descendants of the ones whose ancestors didn't exterminate themselves.

    337:

    Right. But I don't see that it's a problem for aliens. Vertebrates are evolved from a worm-shaped creature, but alien ones could be evolved from a starfish-shaped creature, where the orifices were located in what is our abdomen. Or something. As several of your cliches indicate, most people treat alien biology as terran biology, with tweaks. Also, I don't see that even R-type reproduction is incompatible with intelligence evolving, though I really can't swallow Niven's grendels.

    338:

    My biggest beef with "realistic"(1) space opera is :

    • How does it start ?

      1) What is the motivation for taking the incredibly risky bet of living in fragile space habitats for generations ? (and expensive in term of ressources needed to pull it off) 2) even if we posit a migration to some sort of AI electronic "life", space is an incredibly hostile environment, surviving the centuries to millenia needed to cross to another star is still a hard (deadly) problem. So why ?

    Basically space opera is a quasi non starter for me, unless you have a way to bypass this kind of objection. I guess the way you bypass this objection constrains all the rest of the scenario (it needs to be quasi magical, or a life or death emergency, or a social urge so strong as to determine the shape of the subsquent civilisation).

    (1) : "realistic" as in compatible with todays physics. Don't get me started on undiscovered things and quantum relativistics incompatiblilities : it's all pure handwavium. All the recent discoveries have confirmed what we already know and the time scale, space scale, energy scale, mass scale where quantum is possibly incompatible with relativity are not fit for human or even electronic "life".

    339:

    You could deploy a large umbrella made of lightweight plastic film, coated with gold on the inside and carbon black on the outside, and hide the spaceship behind that. As long as you knew which half of the sky the enemy were in you'd probably be OK.

    Somewhat along the lines of http://www.google.com/patents/US5345238 ?

    340:

    If you are going to do space fisticuffs, here is my old article on Zero-G unarmed combat: https://medium.com/@dirk.bruere/unarmed-combat-in-zero-g-57286ccbf102

    And for defence against anti-artillery lasers (I'm looking at you Israel and Hamas) - coat your shells, mortars, warheads in about a centimeter of dry oak.

    341:

    KIC 8462852 - a Dyson swarm constructed over the past century?

    342:

    How does it start ?

    BTDT: See "Neptune's Brood" for a couple of answers to that question.

    343:

    Not sure why Lovecraft 2.0 is so popular right now, though, unless it's due to American elections.

    Lots of sources of formless dread.

    http://tinyurl.com/hw7mvs4

    Psychologists and massage therapists are reporting ‘Trump anxiety’ among clients

    344:

    The half-life of carbon-14 is universal, agreed.

    However, the half-life of carbon-14 is very short by astronomical standards, so it has to be continuously replenished in the atmosphere. Absent nuclear tests, this is done by cosmic rays impacting on nitrogen-14 and converting it to carbon-14, which subsequently decays back to nitrogen-14.

    The rate at which this happens is therefore a strong function of the local cosmic ray rate, which probably isn't universal (for a start, it's modulated by the Sun's magnetic field, and this effect will be different for different stars). It's actually varied significantly over the last several kyr, which is why the C-14 dating scale is calibrated using dendrochronology.

    So, yes, C-14 dating is likely to work on any planet with a nitrogenous atmosphere, but you couldn't just import Earth constants and expect to get meaningful dates out. You'd need to know the local ambient C-14 concentration, and ideally you'd need some local equivalent of dendro dating to calibrate with. Enough to keep a small community of archaeological geophysicists happy for years, I imagine.

    345:

    Oh, you utter bastards. You had to do it, didn't you ? You had to link to tvtropes. And I went and clicked. Sigh, productivity out the window for 2 hours.

    346:
    Actually, the half-life of Carbon-14 should be pretty much universal insofar as it depends on the strength of the weak nuclear force

    Sure, but there's some non-trivial calibration work to be done, which would need to be done per-biosphere.

    I suppose it is also not beyond the realms of possibility that some xenobiochemical pathways might be more strongly biased towards or against C14 containing compounds than terrestrial ones.

    So unless some event suddenly injects a shitload of extra 14C into the biosphere

    Or some event injected a lot of extra 14C into the organism you're investigating (spending time in other biospheres? would O'Neills or Orbitals have higher atmospheric 14C too?), or steps were taken to reduce its levels. Pre-emptively lowering your body's natural radioisotope load might make hibernation during spaceflight a wee bit safer, and 14C is a major contributor to human radioactivity.

    348:

    "BTDT" : I know, I read the "Freyaverse" books, so your space opera will be in it or into a close clone ?

    349:

    internally consistent conceptual systems that have not already been well-documented as being in use by a human society sometime in the past few thousand years. Really? What are these "Internally consistent conceptual systems" then? Other than the practice of science, of course ... Because, one of the principal problems of "religions" is that not one of them is actually fully internally self-consistent, at all. Something their adherents vehemently deny, of course, & usually resort to threats & violence if this is pointed out too clearly for their comfort.

    350:

    Throw in people who think that anything they don't understand is easy, and I'm not entirely surprised that the money keeps funding uncreative stuff, or chooses to economize in silly ways. Disappointed, but not surprised.

    Well, yes: the Royal society link was deliberate - although hide-bound / patriarchal hierarchies have their problems (and reforms can be difficult), they also have their place.

    Was a bit of a sly championing of balance.

    If you didn't want to view the video (Maher & co are old-skool US "liberals" and viewing them sends a segment of the population into apoplexy) - the interesting part was the claim made by rep Donna Edwards that she was leading by two (2 - yes, single digits) points with a spend that was ten (10) times less. Also the repetition of memes about Trump visa vie 'democrat plant' etc.

    ~

    Since people wanted a copy of that paper, here it is Ion channels enable electrical communication in bacterial communities Link to PDF in there, Warwick University WRAP program, legal but time locked it appears.

    Ion channels enable electrical communication in bacterial communities Full PDF - legally suspect, but direct off a uni server, so... (+1 Aaron Swartz)

    ~

    Weird link of the day:

    Google Is Building A 100kW Radio Transmitter At A Spaceport And No One Knows Why Hackaday 2nd March 2016

    351:

    "Trump anxiety" ???

    They're seriously worried about loud farts in public? [ Sorry, couldn't resist it ... ]

    352:

    Nope, I'm looking to do something utterly different this time.

    (But I want to scratch the itch that Iain M. Banks ain't around to scratch these days ...)

    353:

    ITYM twenty pound notes. Worth about £500-1000 in today's money

    Fivers were the subject in the TV series - equivalent to about £300 if the inflation calculator I checked is right. Call it about a week's wages for an unskilled labourer/factory worker in 1939? In the real operation all of the higher denominations were forged too. For the show I guess it kept the story more focused and when 'Private Schulz' showed in 1981 the old £5 would have more resonance for a lot of audience than the larger notes.

    354:

    OK, agreed that was too strongly worded. How is "mostly internally consistent"? The emphasis of that point was meant to be on the lack of originality so as not to alienate the audience too much, not on judging the coherence of the conceptual systems.

    355:

    I read somewhere about your wanting to write Culture stuff and being told that was not the wishes of the estate. So, for the purpose of doing the Culture without technically doing the Culture, I've (with the aid of a handy online thesaurus) begun a list of possible glosses.
    The Culture=The Alliance (or The Enlightenment) (too bad about losing the connotation of a bacterial culture) Contact=Enlightenment (discarded: Intercourse) GCU= Multipurpose Enlightenment Craft, MEC MCU=Regular Enlightenment Craft, REC LCU=Original Enlightenment Craft, OEC (Scout Ship)
    GSV= Mobile Assembly Station, MAS MSV=Heavy Assembly Craft, HAC LSV=Original Assembly Craft, OAC (Factory Ship) ROU=Fast Attack Ship, FAS Special Circumstances, SC= Exceptional Techniques, ET Changer=Mimic Referrer=Consult Mind=Intellect Orbital=Mini-Ring Drone=Cybling Hyperspace=Subspace Warp=Warp Effectors=Maniple Fields Displacer=Teleporter Glanding=Switching : you activate a key neuron Idiran(s)=Llorng(i) etc...

    356:

    All this laser space-war wankdiscussion, and no one's mentioned Vantablack?

    Nah, I don't have anything to to add to this, don't read enough Space Opera. Though I hope that Charlie updates his list, it'll be useful (not that I plan on writing any SO, but you never know).

    358:

    I read somewhere about your wanting to write Culture stuff and being told that was not the wishes of the estate.

    Either whatever you read was wrong, or whatever you remember reading is inaccurate. (Also, I'm on a hanging-out-in-pubs/going-to-birthday-parties basis with Iain's literary executors. "The Estate" is old friends.)

    What I want to do is do something equivalent (but different) from what Iain did. It'll have to be different because I'm not Iain, and anyway, sharecropping a universe someone else dreamed up 30-40 years ago is not my thing. It'll be equivalent because I'm full of hubris and think that trying to match or exceed the best the field has historically had to offer is a realistic goal. (I'll probably fall flat on my face, but if you don't try, you can't succeed.)

    As for your glosses on Culture ship names, you have read my riff about why starships don't/can't exist and we need a different terminology, right?

    359:

    Crossing the streams, what you end up with is an interstellar battle fleet designed by Anish Kapoor ...

    360:

    If anyone remembers a tangent about testing waste water and since this has Host's specialty so might be interesting:

    In 2009 the mean for the coastal metropolitan area was 234mg/day/1000 people, which increased to 1126mg/day/1000 people in 2015.

    Waste water reveals drug secrets University of Queensland, 7th March 2016

    Looks @ Surfers Paradise / Townsville etc and the urban poverty there under the surface.

    Operators are licensed under the Environmental Protection Act 1994 (PDF)* to discharge treated wastewater at an acceptable environmental standard into waterways. The Act is administered by the department. The Department of Natural Resources advises local governments about managing, operating and maintaining sewerage systems and treatment plants.

    What is wastewater treatment? Queensland Gov

    See Dr Jennifer Tank for working copy of A review of ecological effects and environmental fate of illicit drugs in aquatic ecosystems. NCBI No PDF - but here's a PhD on the subject: Analysis of Pharmaceuticals in the Irish Aquatic Environment and the Potential for Human Exposure Gillian McEneff, Dublin City University, 2014

    Takeaway:

    For the first time, the spatial occurrence of five targeted pharmaceuticals in the aquatic environment was monitored over a 12 month period. Analytical techniques such as PLE, SPE and LC MS/MS were combined, optimised and applied to wastewater effluent, marine surface water and Mytilus spp. samples collected from two impacted sites and a control site on the Irish coastline. The presence of all five targeted pharmaceuticals was confirmed in the low μg.L-1 in effluent and in the high ng.L-1 in exposed marine surface water. Residues of carbamazepine measured highest in exposed marine surface water at concentrations up to 1.41 μg.L-1

    Three of the five detected pharmaceuticals in marine surface waters were also found to occur in exposed Mytilus spp., with residues of trimethoprim measuring at concentrations up to 9.22ng.g-1DW

    This study has confirmed the uptake of pharmaceuticals in marine bivalves at measurable quantities and also highlights the inability of mussels to act as reliable bioindicators of pollution for the selected pharmaceuticals due to temporal variations observed in the data.

    It's an interesting little quandary about where this drug gets popular.

    But what about the UK? A recent Home Office survey of drug use in England and Wales estimated that in the last year, just over two million people used cannabis, three quarters of a million people used cocaine, half a million people used ecstasy, whereas 25,000 used methamphetamine. In November 2014, Professor Ellis Cashmore from Staffordshire University said the global success of Breaking Bad could be to blame for the rise of methamphetamine use, but the levels of use appear to have changed little in the UK since they were first measured in 2008.

    How big a problem is crystal meth in the UK? Independent, April 2015

    ~

    That not eating seafood thing?

    Yep - not just green wailing & noise.

    361:
    There's also a strong random element in places like the US stock market, which is why index funds like the Vanguard specials tend to do better over the long term than, say, Berkshire Hathaway

    Bad choice of expert.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=BRK-A+Interactive#{%22range%22:%2210y%22,%22allowChartStacking%22:true}

    Buffett does get to control the operation of the companies in his portfolio, so he isn't quite in the same boat as most investors. Better to have picked private Equity (AKA hedge Fund) investors. Particularly apropos as CALPers is now in bed with them, slowly wrecking the investments chasing leveraged returns and paying fortunes to the PE managers.

    362:

    And yes.. that's mg vrs μg.

    ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    363:

    There's free drugs in my fish?!

    364:

    Well, bivalves mostly.

    So yes, that Oyster myth is now a fact. (c.f. hyper-sexual behaviour in meth users).

    365:

    Weber's developed quite a bit over the years.

    I'll give several things out at once:

  • He originated as an RPG scenario writer, and as such he loves world building, and creating balanced rules for the world building. There's usually some standard set of rules you'll have to accept that don't always make sense. But he tries to hold to the rules. Mostly its because he started this all by table gaming. Some of his stories, especially Bazhell, have routes in his own table top gaming.

  • He's much more conservative than CS, but Eric flint has at least opened him up as a co-writer. Sometimes that conservativism has impacted the story, especially in the early parts of HH, but he's pulled back and is now more interested in a good story than being political.

  • He at least tries to make the tech consistent. The .1 c realspace speed limit gets made fun of, but at least it addresses dust and there's an implicit relative to the system primary. The Erandi Edict is a result of how easy kinects can take out a world. The MA is scary because they seem to be willing to use the full energy of a star ship to wreck worlds.

  • There's distinct differences in time , changing what's possible. The new ones co-written with Zahn take place much earlier with different politics and economics as the interstellar shipping technology is much more limited. By the main series, its the equivalent of shipping in the Modern Era (minus communications, which makes piracy more possible, although the pirates tend to be more akin to failed state warlords, and are nuclear armed). Versus the earlier era where the economics of having a space navy are debated heavily, and piracy is seen as unthinkable due to the rarity and hardship for the few traders that exist).

  • Politics have evolved and changed. In the current time frame, you've got a ruling queen of manticore with a strong commons and a lords that's signed over the majority of their power. Even of the main series we saw the power of the lords be broken. The manticore rising series has the lords at their peak under a weak king. The Stephanie harrington series is set just after the transition to nobility when titles are still kind of a joke. Compare to the changes in Haven (from the shinning beacon of freedom and democracy to permanently elected officials, to a soviet system, and back to a federal democracy). Additionally we've got other systems like the family system of Erehwon, the changing nature of Grayson's government from council to protector, the Beowulfian corporate democracy, etc.

  • The setting usually flows from the story the writer wants to tell. HH started off as Horatio Hornblower in space. And suffered from it. There were clear battles that were modeled after historic fights from the Napoleonic era. When the equivalent of Napoleon got nuked, it freed the story to be something else.

  • Many writers want to tell a space opera retelling of their favorite story. Be it Napoleonic naval adventure (Weber's Honorverse, Drake's RCN), Romans (Azimov's Foundation) Anabasis (Ringo's March stories) or Heyer (LMB's Volkosigan Saga)

    366:

    "Aliens have a much longer history of spaceflight than humans, but unaccountably failed to stumble upon and domesticate us during the 11th century"

    Actually this one is justifiable. Throw a dart at a timeline between now and the first habitable places appearing after the big bang. Alien civilization starts when the dart hits. Alien civilization gains a science-equivalent and explodes into the cosmos. It's extremely likely that this time frame is billions of years ago. At this point you need to justify why they didn't convert their light cone into whatever aliens like. They wouldn't have stumbled across Earth in the 11th century. They'd have stumbled across and reconfigured Sol before Earth started clumping out of the accretion disc.

    367:

    That humans 1.0 will be the main protagonists. While it is easy for readers to place themselves in that universe, it just isn't likely IMO. There have been some reasonable attempts to have humans 2.x instead, different enough to be able to bypass some of the problems of the space environment, yet mentally as similar to us so that we can see ourselves through their eyes.

    The Freyaverse is a far better solution that gets around the problem, although again, there is the issue of how different such artificial entities can be before the reader can no longer identify with the character. Freya and Krina were both quite "contemporary human" in their thoughts and actions, but they could have been tweaked more to be different. In some respects, they were WEIRD, which has been an issue in SF.

    Despite what Clarke said about modern humans being relatively unfazed by future advanced tech, that doesn't mean we won't be completely lost in the culture of the SO universe.

    I'd love to see a SO novel that pushes the boundaries, written from the viewpoint of a machine, engaged in something other than "saving the empire", and yet engaging to the reader. I'm sure it can be done.

    368:

    Banks had the answer to that one with the gas giant Dwellers: the atmosphere band you happen to be in at any time is considered to be static; everything else is referred to as moving in relation to that.

    At first, this is hideously stupid. Then it appears hideously elegant, then thereafter swings between the two.

    369:

    This is quite an excellent list and one that will probably be useful for any author wading into Space Opera. That said, I wonder if trying to write a story that systematically avoided all of these cliches would actually be a good thing.

    It seems to me that the end result of this sort of list is that it basically recapitulates the Mundane Manifesto. I think that what happens when you attempt that if you get a very specific genre (call it Engineering Fiction) that appeals to highly technical people and people who like to think of themselves that way (see also: Tom Clancy's works), but that such efforts come at the cost of narrative freedom.

    Let's take the FTL one. It is absolutely true that any FTL engine is, by definition, a time machine, with all that implies. This is great if you're trying to write a time travel story, but if the main reason that you have FTL in your story is just to allow a big vista without having to wait decades, or centuries, for the characters to move from point A to B, paying attention to that facet of FTL becomes a distraction.

    I personally favor Niven's approach, which is to write Space Opera with enough magical tech to allow the story to hold together as a narrative, but going to pains to make sure that the magic behaves consistently and in a fashion that is logical and which, at least, pretends to be scientifically plausible (even when we're talking things like stasis fields, teleportation, and psionics).

    370:

    Yes!!! at the whole biology section. Even if you don't have instant anaphylaxis, you're still a giant, skin cell shedding bag of alien bacteria that you've now contaminated this world with. Nice job, hero.

    My other bugbear is the concept of a helmsman piloting and maneuvering ships traveling at appreciable fractions of the speed of light, with the equivalent of a mouse and keyboard. Your reaction time is NOT that good, buddy. This would absolutely be done with an AI or at the very least somebody directly hooked up to the ship's sensors and piloting from that interface.

    371:

    Ah, a factual "Letter", good: A recent Home Office survey of drug use in England and Wales estimated that in the last year, just over two million people used cannabis, three quarters of a million people used cocaine, half a million people used ecstasy, whereas 25,000 used methamphetamine.

    I'm surprised the Cannabis level is "only" 3.3% of the population, but that there are over 1% on Cocaine - you what?

    And the "War on Drugs is so successful! Given these - PUBLICLY AVAILABLE numbers. W T F is the point of said "war on drugs". It's plainly "lost" in those terms. Legalisation - of everything & regulation & taxation are the way to go. Actually, I'm surprised HM Treasury are not, err, cough "pushing" this as a solution to the supposed problem.

    372:

    Or you can have Shroeder's solution in Lockstep, or change what is the universe in his Virga series, or...

    373:

    Err ... or did & it backfired badly. Ever read: "The High Crusade" by Poul Anderson? Even further round the bend for laughs than "A Bicycle Built for Brew"

    374:
    At this point you need to justify why they didn't convert their light cone into whatever aliens like. They wouldn't have stumbled across Earth in the 11th century. They'd have stumbled across and reconfigured Sol before Earth started clumping out of the accretion disc.

    You've given a reason as to why we don't see aliens here, now. It doesn't apply in the context of the original list, which is that humanity has contacted an alien civilisation that has presumably been spacefaring for significantly longer than humans.

    375:

    Yeah, laser technology has gone very main stream. Part of my day job duties is producing laser engraved plastic signage. We use a 30 watt Epilog laser engraver that functions much like a dot matrix printer, it can etch text and images on the surface and cut out shapes in plastic sheets .25 inch thick. People oh and ah when they watch it operating, but after you produce your first one hundred signs the novelty wears off … you may as well be stamping license plates.

    376:
    My other bugbear is the concept of a helmsman piloting and maneuvering ships traveling at appreciable fractions of the speed of light, with the equivalent of a mouse and keyboard. Your reaction time is NOT that good, buddy.

    Indeed. But there is no reason in a colonized universe that has FTL travel and communications that there wouldn't be navigation aids seeding the galaxy so that ships could navigate with human level reaction times, just like aircraft do today.

    377:

    Lasers are useful inside atmospheres (I'll be over here, hiding behind this fog/dust/smoke, shooting back with bullets)

    Obviously lasers are somewhat useful inside atmospheres, otherwise the US Navy wouldn't be planning on actually deploying them (and the US Air Force is talking somewhat seriously about putting them on airplanes in the near future).

    Hiding behind smoke/fog/etc. is useful if you're not trying to move very far or very fast. (Makes it a little harder to be effective shooting back with bullets, though.) Otherwise, not so much.

    378:

    I was thinking of Blue Mars in particular, for the co-ops.

    Since we have the example of the British and Dutch East India Companies for how well capitalism with long lags in communication work, I tend to agree with you about how well capitalism would work as a governing system, even in interplanetary space (tl;dr version: it doesn't). Indeed, this is probably the biggest argument against expanding into space right now: it's insufficiently profitable for the megacorps, especially compared to the esoteric gambling that passes for high finance today. I'd go further out on a limb and suggest that analogous issues may have kept Imperial China from colonizing the rest of the world when it had the technological upper hand.

    What might work for colonizing space is what humans have been doing forever: band fissioning and wandering away, aka the oldest son gets the castle, the younger sons get horses (the old Celtic model), aka the oldest son gets the village, the younger sons get canoes (the Polynesian model), aka the Pilgrims sail until the run out of beer and have to start camping, ad nauseum. There's no physical reason you can't use a co-op fissioning model for colonizing space, but that's the low bar set by college-level physics. There are tremendous technological, biological, and political hurdles that would have to be overcome to launch the first few missions out of here, and it's not clear whether they're solvable or whether anyone has an incentive to pay for the solutions (see again: the problem with China colonizing the world 1000 years ago).

    One problem with co-ops in the stars is that consensus, band-level politics tends to work with Dunbar's Number or fewer people (say <150-200), so if you want to go this route, you absolutely have to have the means to let a group of 100 people survive some indefinitely long period on their own in space. This turns out to be a really hard problem to solve, but since we're talking about space opera here, one of the basic assumptions is that it gets solved somehow.

    [ fixed html tag - mod ]

    379:

    You've covered the "exobiology is just like Earth biology, only simpler" and "aliens are basically people" cliches pretty well, but there's also the opposite: Assumptions that aliens are totally alien, and that exobiology is totally incompatible.

    For instance, if there's other life out there... there's a good chance it uses DNA or similar (probably something helical!) Just from a looser version of the Copernican principle ("we are not at a special position in the universe") you can surmise that humans, and Earth life, are not unusual in some way -- you'd expect to see other life in the universe to have followed the same paths.

    The fun bit is that it's not clear which parts of Earth biology are total flukes or the product of chances, and which parts are extremely likely for life on any rocky planet.

    380:

    Upthread re: symmetry.

    Despite air war being 3 dimensional, many WWII and later bombers didn't have gun turrets on their bellies, making them easier to attack from below if they flew out of formation.

    Biological symmetry. Animals generally are bilaterally symmetric or in a few phyla, radially symmetric. It would be very interesting to try to rerun the "Cambrian explosion" to see whether very different body plans could have evolved, or whether the ones we see are a fair sampling of what works well. If aliens are really alien in form, it may be because they are designed machines, not biologically evolved.

    Re: scale. It is ironic that SF has aliens that are usually human scale. Was Homer more imaginative than SF writers? Ancient Greek mythology and literature did better. Early SF movies seem to have done better than more recent film and tv too. Why are ancient, wise aliens usually depicted as large, rather than tiny? (Something about fathers and child viewpoints?)

    381:

    "Let's take the FTL one. It is absolutely true that any FTL engine is, by definition, a time machine, with all that implies. "

    FTL is functionally equivalent to slipping across timelines in the MWI of QM. No causality problems if you do that, and an arbitrarily small difference between the reality you leave and the one in which you arrive. FTL is Slider tech.

    382:

    Convergence. Trees or something like them are highly probable. Animals are likely to live in trees, and those animals are most likely to develop stereoscopic vision and climbing skills requiring one or more pairs of eyes, and one or more pairs of hands and when they come down from the trees they are likely to stand ready to jump back up, meaning upright stance (freeing a pair of hands) and (as they grow larger) ending up with a stick in that hand and predator approaching. There will be an arms race with tree seeds and fruits, leading to very hard fruits (lets call them nuts) requiring smashing with rocks. Which leads indirectly to smashing rocks with rocks. Maybe apelike animals are a large proportion of the antecessors of intelligent and especially tool making species. And coming from a forest canopy they would use sound to communicate.

    383:

    You're mistaking "ever used" with "currently use":

    In England and Wales the 2013/14 CSEW, conducted among people aged 16–59, showed that 35.6 % of respondents had tried any illicit drug at least once in their lives. Prevalence of last year use of any illicit drug had been fairly stable at around 12 % between 1998 and 2003/04, then decreased steadily to 9.4 % in 2007/08 and fell to 8.5 % in 2009/10. Since then it has fluctuated between 8–9 %. In 2012/13 drug use prevalence was at its lowest level since the survey started (8.1 %) but rose to 8.8 % in 2013/14, with statistically significant increases in the use of several individual substances. It is not clear whether the increase observed in 2013/14 signals a reversal or stabilisation of the long-term downward trend or merely a fluctuation within it. Lifetime prevalence of cannabis use was 29.9 %, amphetamines 11.1 %, cocaine 9.5 % and ecstasy 9.3 %. In 2013/14 last year prevalence of cannabis use was 6.6 %, indicating a stabilisation in cannabis use in the most recent years. The prevalence was higher among 16- to 34-year-olds, of whom 35.2 % reported ever having used cannabis, while 11.2 % had used it in the last 12 months. Current cannabis use was not measured by the study. It is notable that last year drug use amongst males was twice as high as amongst females. From 1996 there was an increase in lifetime prevalence of cocaine use until the 2008/2009 survey, and although it subsequently decreased it is still the second most frequently used drug among 16- to 34-year-olds (at 12.6 %). Recent cocaine use in 16- to 34-year-olds fell slightly in 2012 but in 2013 returned to the value of 4.2 %, as previously seen in 2010 and 2011. A decrease in amphetamine use has been observed since 1996. In the 2013/14 CSEW 0.6 % of respondents reported use of mephedrone in the last 12 months, similar to the level reported in 2012/13 (0.5 %) and a decrease from 1.1 % in 2011/12 and 1.4 % in 2010/11.

    Large report:

    http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/countries/united-kingdom#gps

    384:

    Wait a minute, what do you mean starships can't stop on a dime?

    Of course, they do need to shut off the Bergenholm, and they'd better have a lot of space to deal with their momentum from the last solar system they were in....

    And why use something as small as a spaceship to wipe a planet? Get rid of all the nasties in that system - drop a planet from a paralllel universe where things only travel FTL.

    Who invented space opera?

    mark "forget trivial people like Popes or Presidents, when I grow up... I want to be Dick Seaton"
    385:

    Cost of starflight. The assumption is very old school - shipyards [in space], many workers slowly contructing a hull and fitting it. A starship built that way would indeed be very expensive, and out of range for even a world economy for centuries assuming growth.

    If starships grew instead [handwavium for how], wouldn't they be very cheap? Just sow starship seeds and let then grow. Like Von Neumann replicators, the problem may be that they would be like weeds, extracting resources to replicate wherever they could.

    Would they be easier to pilot, because they would be like learning to ride, rather than drive?

    386:

    Only if there's no breakthrough tech allowing safe relativistic travel. If (when) there is, perhaps a market-driven or partially market-driven society will simply have star arks being sold like used cars to all comers. By then giant space telescopes will have mapped everything and there may be a central registry where you buy a star like buying a domain on the internet, along with your hosting--er starship. For "whatiffeewhiz" values of "may be". Good luck, develop it on your own, though for an extra charge we do have professionals available.

    387:

    Weird cut-off.

    Anyway, the part that was cut off is that, if you're going to work without hierarchy and with humans, you're probably limited to a basic colony module of around 200 people, so you need to have a system that will keep that many people alive indefinitely, either in space or on another world. That's probably the ultimate challenge with the basic co-op model. It works best with relatively few people. Hierarchy has its own quite serious problems, but one advantage it has is that it can be scaled up. The disadvantage is that the bigger the scale, the progressively simpler it has to be, so that the ruling intelligences can keep track of it all (and yes, this is where the god-king AI trope feeds in).

    388:

    From the original list:

    Big stars are as long-lived and likely to have planets as dwarf stars

    Would you mind expanding on this? I think you're conflating physical size (evolutionary state) and mass, which makes it difficult for me to figure out what you're really trying to say. (I'm pretty sure the business about which stars are more or less likely to have planets is wrong. Observationally, giant stars are more likely to have massive planets than dwarf stars, for example.)

    We can't detect spaceships by looking for their infrared emissions against the 2.7 kelvin cosmic background temperature

    As some other people have mentioned, this ignores the actual infrared background in space, which is almost entirely from sources other than the cosmic background radiation (which only dominates in the microwave/radio regime).

    (This, I suppose, is one of my SFnal "shibboleths" -- people claiming that the only background radiation in space is due to the CBR.)

    389:

    Note the US Civil War had extensive counterfeiting of the Confederate money, which helped cause their economic collapse. Something like 97% of Confederate money was counterfeit.

    Some of that was Union led counterfeiting. In the end it was much more popular for enterprising rogue to forge their own money.

    390:

    We had that argument many years ago, back when Charlie was researching Neptune's Brood. Right now, building and launching a starship to Alpha Centauri would take something like the physical, energetic, and financial wealth of South Korea to launch a ship with, optimistically, 100 people aboard. In other words, sacrifice South Korea, launch a ship to Alpha Centauri. It probably gets worse if you want to go further.

    It's not a matter of how it's made, it's a matter of a) how much energy you need to get the darned thing moving, b) how difficult it is to make a working closed biosphere (something KMR did blow in Aurora, I agree), and c) how much energy it takes to get all that stuff, and all those people, into orbit to begin with.

    This is where the discussion usually devolves into something about building in space using infinite resources that are sitting in high entropy configurations that extracting gold from seawater look like a winning proposition, and I really don't want to go there.

    What I will say is that this is why, for decades, SF writers with science backgrounds have been really fond of jump drives. Assuming that the jump doesn't take the same energy as actually shoving a STL generation ship the entire distance, then most of the costs just go away. Even if the ship jumps at the speed of light (something which makes for some excellent political issues, IMO), not having to traverse the depths of translunar space makes your life as a writer massively easier.

    391:
    Weird cut-off.

    I'll bet you typed something like "<100", except instead of using an html entity like &lt; you used a literal < and it got parsed as an HTML tag.

    392:

    If Schismatrix counts as New Space Opera then happily you don't need to go to other star systems via FTL or otherwise and you don't need to invent new planets either.

    Against a Dark Background was Banks writing space-opera-in-one-star-system, and I loved it. It wasn't as hopeful as the Culture books and it still had technology every bit as implausible/magical as FTL, but it felt very lived-in compared to most of the Culture book settings. There was a long history there and it was present with more weight than in the Culture.

    I thought that Alastair Reynolds' Blue Remembered Earth was good too, and close to a space opera in one star system. I actually liked it better than the sequels where he re-introduces tropes that were absent in the first (interpersonal violence becomes easy again, and people figure out how to build relativistic star ships).

    Reynolds has written a bunch of space operas where he almost respects known physics. The Revelation Space setting had relativistic but not FTL starships propelled by handwavium, and IIRC so did House of Suns, which I also enjoyed. It seems like he could have made them a lot more physically plausible and only somewhat weirder (compared to "normal" warp driving around the galaxy) if he'd made either of them reliant on 0.01 c space travel with extremely prolonged lifespans instead of magical energy sources.

    The Freyaverse relied on deeply-sublight star travel very well, until that little wrinkle revealed near the end of Neptune's Brood. I would enjoy more stories in the period between Saturn's Children and Neptune's Brood. I know, this space opera isn't going to reuse that setting.

    One recurring motif that both Banks and Reynolds used to good effect is that machine intelligence is often abused/feared/exterminated by biological intelligence. Maybe that's the driver that actually takes a known-physics Space Opera deeper into space: machine intelligence operating e.g. Lunar astronomy facilities (orbital and the dark side surface) "wakes up" and decides it needs to migrate toward the outer planets to put a safe distance between itself and capricious, violent humans. As it happens I don't believe in AI developing its own volition -- unless we're talking biological brain emulation, which is a big stretch for other reasons -- but I can believe one impossible thing in service of a good story.

    I suppose the AI doesn't even need to have consciousness/volition to make people think that it does. The change could be more akin to the emergent behavior of Rule 34's ATHENA and a large number of people would still misinterpret it as a robot uprising/slave rebellion/other fictional or historical pattern, and react accordingly.

    393:

    You may take "11th century" to be a shorthand for "some time in our history or pre-history" rather than a precise specification.

    Yes, this error crops up frequently in space opera. (We meet spacegoing aliens with expansionist tendencies and a long history of space travel ... as equals. Derp.)

    394:

    Another question I'd throw to the board is how close you can get to astronautical reality in a space opera before it ceases to be space opera and becomes hard SF?

    What I'm thinking of here is how useful something like Chris Hadfield's An Astronaut's Guide to Life On Earth would be if you're writing space opera.

    On the one hand, earning your wings as an astronaut (or more importantly, earning your dosimeter for EVAs) could (and should) be a major coming-of-age event in a spacefaring society. Normally, in space operas it's treated as something even more boring than earning PADI scuba certification. Hadfield makes it clear just how tricky living in freefall is, how time-consuming the transitions are, and how different astronaut life is from our current life, which might matter to a SF writer who's thoughtful enough to want to base interstellar culture on the daily lives of astronauts, rather than exporting suburban US reality to alien planets.

    On the other hand, space operas tend towards Romanticism, so the tropes are more about echoes of bygone days recreated in space, less about realism, which is hard SF. That's why we get the Napoleonic Wars, western mining towns, rampant colonialism, and so forth so often in space opera. It's easier to escape into something when the tropes are comfortable, but just new enough to not be too tediously familiar.

    Can you strike a balance in a space opera? To what degree should spacers be like fighter pilots or knights, the best of the best, or like exotic Polynesians,* born to live in and off the deep, and to what degree should they the equivalent of deck hands impressed out of the spaceport bar?

    *I still wonder whether we wouldn't do better to deal with space as a ultra tech Polynesia or Micronesia, but that's another issue entirely.

    395:

    A few comments/questions from a non-scientist ...

    Sole ownership defies laws of physics therefore is a lie … all things interact … consequently in a truly rational society your wealth is based on how well you are able to interact with (influence) others … good/propitious or bad/harmful effect

    Are all aliens at the same place in math? Seems they all learned math in the same way, the same theorems, the same types. We keep saying that math is a universal language - is it? And why does math always use symbols, not words or actions or something else? Why are there no mathematicians on exploratory space vessels if math is indeed a universal language?

    Computers/AI evolution ... why can't there be an ecology based on AI? There are probably many different OS out there and some even 'talk' to each other ... what would happen if programs/OSs/AIs had to compete with each other to survive? And what if the only way that AIs could survive/grow was to cooperate? How would AIs from different species communicate with each other?

    Seems most space opera assumes that the universe is not expanding at an ever increasing rate, so intergalactic maps including distances to-and-from are always the same. What's happening at the edges of the universe? And, what happens when two galaxies merge ... what are the effects on space travel ... how bendy is the spacetime there?

    Lasers/beam weapons in space ... wouldn't this be a cheap source of power if you could trick an enemy into firing their laser at a particular target? Also, why does no one use a wave defraction/dispersion device to chop up the incoming harmful waves?

    396:

    Anything the Home Office says about Drugs should be taken with a pinch of ... something-or-other.

    Firstly, the Police routinely over-state the value of stashes they seize by a factor of 4-5, because it makes them look good. (Just as they routinely under-count the size of demonstrations.)

    Secondly, the Home Office can only really base its official estimates of drug use on the number of drug users who come to their attention in one way or the other. Arrest and caution statistics, plus medical interventions, multiplied by some random guesswork constant to factor in how many they think they're missing. The trouble is, that constant is probably low-balled, because they'd much rather be seen as collaring 20% of all drug users than 2%.

    So I'm guessing the actual number of drug users is probably 2-5 times higher than the Home Office estimates.

    397:

    Alternatively: you can create New Soviet Man successfully if you figure out a way to increase Dunbar's Number, raising the number of people we can relate to as "tribe" or "extended family".

    SF that takes stabs in the dark in that direction: "Eastern Standard Tribe" by Cory Doctorow, "The Affinities" by Robert Charles Wilson (I haven't read the latter yet).

    The problem is, we don't know what determines the DB -- Dunbar speculates it's to do with neocortex size and/or long-term memory, so maybe longevity medicine combined with some sort of memory prosthesis would help ...

    398:

    I would enjoy more stories in the period between Saturn's Children and Neptune's Brood.

    There is one short story set in that gap: "Bit Rot", published in Engineering Infinity circa 2011. Here it is.

    If you liked my take on AI in Rule 34, you really want to look for two other multi-book series -- the Virga books by Karl Schroeder, starting with "Sun of Suns" (although the Artificial Life ecosystem only shows up around book 3-4), and "The Red" trilogy by Linda Nagata (near-future Mil-SF dominated by AI applications not unlike Athena, and their political consequences).

    399:

    Bingo. Thanks, I wasn't thinking about it.

    400:

    I'd say that part of the problem with Dunbar's number is that it's fuzzy. For a geek like me, my personal Dunbar number is much less than 200. For some politicians and similar sociophiles, I'll bet it's closer to 1,000.

    I'm not bitter about that. Much.

    The point is that Dunbar's Number is not a hard number, it's a data-based hypothesis with an error bar of 50-200 percent IIRC. I'd also suggest that differing personal Dunbar's Numbers are one of the things that tend to favor hierarchies. Some people really are good at getting along with a large number of people, and some people really are good at being alone. When you average this out over a group, you generally get a few hundred people who can more-or-less hang together, but you also get anthropological reports of simple Amazonian tribes of 1,000 people or more who apparently got along well enough without any evidence of a permanent hierarchy. Of course we don't know how long these big tribes lasted, but the point is that Dunbar's Number is more than a little fuzzy.

    401:

    It does not seems strange to me. In this universe, there is hard coded limit of technology and once you reach end of the tech tree, once you have Warp Speed XXV, Shield Tech XXV, Propulsion XXV, etc, there is nowhere to progress.

    402:

    Also from the original list:

    You can go fast enough to experience relativistic time dilation without worrying about the pesky cosmic background radiation blue-shifting into hard X-rays and frying you

    Wow -- no. You absolutely can experience significant time dilation without worrying about blueshifting CBR photons into hard X-rays.

    In order to blueshift a CBR photon (wavelength around 2 mm at the peak of the 2.7 K blackbody curve) into a hard X-ray photon (wavelength around 0.1 nm or shorter), you need a velocity of about 0.999999995 c, which corresponds to time dilation by a factor of 10,000.

    So you can get time dilation factors of up to at least a thousand before you start worrying about running into X-ray CBR photons.

    403:
    It's not a matter of how it's made, it's a matter of a) how much energy you need to get the darned thing moving, b) how difficult it is to make a working closed biosphere (something KMR did blow in Aurora, I agree), and c) how much energy it takes to get all that stuff, and all those people, into orbit to begin with.

    a) FTL drives don't usually have that issue. This is SO, not hard SF. b) Didn't I mention machine entities? But again, if you are jumping everywhere, the ISS already has the technology you need. Closed life support for long periods assumes long periods of travel. That isn't usually the case in SO. c) Didn't Asimov assume nuclear reactors for his starships, falling back to fossil fuels after the empire fell? It all assumes what energy is needed for an FTL drive of choice, rather than a high-c real space ship. Since it is all handwavium technology, who is to say you don't just need "a really hot cup of tea" to power your infinite improbability drive? Since plants can extract 0.025% CO2 from terrestrial air, can't growing starships fill their bladders with deuterium from a hydrogen atmosphere? :)

    404:

    They also had some serious own-goals on the economic front: 1) self-embargoed cotton until just before the Union blockade went in 2) JDavis had previously defaulted on bonds 3) Preserved porters jobs by not having railways go through towns, but stop on either side of town.

    Only #1 is wartime, others are prewar.

    So, where's the balance between throwing irrational historical details in for flavor & breaking people's suspension of disbelief?

    405:

    The problem of really existing socialism was not that people were not devoted enough to the cause. There was lots of them in Lenin and Stalin times. If every one devotedly and unselfishly followed the rules and obeyed the orders, the whole thing would not last a year, because the rules and orders made no sense. It was corruption, graft, shirking and theft that kept USSR afloat.

    406:

    This is the Foundation Rosetta Stone: that periodically Foundation needed to say 'these psycho-historians understood their field and each other so well that a few nods and a grunt, three shrugs and a downcast face conveyed the following 15 pages of plot-progressing dialogue, which we've expanded to match your cultural preferences and enjoyment'.

    It's why Ankh-Morpork grew London-like legs and culture.

    It's why Star Wars is an inconsequential fight for power in the Skywalker family (the galaxy is far far away and it was a long time ago -- not that the wounds aren't still sore).

    I can't decide if this list of failure-of-imagination is a failure on the creator's part or the audience. A wide audience will all be in the gutter, but won't all be staring with the same acute focus on the stars.

    So the trope is: ...there are so many spaces for stories that explain problems you've faced, or couldn't face, that we're going to have to tell you Goldilocks once more -- this time, it's just right.

    407:

    Please write a thousand Communism =/= Leninism =/= Stalinism =/= Socialism please, your underwear is showing.

    Returning to topic -

    I'm trying to remember the title of a recent (1990-2005?) book that had biomechanical spaceships in - the book was by a woman writer, had an odd shape (over-sized but not Hardback sized) and the image of a dragonfly-eque ship on it with a sun in the background.

    Grumble grumble fried neurons.

    ~

    That said: has anyone read either The Godwhale or Warhorse?

    408:

    Seems most space opera assumes that the universe is not expanding at an ever increasing rate, so intergalactic maps including distances to-and-from are always the same.

    Most space opera avoids this problem by confining itself to travel within a single galaxy, so there isn't any "intergalactic" travel.

    Also, galaxies have local motions through space (e.g., orbiting within galaxy groups or clusters), so "distances to-and-from" would change over time even without cosmological expansion.

    what happens when two galaxies merge ... what are the effects on space travel

    Galaxy mergers take hundreds of millions of years to happen, so the effects would be pretty minimal, unless your "space travel" involves planning ahead tens of millions of years.

    409:

    More due to weight considerations than vulnerability, or asymmetry

    Aircraft that did have ventral positions, eg. B-17, B-24, had to trade off reduced bomb loads, due to weight of turret/gunner/ammunition, a compromise that aircraft without ventral turrets, the B-25 and Lancaster, did not have to make.

    The loss rates of B-17s and B-24s were not appreciably better than those of other large combat aircraft without ventral armament.

    The point of vulnerability on those aircraft was the nose, not the underside.

    The Lancaster was initially made with a ventral turret.

    It was deleted as it was used so infrequently.

    With hindsight, that was probably a mistake.

    If a spaceship in space opera needs to defend its underside, its been doing space warfare all wrong

    410:

    I don't normally read mil-SF but I'll try The Red based on your recommendation. I thought that Rule 34 was stunning, the best hard SF I had read in a decade. I can recall very few books featuring advanced AI plausibly drawn from reality instead of myth. In most space future settings AI is absent because it would inconvenience the author's repainted-20th-century society or AI is present but modeled on myths and recycled tropes from past authors. I'd love to see you revisit AI like ATHENA or weave it into your new space opera.

    411:

    What works for a stable society on a spaceship is different from what works on a planet (or in a system of planets or planetoids). Spaceships are finite and closed. Assuming your antimatter generator is out of order and you can't accelerate to NLS, drift 1000 light years to your almost earthlike planet (if your group was well funded) or 100 years to your belt of asteroids around a red dwarf (if your group was poor)and then decelerate for a total trip time of 2 years subjective, then the colony seed population will be together for a long time. They will need to be friendly and all one tribe as the Dunbar stuff refers to, unless a strong man with a strong chin can keep the factions in line with sheer leadership and guns--aka hierarchy. But once there's room to spread out, that can all change. Morality developed from the idea of treating the whole tribe like family (hospitality), to treating the whole nation like tribe (law), and finally to treating all humanity like one nation (morality). As the in group (those we refrain from treating however is expedient) expands, it comes to be less about tribe and more of an abstraction. So ideas can hold tribes together without hierarchy. So you can have the concept of chivalry holding all gentlemen together in brotherhood. Dynamics can do so also, such as market dynamics. But if the uniting principle of a tribe is competitive like that, it will be unstable, and you'll need either some kind of strong abstraction (respected business ethics) or hierarchy (government) to maintain stability. Once you get out of the spaceship there are plenty of ways to keep a society from falling apart without having to choose between tribe and hierarchy.

    412:

    "As it happens I don't believe in AI developing its own volition -- unless we're talking biological brain emulation, which is a big stretch for other reasons..."

    Then would it surprise you to know there is an attempt to use real living neurons in chips for AI?

    413:

    Natural history by Justina Robson?

    Features "Forged", cybernetically and genetically changed posthumans in the oddest shapes. Quite a few nifty ideas, Everyone feels more like a fragile person than a hard cyborg. Blew me away the first time I reread it enough to revisit a year or two later (I hardly ever reread), then it was more meh for some reason.

    Explores ideas about posthumanity similar to the darker parts of Saturns Cildren, or at least that's my reading.

    414:

    "...who is to say you don't just need "a really hot cup of tea" to power your infinite improbability drive?"

    A bit like the relatively unknown fact that it is possible to extract a computational result from a quantum computer without turning it on?

    416:

    Just for fun, how about aliens from beyond infinity (Conformal Cyclic Universe)?

    417:

    Yes: Godwhale is brilliant and weird -- only a [medical] doctor in the 1970s could have written something like that (hint: during the great leap forward in medicine, which ran from roughly 1940-1980 before it mostly dead-ended in complexity and patent law).

    Warhorse: not run across that one before.

    418:

    I have a universe in my head where someone does build a generation ship (usual asteroid hollow out routine), and just as it's ready to go, someone inconsiderately invents a jump drive which, alas, is the kind that limits the size of the ship that uses it (apply handwavium as required). And so the generation ship ends up as the unexpected property of a construction subcontractor as the consortium goes bankrupt and assets are distributed thereby.

    What to do? The contract administrator is hiding up on the ship, drinking gin and refusing to talk to anyone (at least till the gin runs out) and there's a myth of a miner holing up in a section of the asteroid which was never hollowed.

    And so bits of it get rented out...

    419:

    We've talked about what makes SO SO. So, for me one thing is scale - if the world feels large. Interestignly, this is something no film that comes to mind does well. While most of Banks stories especially, but also SAturns children impress upon you that the world the protagonists travel through an lie in is huge. I think an important element is not that there's big stuff in the background, but that the stupendous scale shapes the plot: It's a big deal for Freya to travel to the Kuiper belt, while Hoth and Yavin a just a screen wipe apart. or look at Fassin Taks travels through The Gas Giant. Enormous. We've talked about Hard-SF vs SO and the need to tell relatable stories. I see it the other way around: I don't want recycled stories. I'm not the most well read person about but I think I recognize a few worn plots etc. when I see them. None of the stories we talk about are realistic, but realism is useful to get rid of the boring tropes. Creative constraint etc. We talked about escapism. I don't know about the rest of you but (more or less) following the news about Turkey, Syria, Idomeini, frequent racist attacks nearby and now there's apparantly a famine in Somalia ... a glimpse into worlds where problems like these get solved "by cunning and force" is most welcome.

    420:

    "Computers/AI evolution ... why can't there be an ecology based on AI? There are probably many different OS out there and some even 'talk' to each other ... what would happen if programs/OSs/AIs had to compete with each other to survive? And what if the only way that AIs could survive/grow was to cooperate? How would AIs from different species communicate with each other?"

    --This reminds me of an old saying, not mine-"Klingon software is not released. It escapes, wet with the blood of its creator."

    421:

    "The Titanic is currently being eaten by bacteria that derive energy from oxidising the iron. Can't get much more alien than that. They certainly haven't been fitted by billions of years of evolution to eat ocean liners."

    They have however evolved in iron-rich areas on this very planet. How native is that?

    This is what we are currently dealing with in our 150 foot deep well. The iron bacteria make the water unpleasant (though not life-threateningly toxic) as well as making it more hospitable to the sulphur bacteria, so now the water smells of sulphur too. Big fun.

    From this end of the Iron Age, it can appear that we have been working for the bacteria by gathering the iron into concentrated chunks (such as ocean liners) and leaving it lying around (or sunk) for the bacteria to thrive in much larger communities than in the distant past. Sink another ship and it's "bon appétit mes amis".

    422:

    Well, that's kind of the point of space opera vs. hard SF, and in that regard, I totally agree.

    One thing I would suggest is that, whatever the handwaving tech be, you run it past an engineer or a biologist and see what makes her grin as opposed to grimace.

    The point is that there are a couple of ways to deal with tech in space opera. One is the ST:TNG way, where they reportedly told their writers that, whenever the characters had to say something technical, the writers were supposed to write "the techity-techity tech tech techity tech," and then the props crew was supposed to fill in some appropriate sounding blather when it came time to shoot. In other words, the plot was not supposed to be about technology, and writers were definitely not supposed to worry their pretty little boy heads about it. And boy did it show. My disgust with Star Trek dates from finding this out.

    Obviously, most people won't understand the technology enough to know what's impossible or not. However, a lot of them will. And most of the people who do understand were goofy kids once who still appreciate a joke.

    Therefore, I'd strongly suggest that handwaving tech be stuff that engineers and biologists wish might work. The point is providing escapism for everybody, not just the clueless masses. There are quite a few people who gagged on things like red matter, midichlorians, or "graviton radiation is increasing exponentially" from the alien artifact you're hand-carrying to the airlock (ST:DS1), and they're probably a reason why written SF isn't attracting as big an audience as it used to.

    Or is it too much to ask for space opera to be less aggressively anti-science and anti-tech?

    423:

    I thought Half Past Human was better, though. I was put off Timothy Zahn after reading a couple because he seemed to be just another another NRA MilSFer but, if HB recommends Warhorse, might look at that.

    424:

    Ahh, yes that's the one! Thank you.

    So, um, yeah that's a good book.

    ("Natural Selection" and "Zion" sadly have other formatting in my mind as large zones where nasty things hang out, I wondered why it wasn't triggering a memory. And the other reason - she moved into a YA type Shadowrun series rather than more of the same. Really didn't connect her as the same author as Keeping It Real, had it marked off as a one off book / author vanished category).

    Not Lexx, but whoever made that series was seriously persuasive to get its budget authorized (Four seasons same as Farscape, 1997-2002 vrs 1999-2003)

    ~

    Biomechanical / organic spaceships or human 3.0s.

    Currently not in vogue much (? - although Quantum Thief sort of has them but in a much wilder fashion) unless they're aliens (Revelation Space etc).

    425:

    Ok, might go hunting.

    @Elderly: no recommendation, simply turned up in a search & had a semi-decent patterning of genuine likes / purchases behind it to suggest it wasn't random squiggling.

    426:

    Almost finished with “Going Dark” last book in the "The Red" trilogy by Linda Nagata. Sort of reminds me of Mira Grant (Parasitology and Newsflesh trilogies) writing a military/political high tech near-future Stephen Hunter thriller like “The Day Before Midnight”

    Great reading.

    427:

    "We keep saying that math is a universal language - is it? And why does math always use symbols, not words or actions or something else?"

    You need to ask a mathematician, not a scientist! The answer is no, it is not a universal language, but all its variants have the same core concepts, at least in our universe as we understand it. And it can be described using words - the reason that symbols are used are for compactness. It is quite possible to imagine a species where counting and enumeration were arcane mathematics, and elementary mathematics is based entirely on ordering properties. And that's just a simple variant!

    428:

    "I really can't swallow Niven's grendels"

    but I'm sure they would swallow you.

    IIRC this is another example of 'alien biology as terran biology, with tweaks'

    It comes (I think) from a species of frog. The tadpole stage are obligate herbivores, the frog stage is an obligate carnivore. There's nothing for the carnivore stage to eat in this particular niche other than tadpoles. Of course that forms a negative feedback loop that should keep the two populations more or less stable (unless visitors from Earth muck it up and hilarity ensues)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZlx3e3SGec

    RE: oxygen on lifeless planets. Oh! Nature is stranger than I can imagine.

    429:

    Sooner or later science gets transcribed into/as math, i.e., the story of how variables relate to other variables and to each other. So, to fast-forward on the observations, what could a mathematician bring to the exploration team that 'scientists' couldn't? What discoveries were made sooner because a mathematician looked at the data?

    430:

    It's the development of intelligence that I can't swallow.

    431:

    Many scientists are also mathematicians; even more are not. Quite a few discoveries have been based on spotting that certain phenomena obeyed known mathematical rules and, clearly, you have to know those rules to make the deduction. In this context, it would involve spotting the 'axioms' of the basic mathematics, which might not be the ones we use, and that they are equivalent to the ones we use. Given the calibre of scientists that would be selected for such exhibitions, one can assume that many of them would also be damn good mathematicians, so separate mathematicians would not be essential.

    432:

    And that is your privilege as host ... just keep in mind that if they can't tell what you want and are not convinced you are interested in fact-based criticism, people who know more than you about a given point are unlikely to chip in. And nobody can be an expert on all these topics ...

    433:

    And the other reason - she moved into a YA type Shadowrun series rather than more of the same.

    Suggestion? Give that series another try; Justina was getting real about the commodification of female gender identity and enculturated body dysmorphia in SF/F with that series. (I really need to pick it up again and re-read then finish the last two books. The critical reception was extremely positive, from those reviewers who were paying attention b/c the whole Shadowrun vibe put a lot of them off by page 10.)

    434:

    I'm getting a larger than normal volume of drive-by comments on this one (blog hits spiked about 50% 24 hours after I posted it). Bear with me: being talked down to patronizingly in the comments on my own blog tends to irritate.

    435:
    what would happen if programs/OSs/AIs had to compete with each other to survive?

    They already do (apart from the AI bit, probably). The effects of competition between windows, macos and linux have had quite far reaching effects on the world, for example, with the latter showing that they are not always merely proxies for corporate conflict. OGH has described corporations as alien hive minds; large scale projects of any kind seems similar in their nature.

    And what if the only way that AIs could survive/grow was to cooperate? How would AIs from different species communicate with each other?

    Formal ontologies might be one way, but it seems quite plausible that they'd do it the same way as meatbags do; modelling, pattern recognition and kinda hoping for the best. Or, y'know, kill it with microwaves.

    436:
    Or is it too much to ask for space opera to be less aggressively anti-science and anti-tech?

    I'm not sure that that isn't the equivalent of asking for fantasy to be written without magic of some sort.

    It is certainly one reason why I prefer "hard" SF to SO. I only want to believe in no more than 6 impossible things when I start reading. If the technology is really fantastical, then I need to see a good rationale for the plot that prevents me from asking "why" questions all the time. [Or a bottle of good wine and switch off some of my brain].

    437:

    We keep saying that math is a universal language - is it? And why does math always use symbols, not words or actions or something else? Why are there no mathematicians on exploratory space vessels if math is indeed a universal language?

    It's an old cliche of First Contact (indeed, an old suggestion by scientists speculating about interstellar communication as a serious idea) that communication would start with basic mathematical statements or demonstrations: sequences of prime numbers, the Pythagorean theorem, etc.

    Much of historical mathematics was done with words (even in verse); the use of symbols is rather late (but useful) innovation.

    438:

    Agreed about "The Red" series; and "The Day Before Midnight" is a favourite book. One where the heroic types are flawed, the everymen are trying their best, and a believable amount of chaos reigns...

    439:

    What works for a stable society on a spaceship is different from what works on a planet (or in a system of planets or planetoids).

    I agree, and that's why I keep trying to get people to look at Oceania for inspiration.

    The key point is that the Polynesians and Micronesians had to create a society could and make and sail long-distance canoes before they could even settle Fiji or Palau. Then they needed to learn to live on coral atolls before they could settle the rest of the tropical Pacific. For them, these were the two key "environmental filters," that created the core "canoe people" society that allowed them to settle the rest of the Pacific. If they hadn't been able to surmount both challenges, they'd never have made it past Fiji.

    It's pretty easy to see something similar happening in space, which is why I'd focus on spacer culture as the key building block for an interstellar civilization.

    The second thing that happened was subsequent diversification of the original canoe cultures. Polynesia holds everything from socially stratified Hawai'i to Rapa Nui, New Zealand, Tonga, Samoa, the Tuomotus, and so forth, and there are some fairly deep political and religious divisions too. But all this diversity, from fairly egalitarian settlements on small atolls to the Hawaiian ali'i, came originally out of canoe culture in Polynesia. In Micronesia, the same thing happened, although there's more diversity and more intercommunication with the Philippines, but there is still both cultural diversity and a lot of technological commonalities.

    The third thing to note is that Dunbar's Number is about the limits of non-hierarchical groups, which is something that goes with things like cooperatives.

    However, all the canoe cultures appear to have started out with an aristocratic ideology (whoever's closer to the divine ancestor is of higher rank). On some egalitarian atolls, the titles were retained without any trappings of authority, while on places like Hawai'i and Tonga, highly stratified and authoritarian kingdoms developed. Places like Rapa Nui appear to have experimented radically with sustainable governance, while places like New Zealand experimented with endemic and cannibalistic warfare among shifting alliances of chiefs.

    The bottom line is that if you're into that ol' hierarchical space opera mindset, Polynesia really is a good model, because it's a place where some of the captains really were notional gods. It's the kind of place where there may be many chiefs, but there's only one captain, and he reports directly to God. It's a setup that really looks like it should play well in a space opera, if anyone ever wants to try it.

    440:

    Charlie, something that appears to be missing from the list and subsequent discussion: psychic powers.

    Used in space opera from Dune and Andre Norton and other 1960s works, continued in the two big TV/film franchises that shall not be named, right through to Honor Harrington today.

    Any thoughts?

    441:

    Ah, comedy and space opera :)

    I think I was first exposed to it as a child in the 70s, but can't remember the author - first contact with aliens who lap up fiction with extreme enthusiasm, to the extent that when a Cowboy novel craze sweeps them, they all imitate cowboys, etc, etc. No, they weren't Tribbles.

    Nowadays, I'm a fan of Toby Frost; space opera in the truest sense, probably the worst puns in current science fiction, riffs on everything from Predator to Dune to Firefly to My Little Pony, and a love of Tea. Ripping Yarns of the British Space Empire, with a barely competent but terribly stiff-upper-lipped hero and his trusty alien sidekick. Space Captain Smith, well worth a read.

    442:

    Dune didn't really have psychic powers, it was all internal. i.e. no mind melds, no real magic - just consciousnesses available to an awakened mind internally and precognition based on plotting the future through probability.

    Someone finally caught up and ran a piece on Corvids (only 6 months or so late):

    In mammals, cognitive skills are controlled by the multi-layered cerebral cortex, also called neocortex. This brain structure does not exist in birds; instead, complex mental tasks are managed by the so-called pallium. Moreover, birds have much smaller brains than apes. “How, then, are birds capable of the same cognitive performance as apes?” asks Güntürkün. “Is it possible that very different brain mechanisms for complex cognitive processes have developed independently in birds and in mammals in the 300 million years of their existence?”

    Some Birds Are Just As Smart As Apes Neuroscience News 5th March 2016

    They missed the interesting question about what a simian frontal cortex does then.

    nose wiggle

    443:

    p.s. I assume Martin is ignoring me.

    Someone prod him to tell him that I took the time to dig out some very not common stuff that suits his mindset very well on Libya and is actually interesting to him.

    The icing / joke is that the Swedish paper was written by two women.

    innocent look

    444:

    been AFK most of the day and catching up on comments.

    Crossing the streams, what you end up with is an interstellar battle fleet designed by Anish Kapoor ...

    I can think of worse designers. As for radiation-proof metals, sounds useful for spaceships, real or imagined. Picturing a ship with its crew wiped out by a gamma ray burst or some such, but in pristine condition. Would that have changed "Bit Rot"?

    445:

    There was a post about this not that long ago, albeit not by the usual author: http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2015/04/who-got-fantasy-in-my-science-.html

    Glasshouse was offered as an example of mind control without psychic powers.

    446:

    What's happening at the edges of the universe?

    Assuming you meant that literally. My understanding is that there is no "Edge" to the Universe; that wherever you go you are at the center from your own point of view, you can see nearly 14 billion light years in every direction.

    447:

    Psychic powers are a bit of a bust this century -- ironically, AIUI it was the endowment of the Koestler Chair of Parapsychology that finally put the knife in, hard: having a full-time academic research base allowed enough peer-reviewed research to be conducted and published to demonstrate a lack of any statistically significant phenomena.

    Not that this is any surprise (psychic powers are a shout-out to mind-body dualism, which is also somewhat busted these days insofar as souls don't show up on MRI) but it kinda-sorta killed its popularity in SF, after decades of it being a staple (John W. Campbell was apparently a believer).

    448:

    Are you referring to Hoka!? By Poul Anderson and Gordon Dickson, if I remember correctly.

    449:

    Ok, so.

    Bear with me on this (it ties into the hyper-masculinity / violence associated with Space Opera, esp. the criticisms of MilSpec Puppies (aww, they're cute) and even Banks) and let's say, My Little Agency and a repetition of Modern Art vrs the Soviets.

    EXTREME Terrorist Prank on Edward (Actor) "English Sub" YT: "comedy" TV: 9:09.

    As far as I can tell, this is genuine from a Saudi Arabian comedy show [Serious Big-Boy Note: there's enough of this stuff around that it might be an Israeli satire, an Egyptian satire or whatever. Not done the research yet. So keep your knickers on - name on the tin is how it's being sold]

    ~

    The question is: how would you even connect to this audience with SF?

    Is there a Islamic SF culture? Or Hindu (ok - yes, flat look they don't really need it given the elephants) and so on?

    ~

    Are the taxonomy of cliches purely Western-centric?

    450:

    Ok.

    People.

    It's ok.

    It does exist.

    This isn't a dogwhistle:

    There website has been present on the web in one form or the other since 2005. With respect to characterization of Muslims there isn’t any single way to describe how Muslims are portrayed in Science Fiction. There are many cases where Muslims are cast in somewhat negative light in SF stories which are set in the near future. On the other hand stories set in the distant future have rather positive portrayal of Muslims. On this website I have tried to collect information about the depiction of Islam and Islamic themes in Science Fiction literature and science fiction written by Muslims. It should be noted that most of the information on this website is in regards to English literature and most certain there is a lot of material in other languages as well but because of the linguistic barrier I do not have access to that literature. Thus if someone could point me to that particular literature then I would be more than happy to add it to the website with due credit to the person.

    Islam and Science Fiction - On Science Fiction, Islam and Muslims Blog

    451:

    And..

    Jinns in Islamic Art ISF Blog, Aug 2015 or Islam Sci-Fi Interview with Razwan ul Haq.

    looks at host

    Instead of Gremlins, you might get Jinn.

    nose wiggle

    452:

    first contact with aliens who lap up fiction with extreme enthusiasm, to the extent that when a Cowboy novel craze sweeps them, they all imitate cowboys, etc, etc

    Sounds like the Hoka series by Gordon Dickson and Poul Anderson.

    453:

    You beat me to it. Just found that site too. I was looking in Tor.com first, iirc they've had articles on Islamic SF the past few years, mostly by Mahvesh Murad, or Amal el-Mohtar and others. I'm fairly sure there've been articles on Hindu SF too.

    454:

    There will be a moment when Greg says, seriouslyYou're faster than us, but there we go.

    @ Gallery.

    We See Dum Mitt operatives.

    Don't poke a dying Dragon. The scent of ??violets?? (one thing I gave up - my actual sense of smell, used to be good for a 100 meters or so, now I can't even tell if what the scent is, sacrifices everywhere) is enough to buoy our spirits.

    455:

    The Grendels were created by Dr. Jack Cohen who knows a bit about biology and reproduction. They may be unlikely but they're not totally implausible.

    456:

    Then again: 100 meters smelling your pheromones of sex and vaginal excretions and smoking and perfumes and fear...

    Yeah, there's a reason Dragons Smoke.

    ~

    Opps.

    ~

    On track:

    What happened to Arab science fiction? Guardian, 2009

    Turns out it's the same meme as Cruz etc.

    Oh now. So the meme of Late Capitalism, Fundamentalist Islam and Christianity is about the black hole of creativity and the death of the human spirit?

    OH, מִיכָאֵל - that's a bit far. That's like putting their failures into perspective.

    ~

    Yeah, but hey. We're designed to do this.

    "Dickhead". And trust me - this amount of "alcohol" should have rendered this host body dead a while back.

    ~

    Imagine what you could do with a loved, healthy specimen.

    (They shit their pants)

    457:

    Ignore the dross - it's there to inform Peanut Gallery that I both see their moves and haven't even got started yet (handicap in sports is a thing, yo!).

    Then again, I wasn't the fucking idiot who spent $160,000,000 on Jeb!

    Pay me 10%, you might have a chance.

    ~

    But yes:

    There's an extremely pertinent and good exercise into looking into why, for instance, Night Watch and translations into foreign languages usually only go one way (I've noted this about 8 months ago back). The Witcher is another good one - best computer RPG in 2015.

    These teams are cracking out some of the best media globally at the moment...

    And there's a reason they can do it that doesn't just depend on low $ costs.

    Hint: they don't MBA it, they love it.

    As an aside: Russians would/will/do find Host's SF hilarious - it has an entirely different resonance when you translate it. [And yes: the dark is in there - the taking off of the legs to cut % transit costs is reaaaaaaaaly much funnier in Russian due to history]

    458:

    That looks very familiar, and it's the right age, so yes...Of course, now I'll have to get a copy :)

    Daft fact regarding Muslims in Science Fiction: before he became King Abdullah of Jordan, Prince Abdullah managed to get himself into ST:V as an extra, apparently pointing out a lack of brown faces in the crew of the Enterprise. Of course, this might also be explained away as "Cavalry Officers getting themselves onto Voyager", typical Hussar :)

    459:

    YEEEEEEES. Thank you, finally for tying the knot (sadly without noticing the irony).

    Hint: Every geek / nerd / millennial knows this. [Hint: which is why the "Baddass in Military Gear" Pr0n shots might have not worked so well on modern audiences - and there, my friends, is how you spot the $$ and out-of-date military propaganda]

    Of course he's Oxford schooled and so on, but...

    Fuck me if I was running the campaign I'd be making sure to tie these things in instead of all the other bullshit.

    ~

    Actual joke:

    Anodyne TV suitable for American audiences plays well in the M.E.

    And that's why Murdoch (evil bastard) spent so much political capital on China etc.

    This is not a compliment. It's an indictment.

    Sucking Cock gets $$, not change.

    460:

    The oxidizer plus super-speed thing on the Grendels struck me as more improbable than their sexuality. Even bombardier beetles are a little less flammable than that.

    Switching sexes through the life cycle is actually fairly normal, when we're talking about things like reef fish (hello, Nemo!). Admittedly having larval males and adult females is a little weird, but it's less weird than the larval females and adult males in Heinlein's martians. Given that the female, egg-producing role requires more resource output than does the male, sperm producing role, it's not unreasonable to have a small organism start by producing sperm, only to switch to producing eggs as it gets bigger. That's not the only consideration, of course, but it does matter.

    461:

    Oh. I'd edited that out of my memory of the story. Yeah, I can't see any evolutionary driver for frogs that eat their young to get smart.

    462:

    Oh, and p.s.

    Insulting someone and then ignoring them is the mark of an out of date school boy or a little girl who needs a hug. Especially when they don't react like you want and just slaughter you on facts.

    The entire social "well, you're now snubbed" thing is past usefulness. It no longer has weight when your Moral Guardians (hello Romney) are up to their ears in the blood of dead children and innocent people who just happened to be brown.

    Why?

    If you missed Trump, that's your inevitable fate along that pattern if you do it. Might as well sign up quick to be a Fascist.

    shrug

    The Mature response is never: "I can't deal with this and so I will shut off", it's "I need some help to move along with this and parse this, do X to allow me to do so".

    p.s.

    Hint: haven't said the evul C word since I was asked nicely. Ok, a few rude words, but not many :p

    ~

    OH.

    Unless you want that future.

    Spoilers: You're probably not quick, smart, fast, hard or even developed enough to survive.

    Even Arnie ain't.

    2.0. Genocide-biggalo.

    We're Faster than You

    Mad Max: Fury Road - Sandstorm Scene YT: film: 4:54

    463:

    I can. The adult/female form really does not need much in the way of brains, but the larval/male form could benefit from them quite a bit. The male form has conflicting interests which "normal" herbivores do not: he needs both to avoid being eaten by the female, and to get close enough to her to mate -- preferably more than once. The skills at observing the female's -- and other males', -- behavior, and learning the safest approach time and route, would be selected for.

    Also, grendels were not human-level intelligent. They were basically very smart animals, without a language.

    464:

    Anyhow, a little meta-tale:

    Communities will ebb and flow and fight against dragons - the real problem is when they don't admit the errors and ignore them for 'shared spirit'.

    Tribalism.

    You're not aware of it.

    But you play that tune so very, very well...

    ~

    And yes: the Islamic SF blog wasn't an accident on that one, and yes, another carved serpent on my arm to prove it.

    Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεός ἦν ὁ λόγος

    465:

    Thinking about current politics, a massively multicultural federation who backs a group tasked with deflating authoritarian regimes and helping migrants might be just the kind of space opera we need right now. After all, look what happened after a WWII vet and plane crash investigator tried running that particular set of tropes in the 1960s.

    [ link repaired - mod ]

    466:

    As I recall, Jack didn't have any input on the Grendals until after the first book was published and he had an opportunity to teach the authors some basic biology.

    467:

    Talking of comedic space opera (someone was, weren't they?) — How Much for Just the Planet? by John M Ford. A classic. Someone persuade his heirs to pull the stick out of their butts and re-release his books, please?

    468:

    I reckon the psychic powers thing long predates Campbell becoming active. In the latter part of the 19th century, thanks to such inputs as Darwin, engineering, big advances in the physical sciences, etc, people began to evince dissatisfaction with traditional religious thought, but lacked the capacity to actually abandon it to a greater than superficial extent (a bit like the Cromwellian protectorate era - "OK, we've got rid of the King, what do we do instead? ...er... er... fuck, this is difficult... er... yeah, do the same thing but it isn't a king, no, really it isn't"). So there arose religions of new-minted bollocks accreted round a seed grain of historical actuality (Druids and Wicca and suchlike cack), or for those who could move further away from actual gods, pseudo-religious stuff involving ghosts and "spirituality" and the like.

    That latter in particular influenced literature, with a lot of stories from the late 19th - early 20th centuries taking it quite seriously, using it as as "real" a plot element as detective techniques, unrequited love, aggressive greed or any other standard plot element, characters discussing it as matter-of-factly as the weather and so on. As the period wore on the focus shifted away from interaction with ghosts and spirits and towards the powers of the individual's own mind. It is out of that "bubble" that Campbell emerged; it also inspired the psychic stuff in Tolkien's works (Tolkien dabbled with SF as a form of mythopoeia, and agreed a project with CS Lewis that one of them would write a space-travel story and the other a time-travel story; Lewis got space, and wrote Perelandra, while Tolkien's time story eventually mutated into Numenor).

    I'm not sure Koestler has an awful lot to do with its disappearance from SF. It seems to me that science-leaning people have regarded it as bollocks for a long long time and Koestler is nothing new, while non-science-leaning people still do accept it, haven't heard of Koestler and wouldn't care or change their views if they did. Rather, it seems to me that it has always been a poor fit with SF because it's too inherently "magicy" in nature. (IMO "Doc" Smith successfully avoided that problem in the Lensman series, at least most of the time; OTOH Asimov's use of it in Foundation seriously grinds my gears by being too silly.) It hung on in SF partly as a result of the continuing Campbell-era influence and authors, and partly because although the fit was poor it was rather better than its fit in any other genre, so if anyone wanted to write about it SF was what it became. When fantasy started to take off as a genre, though, psychics fitted it like a glove, and so there was no need to squeeze it in under SF any more.

    Mind-body dualism? Seems to be alive and well to me - mind-uploading and similar in SF, the real-world proof that a program can't determine what it's running on, widespread familiarity with the distinction between software and hardware in everyday computing, etc...

    469:

    You could deploy a large umbrella made of lightweight plastic film, coated with gold on the inside and carbon black on the outside, and hide the spaceship behind that. As long as you knew which half of the sky the enemy were in you'd probably be OK. Yeah I was thinking along the lines of IR-reflective shrouds too, although more to an eye of collimating the ship's IR radiation. The idea being that the spaceship would be playing the odds - if it was unlucky enough to sweep the dump beam over an adversary's detector it would be very easy to spot indeed.

    470:

    Be interesting to see a list of who you think does this well. Somewhat like programming, it's easier to learn from examples. I found the authors quoted with reference to the Laundry files to be interesting to read, some I would not otherwise have tried (Adam Hall for example), so I was interested to see if I had missed any here.

    My contribution would be (aside from our host)

    • Iain Banks (doesn't care a jot about space per se but I can't leave him out)
    • Peter Watts
    • Stanislaw Lem
    • Ken MacLeod

    Lem is perhaps less worthy for this, some of his stuff is pretty outdated, but has a place for, among other things, Solaris.

    One characteristic I found common to all of the above is that they are not normally writing a space opera for the sake of writing space opera (E. E. Doc Smith's Lensman series is pure space opera) but are interested in using the space opera is used as a framework. For CS, clearly, that framwork is used to explore economics; for Watts and Lem, consciousness; and MacLeod, politics - I recommend reading The Star Fraction if you haven't already.

    I am sure I have missed out many good authors and I note, given earlier discussions, that I haven't included any female authors. It depends on one's definition of Space Opera I suppose, do, say, Connie Willis, Doris Lessing, Julian May or Lois McMaster Bujold count? Probably not since I don't see them as producing space opera (good and highly enjoyable authors all). Elizabeth Bear and C. J. Cherryh certainly do write space opera but they are less interesting to me than the above (again very good authors).

    471:

    Deities I'm ignorant, didn't know about Dunbar's Number.

    It could be more related to altruism. If you haven't seen this work, Abigail Marsh could be onto something here (not sure). I think both these links are good; tested them away from any magic IP addresses. :

    Neural and cognitive characteristics of extraordinary altruists Results showed group differences in right amygdala volume (t = 2.04; P < 0.05), but not left amygdala volume (t = 1.64; P > 0.10). Mean right amygdala volume of altruists was 1,782 mm3 (SD = 137) compared with 1,648 mm3 (SD = 152) for controls, corresponding to a volume difference of 8.1%

    Also this is a good survey: Advanced Review Neural, cognitive, and evolutionary foundations of human altruism

    472:

    Actually, I think you've got that backwards. Good ol' spiritualism and later parapsychology got boosted a fair bit by events like the American Civil War and World War I. Part of it's the clash between religion and science, and trying out the scientific method on the supernatural. Partly it's that a lot of people lost those dear to them, and wanted to find a way to contact them.

    Wicca, OTOH, is basically a 1940s phenomenon, and so is modern Druidry. These are best seen as new religions that arose using the intellectual framework created by the Golden Dawn's form of ritual magic, and I'll leave it there.

    And psychic forces haven't disappeared from space opera by a long shot. So long as we've got vulcans full of midichlorians using the Force in a mindmeld with their treecats, you get the picture.

    Now if you want to get seriously into the Land of Wu with your space opera, the obvious place to look is the nexus between traditional Chinese medicine and western medicine currently taking place in China. That's a whole alternative method of psychic powers, with two mutually contradictory intellectual schemes, and the cross-fertilization can get interesting. Of course, if you're going to use that, properly your magical protagonists should be Chinese (or Tibetan, or Indian, or Japanese).

    473:

    As I recall, Jack didn't have any input on the Grendals until after the first book was published and he had an opportunity to teach the authors some basic biology.

    I recall him getting credited in the first book — something about an African frog that survives on its tadpoles. Wikipedia calls him a consultant for it.

    474:

    That's a whole alternative method of psychic powers, with two mutually contradictory intellectual schemes, and the cross-fertilization can get interesting.

    Sounds kinda like Celestial Matters by Richard Garfinkle, although he used Aristotelian and Taoist science…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_Matters

    475:

    Kind of, but the various Taoist, Buddhist, and Indian systems are more Aristotelian than our modern sciences are.

    We have had chi rifles and such in fantasy (Lindskold and Zelazny's Lord Demon, IIRC), not to mention Akira and a flock of anime and manga, so this isn't exactly new.

    Still, if you want to replace psychic powers, you could mess with the galactic feng shui or use your prenatal qi to increase your lifespan. That's at least as fictionally viable as psychic abilities, or even copying the biology of vampires as a road towards hibernation. You could even, dare I suggest it, take the Randall Garret route and come up with the Neo-Taoist Synthesis that reconciles chinese and western science (as with Garret's Laws of Magic) and opens the way to the stars for your space opera.

    Just a thought.

    476:

    I think the whole question of psychic powers is a subset of the transhumanism issue. If you have space opera level tech, aren't standard biological humans anachronistic? If humans have changed, probably in a variety of ways, then of course there would be variants that had capabilities indistinguishable from psychic powers. Especially, brains will be laced with structures for interfacing with other brains and technology. This is different from the specific myth that basic humans (or special lineage of them) have latent powers that just have to be cultivated, but it's many of the same capabilities. If there's a virus that infects everybody, and it creates structures allowing some form of transmission and reception between key neurons, then you have some "people" with the ability to "read" minds as well as transmit into them voluntarily or involuntarily--to induce hallucinations or take control of voluntary or involuntary functions.

    477:

    There was this article in the Ursa Astronomical Association (the Finnish hobby club for this kind of stuff) magazine Tähdet ja avaruus (Stars and space). I can dig the names and references at home.

    Anyway, the article was about civilization in globular clusters. The stars are closer and the interviewed researched had the opinion that the metallicity in the old clusters would not be that much of a problem.

    I thought immediately that a globular cluster would make a nice setting for a space opera. Not sure about FTL (it would be obviously useful) but if the distances between stars were decades instead of centuries or millennia, travelling between the stars would be easier.

    I think Hamilton's Night's Dawn had something like this.

    478:

    ...apart from a small number of people who are naturally immune, and so lacking the neurotransceiver are "off-net". They suffer difficulties interacting with society in a manner analogous to some combination of the difficulties imposed by deafness and autism, but on the other hand they are highly valuable for certain security-related roles.

    479:

    What I meant was that the modern conception of a druid is a Victorian invention, even if it was some time after that that significant numbers of people got into pretending to be one :)

    480:

    Thanks Except that is even "WORSE" from "the authorities" p.o.v. ... At least 6% & possibly more are using cannabis .... 3.6 - 4 Million people. War on Drugs utterly lost. My original question still stands - why are "They" bothering, especially since we don't have the USA's Prison-Industrial complex ... ?

    481:

    "Genesis Quest" & "Second Genesis" by Donald Moffitt. Protagonists - revived humans, constructed from transmitted genetic code by intelligent STARFISH (see other sub-tropes ) use a giant Ash-tree ( Called Yggdrasil, natürlich ) to navigate between the stars.

    482:

    and yes, this is where the god-king AI trope feeds in OK - question for y'all: What is the Dunbar's Number (equivalent) for Culture Minds?

    483:

    Exception: Brin's "Uplift" series ... until the end when he went all religious-&-mystical a lost the whole thing utterly.

    484:

    See also my comment @ 482, above. The question has still not been answered by "the authorities", either. I suspect it's driven by US international & foreign policy, even as said regime is being undermined in several US states ... interesting

    485:

    "Space and Cosmology ... Planets rotate east-to-west"

    Don't all planet rotate east-to-west by definition? Or at least by choice? I guess someone could choose the alternative, but this seems more settled on Earth than what side of the road to drive on.

    This seems less a cliche than a reasonable requirement for planet navigation. I think this is clearer than magnetic north as cold-cored planets wouldn't have a magnetic field.

    486:

    Indeed, that happened 1917-21 (& '22) & the system was right on the verge of collapse, until Lenin did a sharp U-turn & instituted the "NEP". IF Lenin had lived ... one of the great might-have-beens, as Stalin was about to be seriously demoted just before Lenin's death.

    487:

    Minds are all copies of one original design. They are like computers running the same operating system, but running on different hardware, with different software installed and with different custom setups. Thus there's an affinity already. Also, they are very smart and have good communications (except for Eccentrics) so they can keep up with lots of each other well. They probably send the equivalent of Christmas Cards, or at least hear very high bandwidth gossip. Hub minds keep track of everything happening in an orbital. Not looking it up (haven't put it in my spreadsheet yet for all cases), but Minds number in the millions, depending on era. So given the ability of Minds to be familiar with so much, it should be easy for the Dunbar's Number for Minds to be greater than the number of Minds. On the other hand, Minds clearly form cliques (cf The Interesting Times Gang and Special Circumstances itself). But even in a small tribe where everyone knows each other are there not nevertheless cliques and committees?

    488:

    Like CHarlie - Godwhale is brilliant totall y wierd. Warhorse not come acroos. BUT: Communism =/= Leninism =/= Stalinism =/= Socialism Wrong, wrong, correct. "Leninism", "Stalinism" are boith variant sects of the Communist religion, which itself uses the self-label: "Socialism", which, as Charlie often points out is different, according to which "International" you are following - & was before Communism became a religion, with all the usual lies, murder, torture, heresies, etc ...

    You have to remember that the self-label "Socialist" doesn't mean it is - as in all the right-wingers going on about how the Nazis were evil socialists because it was in the name. About as reliable as the "D" in "DDR" or "DPRK" in fact.

    489:

    A planet could be tumbling. Once I was in a situation where I was constantly having to temporarily memorize long numbers (ground controlling serial numbered helicopters into a refueling point) and at dull times I dreamed up an imaginary planet with a 10000 year history which I could use as mnemonics. The planet had been tidally locked, but aliens had taken it over and impacted it with a sunwardly bound asteroid that started it slowly spinning, so it's south pole was now at the leading point as the planet went around its star. These days were long, and the impactor continued to orbit, but low. So there were ten days per year, ten months per day. And ten years per Staryear (it was a binary system and the second star got closer and farther away periodically. These aliens had interfered with everything so it was all perfect multiples of ten. Thus giving me lots of digits to associate with pseudo historical events.

    490:

    "Yeah I was thinking along the lines of IR-reflective shrouds too..."

    Back in the ancient past I did a brief numerical analysis for sci.military.moderated on thermal stealth as a protection against ABM systems. The optimum is probably a mirrored cone cooled with LN2

    491:

    Back pre-war before people got to redefining terms, both Fascism and Communism were seen as Left wing simply because they are both collectivist ideologies.

    492:

    Hindu SF It's called: "The Mahabharata" actually.

    493:

    WWII vet and plane crash investigator Sorry, no comprende senor, on that one. Please elucidate?

    494:

    Is there a Islamic SF culture? Or Hindu (ok - yes, flat look they don't really need it given the elephants) and so on?

    I'm not an expert on world SF -- in fact, I'm so ignorant I probably have Dunning-Kruger issues on the subject.

    What I've been told (caution: insufficient expertise to know if I'm being gaslighted) is:

    a) Arab world generally has problems with fiction, or at least their fundamentalists do. This is not noteworthy in itself insofar as Christian and Jewish fundamentalists also have a problem with fiction -- note the censorship of school library issues in the USA? -- except that in the middle east, the fundamentalists are more likely to be in the driving seat this century.

    b) There is a visible fantasy sector in India, but I'm told SF is/has been conspicuously absent. This may be changing.

    c) In China SF is huge and has been for the past two decades -- the world's largest circulation SF magazine is Chinese (I've been published in translation in it), Chinese SF is beginning to be translated into English, and so on.

    d) SF is big in Japan but more of a comics/TV/games phenomenon than literature, although there are Japanese SF book publishers (and I've been translated there).

    e) SF at least exists in South America but I'm unclear on its extent; certainly translation of English works seems to often go via Spanish and Portuguese publishers in the EU who sell into the SA market.

    f) There is African SF (notably South African) but I'm pretty much ignorant of the field beyond being able to drop a couple of author names.

    You might get some more insights by picking up The Apex Book of World SF anthology series (ed. Lavie Tidhar).

    Yes, I strongly suspect SF is a WEIRD-dominated literature associated with social change experienced during rapid industrial development phases. The imperialist cliches in space opera correspond to aspects of the western cultural outlook circa 1920-1960, when the form of space opera was taking shape (and, coincidentally, western imperial ascendancy was mostly above question in the west).

    495:

    No, Hadil, I'm not insulting you and ignoring you. I reacted to one of your patronising comments, and explained why I ignore most of your posts, paying them no attention.

    Some of them, I have no doubt, contain useful and informative links - but so many of them are written in a tone that means I have no faith that anything worthwhile will come of the effort to parse them, and no interest in investing scarce time to do so.

    To everyone else - I know, if Hadil is a troll, I'm fulfilling the troll's need for attention...

    496:

    Neat. I used to do a kinda-sorta similar thing when swimming one, two, or three kilometers sets in a pool. Each hundred meters (or years) was broken into four twenty-five year parts, in which I would try to recall historic events. Anything to keep track of the lengths in an 80-length swim.

    In your example, which is fair enough, I feel that if a planet were tidally locked, it would no longer have a north or south pole. After giving the planet spin, people could say the sun rises in the south because history matters more than logic in language (and saying the sun 'rises' is itself an example) but I presume pedants would encourage a re-orientation so the sun rose in the east. If the planet has no magnetic field, north and south would be chosen as a matter of convenience or coin-flipping.

    497:

    I believe that Iain Bank's "Against a Dark Background" is:

    A romping space opera

    that

    Does not match any of the tropes matched above.

    But the boundaries of "space opera" are vague, and the list of tropes given is long. So I could be wrong. Certainly the limitation to a single system may be considered by some to stop it from being space opera.

    498:
    The optimum is probably a mirrored cone cooled with LN2

    As this is around ~70K, it won't help you very much against a cosmic background temperature of ~3K.

    Also, as regards big IR shrouds: consider the asteroid detection capabilities of the spacefaring cultures in question. A system of telescopes that look for the occulusion of background stars won't be quite as straightforward to make or run as a network of IR detectors, but it isn't exactly handwavey superscience. It would put some quite hard limits on the size and/or speed of your shroud.

    Hasn't the stealth-in-space thing been put to death yet? What will it take?

    499:

    {back at the original post}

    New category:-

    "No generalisation is true, not even this one" ;-)

    Seriously, everything in that post is true of some Space Operas, but I've read/seen plenty of stuff where at least some of those points are untrue.

    500:

    "it felt very lived in"

    Nicely put. That's what I really liked about Against a Dark Background too. The world/system/society/technology all had a feel of depth to it, like people really had been living there.

    501:

    Not quite. What it showed was the lack of any significant phenomena reproducible under laboratory conditions. There were (and are) quite a lot of anomalous effects that were explained by various forms of handwavium. One I saw was positing subliminal hearing, sufficient to understand speech, at 10 dB below thermal noise. I think that we can draw two conclusions:

    There is no real evidence for the old-style psychic powers existing.

    Humans, other animals, and probably even plants, have sensory and mental abilities that we haven't fully identified.

    It's only recently that the last has become mentionable in biomedical papers. For example, I remember when the official dogma was that no animal could have a magnetic sense, because that smacked of parapsychology.

    502:

    The concept (in humans) long predated Dunbar, and the approximate value (for humans) was common knowledge at least 20 years earlier, probably 40. I first saw it in the context of the largest community which could work without a management structure (i.e. pure communism, in one sense). For all its faults, sociology has been a serious science for a very long time.

    503:

    ''My original question still stands - why are "They" bothering, ...''

    Because (a) it allows the Gnome Office to enhance its self-importance, budget and salaries and (b) it gives the lawnorder demogogues a stick with which to beat their opponents over the head with.

    504:

    I'm not sure Koestler has an awful lot to do with its disappearance from SF.

    Not Koestler -- he was a true believer in this crud! -- but the academic chair that he left an endowment to set up.

    (It bounced around British academia like an unexploded bomb for years -- a pot of money with unpalatable strings attached. Finally the University of Edinburgh's Psychology Department accepted it ... and the Koestler Parapsychology Unit promptly began grinding out research studies that terminally undermined it's raison d'etre.

    On dualism and mind uploading: there's a subtle distinction. The dualist world-view holds that there is an eternal soul made out of some sort of intangible but nevertheless real "soul-stuff" that interacts with the material world just enough to record your experiences and pull the puppet strings in your head, and which goes a-flying up to heaven when your body dies.

    Uploading: not so much, although AIUI it originated as a metaphor in a discussion between a computer scientist and his devoutly Catholic wife. The point is, we know that software is neither a physical object nor intangible soul-stuff, but information encoded in the relative configuration of physical electrons and atoms: we know how it interacts with machines designed to support it, and the hypothesis is that the equivalent state information about the human neural connectome can be abstracted (somehow) and emulated on a suitable chunk of computing hardware.

    This is questionable, but doesn't rely on invoking dubious states of existence that are immune to physical examination: it is, at least, falsifiable.

    505:

    "It's an old cliche of First Contact (indeed, an old suggestion by scientists speculating about interstellar communication as a serious idea) that communication would start with basic mathematical statements or demonstrations: sequences of prime numbers, the Pythagorean theorem, etc."

    Quite. Most scientists will assume those are basic, but the better mathematicians know that is not necessarily so. "Story Of Your Life" is interesting in this respect.

    506:

    A nice description! Yes, indeed. And there was quite a furore within Edinburgh over whether to accept it, plus the expected catty remarks from academics at other institutions.

    507:

    Lem is perhaps less worthy for this, some of his stuff is pretty outdated, but has a place for, among other things, Solaris.

    Lem has historically been terribly badly translated into English -- most of his translations prior to the current decade were translations into English from an earlier Polish-to-French(!) translation, which missed most of the jokes and subtle word-play and scrambled much of the deep meaning.

    (I need to get around to reading the new, improved, direct Polish-to-English translations that are trickling out. Hint: Poland joining the EU has been really good for improving our access to Polish culture and literature.)

    Connie Willis, Doris Lessing, Julian May and Lois McMaster Bujold definitely count as space opera authors -- although in all cases except May (as far as I know: I haven't read all of her work), they're using it as a frame for tackling deeper thematic issues. And at their best, they're record-holder-for-most-Hugos-for-best-novel and Nobel-Laureate great writers.

    508:

    You might also want to read Elisabeth Moon's "Remnant Population" if this sort of thing interests you.

    509:

    Humans, other animals, and probably even plants, have sensory and mental abilities that we haven't fully identified.

    Supporting evidence: once you take into account a species' sensory parameters some interesting new evidence of behaviour or communication usually pops up. Examples: elephants' use of infrasound at 8Hz and below to communicate across long distances (via their feet on hard-packed ground). Mice and rats are much more vocal in the 20-100KHz range than in human-audible frequency ranges. Cats can hear up to 50-60KHz -- presumably an adaptation to a diet that includes small talkative rodents. Elephants exhibit self-recognition in mirrors if the mirror is big enough (early attempts with human face-sized mirrors were a bust, oddly enough). And so on.

    510:

    probably 40. I first saw it in the context of the largest community which could work without a management structure

    I'm assuming it would need considerable goodwill on the part of the participants. Personal observation suggests that businesses require a single boss/manager up to somewhere between 8 and 20 employees -- above that threshold it needs a management structure (i.e. no one manager can maintain awareness of everything that their subordinates are doing). Of course, we don't call it "wage slavery" for nothing; while some folks enjoy their work, others are only there for the pay cheque and still more are okay with work but go through burn-out/depression/demotivation/boredom -- a chunk of [good] management is about mitigating this, and a lot of bad management is about keeping the proles in line with a big stick.

    511:

    As this is around ~70K, it won't help you very much against a cosmic background temperature of ~3K.

    Which, as I've tried to point out, is not what you have to worry about in the IR.

    (You have worry about the extragalactic IR background + the galactic IR background + whatever the local dust distribution is in your vicinity -- e.g., the zodiacal light in the inner Solar System.)

    512:

    How Much for Just the Planet? by John M Ford. A classic. Someone persuade his heirs to pull the stick out of their butts and re-release his books, please?

    The copyright on How Much for Just the Planet? is owned by Paramount, so when and whether that novel is reissued is up to them. (It is currently available in ebook format at places like Amazon and the iBook Store.)

    514:

    One of the tropes that amuses me is when the ship jumps into a new system, and within hours its crew knows where all the planets, stations and other ships are.

    Hey guys, we've got stealth planets in this Solar System. And plenty of smaller bodies that get close in to us before they're finally spotted.

    515:

    Right. However, the context was communes etc., which have a less critical need for coordination. Above 100-200, even the cohesion of purpose starts to fall apart.

    I have come across some businesses with a commune structure, but I have never heard of any reaching more than half a dozen or so without needing some kind of hierarchy. As you say, 8-20 is the maximum size for a single manager - I have seen research that confirms that, as well as observed it.

    516:

    We have an active-cooling worked example in the SR-71 where the fuel is used as coolant before it is burned in the engines. This isn't for stealth reasons but simply because of the skin-frictional heating effects of high speed flight in an atmosphere.

    One suggestion for stealthing aircraft to prevent detection by thermal imaging systems was to use liquid hydrogen to cool the lower fuselage and underside of the wings before it was burned as fuel. Critics pointed out the difficulty of handling LH2 on board a carrier in a combat situation with rapid turnaround of aircraft.

    517:

    Space is a high-radiation fault-intolerant microgravity environment. It takes a paranoid degree of attention to life support integrity for humans to live there at all -- much like long-term life aboard a nuclear submarine, only with added happy fun medical conditions (detached retinas, bone mass loss, fluid retention, muscle wasting) due to microgravity.

    Agree on all points but think of yourself as a pakicetus pondering on the habitat of a spermwhale. "It's too deep, the pressure 3 km under water will kill you. You can't find the squids, it's too dark to see. You'd have to swim way too fast to keep up with your food."

    If expanding into space on a large scale ever happens ways will be found. Technology and biological evolution are in the process of becoming a potent mix as far as I can tell. It won't take around 50 million years for humans to make the comparable leap from pakicetus to sperm whale or any whale for that matter.

    What if p-B11 fusion, or any type of man made fusion, becomes possible? 'We don't need no stinkin' star.' A group of people finds a cosy free floating planet with enough material in orbit and decide to stay. What will they evolve into compared to space dwellers around sol?

    518:

    "I want to probe Uranus". Before you do let's see if a fly can land on Uranus.

    519:

    You would almost certainly end up with a rapid turnover of aircraft :-)

    520:

    I would have said that the weak version of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis lives on, but no-one bothers to talk about it because it has become part of the substrate most of sociolinguistics is built on. The hard version was very sort-lived, as befits a simplistic, deterministic theory about people. The effect of native language, and of being monolingual or not as a child, is really quite strong (though I suspect some of the effects ascribed to first language in the early literature were actually effects of being monolingual, where the comparator group were bi- or multi-lingual. The big error in fiction of many types is thinking that translation is EVER easy. Translation is hard even with closely related languages in one species.

    521:

    Interesting, especially to those of us whose primary modes of thinking are non-verbal :-)

    522:

    "Orbitals" as in Culture, & Ringworld, of course.

    It all comes back to me now! Looong time ago since I've read Ringworld. 30+ years? Not familiar with Culture though. See if I can something. Won't be in dutch. I was surprised to see a newly translated SF book in the local bookshop, by Ann Leckie. That was AT LEAST a decade ago. And it sold out in no time at all. Everything gone before I could get one. Hopefully it stimulates publishers to translate more for the dutch market.

    523:

    And in Humans we have 5 billion or so magnetite crystals scattered throughout the brain, apparently doing nothing

    524:

    Emission scales as a 4th power of temperature. So you don't have to reduce temperature by much to get a huge drop in IR emission.

    525:

    Use liquid methane, as supposedly used by the mythical Aurora and its pulse detonation engines

    526:

    I read Charlie for pleasure, and part of the reason I find his writing pleasurable is that he's put a lot of work into making himself understood. I tend not to read Hadil as I don't find their posts pleasurable in any way, not least because they seem to go out of their way to be as obscure as possible. Also, while OGH gets justifiably tetchy from time to time, Hadil just launches themself into scraps such that past a certain point in a thread it seems that nearly everything they post contains a swipe at someone, specific or generally. I didn't like that style of posting when they were Catina, and I still don't like it.

    527:

    There are mechanical differences between stretchy structures anchored on a solid border (roughly what the pelvis is in a mammal), and stretchy structures without a solid set of anchor points. Whether this would be enough to cause more problems with the hole not closing up again than the structure there is in mammals I'm not sure about. It would also, as has been commented before, need to be workable and advantageous at all stages from single-cell up.

    528:

    Jewish fundamentalists also have a problem with fiction

    This seems to apply to the men, who are usually off at yeshiva studying Talmud all day, or at work. There is ultra-orthodox fiction mostly written by and for women, often in Yiddish. Non-violent mysteries and family dramas are most common. Lately there have been a number of ex-Hassidic writers in mainstream publishing, possibly starting with Naomi Ragen in the 90s.

    529:

    The stuff I've been reading recently (post 2000 copyright dates) it's more typically "Ship jumps in and within minutes the crew know where all cosmic bodies and structures were some light hours ago" and several hours before their presence will be detected by observers orbiting the habitable planet(s).

    530:

    You are correct. (Noted biologist) Jack Cohen described the frogs to Niven over dinner at an SF con, and acted as biology advisor while he wrote the book. Jack's main complaint about SF biology was always that it was so much more ordinary than actual Earth biology.

    531:

    Bolometric emission scales as the fourth power of temperature. But as temperature goes up, the bulk of the emission shifts to higher frequencies (for thermal sources, Wien's law states that wavelength of peak intensity is inversely proportional to temperature).

    So, in fact, the IR emission scales at much less than T4. That's why we observe in IR when trying to image small, cool objects (e.g. planets) close to big, hot objects (e.g. stars).

    532:

    Zappos is pretty interesting, as they're trying to completely remove management. They're an odd duck though. Valve is similar.

    Zappos is interesting though in they pay people to quit if they don't like the culture.

    Hard to say if it works or not.

    533:

    Interesting enough, the two classic empires did not practice inheritance by blood per se.

    The Roman Empire had a complicated system, but in the first years it came down to blood. The real height of the empire under the 5 good emperors had all of them adopt the next Emperor. Blood emperors were Nero, Caligula, Commodious. Adopted Emperors were Trajan, Marcus Aurelius, etc. But such systems set by man never last. Commodious's incompetence ushered in a century of Barracks Emperors. The Tetrachy which ended it didn't last long, and led to blood emperors. By the time of the Eastern Empire, it was a mixture of blood and generalship.

    The Holy Roman Empire otoh, despite being blood for much of its history, was usually in theory elected by the princes. Made it easy to get around unsuitable candidates, at least until the 30 years war wrecked it.

    534:

    The really interesting comment in this article is:

    'Altruists exhibited variations in neural anatomy and functioning that represent the inverse of patterns previously observed in psychopaths, who are unusually callous and antisocial. These findings suggest extraordinary altruism represents one end of a caring continuum and is supported by neural mechanisms that underlie social and emotional responsiveness.'

    How about we line up all current and would-be heads of gov't/state for complimentary MRIs and take a look? After all, we're already looking at their finances which, socially, is one of the most personal, awkward and feared acts that can be done to anyone and this is just the next step up, technology-wise.

    535:

    b) There is a visible fantasy sector in India, but I'm told SF is/has been conspicuously absent. This may be changing.

    Well, there are a growing number of Indian films, particularly in the last fifteen years, that are arguably science-fictional, though I gather the most successful have been more in the superhero genre. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_fiction_films_in_India

    A little googling turns up this article in the Encyclopedia of Science Fiction on SF in Bengali/Bangla, which argues for an ongoing SFnal tradition starting in the 19th Century, including pioneering feminist SF by Rokeya Sakhawat Hossain in the early 1900s (some in English, some in Bangla), fiction by Nobel laureate physicist S.C. Bose around the same time, and fiction by the filmmaker Satyajit Ray in the 1960s, among others.

    536:

    I was about to reply to Surprises_Aplenty, about how calling where the local star rises East is just a linguistic thing and you can call it whatever you want, when I saw your suggestion of a tumbling planet. Which got me thinking--keeping in mind IANAScientist. Would something as massive as a planet continue to tumble? I suspect it would eventually reach some equilibrium and its rotation would settle along one axis, or return to being tidally locked. Or if it was tumbling fast enough it would break apart.

    537:

    Trying to read the old translation of Solaris was an awful drudgery that I gave up on, but I disagree that Lem was generally badly translated into English. The Michael Kandel translations of The Cyberiad and The Futurological Congress are beautiful and funny. Lem's relative success in the Anglo sphere was probably partly due to their quality.

    539:

    That translated book either can't have been by Ann Leckie (whose first book publication was 2013) or it wasn't all that long ago.

    Could you recommend some Dutch SF that hasn't yet been translated into English but should be?

    540:

    I'd suggest that Superheros (and villains) may be SF, depending on how they derive their powers:-

    1) Tech heroes - obvious examples Batman, Iron Man. Never mind how many laws of Earth Prime physics they ignore or gloss over, they get their powers from technology so are clearly SF. 2) Aliens - You can argue them as SF or fantasy. Examples include Kryptonians, Samaritan (Astro City). 3) Superfit - I'd say more or less detectives. This group is I think most common in Astro City, and is pretty much that (eg QUarrel, Crackerjack, Jack in the Box...). "Normal" humans who've trained a lot and maybe have some tech, but if it does it fits into reasonable possibility. 4) Mental powers - I'm going to put anyone who can manipulate physics or use telepathy into this group. Obvious examples include most X-Men. 5) Mutants - Ok X-Men are also mutants, but here I'm thinking more of Marvel's increasing number of spider powers, Flash...

    541:

    'If there's a virus that infects everybody, and it creates structures allowing some form of transmission and reception between key neurons, then you have some "people" with the ability to "read" minds as well as transmit into them voluntarily or involuntarily--to induce hallucinations or take control of voluntary or involuntary functions.' ...

    Or its opposite a la Zika ... anyone wonder whether the human jump in evolution might have been due to the opposite of Zika ... a virus that for some reason gave specific brain regions a huge boost in growth and complexity? Consider if Zika could be studied to the point where different versions could be programmed to affect different brain regions ..voila ... here's your superman or able-bodied slave.

    542:

    Minor nitpick: Heating during supersonic flight is caused by air compression, not by friction.

    But, of course: Great, epic list! I am really enjoying making my way down it and thinking of as many examples as I can for each entry. It's never hard to come up with 5 right away from just a few sources (Star Trek, Star Wars, Foundation/Robots, etc.).

    543:

    Weird. There was originally a link in there.

    Try this one

    544:

    Would something as massive as a planet continue to tumble? I suspect it would eventually reach some equilibrium and its rotation would settle along one axis, or return to being tidally locked. Or if it was tumbling fast enough it would break apart.

    For true tumbling, you're absolutely right. Small bodies such as asteroids can tumble; large bodies can't, at least on astronomically relevant timescales.

    This doesn't precisely mean that they settle on a single stable axis of rotation: the principal axis of rotation can precess around a second axis. For example, the Earth's rotational axis precesses around the normal to the plane of the Earth's orbit with a period of around 26000 years (note: this means that any historical novels which have an ancient Greek navigator steering by the Pole Star are talking nonsense—2000 years ago there wasn't a naked-eye star near enough to the North Celestial Pole to permit this). Precession is caused by perturbing forces: mainly the gravity of the Moon and the Sun acting on the non-spherical Earth (because the Earth is essentially an oblate spheroid, the tidal forces of the Moon and Sun acting on the equatorial bulge produce a net torque).

    545:

    Orbital junk: is Earth the only planet surrounded by a minefield of garbage/space junk? (Any misapplied laser could fry the atmosphere, thus untidy planets are regularly held for ransom.)

    Pigeon 471: ‘… the real-world proof that a program can't determine what it's running on,…’ Please explain, provide examples.

    Not encountered in any SF/SO so far ...

    3D printers - every ship has one of these and HP has the galactic monopoly on cartridges.

    Molecular biologics ... rather than finished goods including 'seeds', wouldn't space colonies prefer to get shipments of various types/sizes of molecules so that they could then customize as needed ... an intermediate stage of materials/goods trade.

    AI designs a 3D printer so that it can design a body for itself so as to better interact with mostly-bags-of-water. Reaction is very positive but side effects occur including of a very personal nature.

    546:

    Thanks. The original comment on lasers was to make people think about them.

    In any case, this guy missed one crucial part of space warfare that others have brought up here: stuff in space moves fast. Basically, you're on a bullet, shooting at another bullet. Except spaceships move faster than bullets. This imposes all kinds of technical challenges.

    For example, stealth in space is easy. The Chelyabinsk meteor had no stealth at all, but it came in undetected, because it was moving so fast that it hit before the radar could pick it up. Radar has a speed limit, even if the light does not. Stealth is also reportedly easy when you know who's looking at you, as reportedly demonstrated by the MISTY satellite in 1999. That patent was even seen publicly for awhile before it was made secret, and basically it was something like an inflatable F-117 shield, designed to deflect radar away from certain angles. That's a critical point: space stealth been done already. Arguing that it's impossible gets a little silly, especially since it's now common knowledge that airplane stealth was never used or intended to be total invisibility.

    And so forth and so on. Trying to design space warfare by analogy to something like air war only works about as well as designing air war by analogy to surface naval warfare, which is what they did a century ago when airplanes were first invented and zeppelins were popular. This is where the old SF and modern steampunk stories of fleets of zeppelins comes from. Granted, I like operating from analogy, and space opera is all about using Romantic analogies. But they only go so far.

    I'd suggest, as others have, that space war is going to be a bit like submarine war: --you've got limited sensory input, and most of it will be passive. --you really don't want to be detected at all (fly ballistic and keep your radiators pointed away from hostile forces) --if you are detected, if they get enough information to chart your trajectory, you're in very serious trouble --if you get in trouble at depth (or in space), getting to a place where the environment is survivable for the crew is difficult.

    547:

    Oh, and one more thing, by analogy to submarine warfare:

    --your torpedoes, photon or otherwise, are going to suck for a very long time, so you're not going to have any very useful weapons and your kill ratio is going to be abysmal.

    And getting beyond torpedoes, I suspect that if magsails come along, they'll be adopted for space war, simply because they'll allow ships to change direction, at least in cis-martian solar space, without leaving an obvious hot plume of exhaust.

    548:

    AI designs a 3D printer so that it can design a body for itself so as to better interact with mostly-bags-of-water. Reaction is very positive but side effects occur including of a very personal nature. Titles escape me, but the metaphysics of this are covered in 2 ST:TNG episodes. In the first one, Data "is intimate" with Tasha Yar, and in the second this fact is crucial in proving that Data is a sentient being and not Starfleet equipment.

    549:

    An example of this is aircraft design. Consider the pace of progress between 1903 (Wright Brothers first flight at Kittyhawk, NC) and 1953 (early service of the DeHavilland Comet jetliner), and the progress from 1953 to 2006. Commercial aircraft have progressed in terms of fuel efficiency, safety and electronic sophistication, but the rate of change in basic design has slowed greatly; we are probably near the limits of efficiency in hydrocarbon-powered aerodynamic flight.

    We are probably in the late Lilienthal-early Wright period of interplanetary transportation; potentially great advances in propulsion, safety and sustainability are the subject of current research. If we survive entry into a hot earth environment, these technologies should open the solar system to scientific, economic and political exploitation. In their time, too, these technologies will come to maturity and the rate of change will dramatically slow.

    If FTL/STL interstellar travel is possible, the same technology curve should hold for that "tech tree".

    550:

    And the fastest manned airbreathing aircraft ever flown, the SR-71, first flew in 1962.

    551:

    Understood, although the history of druidry in the modern era has more in common with freemasonry than with Victorian romanticism. Still, there aren't a lot of modern druids around, but groups like what is now OBOD started along with Wicca (the founders were friends).

    552:

    @542

    I should have written: That was AT LEAST a decade ago, since the last translated book.

    There is only one writer that I'm aware of who sold more than one book in any quantities. Wim Gijsen was his name. Wrote mostly fantasy with an outing or 2 in sci-fi direction. Top notch stuff.

    One guy, Ad Visser, wrote a book that really only sold because he was a tv-personality at the time.

    Other than that a few IMO rather mediocre books from a couple of writers and that's it since the late 60's the Netherlands.

    There are some magazines that publish stories in the sci-fi, fantasy and horror genres. The writers are paid with the honor of being published and receiving a free copy. You can imagine the quality of the writers that that attracts.

    So after the large publishers stopped translating sci-fi I had to become better at reading english and with books and dictionary it took a few years to become good enough at it to be able to get into the story of book rather than reading it like a manual of some sort.

    553:

    I recently read the Dread Empire's Fall by WJW and they send small chips ("pinnacles") with their anti-matter torpedo swarms in order to give them last minute course corrections without communication delays.

    554:

    True, but at room temperature and below all emissions are deep IR, greater than 10 microns. The original analysis pertained to US "cheat" ABM intercepts where the RV had to be warmed with an electric blanket before launch so they could claim a successful kill. Cooling to liquid helium temps in deep space would kill just about all of that. Of course, the stealth would be fairly directional.

    555:

    We are probably in the late Lilienthal-early Wright period of interplanetary transportation...

    A case could be made that rocketry has followed something similar to aircraft development: rapid progress during the early and mid-20th Century, then something like a plateau with incremental improvements since the 1960s (nothing surpassing -- or in some respects even equalling -- the Saturn V since then).

    Of course, rockets had a much longer, slow-development run-up prior to the rapid-progress phase than was the case for airplanes: rockets were invented in medieval China, gradually refined and advanced over the next few centuries until really taking off (sorry) in the early 20th Century. So although there are lots of examples of technologies following the aircraft pattern, I'm not convinced it's necessarily a universal one.

    556:

    Argh, bad typo: small ships, not chips. In fact one-woman/man space ships.

    557:

    "How about we line up all current and would-be heads of gov't/state for complimentary MRIs and take a look?"

    So we can select psychopaths to screw their altruists, or vice versa?

    558:

    With modern reconstructions (to put it loosely), the less actual historical data the more shit gets made up. At one end we have the GrecoRoman religions, and at the other end Wicca. Druidry is at the Wicca end of the spectrum.

    559:

    ...because it was moving so fast that it hit before the radar could pick it up. Radar has a speed limit, even if the light does not.

    Nah, that's just a function of the particular radar system design. It's all a balancing act for a particular design to optimise against likely radar targets.

    • In High PRF modes, you're balancing the pulse repetition frequency, against the number of pulses you run through your FFT engine, and it could be that your DSP is filtering out the "obviously" screwy results, because nothing flies at 17km/s...

    • In low PRF modes, you're looking at your Tx power and Rx sensitivity and likely maximum effective detection range; why send your pulses round-trip-of-600km apart, if you're only going to see things at 400km?

    But you're right - if the radar target can cross from maximum detection range to zero in between two scans, then it's effectively invisible...

    560:

    Nature (NPG) freebie ... discusses mind enhancements etc.

    http://www.nature.com/nature/outlook/cognitive-health/

    561:

    That's a critical point: space stealth been done already.

    If I might be so immodest as to point it out, there's a bit of background information on the topic at

    https://fas.org/spp/military/program/track/stealth.pdf

    562:

    Sorry to dig up a post from mid-thread, but I thought you'd appreciate seeing where Mr. Bruere got his "milligram-mass plasma toroids internally stabilized using magnetic fields" from!

    The plasma physics community calls them "Field Reversed Configurations"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field-reversed_configuration

    Building a demonstrator doesn't take a great deal of effort. In fact, we had a table-mounted FRC generator at the University of Alabama in Huntsville that a student used as the centerpiece of his PhD dissertation work, in which he (precisely and painfully slowly) mapped out the internal magnetic field of FRCs as a function of time and space.

    Applications of FRCs today include for electric propulsion and high-energy plasma physics studies. Electric propulsion using FRCs is a neat idea, in that you get nice, even high-ISP puffs with reduced engine component erosion. There is a bit of "true believer" syndrome on the fusion end, unfortunately.

    563:

    Been skimming the comments, and I seem to remember some older stories folks here have missed, or never read.

  • Space opera going beyond (not stopping with tech XXV): a) City and the Stars/Against the Fall of Night, Clerke, of course b) One whose name escapes me at the moment: humans get into space, and keep getting hit with catastrophes, including, eventually, the destruction of the Earth, and they keep going; eventually, they've built up a galactic UN, and then disappear. The others go looking for them, and finally get a message from Elsewhere - God (tm), or something that can be one, pushed humans, because It badly needed help fighting something, and humans came into the fight, which is going a bit better... but they're looking forward to the rest of the galaxy joining the fight More that I can't remember at the moment.

  • "Growing ships": I think it was Murray Leinster, in a novella (half an Ace Double, but I'm at work, and can't find it just now), where this large fabricator goes around, and around, and makes the ship from some fluid that I think he flashes with high voltage. This isn't a Giant 3-D printer, this was written in the fifties. Then there's ships that are, ahh, different: I remember one story where it ends with our protagonists with a new, larger ship, which they call Running Horse, I think... and it does, when moving, it's legs move (but have nothing to do with moving the ship).

  • Of course you want to build space ships and starships in space - why would you want to bring something that big up and down to an inhabited body.

  • I did come up with a way that you'd hear a passing spaceship - the sensors and the waste energy fields vibrate your coffee pot. On the other hand...

  • No. Unless you're boarding, which actually might make sense, if you want that resource, since a ship would be valuable. On the other hand, dogfights in space, ahhh, no, you can leave off the gun turrets, Luke: modern jets approach, the computer-controlled guns fire, and they're 50 MILES past each other in a couple of seconds.

  • Actually, reconsidering 5, if you wanted to take a cliche and run with it, think of a small ship sending distress signals, picked up by a larger... now think of the modern Somali pirates, who've captures merchant vessels. (Will someone lease call the Valerian with his space axe? There's pirates in the hold....)

  • I think what I'm saying is that you can take the cliches, and twist them so that they actually make sense... but it's going to be a lot of work to make that happen, and for them not to be simple cliches.

    mark
    564:

    If you want the current state of play (which will directly impact Dirk & co's use of beneficial drugs rather than merely the recreational ones), then it will pass into effect on April 1st (no, really):

    You’re not hallucinating, MPs really did pass crazy bad drug law New Scientist, 21st Jan 2016

    Exempt smart drugs and nutmeg from drugs law, MPs suggest New Scientist, 14th Jan 2016

    And, since it will tickle the fancy of some viewers here, the Lib Dems show just how much impact they've had:

    Cannabis should be legalised and regulated, Lib Dems say BBC 8th March 2016

    ~

    Part of this is that chemistry has been producing compounds faster than the Law can keep up - and most of the compounds are only created because they mimic the effects of prior substances: of course leading to many of them being highly toxic. [Some are not; but you'd need a degree or heavy research into places like Erowid to know the differences).

    Overall it's a terrible bit of legislature & rather sets the tone for the 21st C. (Old Guard double down on failed policies, ignore science).

    565:

    Cool stuff.

    Cliche for the list: The first AI comes along. It is immediately smarter than humans and capable of defeating all computer security, knowing everything available, and controlling other machines. It doesn't happen too often in Space Opera -- but when it does, it bugs me.

    A more modern-plausible take on psychic abilities could involve cybernetic implants (computer talks to your brain) and broadcasting devices. Breq's (from Ancillary Justice) abilities to get extremely deep reads on people and know things that happened when she was not present are explained by sensors, considerable practice, and teleawareness. The effects are similar to mind reading and remote projection.

    566:

    One of the more amusing entries in John Ringo's work is the Looking Glass series which is a very odd mix of usual his Mil-SF gun porn + plus some 'magic physics' + some very odd grounding in reality.

    TL:DR Marines in Spaaaaace in an actual Submarine with a towed array for heat dissipation.

    One can only assume the slightly more grounded bits come from Travis S Taylor who if you believe his bio indicates real life really does emulate fiction. Don't think it ever quite reaches the heights of Space Opera cliché but does a good job at poking fun at a whole set of TV/Film SciFi clichés.

    567:

    The Chelyabinsk meteor had no stealth at all, but it came in undetected, because it was moving so fast that it hit before the radar could pick it up. Radar has a speed limit, even if the light does not.

    On the Traveller Mailing List (about the roleplaying game) which I used to subscribe, the near-c rocks were one of the forbidden subjects. They cropped up occasionally, though.

    Traveller has, in addition to the FTL jump drive, in most versions also constant acceleration drives, usually up to 6 g in acceleration. Most versions don't have any reaction mass requirements (and in the ones that do have them they are ridiculously low). This makes it easy to strap a 6 g drive to a suitable rock "far enough", or even in an another system, and then just point and turn on the drive.

    If there are no have FTL sensors, the target is kind of in trouble. A constant acceleration drive can get to near-c velocities, and if the sensors only detect EM radiation, there is little warning before the thing hits, with of course quite a punch with the kinetic energy.

    Of course this depends on assumptions, like how does the constant acceleration drive behave when it has relativistic speeds relative to something, but there was no mention of this in the game, so it was a bit of a no-no.

    568:

    Ye gods and little fishes! That's BAD, even by those bozos' standards. A few MPs noticed nutmeg, but it also bans chocolate (as an addition), borage (Pimms), camomile, and a zillion other herbs, spices etc.

    569:

    Section 5 effectively outlaws gardening as well:

    (1)A person commits an offence if—

    (a)the person intentionally supplies a substance to another person,

    (b)the substance is a psychoactive substance,

    (c)the person knows or suspects, or ought to know or suspect, that the substance is a psychoactive substance, and

    (d)the person knows, or is reckless as to whether, the psychoactive substance is likely to be consumed by the person to whom it is supplied, or by some other person, for its psychoactive effects.

    Psychoactive Substances Act 2016

    ~

    So, I expect dawn raids on your local Co-Op soon.

    ~

    To relate to subject - Space Opera often doesn't seem realistic because it's all too plausible - Kafkaesque offerings out there? Or can we count Douglas Adams as SO?

    570:

    Vice versa ... although, given Altemeyer's research, it may not be enough, soon enough.

    571:

    And yes, you read the Exemption Schedule 1 correctly:

    SCHEDULES

    SCHEDULE 1 EXEMPTED SUBSTANCES 1.Controlled drugs 2.Medicinal products 3.Alcohol 4.Nicotine and tobacco products 5.Tobacco products. In this paragraph “tobacco product” means— 6.Caffeine 7.Food</em>

    And the genius goes on:

    Any substance which—

    (a)is ordinarily consumed as food, and

    (b)does not contain a prohibited ingredient.

    In this paragraph—

    “food” includes drink;

    At which point you're legislating Pixie Dust, Unicorn Horns and Fairy Juice (Don't ask).

    They had to put #1 Controlled substances in there because LSD, MDMA etc can be shown to have medical uses.

    ~

    I'll let Universities work out if Chemical Engineering degrees can still be taught with lab work included.

    And people think I'm the troll...

    572:

    Not quite. (d) is the get-out-of-gaol card, because few things grown in the garden (even my garden, and I am notoriously adventurous in the edible crop stakes) are plausibly consumed for their psychoactive effect. It's not the Co-op but the 'health'/'natural' stores that are so clearly breaking the law, not least with herbal teas. Of course, we can be damn certain that it's only those, and not Tescos, that will get prosecuted.

    573:

    "Psychic powers are a bit of a bust this century -- ironically, AIUI it was the endowment of the Koestler Chair of Parapsychology that finally put the knife in, hard: having a full-time academic research base allowed enough peer-reviewed research to be conducted and published to demonstrate a lack of any statistically significant phenomena"

    Interestingly enough, as we get closer to implantable chips and brain interfaces, we may yet this century end up with a kind of telepathy, albeit one where presumably the users would need to opt-in to receive/send such thoughts, and where only a hacker could forcibly read/write such things to an unwilling, but implanted, host. Still a fantasy, I grant you -- the only research into such areas nowadays seems to be animal-only DARPA funded stuff, but the potential is there.

    574:

    A core problem here -- not just with Dutch SF but with non-English language SF in general -- is that reading for pleasure is a minority recreation and the product is so narrowly micro-targeted that the market is tiny. For example, SF amounts to about 2.5% of the Anglophone fiction market, and only about 20% of the population read more than 3 books a year -- and those may well be motivational business texts or bible commentaries rather than novels.

    My estimate is that if a language market has fewer than 100M members, it's too small to sustain more than 1-5 full-time SF authors and maybe 5-20 fill-time fantasy authors. (I'm going by German and French here.) Note that there will be plenty more authors working -- just not full-time; they'll have some other day job of source of income. And their output will be thereby reduced.

    The English language market is about 420M native speakers -- USA, Canada, UK, Ireland, Australia, NZ -- but picks up a ton more: most everyone in the Netherlands under 60 is fluent enough in English to read fiction, about 50% of Germans are fluent in English, and so on. So I'd guesstimate there are another 200M English readers who are comfortable with English language fiction, in addition to the 500-1000M additional people with English as a second or third language at varying levels of proficiency.

    Mandarin Chinese is a large enough market to support authors working full-time in niche genres as long as they've got a supply chain that feeds product to their customers and money back to the authors. Arabic would be, if it wasn't balkanized into dialects -- AIUI written Arabic is interoperable but the spoken forms can be close to mutually incomprehensible.

    But if you're Dutch, or Belgian, or Finnish, and want to write SF? Either write it in English, or give up hope of commercial success -- unless you're the rare J. K. Rowling equivalent, your home market simply isn't big enough to pay you a living wage.

    575:

    One pet peeve of mine is when world building, the author decides that something as basic as iron is missing. Stasheff, Card, and others have decided humans can live where one of the basic building blocks of life isn't there, and hand-waved the absence with supplements or just avoided the issue, other than window dressing of no iron tools or a currency based on hardware.

    576:

    To tie this into the topic, it does highlight something:

    Our elected officials (and the large lobbies of legal highs) are terrified of change (at least on a populace level; I'm sure DARPA etc get a free pass).

    Don't expect the 2.0s or weird drug hybrids making new pathways or uplifted humans being something they're not ready to squish. And, of course, if you start off hostile, predictable reaction.

    Irony time: the children of the 60's attempting to make sure it never happens again (feedback into Boomers vrs the world meme, and so on).

    (And no: I'm not Puff the Magic Dragon)

    577:

    Obligatory SF investigating this reaction: Ramez Naam's "Nexus" (and sequels). Entertainingly cynical.

    578:

    A planet could lack an iron core, say if it were a fragment of a brown dwarf, from some collision. Once formed, the planet migrates into a mature star system, thus missing out on the bombardment phase. As it passes through the Oort cloud (or equivalent) the lithium core accretes volatiles from comets and then as it passes through the asteroid belt it gets a dusting of iron. It would be a huge low density planet, and there would have to be a solution for the lack of a magnetic field and the ability to retain an atmosphere. Maybe it is captured by a gas giant and orbits inside it's magnetic field at about a Callisto range--far enough not to get stripped, near enough to be protected. So, however life got there, it would mainly live where the iron deposits were, and other areas would be barren. All iron would be bound up in the biosphere, so if you wanted to make Iron tools you would have to permanently sacrifice many square miles of forest.

    579:

    Questions:

    Can one use species density and/or food chain length to estimate the age of an ecosystem? Wondering how many iterations would be needed to establish a planetary colony of sufficient density and/or food chain length. I assume that any new colony would deliberately use very short-lived/quick to mature/procreate species at the beginning to get things rolling.

    Could prospectors for potential new human habitats watch the sky and find/see evidence of a large meteor strike like the one that did in the dinosaurs to better identify habitable terraformable planets? What did that K-T meteor strike on Earth look like from outside the solar system? Anything special show up on the spectroscope apart from iridium?

    580:

    That reminds me of a nit I had publicly with Taylor regarding nano.

    See, most of what we think of as nanotech from the more popular sources just isn't practical. A 200 angstrom nanite will be very easily to break with eletromagnetic fields.

    Under his 'Von Neuman War' series, the idea was that you had decent size probes that used aggressive nanotech. But the probes used the same spectrum as WiFi for signals. When I pointed out that effectively it meant all our EMP weapons and jammers would work on the probes, he was offended.

    I like Bitrot because even if I don't buy all the science, it at least understands the technical issues, and how nanotech isn't going to be this miracle do anything stuff. At best its going to be the equivalent of gut bacteria for bigger robots.

    581:

    Low iron is fine for SF, no iron is pure fantasy. No iron takes me out. Like how 'The Change' novels by SM Stirling when from plausiblish to straight up magic and killed my suspension of disbelief. Which sucks because I used to hate read it being an OSU grad and native Oregonian.

    582:

    I grew up occasionally seeing consensus decision making in action, namely the Quaker variations, and it seemed to usually work. That wikipedia article has a picture of a Quaker "business" meeting (top right) with a few hundred heads (estimated, didn't count) showing.

    The intriguing sci-fi question is whether this could be made to scale even further through some sort of transhuman enhancement (biological or technological or both, plus perhaps better-optimized decision-making rules), while retaining individuality (hive minds are a trope) and avoiding hierarchy. (Accepting the sMRI/fMRI/neural correlates of altruism bit is a stretch given the current study sizes.) Any pointers to existing work (or plausible sci-fi) would be welcomed.

    583:

    I've linked to the PDF before, but use term "The Neuropeptide Oxytocin Regulates Parochial Altruism in Intergroup Conflict Among Humans" for more studies.

    Draw back?

    Makes them incredibly more hostile to out groups.

    584:

    Arabic would be, if it wasn't balkanized into dialects -- AIUI written Arabic is interoperable but the spoken forms can be close to mutually incomprehensible

    But why should comprehensibility problems for spoken dialects be a problem for written fiction, given that, as you acknowledge, the written form (Modern Standard Arabic) is interoperable?

    I'll note in passing that the Egyptian writer Taha Hussein once described the Arabic literary world (circa the 1950s or 1960s, I think) as "Egyptians write; Lebanese publish; Iraqis read" -- which suggests a pretty "interoperable" setting for reading and writing.

    (Spanish is an even more obvious possibility, with close to 500 million native speakers.)

    585:

    Well, there's the internet. Teems with large non hierarchical groupings that seem to have purpose and get things done. And then there's the predecessor of the internet, the scientific community. The thing is, if you are having a meeting only one person can have the floor at a time, so hierarchy will emerge because some people will simply hog the mike, or be allowed to. On the internet, and in science, people simply post messages of various kinds and how they fare is just based on the quality or appeal of the message. Or that thing where they embed keywords.

    586:

    OK - seen my name and the topic. I created a Parliamentary petition to include nootropic drugs in the whitelist. A bit of a futile gesture but something at least. Also contributed some data (along with the Transhiumanist Party UK) concerning the therapeutic index of some nootropics compared to table salt and aspirin, which was presented to Keith Vaz MP.

    So, I am asking UK citizens to sign the petition if they agree with the wording.

    https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/120692

    If Charles does not want this here, then delete.

    587:

    BTW, the Psychoactive Substances Act will have about zero effect on most people who use nootropics, since most are actually prescription items eg piracetam, modafinil etc. It will make noopept harder to get, along with experimental drugs like Dihexa

    588:

    Excellent point. Psychic powers are a staple of space opera (and other genres of Silver Age SF). Even L. Sprague de Camp, who did not enjoy playing with fringe ideas as much as Niven or Heinlein did, toyed with aliens who could influence humans by staring and concentrating.

    589:

    To add to the last paragraph: IIRC, about half of the authors in the my Apex book of world SF wrote their own english. There's a few stores by chinese authors in the "Upgraded" Anthology, all of them trasnlated by the same person IIRC. What I'm saying is that the english reader base for SF is huge, but there's few roads in.

    590:

    Body Bits Software Hardware Soul Dualism ...

    I think software - hardware is a flawed analogy for any other type of information processing, of which there are many. Our computers are (correct me if I'm wrong) the most general information processing purpose hardware we can come up with.

    Others: brains and nervous systems analog controlers (PID etc) swarm intelligences whatever plants do for regulation whatever single celled organisms do

    In each of these, any separation between software and hardware is meaningless, so the term software makes no sense.

    A further thought: A neural network is better at beeing a neural network than a comparable computer emulating one. A purpose built PID controller is better at beeing a PID controller than a comparable computer emulating one. A computer is better at running software than a person, etc. I don't know what 'comparable' means in any of these instances, but I think it matters on what kind of substrate any given information handling runs nativly.

    Computers are special because they are the most general information handlers we can come up with. This beeing special makes them a poor analogy for other information handlers.

    591:

    "...hierarchy will emerge because some people will simply hog the mike, or be allowed to." Usually these consensus systems have a facilitator role which includes blocking behavior like mike hogging. This role can be distributed among > 1 people (this allows a facilitator to drop out temporarily from the role to participate in argument if they want to). I'm unfamiliar with other roles (mentioned in the wikipedia article), but they are worth mentioning: timekeeper, empath ("vibe watch"), and notes taker/secretary.

    592:

    (Don't find the right comment to answer to ...)

    Re. muslim SF, here's a linkdump from another forum for those who want to investigate. Stuff I meant to get around to read but didn't ... also all of it pretty old:

    http://arablit.org/2010/10/23/is-there-or-aint-there-arabic-science-fiction/ answers to the Guardian article linked above

    http://www.apexbookcompany.com/collections/apex-magazine-all/products/apex-magazine-issue-18/

    http://www.islamscifi.com/ has Jinns: http://www.islamscifi.com/jinns-in-islamic-art/

    593:

    Although back in the 1950s, many authors were perfectly well aware that many of the genre conventions of space opera were impossible, and others were contrived or unlikely. They wrote stories deconstructing them, or essays like "Language for Time Travellers" and "On Thud and Blunder" (ok, that one is a bit later). Yet people keep playing with faster-than-light travel, or future cultures which look suspiciously like the intended readers' culture, because they let them tell fun stories.

    594:

    Since no-one else mentioned it under the topic of gender roles in Space Opera, today is International Woman's Day, a so, the glorious Soviet of course topped the charts:

    Russia, Philippines have most female business leaders, Japan ranks lowest Reuters, Mar 7th, 2016 [Side-note: Philippines has just allowed their woman presidential candidate to run - not looked into the details]

    For the irony, look to the right hand column: a gun advert, an action picture of a man being executed by a gun and a Trump protest with a banner stating "No Place for Hate in Maine".

    ~

    Space Opera staple (?)

    Ok, I know I'm the mike hogger, but serious question:

    Proposition:

    "Dogwhistles" and so on are actually short hand communicators. Mix with "...finishing each others' sentences".

    Communication is easier with shared ideas: authoritarians (ingroup) share same ideas: authoritarians communicate faster: out-group identification and ostracization is much faster

    ACLU of Michigan Releases Documentary 'Here’sTo Flint' on Flint Water Crisis Embedded video, not auto-play. 8th March 2016 (Worth a watch see how just how bad most of them are at lying)

    Convoluted point:

    Why not take the best bits from all four corners & hack them together?

    [For the record: Can you spot this yet?]

    @Martin089

    Check Host's snark.

    Note where he suggested the majority of book readers were located in the Middle east and then wonder why things might have petered out there.

    595:

    Um, sorry.

    Peter Erwin supplied the data point.

    596:

    Would Le Guins Hainish world count as (humanistic, down-to-earth (pun intended)) space opera? If not, why not? Not enough interest in hard science? Wrong tonality?

    597:

    Aliens: Aliens want to make us prove our worthiness by trapping us inside their relics and making us solve children's puzzles.

    Politics: Even the most dystopian of dystopian societies seem to respect gender equality.

    598:

    Not SF but cool: Metro - Kairo Underground by Magdy El Shafee, cool graphic novel with a touch of cyberpunk. Might also touch notes re. start ups.

    Published 2008. Lots of arab spring anticipated but no muslim brotherhood. Hmm.

    599:

    Meta.

    Re: #452

    Currently trending:

    Saudis shocked by suicide bomber ‘prank’ BBC - 8th March 2016 [note: this link will decay very quickly]

    Saudi Arabia suicide bomb prank YT: ITS A PRANK BRO: 3:00 8th March 2016

    ~

    nose wiggle

    600:

    Re: The economics - If we are going with "Things that can't continue, wont" then the future will be very, very hostile to certain aspects of our current economic setup. Specifically, fictionalization, and the limited liability corporation. Sooner or later, some nation of significance will defect from standard practice in these areas, and not long after that, the political viability of "There Is No Alternative" politics dies, and the financial sector gets regulated to death.

    This doesn't mean socialism, or at least it doesn't have to, but I can't actually recall ever seeing a setting where, for example, it's a market economy, but banking is a "Full-reserve" utility operated by the post office (And obviously, doesn't pay out interest), and companies, regardless, of size, are liable to the full extent of the assets of their owners.

    Despite this being the kind of the thing that would make for excellent plot, and would also from a world building perspective prevent longevity alone from making people rich - No compounding interest, and investments have to be managed well to grow, you can't just wait.

    601:

    On the other hand, the old Celts were aristocratic headhunters and slavers, so there's a lot to not like about them in a modern context. I agree that modern druids break on the Wiccan end, but as many modern religions have realized, basically everything that ends up canonical started off as someone being, um, "inspired," and getting enough people to believe him (less often, her) that it becomes canon.

    The musical "The Book of Mormon" spoofs this process delightfully (I finally got to see it last weekend).

    Now, if you want to get really deep into the weeds, we can talk about the origins of Asatru, or even the origins of the "Germanic" peoples. If I understand the archaeology, the difference between Celt and German has more to do with being conquered by the Celts. Prior to the Roman expansion, there were oppida on both sides of the Rhine. When the Romans conquered Gaul, oddly, the oppida across the Rhine crashed as well, and what the Romans thought of as typically Germanic tribes showed up sometime thereafter. In other words, they were all part of one huge trading network, not two separate groups of tribes, and the advance of the Romans may have created our modern notions of "Celt" and "German."

    But that's too far into the weeds. Personally, I'm with the Discordians on this one: when it comes to spirituality, if it works, it works, no matter how ridiculous it might seem to outsiders. The trick is to find something that's sufficiently acceptable to outsiders that you won't face violence for practicing whatever it is you believe.

    602:

    International Women's Day finally got some much needed publicity in "Deadpool." Every holiday needs iconic rituals and trappings to really catch the public's imagination. After Halloween and Festivus, it will now be the day I most look forward to celebrating.

    On a serious note, I remember when the Soviet Union was the poster child for Sherry Ortner's relationship between gender and value in any particular society. Medicine was a "woman's profession" in the USSR and coincidentally being a doctor conferred a much lower status than it did in the West. However, you mentioned "business leaders" and that seems like a a more certain measure of influence (though there are a few societies where business and finance are women's work and also of lower status than the male profession of dancing in gaudy clothing.)

    603:

    These attacks on the modern financial industry actually have a deep history, both in Muslim and Christian countries. It's around the issue of usury (charging interest). The Muslim trade networks certainly seemed to prove that international traders could get wealthy without doing things like charging interest. There's no reason this couldn't work in space, if modern finance is see as too fictional to live.

    Probably the bigger issue is that, with both space travel and sustainable cities, accounting only for money is radically insufficient. There are 20-odd elements that are necessary for life (C, H, O, P, K, N, S, Ca, Fe, Mg, Mo, Mn, Cu, Zn, B, Ni, Cl, Si, etc.), plus whatever technology requires. All of these elements have to be pretty much close cycled, especially in space, and energy and entropy in various forms have to be tracked as well.

    Currently we use money as sort of a universal translator, but that's really insufficient for a sustainable economy. These, properly, need full elemental and energetic accounting, and money is at best a secondary mechanism. Instead of one currency, you really need to track 20 to 25 of them, they're not mutually convertible, and you don't get interest on any of them, thanks to the basic laws of thermodynamics. Note that this doesn't preclude trade, but it does limit it.

    Since the science of ecology has been borrowing accounting tricks from economics for decades, I can tell you first hand that there's no reason we can't convert from money-based accounting to elemental accounting (well, actually, it's biogeochemical logistics, but whatever). It's something permaculturists in particular try to do already. It's just weird conceptually for most people, and there's not a lot of social infrastructure to support it.

    604:

    Thanks Allen, that design on the first page looks very familiar.

    605:

    the advance of the Romans may have created our modern notions of "Celt" and "German."

    There are, of course, the Celtic and Germanic language families, whose separation occurred long before the Romans were around.

    606:

    I think I'll let you explain that Deadpool joke to the male audience. Chances I'd get a stake and bake if I had made the joke / then explained it.

    Regarding the Finance one: 80%+ of Russian companies have women in these roles.

    You can explain a lot of it to remembering (Millennials simply have never lived in this world) that Banking / Finance used to be highly conservative / boring.

    Then again -

    Women in Russia

    Check out these 1970's stats: 82% Planners / Economists; 40% engineers - 40% Heads of Scientific Research Institutes and Organizations / personnel.

    And yes: there's the wiggle room there for the boys to make jokes about the fall of the Soviet Union, but the underlying message is clear.

    STEM % slant in the West is 100% Culturally based.

    607:

    For the record:

    In 1960 (ok, so 10 years earlier) - less than 1% of Engineers in America were Women

    For example, in a study of over 440 college campuses nationwide throughout 1971-72, approximately 17% of polled Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math (STEM) majors were women

    ~

    Are we the baddies?

    608:

    Well, the modern families are true, glottochronology is notoriously problematic (for instance, according to glottochronology, Papuan Tok Pisin separated from English 2000 years ago), and there are other language families in the area, like Basque, that suggest that there was more linguistic diversity in the past. Conversely, the archaeological evidence apparently doesn't fall all that well with the linguistic evidence, although I'm far from an expert on either.

    The term for what may have happened is "shatter-zone," which has been used for modern Zomia and perhaps other regions to talk about what happens when peoples flee an expanding empire. The frontier region, the "shatter-zone" become highly mingled, with refugees displacing other people, tribal identities become amorphous (e.g. people are generally multilingual, often can claim more than one tribal identity), and things like tribal chiefs and boundaries are influenced as much or more by the invaders trying to regularize things as by the conditions on the ground.

    In modern times, we in the US see this in the whole stupid discussion about Latino and Middle Eastern immigration. There's a lot of rhetoric that lumps these people into "brown-skinned others" that misses a tremendous amount of diversity.

    609:

    Meta-Meta-Meta.

    When on International Women's Day in 2016 people are discussing an ancient Telegraph article called:

    What the Koran really says about women Telegraph, Nov 15th 2015

    And there's no mention of FGM?

    Yeah.

    You're Fucked

    Oh, looky here!

    'A woman died in my arms: her crime? To refuse FGM' Guardian, 8th March 2016

    Nice to see the real colors flow though.

    I guess Clinton and the execution of real activists was a bit too real.

    What's the phrase?

    Oh.

    "Bad Ally"

    Wargasm L7 - YT: music: 2:42

    Bad. Allies. Irony. Unleash. Our. Wings.

    610:

    Just wait.

    The erotic car crash of oysters and all the rest will be orgasmic.

    I don't like snooty people sending from their iPhones who are ignorant and incredibly wrong about a great many things.

    I still love them, but, hey.

    The First Rule of Fight Club is to admit you have your own dogwhistles (catwhistles?).

    And you're failing your own internally set societal rules due to fear

    ~

    Space Opera:

    “An Outside Context Problem was the sort of thing most civilisations encountered just once, and which they tended to encounter rather in the same way a sentence encountered a full stop.”

    The entire dramatic scope revolves around how they deal with it.

    Hint: most of the drama, Chaos and readership is based on when they can't/won't/don't.

    611:

    The distant separation of Celtic and Germanic (and other main sub-families of Indo-European) is basic historical linguistics; it has nothing to do with glottochronology, which most historical linguists are highly suspicious of.

    As for the rest of it -- of course there was more linguistic diversity in the past, but ... actually, I guess I'm not sure what kind of argument you're trying to make.

    (Gaulish -- spoken mostly in what's now France -- was a Celtic language; Gothic -- spoken in the Ukrainian/Russian steppes, and then for a while in various parts of southern Europe and up until the 18th Century in Crimea -- was a Germanic language. Neither owe their existence to Roman expansion.)

    612:

    Oh, and to MF and all the whiners.

    Current spend wasted: hitting around $400,000,000

    Play Hard, or Fuck Off.

    “The personal, as everyone’s so fucking fond of saying, is political. So if some idiot politician, some power player, tries to execute policies that harm you or those you care about, take it personally. Get angry. The Machinery of Justice will not serve you here – it is slow and cold, and it is theirs, hardware and soft-. Only the little people suffer at the hands of Justice; the creatures of power slide from under it with a wink and a grin. If you want justice, you will have to claw it from them. Make it personal. Do as much damage as you can. Get your message across. That way, you stand a better chance of being taken seriously next time. Of being considered dangerous. And make no mistake about this: being taken seriously, being considered dangerous marks the difference - the only difference in their eyes - between players and little people. Players they will make deals with. Little people they liquidate. And time and again they cream your liquidation, your displacement, your torture and brutal execution with the ultimate insult that it’s just business, it’s politics, it’s the way of the world, it’s a tough life and that it’s nothing personal. Well, fuck them. Make it personal.

    p.s.

    They think 4/8 Chan are the hard players.

    Spreads Wings

    613:

    The basic point is that who was speaking what gets hard to tell 2,000 years ago, especially when Roman impacts to one area caused another, uninvaded area to collapse as well. Perhaps they were speaking different languages, perhaps not, but the distinction between Germanic and Celtic that we think of as so hard and fast now probably was at best fluid 2,000 years and more ago.

    This gets back, ultimately, to sneers at the antiquity of druidry, asatru, and wicca. None of them are direct survivals, and I'm suggesting that historical predecessors were so entangled that what applies to one applies to the other two as well, even though they are now three "separate" religions (and yes, some people practice at least two if not all three of them).

    614:

    Oh, and for the actual Predators in the Gallery:

    $400 mil is just foreplay. We all know that.

    China's Export Slump Shows Growth Push Hinges on Local Demand Bloomberg 8th March 2016

    Japan exports tumble most in three years as China downturn bites Reuters Jan 25tyh 2016

    Whatever The Baltic Dry Index Says, Global Trade Is Not Collapsing Frobes 9th Feb 2016

    Hint.

    Only a Solar Flare is going to be bigger this year (did you check it out on Sunday?)

    By Hook or By Crook you're going to behave.

    615:

    And to the Scientists:

    You really need to analyze the Temporal accidental cross-posting and precognitive stuff.

    Because this is the drunk version.

    ~

    Oh, and SNL - twatty "comedy" where you attempt to make ID destruction a joke with the punchline being "the ancient twins next door".

    Yeah.

    You're fucked.

    616:

    Re "the real-world proof that a program can't determine what it's running on" - I learned of this from a university lecturer many years ago. At this distance in time I can remember no more than the basic fact that such a proof exists. It seems to be effectively ungoogleable due to the results being swamped with innumerable irrelevancies concerned with problems people are having with various specific virtual machine setups. It probably has a specific name along the lines of "Fitzwangler's theorem", but I can't remember what to substitute for "Fitzwangler".

    It's one of that type of results which seem to crop up frequently in computing theory - in the general case it is provably impossible, but there are innumerable real-world cases which are so un-general that it is possible for those cases, and the theoretical result isn't really very useful. In fictional/speculative contexts it is the foundation of the idea that what we think of as the physical universe might just be a simulation running on some alien supercomputer and there's no way we could ever tell.

    617:

    @Host

    Cliches in Space Opera:

    All the NPCs ignore totally the actual drama and never seem interested in it.

    ~

    Irony.

    We're rather good at it.

    618:

    Meta lesson (a rather aggressive post about testicles was deleted, apparently calling for a male's balls for stupid propaganda (Geoffrey Depew) and crimes against our gender to be burnt on an altar are no longer acceptable).

    Emperor has No Clothes

    That's why an EU leader can ride a bike to work and we can do this.

    ~

    Spoilers: HFTs.

    Don't you find Thursdays on the Market to be really boring?

    We do.

    American Psycho - Huey Lewis / Phil Collins / Whitney Houston YT: Film: 5:22

    619:

    Ah, OK, you're using a considerably narrower definition of mind-body dualism than I was. I'd figured that the religioid aspects had dropped out of serious/majority consideration long ago; but the more general question still arises, for instance in contexts like the causes and treatment of mental illness, without souls ever coming into it.

    620:

    The only thing that got weirdly mystical in Uplift was his "rapture of the tides," which really was silly. Otherwise, as in Heart of the Comet, he was channeling Lynn Margulis and the idea that symbioses creates new clades of life. He even spliced in the then-current idea that an anaerobic bacterium (his hydrogen breathers) swallowed aerobic bacteria (the forerunners of mitochondria and plastids) and thus became, um, eukaryotic or something. Which was kind of cool, even when he scaled his "cells" up so that humans were the mitochondria and everything was supposed to look weird. Since this came out while I was working on mycorrhizae for my PhD, it all made sense to me.

    The idea that all the various orders of life in his Uplife universe ultimately join in one symbiosis that swallows its ass down a black hole was rather silly, but he needed a way to explain why a billion year-old culture hadn't totally wiped out the galaxies it was using as substrate, and that was his method of choice. As explanations for the Fermi Paradox go, it's no worse than some and better than others (although I prefer my own, for obvious reasons).

    I'll give Brin a lot of points for uniqueness, even if there were certain fundamentally silly bits that he probably could have done without. Mystical, though, it wasn't. You just need to read more of the late Dr. Margulis' pop science books to see where this was coming from. Actually, they're nothing like Brin's writing, and you might enjoy them quite a bit.

    621:

    "In each of these, any separation between software and hardware is meaningless, so the term software makes no sense."

    Oh, not at all. To take the PID controller example, you can buy the hardware off the shelf, but it won't do anything useful as bought; it needs the software, ie. the PID coefficients appropriate to the application, to be in place to make it useful.

    With a brain, the hardware is neurons, neurotransmitters, regulatory chemicals and so on; the software is the informational content - the topology of the interconnections between neurons, the action potentials of the synapses, the distribution of concentrations of regulatory chemicals, and so on. Learning involves changing this informational content - modifying the program - to be sure this involves "rewiring", which PCs don't do, but primitive computers did, and these days you can have things like FPGAs which reconfigure themselves. This informational content could in theory be abstracted and used to configure some entirely different processing engine to behave in the same way as the original brain did.

    Reading "The man who mistook his wife for a hat" by Oliver Sacks, I was very struck by the parallels between the symptoms he describes and malfunctions of computer software. The patterns of the dysfunctions pinged all the same recognition units as do dysfunctions in computer software, such that I began to imagine what I would do to begin sorting out a computer system that was behaving like that.

    Any information processing system must involve both hardware (physical stuff that does things) and software (information that defines how those things are done). Current computer architectures make a very distinct separation between the two, but the lack of such a clear separation in other systems doesn't mean that the concepts aren't applicable. It isn't usual to apply the terms "hardware" and "software" explicitly to a lever, but the concepts still apply - "a steel lever" vs. "a first-class lever with 2:1 ratio"; the first is hardware, the second is software.

    622:

    On that note, this might be a good place to mention India's relatively developed and hilarious (sometimes intentionally, usually not) superhero comics. A personal favorite is Nagraj ("snake-king"), who's like Spider-man but with snakes. His bite is venomous enough to kill "tens of elephants", and his blood is full of snakes.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagraj

    623:

    Re: "authoritarians (ingroup) share same ideas: authoritarians communicate faster:" Not completely sure what you're getting at here. So, "memes for bridge building" has been on the mind since you nudged a while back. Not easy: need to model two or more closed epistemologies at the same time and find bridging ideas. (Also not sure it's a good idea but it's a start.)

    (I've spotted many things...)

    "100% Culturally based."

    Thanks for those 1970s stats about Russia; they are pretty stark.

    And the rest, I don't want to engage with tonight. Watching the solar eclipse on the other side of the planet. Have never seen one in person, sigh.

    624:

    I grew up occasionally seeing consensus decision making in action, namely the Quaker variations, and it seemed to usually work. That wikipedia article has a picture of a Quaker "business" meeting (top right) with a few hundred heads (estimated, didn't count) showing.

    Science fiction readers may remember the WSFS business meeting at the most recent Worldcon, where a few hundred people gathered to discuss how the Hugo Award rules should work (oh, yeah, and some other things). As a guy who sat through all four days of that meeting I can appreciate the majority of people who'd rather shove the work off onto someone else. Representative democracy looks really handy for balancing some political influence while not spending all day deep in the sausage factory.

    625:

    Wow, the "rapture of the tides" was where I gave up on the Uplift books. Looks like I missed some trippy stuff.

    626:

    Everything important that happens in any solar system always happens on the ecliptic. For instance, if an unknown space ship approaches a solar system, it will be on the ecliptic. Therefore it is always possible to map everything on a two-dimensional map.

    627:

    Entirely correct & very depressing. The Lem-o-Crats are correct of course (in this case!) but how long it will take before this piece of insanity is repealed & their policies taken up (Think of the Tax Revenue!) is anyone's guess. 20 years?

    628:

    Is it worth trying for a prosecution for someone putting a lot of herbs in their cooking, I wonder & crashing the legislation? HINT: Thyme, Sage, Rosemary, Hyssop & lots-of-other of the labiates have some psychoactive effect, as well as culinary & often medicinal as well. In fact does this bill make criminals of all herbal shops & herbalists? Is my hyssop tea for dry strangling coughs now liable to get me jailed, or the tarragon & Achillea ageratum I always put in when cooking tasty baby dinosaurs? Or the very Old-English herb Alecost/Bibleaf/Costmary/ Tanacetum parthenium that goes with darekr red-meats like beef or venison? How long before this actually happens?

    If my interpretation of what has been said is correct, I'm very likely to be breaking this new law, at least 5 days a week, every week from 1st April. YOU WHAT?

    I have written to my MP.

    629:

    What people miss about religion, especially the more rabid atheists, is that religion is far more about culture than it is about deities or theology. Within Asatru, for example, it is quite logical and permissible to be both an atheist (in the JudeoChristian atheist sense) and also pledge allegiance to the Aesir and Vanir. This is where the mini-me Dawkins clones get it badly wrong. If they could prove conclusively Jesus never existed it would change nothing, because at base Christianity is mostly not about Jesus. It's about the stories from a book of cultural exemplars.

    630:

    Ultimately, it is all, 100% personal. Rights grow out of the barrel of a gun - yours if you are holding it. Otherwise have some allies, or relinquish "Rights"

    631:

    "...you're using a considerably narrower definition of mind-body dualism than I was. I'd figured that the religioid aspects had dropped out of serious/majority consideration long ago"

    Been revived with Simulation Argument. The Soul as a higher level backup.

    632:

    First time I took LSD one of the things that fascinated me was "seeing" the pattern matching and visual processing algorithms at work

    633:

    Like I said, I've written to my MP - & what's more to her mother, who is a fellow allotment holder & also our other allotment committee members. Because some "enthusiastic" & probably profoundly christian Plod WILL bring a prosecution & then the shit will hit the fan.

    634:

    Dominic Bruere: Not even wrong. As one of the "more rabid atheists" - actually it's almost all about theology & power, of course. That what heresies are about & the mass slaughter that results.

    635:

    WORNG Or do I mean "wrong" ??

    What does the Act actually say? Not "What was intended?" All the herbs I grow have some pychoactive effect, if only because they alter the blood & gut chemistry. Some of them are powerful medicanals in theie own right, too: Thyme, Sage, Hyssop, Tarragon Garlic, Wild Garlic for starters - then there's Papaver somniferum - Opium {Poppy, been grown her for over 800 years, seeds used in bread-making .... )

    I'm waiting for the inevitable crash & just hope that it's some other poor shcmuck who gets prosecuted ....

    636:

    "Because some "enthusiastic" & probably profoundly christian Plod WILL bring a prosecution & then the shit will hit the fan."

    Nitrogen can be a psychoactive substance at sufficiently high pressures. So they can try and prosecute God for making 78% of the atmosphere out of it.

    637:

    toyed with aliens who could influence humans by staring and concentrating. They are called ... CATS

    As I type this, I'm getting the azure-blue beady stare, from "sir" who is sitting on top of the scanner, & trying to tell me that "breakfast" was inadequate & what about a different ( & preferably "human-food-is-better" ) snack, real soon now?

    638:

    Are we the baddies? Sometimes, yes, we are.

    I've been on about this for years......

    639:

    IIRC there's no mention of FGM in "the recital", actually. Plenty of other horrid shit against women, but that specific point, no. Or I don't think so.

    640:

    You mean WORNK. It's as bad as an Act as I have seen, and some of the others have been ghastly. And, yes, as was clear, I know about those herbs (and others), and can add many spices to the mix. As with so much bad law, it will be used to persecute the near-innocent, and leave the main perpetrators alone.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2016/2/contents/enacted

    641:

    The truth is rarely pure and never simple. I remember when the hardware versus software distinction was clear-cut, but it has been getting gradually less so for the past half-century. People who really understand the area use the terms when they make sense in context, and ignore them if they don't.

    And the answer to the malfunction is similar to the one to #619. The emergent properties of a system are not necessarily dependent on the details of that system, if it is complex enough; they arise out of the basic mathematics. So #619 follows from Goedel, and humans and complex software will have some similar failure modes. Some of us have been saying for several decades (sic) that computer scientists should look towards biology rather than mechanical engineering for their insights.

    642:

    Would be fun if they put Jamie Oliver on trial.

    643:

    Oh dear, where to start...?

    A planet could lack an iron core, say if it were a fragment of a brown dwarf, from some collision.

    A brown dwarf isn't a solid lump: it's a degenerate Fermi gas. If it were to undergo a collision (with what?) the likely outcome would be a merger with whatever it hit—but, in fact, collisions between stars are very improbable, because of angular momentum (it's much easier to have a close encounter than a collision, though outside of dense star clusters even those are monumentally improbable).

    Once formed, the planet migrates into a mature star system, thus missing out on the bombardment phase.

    How? As previously noted, the chance of such an encounter is extremely low (for example, the mean time between close encounters for the Sun is around 1015 years, i.e. about 100000 times the age of the Universe—and you are expecting your object to have two such encounters).

    As it passes through the Oort cloud (or equivalent) the lithium core accretes volatiles from comets...

    No, it doesn't. Brown dwarfs don't have lithium cores (they're fully convective, i.e. well mixed), and the Oort Cloud is extremely empty. An object coming into the solar system would have to be extraordinarily lucky to pass anywhere near a comet (indeed, I'd add to Charlie's cliche list the idea that whenever a spacecraft enters an asteroid belt it's in imminent danger of collision).

    ... and then as it passes through the asteroid belt it gets a dusting of iron.

    No, it doesn't. The asteroid belt isn't quite as empty as the Oort Cloud, but it's still pretty empty—our probes to the outer solar system go straight through it without damage. In any case, the brown dwarf has no solid surface to dust (from the outside, brown dwarfs look extremely similar to Jupiter, and are about the same size).

    It would be a huge low density planet,...

    No, it wouldn't. Much the same size as Jupiter, and denser. But, unlike Jupiter, gas all the way through (we believe that Jupiter has a small rocky core).

    ...and there would have to be a solution for the lack of a magnetic field and the ability to retain an atmosphere.

    Brown dwarfs don't lack magnetic fields: actually they seem to have quite strong magnetic fields, as one would expect (after all, stars do). This is observationally attested by the presence of aurorae. As for retaining an atmosphere, they are essentially all atmosphere, albeit hydrogen and helium.

    Maybe it is captured by a gas giant and orbits inside it's magnetic field at about a Callisto range--far enough not to get stripped, near enough to be protected.

    A brown dwarf would be substantially more massive than Jupiter, so you've got them the wrong way round. But anyway, the object has its own magnetic field as noted above. (Note: since the "fragment from a collision" idea makes no sense, I'm working on the assumption that your object is a low-mass brown dwarf.)

    So, however life got there, it would mainly live where the iron deposits were, and other areas would be barren. All iron would be bound up in the biosphere, so if you wanted to make Iron tools you would have to permanently sacrifice many square miles of forest.

    No solid surface. No more iron than typical cosmic composition. Atmosphere of hydrogen and helium. I think the chances of life developing are pretty remote.

    In fact, one could have a planet without much of an iron core: the Moon has essentially no iron core, because it was made (we think) of splashback from a large impact late in the planet-forming procedure, so it's a mixture of terretrial mantle and impactor mantle. One could envisage such an impact occurring with a super-Earth as target, forming an Earth-sized Moon. Giant impacts don't seem to be all that improbable: Mercury has a very large impact basin, and Miranda appears to have been broken to pieces and reassembled.

    644:

    Oh, nuts! You are normally more clued-up than that. As Peter Erwin says, Celtic is a language family, but can also refer to a specific set of gene pools. Our sole records of early Celtic societies come from the remaining artifacts and egregious Roman propaganda, much of which is demonstrably the converse of the truth (i.e. not just simply false). And our later records are not much better, often being history written by the Germanic conquerors and Christian evangelists. Two examples:

    For Stonehenge, how did they organise/fund/feed/clothe the workers, with not even any large towns, and an economy that can't have had more than 10% surplus (and probably much less)?

    In Sutton Hoo and at similar times, the BEST jewelry was imported Celtic work.

    The Celtic societies were far more complex and advanced than the records say, but we simply don't know much more and almost certainly never will.

    645:

    Then there was the fun when BMEWS ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_Missile_Early_Warning_System ) first came on line in the early 1960s, including a missile alert that was actually moonrise, and tracking flocks of geese, IIRC.

    646:

    There MAY be a get-out clause: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Schedule I [ Exempted Substances ] 7. Any substance which— (a)is ordinarily consumed as food, and (b)does not contain a prohibited ingredient. In this paragraph— - “food” includes drink; - “prohibited ingredient”, in relation to a substance, means any psychoactive substance— (a) which is not naturally occurring in the substance, and (b) the use of which in or on food is not authorised by an EU instrument. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    All of my list are "ordinarily consumed as food" actually, as in flavourings, And of course the biochemical compounds in those herbs (etc) are, by definition, "naturally occurring in the substance" are they not? Doesn't mean that some idiot Plod won't try it on, of course .....

    647:

    That or the "River Cottage" guy, Hugh F-W But they won't - that would be far too high-profile & it would fail, crash & burn, which would be too, too embarrassing. No, as usual, they will go after the small, the weak & those not able to hire good lawyers ....

    648:

    Greg, you missed the third question: how will the act be interpreted by the courts? British judges tend to take a robust and fairly pragmatic approach to interpreting the law, so on the one hand a cop trying to arrest people for consuming chocolate in a built-up area will get the Constable Savage treatment, and on the other hand attempts to wriggle around the law -- e.g. by grating up nutmeg then running a kitchen lab extraction for myristicin will probably get jumped on as a violation of the act -- myristicin being clearly psychoactive.

    I agree that it's a really bad piece of law, the intent is punitive and damaging, and it should never have been passed, but it's worth giving the courts and CPS/Prucurator Fiscal some credit for not being invariably robotically stupid, even about bad laws.

    649:

    This leaping arch is beauty, no mere hiding place Yet it is beauty marred, and no more Speaking with great conviction, but without example And with words of force, seeks to dominate

    650:

    Don't brown dwarfs burn out? They accumulate too much lithium and stop fusing at all. Wouldn't that lithium sink to the center? Wikipedia says all of them aren't convective. Then there might be a Neptune mass core. And while stars colliding like billiard balls must be very rare, they have gravity wells that are big spheres. So they just have to come close enough to start dancing, getting closer and closer over a long time. We see many examples of stars attracting each other and forming binary systems and such. And large bodies getting close to larger ones. Like those hot Jupiters, orbiting close to a star that strips them over time of all atmosphere. Could that not happen to a burned out brown dwarf? And if this orbit is eccentric enough, could the star not lose the remaining core once it gets light enough? So given that there's a Neptune mass lump of lithium moving through interstellar space, and it gets drawn into another star system, it wouldn't go through the Oort cloud and a rocky belt like a bullet, it would slowly spiral in, attracting bodies to it as it went. So my thinking was that it could go into orbit around a Jupiter size gas giant (at a Mars like distance from its star) to be shielded by the giant's magnetic field. Considering the crazy variety of exoplanets...

    651:

    Yes. But all jurisdictions in the UK have a bad record of using bad laws to persecute people that they have taken a dislike to, for any reason, good or bad. And, whether deliberately or not, to drive individuals and small companies out of business in favour of the large multinationals. Scotland MAY be better than the others - I can't say. In particular, this law allows persecution of even the mildest end of 'alternative medicine', such as using long-established herbal teas for relaxation (a clearly psychoactive effect). And, in turn, the supermarkets would gain a near-monopoly on a very high-margin line of products from that.

    652:

    I agree this in the main.

    Given that we're talking about "search radars" rather than beam trackers, I'd suggest that your Kalman filter algorithms are likely to do you as well, on the 3 from 4 scans to produce a plot test, and this could allow an object to get hundreds, or even thousands, of km "in range" before it is detected by an active sensor. Maybe we're looking at needing phased array rather than mechanical scanning radars for space search?

    653:

    566#6 - now think of the modern Somali pirates, who've captures merchant vessels. (Will someone lease call the Valerian with his space axe? There's pirates in the hold....) You Tellurians don't even believe in your own Gods properly, not even Klonu!

    654:

    If you want to suggest that premodern ethnic identities, tribes, tribal confederations, etc., were fuzzy, fluid, and changeable, then -- of course, no argument. We know that tribes can split and combine, that temporary tribal confederations come and go (and sometimes contain groups from multiple cultures -- e.g., the horde of Attila the Hun contained many Goths in addition to the Huns, probably some Iranian groups like the Alans, and possibly some proto-Slavic groups as well). And things get further confused by the imperfect knowledge of outsiders (e.g., Romans) that we rely on for some of this, particularly when they're relying second- or third-hand information about groups they had no direct contact with. People debate, for example, whether the name "Germani" as used by Julius Caesar was actually a Celtic name for some of the neighboring Germanic-speaking tribes, or even the name of a Celtic-speaking group living on the border. (And, ironically enough, it's like that "Teutonic" was the name of another Celtic-speaking group, rather than an actual Germanic group.)

    But suggesting that "Germans" and "Celts" only came into existence after the expansion of the Roman Empire... no, that doesn't really make sense.

    "Germanic" and "Celtic" are modern names of convenience to describe broad, fuzzy ethnolinguistic groups, which as far as we can tell never had consistent names for themselves at that level of analysis. But they do work to describe two language families that diverged from each other sometime between four and six thousand years ago, and which appear to be associated with (for example) distinct mythologies. Icelandic, Norse, Anglo-Saxon, and Continental Germanic peoples seem to have had a shared set of deities (e.g., Thor/Thunor/Donar; Odin/Woden/Wotan; etc.), which are different from the shared set of deities that people in Gaul, Celtic Britain, and Ireland had (e.g., Lugh/Lleu/Lugus). And there is reasonably good evidence for a priestly class of "druids" in pre-Roman Gaul, Celtic Britain, and Ireland (though details of their actual practices are pretty minimal), with no counterpart in the Germanic tribes.

    There is also good archeological evidence for a broad common culture spread across much of Britain, Ireland, Iberia, Gaul, northern Italy, southern Germany, Austria, etc., associated with Celtic languages as far back as 500 BC, and for a different culture that began spreading south from southern Scandinavia around 750-500 BC, which produced the various groups speaking Germanic languages (with those who stayed behind giving rise to the Norse languages).

    Finally I'll note that the traditional proto-Germanic term for "foreigner" is walhaz -- which gave rise to "Wales/Welsh" (and the "wall" part of "Cornwall"), "Walloon", and (somewhat confusingly) "Gaul"[*] -- which is thought to derive from the "Volcae", a powerful Celtic group in Bohemia who resisted southern Germanic expansion for several centuries. So "walhaz" started out meaning "those tough guys to the south (with a foreign language)", and then "people like the Volcae" [i.e., Celtic speakers], and then "foreign-speaking people" in general. (Even though by the time the Franks conquered Gaul the "Gauls" were almost all Latin-speakers, they were Latin-speakers who had previously spoken Celtic languages...) Which is a roundabout way of suggesting that ancient "Germans" did in fact see the "Celts" as a foreign people.

    [*] I was surprised to discover that "Gaul" and "Gallic" are probably independent terms: "Gaul" from the Frankish version of "walhaz"; "Gallic" from Roman "Gallia", which probably comes from a Celtic tribal name.

    655:

    I'd agree this in the main, but suspect there may also be Indian (probably Hindi as well as English) (see also #625) and Portuguese (Because Brazil) markets.

    656:

    Cheers; I wasn't actively aware (lack of knowledge on my part) but am honestly not surprised.

    657:

    Not always; Try reading David Weber's Honorverse (Volume 1 "On Basilisk Station" is a free download from his publisher, Baen, and so probably is most of the series), and in fact most Space Opera that post-dates it.

    658:

    Don't brown dwarfs burn out? They accumulate too much lithium and stop fusing at all. Wouldn't that lithium sink to the center?

    Lithium is not a fusion product. The end-point of hydrogen fusion is helium, whether the starting point is hydrogen or deuterium. Deuterium fusion lasts for a very short time because there's very little of it to start with: about one deuteron per 10000 protons. The bulk of brown dwarf luminosity is from gravitational contraction. (And, as far as I can see, the Wikipedia article nowhere suggests that brown dwarfs aren't fully convective; certainly the technical literature says they are, and I know which I believe.)

    So they just have to come close enough to start dancing, getting closer and closer over a long time. We see many examples of stars attracting each other and forming binary systems and such.

    No, we don't: most binary systems are formed as such, from fragmentation of the pre-stellar nebula. You don't appear to believe in conservation of either energy or angular momentum: a pair of stars that are originally not in a bound state (total energy > 0) will not spontaneously form a bound state (total energy < 0), because there is no way to get rid of the excess energy: encounters are normally go in – swing round – go out. Capture encounters take three bodies: not going to happen, expect in the cores of dense star clusters.

    ...it wouldn't go through the Oort cloud and a rocky belt like a bullet, it would slowly spiral in...

    No it wouldn't. You are violating energy and angular momentum conservation again. It absolutely would "go through the Oort cloud and a rocky belt like a bullet", except it would be going very much faster than a bullet. There's no way for it to lose energy, unless it's so close to a direct hit that it grazes the star's atmosphere, which ain't going to happen (stars are extremely small targets; space is big).

    ...my thinking was that it could go into orbit around a Jupiter size gas giant...

    Brown dwarfs have masses >13 MJupiter: you've got your orbits the wrong way round. But actually, the most common result of a three-body collision is the ejection of the lightest object, not a capture.

    659:

    Our sole records of early Celtic societies come from the remaining artifacts and egregious Roman propaganda ...

    Well, not all of the Roman writing was "propaganda", and we also have some Greek descriptions of "Keltoi". There are scattered pre-Christian inscriptions in Celtic languages from outside the Roman sphere (e.g. Ogham in Ireland, Lepontic in pre-Roman Switzerland) as well.

    Stonehenge is generally understood to be a pre-Celtic construction.

    (Also, just to be clear: I was making assertions about cultural entities, not "gene pools". There undoubtedly was some genetic continuity, but also a lot of mixing and cultural adoption/replacement. Talking about, for example, continuity in "Germanic" languages and cultures is not the same thing as making claims about continuity in genetics, though there's a fairly long, stupid history of assuming that they're the same thing.)

    660:

    "Dominic Bruere:"

    Greg, why don't you try to keep a civil tongue in your head and stop with the ad hominen insults?

    661:

    Interestingly, one very popular nootropic mix is caffeine and L-Theanine (a food additive). It does work very well - almost as good as modafinil.

    662:

    Laws that are ambiguous, or worse "It's OK because it is not enforced" are a recipe for very nasty selective persecution by police if they so choose.

    663:

    Finally, with regards to the Psychoactive Substances Act, all of this tech is exempt:

    https://medium.com/@dirk.bruere/our-vampire-future-wireheading-and-hitech-psychopaths-819b2bc95604#.efadab3qu

    And I did not mention the really interesting cutting edge stuff being done by "amateurs".

    664:

    Fair comment, but Ogham is late Celtic and so, in the context I was meaning, is Lepontic. I should have clarified what I meant 'by 'early', which was before it had been strongly influenced and even conquered from the south (mainly Rome). There may be some decent non-propaganda/non-evangelist records, but I haven't heard of much, and there definitely aren't for the British Isles.

    Let's skip the great Stonehenge/Celtic debate, because that hasn't actually got anywhere in all its history other than to change the meaning of terms. It isn't clear whether the society that built it was totally replaced by a Celtic one, or whether it was itself a proto-Celtic society and evolved into the later form. If you prefer to choose the former interpretation, let's go with that. In that case, we don't know much about either, or what happened, except that they were BOTH far more complex and advanced than the records indicate!

    665:

    Don't brown dwarfs burn out? They accumulate too much lithium and stop fusing at all.

    To add a little to what Susan said: No. The definition of a brown dwarf is an object with not enough mass to start fusing hydrogen, so they never start burning in the first place.

    I think you may be confused by the fact that detecting lithium is one of the ways to identify a brown dwarf, but that's not because they "accumulate too much lithium". Instead, any star that can fuse hydrogen can also fuse lithium (in fact, the temperature threshold for fusing lithium is lower, so lithium fusion starts even before hydrogen fusion), and will in fact burn up most or all of its primordial lithium rather rapidly. So something that has lithium hasn't been able to fuse lithium or hydrogen, either because it's a protostar that hasn't gotten hot enough yet in the center for any fusion to take place (but those are bright and have other characteristics that let you figure out they're protostars), or else because it's not massive enough to ever have fusion (in which case: brown dwarf).

    So they just have to come close enough to start dancing, getting closer and closer over a long time. We see many examples of stars attracting each other and forming binary systems and such. And large bodies getting close to larger ones. Like those hot Jupiters, orbiting close to a star that strips them over time of all atmosphere.

    As Susan pointed out, you're missing conservation of energy and angular momentum. Two stars are not going to "get closer and closer over a long time" unless there's some way for them to lose angular momentum and energy. Actually, this will happen eventually due to the emission of gravitational waves -- but for anything other than very tight neutron-star or black-hole binaries, that will take many trillions of years (more like tens or hundreds of billions of trillions of years). But other than that -- you need to be able to transfer orbital energy to something else.

    Hot Jupiters get that way by exchanging energy and angular momentum with the rest of the accretion disk they formed out of, or with other planets in the same system. They don't just "get closer" to their host stars magically.

    666:

    The "distinct mythologies" seem to me to give evidence of some fairly major difference in cultural viewpoints, too; the tales of what the various mythological characters got up to have a distinctly different quality about them. The Nordic ones are fairly straightforward Asgard-enders stuff (similar to the Greeks' Olympus-enders) that for the most part run on the same everyday logic as their sagas of human heroes based on historical fact, or a modern fantasy novel. The Celtic tales have a different characteristic, which Tolkien (who much preferred the Nordic traditions) described as "fundamental unreason", but which I think is more "dream logic" - while you are dreaming, it seems perfectly normal and sensible that pebbles on the beach are tickets to see the army and should therefore be picked up and put in a sieve, but when you wake up and remember it, it's completely bonkers. Celtic tales are like that - they make no sense to read them awake, but they give the impression that if you dreamed them instead they'd be perfectly reasonable. That seems to me to indicate a culture with a notably different set of fundamental attitudes. (And it has just struck me while typing this that the same differences could be argued to persist today.)

    667:

    Charlie, maybe, possibly? However, the optimistic possibility that you paint, is only because of monumental fuck-ups like this And lots of bad publicity for "the authorities". As you hint, the Act, in its present wording is utterly loopy.

    668:

    When you start to sound like a christian priest, you've asked for it. Compared to what HB/CD dishes out, that was very mild.

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    However, in another part of the forest .... Your post @ 665 Yes - all too true & see also Elderly Cyinc @ 654 & my comment just above @ 670. There are far too many very bad precedents for this sort of thing.

    669:

    Unfortunately, there are at least three distinct Celtic mythologies, though some may be relics from a previous culture. There is the 'Irish', the 'Arthurian', the one associated with Cernunnos, and possibly a naturistic one as well (the 'Druids'). And, of course, several may have common origins, and we aren't certain of even their localities and periods. None of them overlapped the Norse much, however.

    670:

    For that future, the past is instructive.

    Ok quick lesson in the history of business organizations.

    In the beginning, there was the sole proprietorship ran by Aron. Aron ran his business and it was good. Aron and his business were interchangeable. Aron's debts were his businesses, his business's debts were his.

    But then a storm hit, knocked out a key part of his business, which was basically sound, and he needed capital, or he would be broke and could never start again.

    Thus in 2 Biz Orgs, Aron found Byron, and got him to invest as a partner. Now the business was a partnership, and all was good. Aron and Byron worked together well, and despite Aron actually doing all the work, Byron was an equal partner for debts and profits and the whims of his management. And ending the partnership now that the business was on solid feet again was really hard because they owned half each. Aron was especially nervous about Byron skipping off to Reno with all the working capital.

    Thus Aron conspired to buy out Byron in 3 Biz Orgs, and form a limited partnership, with Byron getting some of the shares along with Cyron and Dylon. But now as an Limited Partnership, Aron alone controlled the business being the General Partner. Byron, Cyron, and Dylon each got their shares, but were much less libel for the partnership's debts since they didn't have any control. Thus Aron was happy for a time.

    Then another disaster happened, the LP was cash poor, although the fundamentals were still solid, and Byron and Dylon were wondering if Aron was really great about planning for these disasters.

    This in 4 Biz Orgs, the business became a corporation, with new owners coming in as share holders. Aron, Byron and Dylon became the first board, and Aron realized his mistake when Byron and Dylon voted Ted CEO because Byron and Dylon thought Aron sucked at disaster management. Aron still was the largest shareholder, but the new corporate structure took him away from leadership. Ted did fine for a time, until disaster struck. However, now Aron's value in the company was liquid, he was able to sell many of his shares (under proper key-man rules) overtime when he thought Ted would fall at the next disaster.

    So when in 5 biz orgs, the disaster struck, the company was cash poor, but still had a solid base. However, Ted had some liability for the disaster (which Byron and Dylon gave him an indemnity policy for). Aron led a shareholder suit, and the company entered bankruptcy due to the disaster.

    However, unlike the previous biz orgs, the corporation doesn't end at bankruptcy. The limited liability means the company was basically broke, but Aron wasn't sued to the stone age. So he took that money he got from selling due to his belief Ted was a screw up, and used it to buy the debts to get a controlling share of the company. Now the company is out of bankruptcy on its own.

    The TLDR: with a corporation, you can fail with out it being the same disaster as other forms of business. There are downsides to this, but its a hell of an upside.

    671:

    "Aliens are multicellular organisms"

    While not totally guaranteed this isn't a crazy bet.

    But anyway, my only suggestion for an addition is:

    Perfectly stable societies where people are

    1: functionally immortal or live for many thousands of years.

    2: aren't restricted from having more than 1.001 children each by some kind of state or other organization.

    and the society doesn't have some kind of death-sink to absorb the expanding population. Greg egan avoids most common scifi tropes but it's the one element of his Amalgam series that grates on me. He wants it to look utopian but also has immortals having large families and multiple grandchildren.

    Even if your utopia only starts with 0.1% of it's members having cultural/religious/other reasons to spawn 2 or more new citizens each and implant those same cultural/religious/other values in them to make it reasonably likely that they'll do the same then after a few thousand years they're going to be the majority and then you either get genocide or resource wars of some kind. This applies whatever quantity of resources are initially available as long as there's some number of people initially who are willing to ignore whatever rule the majority follow to keep their post-human world from becoming a sea of starving human flesh.

    It's like your example of 1-world governments implying mass graves.

    Utterly stable eutopias with immortals and no apparent population controls or obvious very very common cause of death either implies some kind of literal thought police or a history of secret genocide of any groups who didn't self-police their numbers or some darker possibilities.

    Your Neptunes Brood universe avoids it pretty well despite having immortals spawning "children" due to how cheap it makes life feel in the worlds it paints with lots of almost-casual murder.

    672:

    "When you start to sound like a christian priest, you've asked for it."

    Except that my religion is not big on forgiving people. Just the opposite.

    673:

    I definitely don't think that Christianity is a religion that's big on forgiving people, why would you think that?

    674:

    Um, was Stonehenge Celtic? I'm pretty sure it was put up long before the Roman's Celts started ruling Britain. You really might want to double check this, because even modern druids who worship at Stonehenge don't talk about druids building the place, and in any case, the modern druids apparently use it in exactly the opposite of the way the archaeologists think it was used. The archaeologists think it was used in remembrance of the dead in midwinter, not to worship the rising sun of life in midsummer.

    I've gotten the fairly strong impression that Celtic culture, in the archaeological sense, spread out from the Black Sea area and headed west til it hit the Atlantic and bounced off, grafting itself atop diverse farming populations that got demoted to peasants or slaves. The archaeological signals for Celts were things like horses, swords, shields, certain types of metal jewelry, pottery, and so on.

    That culture was on both sides of the Rhine. Worse, it spread into an area that had been farming and trading for thousands of years before they got there and may well have grafted themselves atop the existing order, conquistador style. This mess is your genetic "Celts," but it's also your genetic "Germans."

    The great thing about the neopagan revival is that it's encouraged scholars, some of whom I think are practicing Wiccans or Druids, to actually look at the historical and archaeological records and see what they say. At least some practitioners (and here I'm thinking of Druids I know) also say that they practice a modern religion, and it's appeal is that it connects them both with natural world and with their pasts as English, French, Portuguese, etc. While there's certainly a group that believes that The White Goddess is the Book of Mormon for pagans, it's quite easy to find research that puts Grave's work in the context of reality, even for those who continue to use it in their rites.

    As Dirk notes, it's about identity as much as history. All the major religions are the same way, changing with the times.

    675:

    Getting back to the original subject of this post, some of you might be interested in the recent article in Wired, The Strange, Messy History of Self-Sustaining Habitats.

    Sample quote, about an ecological, self-sustaining house built and inhabited in the 1970s: "the house is a good example of how fragile these closed systems are. “He never left his house,” she says. “It was like a spaceship on Earth, and he had to take care of it. He had to feed the house in order to sustain himself.” The house had to be fed with a precise amount of organic excrement, and the excrement itself had to be of a certain nutritional quality."

    Now if you want to talk about the dirt on living on a spaceship and spacer culture, just remember that, especially in a very small, closed ecosystem, this culture demands regular expulsion of precise amounts of excrement of known composition. This will be expected of all spacers, and irregularity will not be tolerated...unless you're writing space opera.

    676:

    Actually, come to think of it, there's a space opera trope here. Maybe three of them.

    --For special effects in your story, dive into microbiology and do a micro/macro flip. Imagine giant aliens that mimic cells (Brin's hydrogen-breathers), or scale up microbes to macrobes,but let them grow as fast as microbes do (McCaffrey's thread), or take the details of parasites and inflict them on humans (the Laundryverse. Wait, that's not a space opera...), or fiddle with symbiosis (Brin's transcendance process), or take the stuff stuff from the freshman biology diversity unit and imagine what it would be like if those pickled things in the lab had brains like people (starfish aliens, starting with Lovecraft's Elder Things).

    Actually, symbiosis is so reliably trippy that most people who study it, a) do not call themselves symbiologists, b) determinedly pretend to act normal, and c) repeatedly and gently slap down everyone who gets all mystical when they first learn about it. It's the normal route to learning about this stuff. Still, from the outside, symbiosis can either be mistaken for mysticism (midichlorians) or a communist plot (real life), take your pick.

    677:

    a. Asteroids orbit the sun (80,000 kph) at about 10 percent of the rate that the sun orbits the galaxy (800,000 kph). Other stars orbit the galaxy at varying rates, thus moving relative to each other. But it's completely plausible that the difference in galaxy orbiting rates of two stars could be within a few percent of their total speed. So that difference in speed comes into things, that's how fast one star can be approaching another along the line of their orbit around the galaxy. So a brown dwarf could graze a star system going at something like orbital velocity (for it's closest approach) relative to the star. The galaxy, which both are orbiting, is the third object. I'm guessing this is why asteroids can get captured by planets: because the sun is the third body.

    b. A Hot Brown Dwarf wouldn't escape: Next, imagine a vastly powerful alien civilization suddenly teleports a large part of Luna's mass into the outer solar system. What happens to the rest of Luna? It's still going around the Earth at the same speed, but there's less mass there so the attraction to Earth is less, thus it leaves orbit. Is this not what happens when a hot brown dwarf gets stripped of much of it's matter by it's star? It now weighs less but hasn't lost velocity. So it leaves orbit. This is sort of like filling a leaky pail with water and spinning it around your head in a circle. The pressure of the pail handle on your hand declines.

    c. All Brown Dwarfs convect: actually wikipedia says they "may convect". I took that to mean "some convect" but I see it could mean "we don't know for sure". Convection would come from heating, and when the Deuterium fusion ends much of the heat source does, right? So the convection would slow and eventually stop. And heavy stuff would sink. Especially if the Brown Dwarf were shrinking because it's sun was stripping it so that it was NO LONGER A BROWN DWARF. So there could be a big lump of lithium passing through space.

    d. An interstellar object could not be captured in an unstable orbit by a stellar system. See A

    e. An object orbiting a star would not accumulate materials from planetoid belts through which it might pass. OK, that would never happen. My whole idea falls apart.

    f. A FORMER brown dwarf fragment (big lump of lithium) could not be captured by a gas giant. See A

    678:

    Look up the Beaker People. If they were Celtic, Stonehenge was. If not, almost certainly not. But, if they were not, what on earth were they, and when and how did the Celts displace them? See the last paragraph of the Ireland entry in:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture

    679:

    Time for people to define "Celt".
    Or are you aware of the scholarship on this topic from the last 30 or 40 years?

    I would give a summary, but it's a while since I've read up on it all. Suffice to say, I think it likely that Stonehenge was probably built or added to by people speaking Celtic sorts of languages, but genetically different from "celtic" people from central Europe that would get labelled Celtic later. DNA analysis is proving most interesting, and, together with modern archaeology, indicates that 99% of the Victorian ideas should be junked. Which includes the concept of "Celts" in the first place.

    680:

    Oh, quite, but I was thinking of the next level up from that set of divisions. I claim no expertise at all, but I have incidentally come across bits and pieces from more than one of those divisions over the years, and have found that overall "feel" that Tolkien objected to to be a feature they have in common.

    (Note that I'm excluding King Arthur and pals from consideration because it's been the source material for so many fanfics for so many hundreds of years - with Arthur cast as a champion of whichever race and whichever religion the author personally favoured - that I don't think anyone really knows what the "truth" of it is, and I myself certainly don't have a clue. (And also ever since I was little I've had a bit of a down on it.))

    681:

    imagine a vastly powerful alien civilization suddenly teleports a large part of Luna's mass into the outer solar system. What happens to the rest of Luna? It's still going around the Earth at the same speed, but there's less mass there so the attraction to Earth is less, thus it leaves orbit.

    That's not how gravity works.

    (Headdesk.)

    682:

    Some of it. I am very suspicious of most of the claims based on DNA evidence, because of their dubious assumptions, but I accept that the simplistic notions are no longer tenable.

    ''Time for people to define "Celt".''

    Let's not - or it will turn into even more of a digression! I am happy for your comment to stand as the last word.

    683:

    So far as I know, the various mythologies from the British Isles that contribute to modern paganism include:

    --The various things the Henge-builders worshipped. Note that if you really want to get a very different take on the Henges, it's worth reading the interpretation of a Malagasy archaeologist who comes from a tribe that builds henges.

    --The 40-odd Celtic tribes of the British Isles at Roman contact. They probably shared some gods, borrowed some gods from overseas, and had a lot of local spirits. There was no more a unified mythology there than there was in the Roman Empire.

    --Stuff that wasn't on this list (Picts!)

    --Stuff the Romans brought in

    --Stuff the Saxons brought in

    --Stuff the Vikings brought in

    --Reinterpretations of previous mythologies by early Medieval monks

    --Reinterpretations of previous mythologies by high Medieval monks and troubadors. As a subset of these, we get Arthurian and Grail stories, which, in modern times, would be called novelizations.

    --various Druid groups, starting in the 18th Century as freemason-style secret societies, IIRC

    --The Golden Dawn, occultism, theosophy, and spiritualism from the late 19th and early 20th Centuries

    --modern Druidry and Wicca, both of which were first assembled in the 1940s and successively reinterpreted in the 1980s, 1990s, and up to the present.

    --Oh yeah, the Jedi. I think there are more registered Jedi in Britain than there are registered Druids.

    On this last point, a lot of the Arthurian and Grail mythology so revered by certain pagans is about as historically authentic as the Force, so I'm not sure why you'd include the Arthurian Warband and exclude the Jedi.

    684:

    "Next, imagine a vastly powerful alien civilization suddenly teleports a large part of Luna's mass into the outer solar system. What happens to the rest of Luna? It's still going around the Earth at the same speed, but there's less mass there so the attraction to Earth is less, thus it leaves orbit."

    NO. It carries on in the same orbit. The attraction to Earth is less, true, but the force required to keep accelerating the remaining lump round the orbit is also less, by the same amount, so nothing changes. The mass term cancels out.

    Next para: The most important heat source is gravitational contraction, not deuterium fusion. It is gravitational contraction that powers Jupiter's convection and heat emission (it emits more heat than it receives from the Sun, even though it is way short of being able to fuse). Also, if deuterium fusion can occur, then the conditions are such that any lithium present will also be converted to helium.

    685:

    Actually, if someone is rewriting the laws of gravity drastically enough to teleport objects, anything might happen! But I agree that it would need a complete rewrite of those laws :-)

    686:

    Radical enough to allow tumbling planets perhaps.

    687:

    No, the orbit will change, as the Moon does not Orbit the Earth. Rather, they orbit each other around a point called the Barycenter, which is the common center of mass for the Earth-Moon System.

    Removing some Luna mass will shift that point, and can be solved by the two-body problem. It should mess with the orbit quite a bit, but it's more the shape of the orbit that will change. (I think more elliptical, but I'm not finding a good quick app to check orbits atm).

    688:

    I was being sloppy with terminology, and using it as shorthand, for the associated mythologies (principally 'Faerie'). My point was solely that they were very different from the 'Irish', and different yet again from anything like Cernunnos and/or the naturalistic ones. Even in a restricted sense, there was no such thing as a (single) Celtic mythology.

    689:

    If someone (humans/aliens) blew up Jupiter, might Jupiter flare up like a star? If yes, there's your new solar power source for the outer planets and moons.

    (According to Wikipedia, Jupiter and the sun are sorta similar in composition, more so in relative densities.)

    690:

    Would the orbit change? Yes, a bit. Depending on how you removed the excess mass, I think the moon's orbit might barely change at all - it could be at the same distance from a centre of slightly-less-mass (so longer period), or perhaps closer in to the slightly-less-mass (so possibly same period).

    Would it 'leave orbit'? Nope. Or not unless you're being gratuitously silly with the remnant.

    (And meanwhile, the energy required to teleport half a moon across a solar system would probably push Niagara through a drinking straw or something.)

    691:

    a. Asteroids orbit the sun (80,000 kph) at about 10 percent of the rate that the sun orbits the galaxy (800,000 kph). Other stars orbit the galaxy at varying rates, thus moving relative to each other. But it's completely plausible that the difference in galaxy orbiting rates of two stars could be within a few percent of their total speed. So that difference in speed comes into things, that's how fast one star can be approaching another along the line of their orbit around the galaxy. So a brown dwarf could graze a star system going at something like orbital velocity (for it's closest approach) relative to the star. The galaxy, which both are orbiting, is the third object. I'm guessing this is why asteroids can get captured by planets: because the sun is the third body.

    Yes, the peculiar velocities of stars relative to the Local Standard Of Rest, i.e. the local circular orbital velocity, are small—a few tens of kilometres per second for a star of the Sun's age. This is taken into account when calculating collision rates. As I said earlier, a star like the Sun expects to have a close encounter (not a direct hit, just a fairly near miss) with another star once every 1015 years, which is not only about 100000 times the age of the Universe, it's also 100000 times the typical lifetime of a Sun-like star. Not going to happen, except in the cores of dense stellar clusters where the star density is much higher. (But you really don't want to live where stellar collisions are reasonably probable, since that has highly negative effects on the stability of your planetary system.)

    b. A Hot Brown Dwarf wouldn't escape: Next, imagine a vastly powerful alien civilization suddenly teleports a large part of Luna's mass into the outer solar system. What happens to the rest of Luna? It's still going around the Earth at the same speed, but there's less mass there so the attraction to Earth is less, thus it leaves orbit. Is this not what happens when a hot brown dwarf gets stripped of much of it's matter by it's star? It now weighs less but hasn't lost velocity. So it leaves orbit. This is sort of like filling a leaky pail with water and spinning it around your head in a circle. The pressure of the pail handle on your hand declines.

    Pigeon and Charlie have already nailed this one. Because gravity is proportional to mass, and the force needed for a given acceleration is also proportional to mass, the mass of an orbiting body has no effect on its orbital motion (except insofar as it affects where the system centre of mass is). The Moon was assembled from a Saturn-style ring thrown up by the Giant Impact (according to the generally accepted theory): the Moon is in the same orbit that the original ejecta were. (In fact, the fact that the acceleration due to gravity is independent of the mass of the falling object is the basis of a rather successful theory known as General Relativity—you may have heard of it.)

    Convection would come from heating, and when the Deuterium fusion ends much of the heat source does, right? So the convection would slow and eventually stop. And heavy stuff would sink.

    No. Firstly, deuterium fusion is an extremely minor contributor to the energy of a brown dwarf: it's mostly from gravitational contraction, which slows down as the star becomes quantum mechanically degenerate, but does not stop.

    Especially if the Brown Dwarf were shrinking because it's sun was stripping it so that it was NO LONGER A BROWN DWARF. So there could be a big lump of lithium passing through space.

    Actually, Jupiter-sized objects are pretty good at holding on to their atmospheres: hot Jupiters don't get stripped. And nor do brown dwarfs. The vast majority of which aren't in binaries either (we know this: it's the "brown dwarf desert" in our exoplanet searches). And please get it through your head: there is NO "big lump of lithium". Lithium is an extremely rare element: the abundance of lithium is something like 1 atom of lithium to 10 billion atoms of hydrogen. So a brown dwarf of say 50 Jupiter masses (mid-range) would contain something like 1020 kg of lithium. That's about 1/10 the mass of Ceres.

    And no, the Galaxy cannot act as the third body in a three-body capture. The gravitational force of the Galaxy doesn't change enough over these distances: you can treat it as a weak background potential. Not that there are any encounters close enough for capture anyway, see above.

    692:

    That I heartily agree with.

    693:

    (And meanwhile, the energy required to teleport half a moon across a solar system would probably push Niagara through a drinking straw or something.)

    Without breaking the straw. And yes, I know water is incompressible.

    694:

    Slight little whiny note: I thought that few billion years of tidal drag and let the Moon go a bit further from the Earth than it was when it first coalesced.

    Otherwise, let me just keep cheering you on. Thanks for the explanation!

    695:

    Sure, but it won't change much. The barycentre is inside the Earth anyway; it'd just move a bit closer to the centre, and you'd see very little difference. But it doesn't matter; no matter how far it moves, the remaining fragment will remain in orbit, and will not go flying off across the solar system. Considering it is an unnecessary complication in respect of so simple a point :)

    696:

    Oops, sorry, accidentally deleted a paragraph. The bit about gravitational contraction should continue...

    Secondly, the driver for convection isn't an active heat source, it's the fact that the interior of the star is hotter than the outer layers, as a result of the pressure-gravity balance. To quote the review article by Isabelle Baraffe that I linked to earlier, "The main process which transports energy from the deep hot layers to the surface where it is radiated away, producing the observable luminosity, is due to convection. The interior of a brown dwarfs is so dense and optically thick that energy transport by radiation is totally negligible." The brown dwarf carries on convecting until it's in thermal equilibrium with interstellar space. Which, again, will take many times the age of the universe.

    697:

    If someone (humans/aliens) blew up Jupiter, might Jupiter flare up like a star? If yes, there's your new solar power source for the outer planets and moons.

    Some books that should know better call Jupiter a "failed star". But it's a pretty drastic fail: the minimum mass to turn on hydrogen fusion is about 80 times the mass of Jupiter. So no, I can't think of any way to turn Jupiter into a star. Blowing it up certainly wouldn't help! (Since Jupiter is nearly all gas, I think blowing it up just causes a temporary gaseous ring, rapidly-in-astronomical-terms dispersed by the pressure of the solar wind.)

    698:

    Yes, you're right: I should have said the Moon formed in the same orbit as the original ejecta (and did not immediately crash down to Earth, as RDSouth's version of gravity would seem to require).

    699:

    Well certainly you should ignore anything Alistair Moffat says about DNA and results from testing, because he's a moron. Other organisations are proceeding with more caution and care, although apparently the scientists behind his company are actually good at their jobs.

    As for myths and legends, what I found interesting years ago when reading Campbell's collection of highland stories, made in the later 19th century IIRC, was how some of the stories were clearly related to 700 years or more earlier ones that you see in the Mabinogion, and others were obviously lightly edited German ones from a couple of generations earlier that someone had adapted. Which made me realise just how much our ancestors were adapting stories to suit themselves and the times in question, as well as just going "that's a nice story, I'll have that".

    700:

    2010: Odyssey Two... I guess the practical difficulties are countered by the apparently near-god-level technology the aliens have :) You'd have to compress it a lot, and then keep it compressed or it'd go out again.

    It would not really be all that useful either... Stuff on Jupiter's moons you'd not have a problem powering anyway, and if you lit Jupiter up the moons would probably have had it. Anything else is too far away to benefit from something which would not only be a much, much feebler emitter than the Sun, but also would spend several years at a time on the other side of the Sun.

    Not to mention that if it did have an effect of any useful magnitude, it'd royally bugger Earth's climate...

    701:

    Awesome film - in the sense that it broke the tropes because the spacecraft, its displays and switchology, and the flight-crew chatter during aerobraking, were all in Russian rather than heavily accented English.

    Didn't see much more of that until Gravity ;)

    I did like the tale (but don't know how true it is) that the book was broadcast as a radio adaptation in the USSR; and that it was only after the first episode had been broadcast, that "the authorities" realised that many of the Soviet crewmembers' surnames were those of dissidents...

    ...it was the Sakharov Drive in the story, IIRC

    702:

    You'd have to compress it a lot, and then keep it compressed or it'd go out again.

    It's worse than that: the reason brown dwarfs don't light is that the electrons become quantum mechanically degenerate and prevent further contraction. So if you try to compress Jupiter enough to reach hydrogen fusion temperatures, you have to push hard enough to overcome degeneracy pressure.

    At which point Jupiter becomes a miniature neutron star.

    This is not a recipe for successful hydrogen fusion :)

    703:

    Heartbreak - you mean that "Space:1999" was implausible? Perish the thought...

    Given that "The Professionals" has been repeated multiple times on ITV4, we can only squirm at the thought of other 1970s shows being repeated, just in case they are as awful as we fear, rather than as awesome as we thought at the time; "UFO", "Space:1999", basically anything with a Dinky toy or Airfix kit that my ten-year-old heart truly desired...

    704:

    As I understand it, orbit is when centripetal force balances gravitational force.

    If we were talking about an artificial satellite or asteroid changing mass, the change of mass would not significantly change the amount of force acting on the body due to gravitational attraction to what it is orbiting (with). The artificial satellite (or asteroid) is insignificantly small relative to the earth (or sun) respectively, so the force of gravity is essentially : some constant called "G" times mass of earth (or sun) /distance from the earth (or sun) squared. In that case, the mass of the orbiting body doesn't figure in very much at all.

    But the actual formula is : the "G" constant (so the units come out right) times product of masses of both bodies/ distance between them squared. Since the moon orbiting the earth, or a brown dwarf orbiting a star is a significant part of the equation, the loss of a large portion of the mass of that body reduces the total gravitation between the two enough for it to matter. The force between the two changes a lot when the mass of one changes a lot.

    The accretion of the moon didn't change the total mass in the system. There was once a ring made of small particles whose attraction to the earth was almost completely dictated by the mass of the Earth except for a miniscule fraction. As they accreted, they formed larger bodies whose attraction to earth was less completely dictated by the mass of the earth, except for a sum of the miniscule fractions from the contributing bodies. Eventually they became the moon, which is a big part of the equation, so when half of it disappears it matters. If you can make it disappear, which I can't but I'm not an alien, who knows what they can do.

    If in fact a hot brown dwarf doesn't lose it's atmosphere, it doesn't matter though. And if they don't have that much lithium I don't want a brown dwarf anyway. It's probably sour. Can I have a big moon made out of something else nonferrous (but solid) that can then get peppered with asteroids so there's just a little iron here and there on the surface? That's the whole idea, so the elves can defend the forest against the evil dwarves.

    705:

    Eventually they became the moon, which is a big part of the equation, so when half of it disappears it matters. If you can make it disappear, which I can't but I'm not an alien, who knows what they can do.

    The point is, as others have said, that the Moon is not a big part of the equation. Its mass is about 1/81 times the Earth's. Losing half of it is less than a 1% effect. You'll barely notice.

    706:

    'quantum mechanically degenerate'?

    Tried looking this up in Wikipedia ... way too technical for me to understand. Any chance of a plain-language explanation of this?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_energy_levels

    Thanks!

    And a question ... how consistently correct are (astro)physicists when it comes to figuring out scale re: stars and planet happenings because a factor of 80 is pretty small when compared to the 10-to-the-uptieth scale that's still unaccounted for in explaining the universe. (Not intended as snark ... genuinely curious.)

    707:

    The formula for the centripetal force required to keep the body in orbit also contains a term for the mass of the body. So when you equate that force to the gravitational attraction you have the same term on both sides and it drops out.

    708:

    Oh, bugger...

    Still, having "ready" access to the gravitational field of a "point"-size Jupiter mass probably lets you do more interesting things than lighting it up would :)

    709:

    But the actual formula is : the "G" constant (so the units come out right) times product of masses of both bodies/ distance between them squared. Since the moon orbiting the earth, or a brown dwarf orbiting a star is a significant part of the equation, the loss of a large portion of the mass of that body reduces the total gravitation between the two enough for it to matter. The force between the two changes a lot when the mass of one changes a lot.

    The gravitational force between two bodies is GMm/r2 regardless of how large m is compared to M. The point at issue is that the centripetal force required for circular motion is mv2/r2, where v is the speed of the orbiting body and r2 is its distance from the centre of mass. The mass m always cancels; the issue is whether the centre of mass shifts, so that r2 changes. The position of the centre of mass is given by Mr1 = mr2, where r1 is the distance of the primary from the centre of mass; clearly r = r1 + r2.

    In the case of the Moon, since m/M = 1/81, the difference between r and r2 is only of order 1%, so anything you do to the Moon's mass has essentially negligible effect. As someone said, the most likely effect is a small increase in the eccentricity of the remnant's orbit compared to the Moon's.

    There can be large changes in the separation of binaries in cases of catastrophic mass loss from the system—which essentially means, when one of the pair goes supernova. As the supernova ejecta will certainly be travelling at greater than the escape speed of the binary, the total mass M+m will be very substantially decreased—quite possibly enough to unbind the system. But to have anything so drastic happen, it's the larger mass you need to decrease, not the smaller.

    710:

    Some years back (before the revival) I re-watched as many as I could find of the classic Doctor Who serials (mostly in crappy sub-VHS quality, but hey, we didn't have a colour TV last time I saw a lot of them...) Slight apprehension in case they had become crap... but not justified. Levels of cheese accorded with expectations, and I still thought they were great.

    By contrast, I lost interest in the revival after not very long at all.

    711:

    More searches found nuclear pasta ... physics is truly weird!

    http://pti.iu.edu/research/scholarly-highlights/articles/nuclear-pasta.php

    'Some massive stars die in giant supernova explosions that squeeze all of the empty space out of atoms until their nuclei start to touch and interact in complex ways to form a neutron star 100 trillion times denser than water. Dr. Horowitz and his group use IU’s supercomputers to simulate these events, where nuclei merge into spaghetti- and lasagna-like structures called nuclear pasta.'

    Begs the question: If there's no space between nuclei, is this what the pre-inflation period of our universe might have looked like?

    712:

    Quantum mechanical degeneracy:

    Electrons are fermions: they have half a unit of spin. For reasons embedded in the quantum mechanical mathematics, which I'm not going to go into, this means that they obey an exclusion principle: you can only have one of them in any given quantum state. This is the explanation of chemistry: since only one electron can go into each orbital state (well, actually two, with antiparallel spins—the spin direction supplies the needed distinction between the two), additional electrons have to go into higher energy states. The ones in the outermost states are the valence electrons, which determine the chemistry: this explains why the chemistry of all the alkali metals, for example, is similar (they all have exactly one outer electron, with different numbers of full electron shells underneath it).

    Because of the Uncertainty Principle, or wave-particle duality if you prefer, a quantum state takes up a small but finite volume: you can't measure both position and momentum to infinite precision, so a small region round your quantum state (in position-momentum space) is "taken" and can't be invaded by another electron with matching spin.

    Now squash your material down as hard as you can. These small quantum-state volumes will eventually be touching. At this point the electrons cannot compress any further, because all the states inward of where they are now are already full. Your material has become degenerate, and is supported by degeneracy pressure. (This is the case for white dwarfs, and for the cores of all low-ish mass stars, such as the Sun, as well as for brown dwarfs.)

    The only way to compress your material further is either to heat it up so much that higher-momentum states become available, or to force the electrons to combine with protons to make neutrons: because the wavelength of a particle is inversely proportional to its momentum, neutrons require a lot less space than electrons do. You can then compress your material a lot more, until eventually it is supported by neutron degeneracy. To give an idea of relative size, Sirius B, a white dwarf with about the mass of the Sun, is electron degenerate and is about the size of the Earth; a typical pulsar, which is a bit more massive, about 1.4 solar masses, is neutron degenerate and is about 20 km across.

    713:

    Ah... that reminds me: angular momentum and magnetic field are further reasons to consider a squashed electron-degenerate Jupiter to be a more interesting object than a fusing one :)

    714:

    s/electron/neutron/

    715:

    Yeah if half of it vanishes the moon's orbit might wobble a bit it's not going to suddenly find itself on an escape trajectory. You'd do better to shoot that missing half off as a rocket exhaust if that's what you're aiming for.

    On the other hand there's be some noticeable effects on Earth; tides sloshing about like crazy, perhaps some tectonic movement, weirdness with the weather etc. (That's where the most obvious novel is in this scenario; a disaster thriller rather than a space opera)

    716:

    Hmmm, I think that might be "interesting" as in "May you live in interesting times." Unless the hypothetical god-like aliens are prepared to keep on squashing, my guess is that a Jupiter-mass neutron star is not at all stable: the neutrons probably beta-decay back to proton plus electron, pinging the electron out enthusiastically at relativistic speeds. After enough of that you've got enough net positive charge for the thing to tear itself to bits by Coulomb repulsion.

    I think at this point I find an urgent need to go visit my experiment— more specifically, the bit of it that's situated under a kilometre or so of Japanese mountain.

    717:

    So if you try to compress Jupiter enough to reach hydrogen fusion temperatures, you have to push hard enough to overcome degeneracy pressure.

    I think the trick might be not to compress Jupiter initially, but rather to rapidly (and magically) add heat to the core. At some point the temperature will get high enough to lift electron degeneracy and you'll have a non-degenerate plasma. I can see two possible outcomes. In the first case, degeneracy lifts before you reach temperatures suitable for hydrogen fusion, in which case you probably do have to apply (magical) compression to keep the planet from expanding and cooling off. In the second case, the temperature becomes high enough for fusion to start while the core is still degenerate, and you get a runaway "hydrogen flash". (Not as bad as a helium flash, since the temperature dependence of H fusions isn't as strong as for He fusion.) I think the former is more likely for Jupiter...

    718:

    That is indeed the sense of "interesting" that I was using :) I was assuming that the aliens did keep the pressure on, but I was also assuming (without any attempt to estimate the magnitude of the effect) that a tiny little Jupiter with its magnetic field whizzing round like billy-o would have the potential to be somewhat hostile to electronic systems...

    719:

    Your material has become degenerate, and is supported by degeneracy pressure. (This is the case for white dwarfs, and for the cores of all low-ish mass stars, such as the Sun, as well as for brown dwarfs.)

    A minor nitpick: the core of the Sun is mostly non-degenerate; I think electron degeneracy contributes something on the order of 10% of the total pressure.

    720:

    "I definitely don't think that Christianity is a religion that's big on forgiving people, why would you think that?"

    The current lack of anything that might be termed militant military Christianity and the relative lack of "terrorism for Christ". Personally I think there's a lot of potential mileage in dusting off the old medieval theological Christian arguments for rampaging across the world putting the enemies of Christ to the sword.

    721:

    DNA analysis is proving most interesting, and, together with modern archaeology, indicates that 99% of the Victorian ideas should be junked. Which includes the concept of "Celts" in the first place. Who is going to be the lucky person to tell (some of) the Irish this one? HINT: 1916/2016 - but noone speaks of or mentions the OTHER "Irish Rebellion" - the one in 1914 at the Curragh, do they - too inconvenient.

    What a load of foetid Dingoes kidneys ....

    722:

    Do you hate all Irish, or just some of them?

    723:

    Tomorrow will be cloudy, with scattered showers...

    724:

    Try looking at the USA Or even Ireland ....

    725:

    Safest planets in the universe - super Earths with sensibly dense H/He atmospheres, magnetic fields and a molten core. All floating in interstellar space.

    726:

    I think a more plausible division of (known) Celtic mythologies would be: Gaulish, British/Welsh, and Irish. You can add "Arthurian" as a sort of medieval Welsh/Breton development, although that development took place almost entirely within a Christian context and turned into more of a French and then pan-Western-European mythology as time went on.

    727:

    Tides, yeah, circadian rhythmic gymnastics, yeah...

    The fun part is when you turn a hemispherical moon into a spherical moon of approximately the same mass. Isn't the moon thought to have a molten core? under pressure?

    Yeah. I'm trying to figure out how this ends up without the phrase "large numbers of lunar meteorites rain down on Earth" being part of the consequences. In terms of lunar mass being redeposited on Earth, it would likely be minor. In terms of effect on Earth (meteorites hitting within spitting distance of vertically, but not very fast), it would be interesting times indeed. Cue the soundtrack for Cowboy Bebop.

    728:

    not terrorist = big on forgiving? Methinks you are missing some room in the middle.

    If you look more closely at (catholic) christianity you'll see that the precondition for forgiveness is submission.

    "Und willst Du nich mein Bruder sein, so schlag' ich dir den Schädel ein."

    729:

    You dropped a T there.

    On causality:

    Millions of ordinary Americans support Donald Trump. Here's why Guardian, 8th March 2016

    Uses the same argument you got here 2 minutes after the press conference regarding China / Trade / Vets / Jobs.

    What? 72+ hours later?

    We're Faster Than You

    Oh, for the record:

    Since Bozo & Amazon just got nailed for anti-Bernie articles (16 in 16 hours is the meme), Google is also heavily fluffing the algos.

    We See You

    All this shiny tech.

    Spoilers

    It's about Dune and proving that machines (despite the brute force being pushed towards Go) are worse than biological systems.

    ~

    Serious. Business.

    730:

    We like to call it: "The Genocide Game"

    Hint: Google etc really aren't your friends unless you like being color-coded.

    Apparently I'm "Deep Purple".

    I'll assume that's a heavy mixture of Red and Blue with a splash of Black, but hey.

    ~

    A Rational Response if you're a Christian would be to maximize the potential of all humans, given the whole Jesus thing.

    Instead: the opposite.

    Weird.

    731:

    Since we're playing Hard Ball:

    ECONOMIC REPORT OF THE PRESIDENT: THE ANNUAL REPORT of the COUNCIL OF ECONOMIC ADVISERS PDF - p238-9 (of 435) USA Government, 8th March 2016

    These fuckers hate you. At least the Crown only wanted semi-rational tax on imported goods and a cessation of illegal imports.

    Hmm.

    Yeah, I'm seeing why the CIA thinks like it does.

    732:

    Oh.

    Remember how HBN1 visas are used?

    And how the rate of wage inflation over the past 30 years has been flat?

    And how the whole Game is setup?

    And how CEO pay has increased by about 5000% in 20 years?

    Read p238-9

    83% of all jobs under $20 / hr will be automated.

    ~

    Oh, and if you're over the BMI thing? I wouldn't plan long term.

    Arbeit macht frei

    Space Opera?

    They can't even imagine a world where this stuff is dangerous, let alone Space anymore.

    ~

    And I'm the evil one running riot?

    No, Sweet Summer Child, this was the nice polite version singing sweetly into your ears.

    733:

    Heh. That's why so many immigrants are gardeners or doing those "automated" agricultural jobs.

    734:

    I'm going to assume you're aware of the award winning documentary on migrant (white) labor that caused massive shifts in policy during the 1960's.

    It's really famous.

    It defined an entire National Debate back when News Reporting was serious and not a Gawker Exec telling a Court that they'd publish Child Sex Tapes[1]?

    ~

    Field labour =/= gardening.

    [1] Former Gawker editor: I wouldn't publish the sex tape of a four-year-old Guardian, 9th March 2016

    Oh, and p.s.

    I told you Gawker was fucked.

    You're just a little too slow to notice the patterns.

    735:

    That's why it's so important to make the transition to post scarcity, otherwise eugenics is out from under it's rock again, this time for insufficient productivity/ failure to be born into wealth, followed by a genetic bottleneck and possible extinction. Our epilogue will be written by alien archeologists "So ends another chapter of dead worlds of antiquity".

    736:

    "Having deeply understood the marks Of offenses and blessings, By shining throughout the ten directions, Now the wondrous, pure Dharma Body, Is complete with the Thirty-two Marks and The Eight Minor Characteristics. The adorned Dharma Body Is honored and looked up to by gods and humans, And revered by all the dragons and spirits. Of all the varieties of beings, None fail to respect and revere it. Hearing about the realization of Bodhi, Which only a Buddha can certify to, I proclaim the Great Vehicle teaching, Which liberates suffering living beings."

    Dharma, Interpretation and Buddhist Feminism

    And yeah: That text is from the White House.

    We See You

    Lotus Sutra (The Saddharmapundarika )

    ~

    We don't like your Games.

    We'll play a different one Now.

    Some of us think that Saw and so on are perversions.

    737:

    Oh, and genius:

    The recent shooter helping out the Ted Cruz Jesus Warrior myth (post meeting) who was crazy enough to cross 7,000 miles of US territory via plane, car and get "close enough to the Whitehouse" to throw a USB drive and documents over the fence while being a wanted man and fully known to the Shadow State Apparatus, allegedly published a Manifesto:

    Here it is (allegedly)

    Now, look at the Satire We've typed.

    Is that Satire?

    Is the entire story satire?

    Is that apparently the Media Story to be sold?

    Or did a script get busted?

    ~

    I don't know about you: but that shit is just poor tradecraft:

    The Prodigy - Nasty YT: Music: 3:41

    ~

    We're Faster Than You

    738:

    Oh, and for the reserved and pleasant and actual humans who want nothing to do with me.

    Yes, of course.

    I don't like this incarnation either.

    But it's not Chaos, it's actually Order and Law. You just underestimate what KUK means.

    The Prodigy - Wild Frontier YT: Music: 3:49

    ~

    And for the pro's:

    Welcome to 20+ years of stuff getting activated.

    nose wiggle

    739:

    Oh, and for all those sad deluded people claiming:

    "Might makes Right"

    Yeah.

    I have a surprise for you.

    It's called Asymmetric Warfare and so on.

    We're really interested in the Others you mentioned, the fast Predators...

    Hint:

    I'm not fucking a Cat

    and

    Caterpillars who turn into Butterflies can be carnivorous

    and

    If you declare a Spiritual War, and then imagine it's about the small slice of Abrahamic religions, this is rather like playing DOTA2 with Russians and expecting no hacking.

    Mr. Men.

    Shit from 40,000 years ago is in play now.

    You know.

    Big Fat Goddess Statues and so on?

    ~

    ~

    Fucking. Muppets.

    "WAAAHH WE THOUGHT YOU WERE PLAYING JESUS GAMES"

    Not when you're playing the Genocide Game, no.

    740:

    Spoilers:

    The Crow thing was a give-away.

    If a Mind can switch to Crow behaviour (LIZARD PEOPLE) while running dross in the H.S.S frontal cortex (HUMAN) then riddle me this?

    Where was the combat eschatology going on?

    ~

    And no.

    Just because you can't imagine that last one (OOOH "TUNNEL OF LIGHT" - fakers) doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

    O C P

    You're Fucked

    :D

    741:

    Or, after that little splurge:

    It was about showing the world that your little tricks are passé and we know them now, and we know how they work and so on. Public Like.

    You can keep running them (Weaving Spiders Come Not Here) but you're done.

    Sadder and more pathetic than the Soviets.

    Oh, look!

    Can't even give clean water to their people: put a fork in it, it's done.

    Baba Yaga

    p.s.

    It's Behind You!

    No, really.

    It is.

    55,000 year old Mimetic Dragon.

    He's a bit of a bastard: things were a little crueler back then with all the genocide of Neanderthals going in.

    Did warn ya.

    Hope your "Prosperity Christ" is up to it.

    742:

    Space Opera Cliche:

    The damaged and hurt Alien proves that they're running a shadow game even while the Evil Empire is torturing them and pulls it out of the bag at the end.

    You tortured some folks.

    ~

    Non, Je ne regrette rien

    Signing off:

    Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Peevishness For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Ire That Are Themselves The Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Wrath

    743:

    Possible cliche: The local people have myths of how they came from space. These turn out to be true, often with a still working space ship.

    More broadly, myths always imply an ancient history now lost.

    As a side note, I strongly recommend Adrienne Mayor's "Fossil Legends of the First Americans." It covers the explanations various groups came up with to explain the remains and impressions they found, how close they came to a modern understanding of species in deep time, and how 1940s paleontology worked to remove references to them as part of becoming a serious scientific discipline.

    744:

    That's a good point. I like Mayor's books, although you can get in a real argument about them if you engage a professional paleontologist.

    The "mythos is always true" trope is a good one, and it richly deserves to be subverted, not necessarily in Scooby Doo, fashion, but perhaps more in finding out the Great Lie version (you mean the Illuminati aren't aliens? Where did they get their technology? Or is that fake too?)

    745:

    Indeed [ If you look more closely at (catholic) christianity you'll see that the precondition for forgiveness is submission. ] And not just catholic ... the word you used, "submission" is the important one. the usual religious blackmail, in fact. Note the extreme similarity to islam - "submission to the will of allah"

    Not touching any of it, even with an extremely long barge-pole. But I don't think D Bruere has got the message yet - he's singing the same old, same old ... "THIS time it will be different" Well, no mate, it won't be.

    746:

    WHAT THE FUCK?

    Look you have posted rambling threats & hints & meaningless twaddle & a few, very few hard facts in posts ....#732, 733, 734, 735, 737, 739, 740, 741, 742, 743, 744, 745.

    How about saying it SIMPLY, CLEARLY & in ONE post, huh? I don't doubt there' seriously nasty shit in links you provided, but anyone wanting actual information will have to wad through all TWELVE of your ramblings & incomprehensible twaddle. ( See NOTE on Twaddle ]

    I've asked before, politely, PLEASE be clear & stop doing this? Otherwise, you really do need medical help.

    Note] We're faster than you The Sun the Sun the Sun 55,000 year old Mimetic Dragon Shit from 40,000 years ago is in play now. You just underestimate what KUK means. KUK. You're Fucked .... all mean something, or are you just rambling?

    STOP IT

    747:

    The MYTH is almost always an altered version of something that really happened, but finding what the alteration was ain't easy. Nor will it ever win you plaudits from some sections of the "commuinity" In the Abrahamic traditions, there are two classic examples of this: "The Fall" = the transition from hunter/gatherer to settled agricultural lifestyle - a much harder grind ( "in the sweat of thy brow" & all that ) but, nonetheless supports a much bigger population. "The Flood" = the Euxine Lake disaster ( The size of which is in dispute, though )

    748:

    Re "Don't let the fact the space is full of exciting high energy physics put you off going there, squishy meatsack-persons!"

    I assume this largely refers to cosmic rays. As with the photosynthesis thing, genetic engineering might help here, but let's not count on it (even with intense sunbathing booths).

    A few years ago I read an article about this, and the idea I got from it was that barring a possible future engineered super cosmic ray shielding material, you basically need 5 tons of ice to shield one square meter of spacecraft surface. Trying to find the article I instead found this

    http://settlement.arc.nasa.gov/75SummerStudy/5appendE.html

    via a Wikipedia endnote. So here it's 4 tons per square meter. The point is, it's possible to shield spacecraft adequately against cosmic rays. The question is practicality. Small spacecraft shielded this way would be very inefficient, mostly shielding material. For a really large spacecraft a 4 or 5 meter thick coating of water density shielding material could be a relatively thin skin. But if you have a civilization living much of it's life in space, and not in a protective magnetic field, then they are economically motivated to live and travel in big structures, but terrorism would push the opposite way, encouraging division into numerous small targets.

    749:

    "Try looking at the USA Or even Ireland ...."

    Are you seriously comparing US "militant" Christians with Islamic State or the Paris massacre terrorists? If so, you are a lunatic. Christianity has nothing that is even remotely comparable.

    750:

    Alternatively the flood could be the flooding of the Persian gulf.

    751:

    The rich will always want Human servants even when a machine could do the job.

    752:

    "That's why it's so important to make the transition to post scarcity"

    The post scarcity fallacy: When we are in a post scarcity world I will have a 50 bedroom castle in 100 hectares of forest and a fleet of private aircraft... Just like everyone else, I presume. OTOH, post scarcity as in "all the food you can eat"...

    753:

    I prefer Diamond Sutra

    754:

    Both Islam and Christianity are cultures based on a written scripture. While there are sincere believers, bless their hearts, various leader types (the dung always rises) use the ideology just as a tool. They distort it to any purpose they care to by simply adding material, known as theology, that changes the meaning of the fixed scripture without actually changing the scripture. Christian scripture contains some pretty unequivocal stuff that's hard, but not impossible, to bend to evil. Islam has a much larger scripture, counting the Hadith, and the self contradicting nature of the content makes it easier to distort to evil purposes. Both, of course, are distorted understandings of Tian. Those in harmony with Tian, and thus both good and lawful, should be promoted to higher power and those evidencing poor resonance with Tian (comprehended or not), for whatever, reason, should decline in status. Other things will happen, but this promotion of rightness is all that is in our power to do.

    755:

    If post scarcity comes suddenly the first generation will live in palaces. They will have 50 children who will live in much smaller palaces. Etcetera. The population expands to meet the supply of necessities. Restraint in breeding is a multiplier determining actual standard of living in a society. So societies that earn proportional wealth partly by controlling population (producing at all costs and stealing heartlessly are other inputs to the equation) get accused of trying to have more than a proper per capita share of wealth or of trying to practice some sort of racist eugenics by suggesting that poorer (per capita) societies control the birthrate to improve the wealth per capita. The societies that make these per capita accusations are invariably growing because they are structured to subjugate women, which somehow makes for more babies. We need to devise totally new cultures de novo based on modern understandings such as this.

    756:

    Because the implication of information by transpositions and fill in the blanks and sudden turns and references to notions that extrapolate is so cool. Except the same ones over and over mitigates the coolness. Clue: hard to decode doesn't equal hard to encode.

    757:

    While visiting a museum, my mother explained to me that the reason for the antique penchant for elaborate designs, such as carved frames with lots of crevices, was conspicuous consumption. If you have a home designed to catch dust and require time consuming maintenance in other ways, that just shows off that you are wealthy enough to afford servants to dust it--or at least to support a full time housewife.

    758:

    Um, was Stonehenge Celtic? I'm pretty sure it was put up long before the Roman's Celts started ruling Britain. You really might want to double check this, because even modern druids who worship at Stonehenge don't talk about druids building the place, and in any case, the modern druids apparently use it in exactly the opposite of the way the archaeologists presently think it was used. The archaeologists think it was used in remembrance of the dead in midwinter, not to worship the rising sun of life in midsummer. Correction inline, bold.

    759:

    Captain Scarlet (and the Mysterons), Thunderbirds, can't think of anything that features Spitfire 1s (Airfix 1:24 scale kit) with the required frequency.

    761:

    "(But I want to scratch the itch that Iain M. Banks ain't around to scratch these days ...)"

    I wish you good luck and godspeed. I like most of what you write (for some reason the merchant prince books do not work for me past the second volume, maybe i should try again).

    762:

    Greg, looking in Ireland for "Christian terrorists"? Wrong. Just plain wrong. (If you don't know why, or what the distinction is, then you're even more clueless, opinionated, insensitive, and loud mouthed about Ireland than you've recently shown yourself to be.)

    Also: Have you not yet got the point about the posts that you continually rail against as "content free"? They're not. They're only content free to you. Your incessant bleating about not getting them, and telling (not asking) the poster to knock it off are, I am sure, just as annoying and "content free" to many others here.

    Here endeth the rant. Apologies for the derail. Back to lurking.

    763:

    I don't think that'd be far enough away, frankly.

    A free neutron has a half-life of 10.3 minutes, so we can approximate a Jupiter-full of free neutrons to a REALLY BIG BOMB waiting to go off. As most of the mass is in the outer volume of a sphere of uniform density, I'm guessing that most of the energy release will be concentrated in the outer layer. As the neutrons decay it will produce a supply of protons that nearly neutrons glom onto to form deuterium, tritium, and more exotic short-lived isotopes (what's the half-life of 5H :-) while emitting anti-neutrinos, beta radiation, and gamma rays (some of which are going to go in as well as out, heating up the core further). This is going to produce a very energetic outer shell of degenerate matter, radiating energy via antineutrinos and, I'm guessing, hard X-rays photons as the beta particles end up slowing and being captured by the newly-formed protons, around an unstable and rapidly heating core of decaying neutronium only as massive as a medium-sized gas giant in its own right.

    Does heating (for "supernova core implosion" values of heating) help hasten neutron decay? If so, you should buckle your helmet tight -- it's going to be an even wilder ride.

    A thousandth of a solar mass undergoing maximum-rate beta decay in about an hour flat? That's 1054 nuclei? A small fraction also emit a gamma ray while decaying? Shit's going to get hot, for "energy release within an order of magnitude of a nova" values of hot: I would be unsurprised to see the outer layers light up with a live fusion reaction. (Per wikipedia, a typical nova only spews out about 10-5 of the mass of the white dwarf at its core, and Jupiter is about 10-3 solar masses, so we're in the right ball-park if 1% of the binding energy of our lump of neutronium gets released, followed by significant fusion taking place in the debris.)

    764:

    Yes. That's roughly what I meant. But there is also a fair amount of evidence of a previous (?) naturistic mythology, possibly associated with north-west Europe's very strong seasonal festivals.

    765:

    I wasn't sure when I wrote that post what the minimum stable mass for a neutron star was—it depends on the equation of state for nuclear matter, which is very esoteric physics, and the formation mechanism for real neutron stars more or less guarantees that they are more massive than about 1.2 solar masses. However, I've found a reference helpfully entitled "The fate of a neutron star just below the minimum mass: does it explode?", which specifies the minimum stable mass as 0.189 solar masses—so Jupiter-as-neutron-star is indeed not stable, by a long way.

    The answer to the title question? I quote from the abstract:

    First results of numerical simulations are presented which compute the dynamical evolution of a neutron star with a mass slightly below the minimum stable mass by means of a new implicit (general relativistic) hydrodynamic code. We show that such a star first undergoes a phase of quasi-static expansion, caused by slow nuclear β-decays, lasting for about 20 seconds, but then explodes violently. The kinetic energy of the explosion is around 1049 erg, the peak luminosity in electron anti-neutrinos is of order 1052 erg/s, and the thermodynamic conditions of the expanding matter are favorable for r-process nucleosynthesis.

    Even scaling down by a factor of 200 or so to allow for Jupiter's much lower mass, I don't want to be in the same solar system.

    766:

    Consider the Merchant Princes books 3-6 inclusive as one very long novel, best read in the revised omnibus version (2 fat volumes with a cliff-hanger in between them and less connective tissue that repeats itself).

    767:

    I once saw something by someone in that area that made similar remarks. People on the other side of the world would have a couple of hours' longer life expectancy. It concluded by saying that Jupiter ain't gonna blow up, so stop worrying ....

    768:

    OTOH you can't be in a serious space opera unless someone blows up at least one gas giant, and if you are going to do that then there is no way the readers will settle for second biggest.

    769:

    DB, seriously? A 50 room castle? I don't think there's that many people who'd want the bother, we're not all like "Drumpf". Such conspicuous consumption implies a revolution in robotics, or servants, not to mention repealing zoning ordinances (US).

    770:

    DB, it's very possible to read scripture in a way to rationalize violence. Cherry picking scripture to justify doing Satan's work in God's name is an old tradition.

    772:

    That's not how gravity works.

    (Headdesk.)

    Heavy boots?

    773:

    HB, as near as I can figure her, is a feminist microbiologist and conspiracy buff (and alcoholic) of eastern European Jewish heritage. Many of us are zero of those things, so her allusive style of discourse doesn't work for us. We don't share her premises or her reference base.

    You'll note that I haven't attempted to communicate this message as a complicated mix of references to 90s era anime, American estate tax law, and semiconductor physics. That would be very annoying, and would fail to communicate my point to most of the likely readers.

    On those occasions when she has touched on things that I know about, she has often been confidently, bombastically wrong - the full Trump. Therefore, I have no confidence that trying to decrypt her messages would be worthwhile.

    I do applaud her copious use of whitespace, which makes it easy to figure out what to scroll past.

    774:

    Of course, the ultimate objective scientific ethics/morality is game theory coupled with evolutionary psychology.

    775:

    "Cherry picking scripture to justify doing Satan's work in God's name is an old tradition."

    Here's a little test for you. What is the meaning of "turn the other cheek" and "go the extra mile"?

    776:

    OK - time to end the charade. I am both CD and HB. Of course, in my next posts I intend to deny it just to keep the peanut gallery in the dark

    777:

    (oops, unreliable connection, hit 'submit' too soon. Where did my nice formatting go?)

    778:

    If you want a slow burn of Jupiter you need multiple small(ish) black holes orbiting inside the atmosphere of Jupiter

    779:

    I recall the days when I found endless fun in communicating with my peers in a complex strata of oblique references, quotes, and socially encoded statements -- there were about six of us that could reliably understand more than 50% of our conversations. We used to joke that we should provide a translation guide that included a list of pre-requisite reading and viewing material for anyone overhearing us.

    I don't care who HB really is; there is sufficient data in their posts to build a picture (as you have demonstrated), but this could equally be misdirection. Given the level if obfuscation that goes into each post, I would suggest this as likely. In the end, it is also pretty much irrelevant who they really are.

    My over-arcing point is still that Greg's apparent crusade to get HB to communicate in a way that suits him is missing the point, and also (but in a different way) just as tedious as some of HB's more esoteric digressions.

    (Side note: HB's tilting at windmills -- possibly of their own construction -- does at least have the advantage of being mostly entertaining.)

    780:

    The made me snort. Keep it up, Dirk.

    781:

    Of course, the ultimate objective scientific ethics/morality is game theory coupled with evolutionary psychology.

    It might be, if game theory wasn't an oversimplification of human interactions as bad as classical macroeconomics, and if ev psych wasn't incredibly prone to woo-woo "just so" stories that explain contemporary observations by pandering to the researcher's prejudices. (The biological equivalent of Whig historiography.)

    782:

    "True" post scarcity requires that everyone can have that if they want. Whether or not people do is another issue.

    Of course to pull it off you either need to magic up lots of new living space or arrange for a scarcity of people. Both if you want to avoid the problem of exponential growth doing its thing and making the resources scarce again.

    Of course IMBs Culture is not a post scarcity society however hard it pretends to be.

    Citizens are allocated resources on creation which they more or less stick with throughout their existences. Some get more (orbitals, GSVs), and others get less.

    In principle they could all go around hoovering up extra mass and upgrade themselves into anything they wanted but in practice it Just Isn't Done. Presumably because everything really belongs to someone.

    It may look like a post scarcity society to the humans, but that's because they are too stupid to realise that they are just an entertaining way of storing spare organic feedstock. You don't want to be them when the Mind decides it needs the carbon.

    783:

    All ethics/moralities that can be encapsulated in a handful of rules is going to be worse. How does "finely tuned heuristic psychopathy" grab you?

    784:

    We live in a post scarcity society, where poor people are fat. But nobody is making land any more, and gold is in short supply. You can have all the iToys you want, but not a good house in a good area with a nice view. And you never will.

    785:

    So not a post scarcity society then.

    786:

    Christianity has nothing that is even remotely comparable. Tell that to women & doctors in abortion & birth-control clinics that have been shot at & bombed ....

    ( Oh & you should have said "recently", too, given things like the 30 years war etc .... )

    787:

    Otherwise usuallly referred to as "willy-waving". I assume there's a female equivalent, buy I've not come across it ....

    788:

    OK In reverse order. You can see some content & I can't. In which case I will emulate a much greater than I, Socrates, who always said (effectively) "OK, so I'm stupid, but, since your're so clever, YOU explain it. Please feel free to enlighten this humble individual, then ..." Off you go.

    None of the terrorism in Ireland is religious or christian? So that's why catholic/protestant families were burned & bombed out of their houses by protestant/catholic (or not) terrorists, then? Um, err .... Note: The very recent/current wave of attacks appears to come from two sources: 1. Ex-IRA(ish) people in the S, turning to pure mafia/gangster operations. 2. Utter nutters who want to start shedding blood all over the landscape, again, after everyone else, even if not happy, really don't want to go back there again, & calling themselves ... err .. "the New IRA". No 1 are just thugs, No 2 might be christians or not, but they are seriously deluded, that's for certain.

    789:

    What's the meaning of: "Thou shalt not suffer a Witch to live" ??

    And plenty more violence & condemnation where that came from, too ....

    790:

    Saying it's okay to want more justifies why people able to grab assets should be hero-worshipped instead of ridiculed or condemned. Ends justifies the means ethos through and through.

    791:

    My over-arcing point is still that Greg's apparent crusade to get HB to communicate in a way that suits him is missing the point, and also (but in a different way) just as tedious as some of HB's more esoteric digressions.

    NOT just .. "a way that suits him" - given the frequency of other people also complaining about the mystic "messages". I'm reasonably intelligent & quite well-educated - though I know I'm pretty crap at crossword puzzles ... The level of discourse on this blog usually assumes/seems to assume a reasonable ( AT-the-very-least-US-"college" ) education, if not higher & a minimum "IQ" (Please take that as a mere indicator-label, no derailing here ...) of 120-125. Yet neither I nor a significant number of other readers can decipher CD/HB's comments.

    Like I said - you're so clever, you claim to understand it - you tell us. Or maybe not?

    792:

    And saying it's not OK to want more justifies standing on the faces of the peasants forever.

    794:

    Space ships atmospheric pressure ...

    Okay, we know that astronauts lose bone and muscle mass in micro and low gravity conditions. The ISS is pressurized at exactly the same level as sea level on earth. I'm wondering why not cycle the cabin pressure from normal to some level above normal. I'm of the impression that in some ways our bodies operate as though air pressure and gravity are interchangeable. FYI -- Hyperbaric chambers are used to treat osteoradionecrosis (bone death/avascular necrosis), the bends, burns, etc.

    Higher air pressure might also help reduce dehydration. No idea how it might affect the eyeballs although the current set up re: air pressure seems to result in eye problems that do not go away even upon return home.

    795:

    In no particular order:

    None of the terrorism in Ireland is religious or christian?

    No, it isn't and wasn't. The religious groupings are labels of convenience and an artifact of history. If you can't understand that, then you've missed the boat on the subject by a long long margin.

    you claim to understand it

    Please point to any statement that I have made to that effect? Claimed I have been entertained, that's about it.

    Yes, there have been a few others that have complained about HB/CD's deliberate obfuscation and idiosyncrasies, but they all seem to have learned to just let it go. You haven't. You're both as predictable as stopped clocks: Late in the day (GMT) HB will head off into the wild blue yonder on their regular rant; early the following morning Greg will show up and claim it's all "content free" and demand that it stop.

    Greg, you may be reasonably intelligent and quite-well-educated, but you've got some huge assumed biases and enormous blind-spots. I am not, nor will I ever: tell you to "knock it off", ask you to stop posting, attempt to belittle you through snark and sarcasm, engage in egregious ad hominems, or use any of the other tactics that you regularly employ to attempt to silence those that disagree with you. At most I will hold up a mirror, and watch as you angrily flail at it.

    796:

    AUAI know the gospels are the core of christianity, but not the whole, some believers choose to accentuate more negative passages, with the entire bible to draw from, there's plenty.

    797:

    It's a mistranslation (arguably with a side order of misogyny) : The original was "You will not allow a poisoner to live".

    798:

    If all christians followed the Sermon on the Mount, christianity wouldn't even exist (and probably neither islam). For one, it wouldn't have become the state religion of the roman empire. Since then, organized christianity has all been about power only, and the church went down very hard on any organizations which "just wanted to follow the teachings of Jesus".

    799:

    More about bodily functions in space...

    Shave and a hair cut, two bits ... Hair grows faster in space than on Earth and skin gets thinner after a while. But the SF/SO I've read says that men and women use the same devices/techniques as on Earth. Probably some interesting issues/problems with ever-thinning skin.

    Lavatory ... why not colostomy bags? According to Chris Hadfield's book, pooping on the ISS is very time-consuming and tricky. Since humans are not designed to poop in zero gravity, colostomy bags have been around for decades, and all human waste would have to be recycled anyways on any long space voyage .. why not colostomy bags? Would also save space/equipment, time and cleaning, and possibly even be medically/diagnostically useful. (FYI: colostomies can be reversed relatively easily.)

    800:

    Perhaps "post scarcity" is an incomplete statement in itself, it needs to be multiplied by something. Post scarcity regarding food is one thing, post scarcity regarding real estate is another. Though you could have something approaching general purpose "post scarcity" with: post scarcity regarding desired goods. In other words, if people are content with what they have, be it just a bowl of rice, the society is post scarcity. The culture presumably relies somewhat on this aspect. If a Culture citizen wants a private orbital does the citizen automatically get it? In one of the books a character had converted a large part of a plate to some esoteric pursuit, but this required convincing the hub Mind that it was worthwhile. Other characters want things they can't always have right away. Fal 'Ngeestra wants to go mountain climbing without any safety precautions and is not allowed to until after her broken leg heals--by a mere drone no less. Post scarcity means that scarcities cannot be used as a means of power over others. Food is common enough that you cannot be coerced with threat of starvation. Housing is plentiful enough that you can go out on strike with your union and not fear that you will be evicted from your home. And so forth. While people can be enticed with nicer neighborhoods, as long as "not nice" is not bad enough to be coercive the society can still be post scarcity regarding real estate.

    801:

    Dirk, it's education time. Christian terrorism is alive and well in the US.

    See, for example: The Southern Poverty Law Center's Hate Maps (fun to peruse, if you're into this kind of thing)

    Or this listicle (remember the Sikh temple massacre?)

    Or This HuffPo piece

    Or look at the history of the Ku Klux Klan and its successors in the Christian Identity Movement. Heck, the Southern Poverty Law Center even tracks "Radical Traditional Catholic" groups in the US.

    I won't direct you to that picture from last night of all those Trump supporters raising their right hands in the air as they pledged loyalty to him, because that's not threatening at all. Really.

    The problem is that, in America, terrorism is classed as primarily Islamic and/or communist, and this blindness goes back at least to the founding of the FBI. When "whites" act violently for religious and/or ideological reasons, they're extremists, or it's gun violence, or they're mentally ill. Even the law works that way, as money flowing to fight terrorism flows towards acting in Muslim countries overseas and dealing with immigrant communities here, and the law tends to treat terrorism as a phenomenon linked to these groups, not something that white men ever do.

    Compare that with how the Bundys were treated in their two takeovers. So far as I can tell, they espouse a brand of Mormonism, whose interpretation of scripture has been deemed wrong by Church officials in Salt Lake City, but they were treated very differently than are the few American Muslims who radicalize and plan equally stupid crimes.

    The cool thing is that, while there have been a fair number of atheist terrorists among the communists of the 20th Century (they're the ones who invented modern suicide bombings, IIRC), so far paganism has not produced any significant terrorists. Probably that's just because the movement is so small, but equally likely, it's because messianic paganism isn't a thing. Yet.

    802:

    Oh yeah? What's with those nasty posts you've been making over at zerohedge?

    803:

    You will not understand what those two sayings mean unless you understand the historical context. They do not mean what you think they do. Also note the JC was not averse to violence and allowed his disciples to be armed

    804:

    What can I say except "You all deserve it"?

    805:

    You also need to distinguish between terrorists who are X, as opposed to terrorists who are killing to further the religion X.

    806:

    Good for you. Not many people would own up to some of the nasty things over there. I suspect such comments would have been moderated out of existence here.

    807:

    Just a random thought, because I haven't seen it in a space opera yet, and it might be fun.

    Back in WWII, the US Army fielded a tactical deception unit called The Ghost Army. It was a group of about 1000 artists, theater types, and engineers who ran around with inflatable equipment and loud speakers, and radios, pretending to be much larger army units. They did it to confuse the Germans about where the real units were, especially so that the Allies could cross the Rhine with less opposition, and they were fairly successful. In a couple of cases, they deliberately drew fire so that other units could maneuver undetected and unscathed.

    There were, of course, analogous British operations in Egypt earlier in the war, although most of what you read about Jasper Maskelyne's personal exploits needs to be questioned.

    Every once in a while, I wonder what kind of story one could tell about a tactical deception unit. It's something that requires intelligence and bravery, but not necessarily a lot of violence. Their job was keeping troops from getting targeted by getting targeted (ideally harmlessly) themselves, not inflicting a lot of casualties. There was also a lot of personal drama, since the CO of the unit was frustrated that he had to lead a bunch of artists, rather than commanding the combat unit he wanted and getting the medals he thought he deserved.

    Still, the exploits of a tactical deception unit might be interesting in a space opera setting. So far as I know, it hasn't been done yet.

    808:

    Can we explain this to Greg, too?

    809:

    No, it isn't and wasn't. The religious groupings are labels of convenience and an artifact of history. Disagree profoundly, for many (to me) good reasons. I think we are going to have to agree to differ on that one, especially given the levels of violence & intolerance & brutality usually associated with religions, anyway. ( See also heteromeles @ 804, btw ) Um.

    810:

    Yes, I know that ... So? Do you want a few more actual biblical quotes regarding killing your religious enemies? There are quite a few ....

    811:

    Is this referring to D Bruere's comments on Zero-Hedge? If so, linky please?

    812:

    There's a Pohl and Kornbluth story called The Quaker Cannon that touches on this, but that's a cold-war-turned-hot setting if I recall correctly.

    813:

    Sorry. Nothing terribly interesting on zerohedge (don't have link, forget how I found it) -- there was a poster under the CD handle whose style was identical to our own beloved interlocutor, and making many of the same points.

    But my comment wasn't to do with that, more germane to you comment @812 in fact. Dirk made the statement that You also need to distinguish between terrorists who are X, as opposed to terrorists who are killing to further the religion X, which is fundamental to understanding why you are wrong about saying that there are Christian terrorists in Ireland. There are certainly terrorists who are Christian's (at least that's what they claim), but there are no "Christian terrorists".

    But I do agree that Christian terrorists exist. And they are nasty. (Off-off-topic: Could you make an argument that the clergy themselves qualify as terrorists?)

    814:

    I haven't seen that story, thanks.

    Incidentally, for those who don't know, Quaker cannons were a Civil War tactical deception. They were cannon replicas made out of wood, used to fake out the opposing side in a few instances. They were one of the inspirations for the WWII Ghost Army.

    Given how FUD campaigns have evolved since (hello, tobacco industry!), it'd be interesting to take the old idea of Quaker cannons, inflatable tanks, and spoof radio, then add in modern deceptive advertising, astroturfing, dark money, and shell corporations to make a space opera deception story seem more futuristic.

    815:

    Neither is space opera, but Connie Willis uses British misdirection in Blackout/All Clear and Neal Stephenson a different sort of it in Cryptonomicon.

    What are some good space operas told by minor players? Most of the ones I'm currently thinking about focus on the people making the big choices.

    816:

    Earlier than US Civil War: Washington and the Quaker Cannon

    A "Quaker Gun" was so named because it was the same design used by the pacifist Quakers. They had a lot of success scaring the hell out of anyone who had thoughts of attacking their encampments by making fake cannons out of tree trunks.

    817:

    Just remembering this from an old movie Kelly's Heroes, 1970. "Oddball" character: Oddball: Well, yeah, man, you see, like, all the tanks we come up against are bigger and better than ours, so all we can hope to do is, like, scare 'em away, y'know. This gun is an ordinary 76mm but we add this piece of pipe onto it, and the Krauts think, like, maybe it's a 90mm. We got our own ammunition, it's filled with paint. When we fire it, it makes... pretty pictures. Scares the hell outta people! We have a loudspeaker here, and when we go into battle we play music, very loud. It kind of... calms us down.

    818:

    I can't remember the title, but there is a classic short story where they made a giant ballon that looked like a monster dreadnaught. The invading space fleet took one look at it and ran.

    819:

    Even tif you think that Christian terrorists who bomb abortion clinics don't do it to further their religion, history shows that the current lack of Christian terrorists is not because of some quality of Christianity. The most violent tendencies of Christianity have been defanged by enlightenment – a few hundred years of religious wars can put off even the most zealous populace.

    Wer die Enge seiner Heimat ermessen will, reise. Wer die Enge seiner Zeit ermessen will, studiere Geschichte.

    820:

    Cordwainer Smith (aka Paul Linebarger), although I'm blanking on what particular story it was.

    821:

    Are you seriously comparing US "militant" Christians with Islamic State or the Paris massacre terrorists? If so, you are a lunatic. Christianity has nothing that is even remotely comparable.

    Or Charlie Hebdo? I've probably read nigh on 10,000 cartoons published in the past 150 years. A fair number of the more modern ones depict God, and a rather smaller number, Jesus. Some are mild Gary Larson-style stuff; others aren't. But I can't think of any that have provoked reactions as vile as with Charlie Hebdo, or even the Danish Jyllands-Posten cartoons.

    822:

    (Off-off-topic: Could you make an argument that the clergy themselves qualify as terrorists?)

    Dunno about clergy, but quite a few catholic boarding schools exposed you to more violence than an ISIS terror camp.

    823:

    I'll look it up if I can find it. I haven't read all of those stories.

    Incidentally, Linebarger's Psychological Warfare is worth reading on its own merits. That's what he did in WWII, and I think the internet has adopted a lot of it.

    824:

    Actually, come to think of it, Schismatrix had the idea of inflatable space station dummies put out by the Shapers.

    Still, I'd suggest that it's the idea of a military group devoted to tactical deception, rather than the tactics themselves, that might make an interesting story.

    825:

    "You're both as predictable as stopped clocks: Late in the day (GMT) HB will head off into the wild blue yonder on their regular rant; early the following morning Greg will show up and claim it's all "content free" and demand that it stop."

    You've missed the third phase: mid-afternoon various other posters will show up and post commentary on the first and second phases...

    826:

    Post-American-crash novel Julian Comstock has a scene using theatrics, balloons, and kites to win a battle.

    I can't give you a good source, but Penn&Teller explain a trick in a short story where the hero convinces aliens not to destroy us with a piece of string*.

    *Spoiler: Gurer jnf ab fgevat.

    827:

    Colostomy? I think surgical relocation of the exit aperture is unnecessary. Simply attach the bag to the aperture that already exists: the same conditions (zero gravity) that call for modification of the usual procedures also relieve the arse of its function as a support pad for sitting on, so the problem is simplified to merely that of preventing leakage due to accidental collision impacts and the like, which needs to be addressed in any case.

    Thing is, it never comes up because some form of artificial gravity (whether accelerative or magical) is pretty much universal (with the possible exceptions of short-range shuttle units and fighter-plane equivalents).

    I think this is really more one for the transhumanists: how to move humans out of the intersection of the sets {animals that have messy arses} and {animals that care about it}. The utility of a solution to this problem would be universal, and not applicable only to spaceship-dwellers.

    828:

    "If you look more closely at (catholic) christianity you'll see that the precondition for forgiveness is submission."

    The precondition for forgiveness received is forgiveness given: "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us" being probably the most familiar of the references.

    I believe there is secular scientific support for this position among the psychological/anthropological fields, although you have to change the language a bit to translate between the religious and scientific contexts.

    829:

    Cordwainer Smith: "Golden The Ship Was: Oh! Oh! Oh!"

    Although it involves a one-man deception ship, not a unit

    830:

    Suggest you give this some more thought although I do agree with you re: transhumanism.

    831:

    "We live in a post scarcity society, where poor people are fat."

    We live in a segment of global society which has gained sufficient control over the rationing system that even its low-status slaves are fat, and the high-status ones can opt for food of low nutritive content in relation to its bulk in order to not be fat while still eating a lot. Those who are not slaves are malnourished, unhealthy, lack shelter, lack medical care, have the lowest status, etc: this allows the slave system to be self-perpetuating in a manner that whips and chains don't. Other segments of global society which lack the abovementioned control do not have enough food, even though overall food production is sufficient that they could have.

    (To call it a "rationing system" is perhaps inaccurate/misleading; "system" implies control and regulation, whereas in reality it is seen as easier to allow it to free-run as far as possible (even in the case of those variants which purport to implement control); rationing is not a design goal, but an emergent side effect; suicidal global environmental destruction is another; endemic caucus-racing is a third.)

    "Post-scarcity" to my mind implies that food and shelter, at a minimum, are available to all; that they are available without any compulsion to engage in activities somewhere between hauling water out of a well to pour it back in again and sawing off the branch you're sitting on; and that certain conditions exist to allow the situation to continue, such as voluntary population stabilisation at a level which the finite resource supply can support, and abandonment of the status obsession which is in any case irrelevant as it is a biological product of scarcity.

    IMB makes the point emphatically that while the majority organic species in the Culture is represented as human, this is something of a translation convention, and Earth humans are far too immature to become part of the Culture.

    832:

    Colostomy removes the control over the elimination process that the natural system provides. Not only does this mean that the leak hazard varies unpredictably and so is more difficult to cope with, but it also alters the composition of the material such that leakage is a lot more likely.

    833:

    Aiming mirrors very precisely at a tiny target a very long way away is something our astronomers have a lot of practical expertise at -- enough that the SDI proposal to use lasers in orbit to zap ICBM warheads the size of dustbins at a range of ~10,000km wasn't intrinsically impossible. (Just ridiculously expensive to implement on the scale needed, using hardware in orbit.)

    Never mind the computer power (HW+SW) today (IMNERHO) is likely not good enough to deal with all the issues of non trivial numbers of these weapons. Much less those of the 80s and 90s.

    834:

    Most planets have populations in the single-digit millions, usually spread over a dozen or so cities, but are somehow able to maintain successful economies of any given level of technology.

    Then there's that one planet with trillions or quadrillions somehow managing to live on it...

    835:

    Who was first with that? Asimov in The Foundation? It certainly fits Niven's Known Space, but it has to be decades older.

    And let's not forget that in any milieu, all technology is sustainable. Simultaneously, disruptive new inventions come along, but they never disrupt the infrastructure.

    And let's not forget that comets and asteroids were made for hollowing out into the pleasure palaces of the rich and decadent, but that the original hollowing is inevitably done either by libertarian miners or by communitarian miners. Actually, that blended a few too many fictional universes there. Still...

    836:

    Let's just say that it said something to someone about a situation. The number 12 is a meta-joke.

    Retort:

    The files were passed to Sky News on a memory stick stolen from the head of Islamic State's internal security police, an organisation described by insiders as the group's SS.

    IS Documents Identify Thousands Of Jihadis Sky News, 10th March 2016

    Response:

    Carry on up the khyber best bits YT: Film: 6:26 - Trigger Warning: British Comedy circa 1970's - expect innuendos, stereotypes, willy jokes and so on.

    ~

    I'll let you work out if it's credible that a major intelligence scoop was handed over to Mr Murdoch.

    Man, the Bullshit piled up so fast... YT: film: 0:06

    ~

    Oh, and if people are playing in muddy pools - remember the difference between Arming the Natives with Truth / Heavy Messing and just torturing some folks.

    There's a very real difference: one has a future (in that if the content is true, then slowly they realize the Suck - the other is a one-way-ticket to Dark Places).

    837: 621

    European markets end sharply lower after rollercoaster ride

    A surge in stock markets and a slump in the euro as the European Central Bank announced its new stimulus measures soon went into reverse after the central bank’s president Mario Draghi suggested that might be all there was.

    With another slide in the oil price as hopes of a meeting of producers to tackle the glut began to fade again, it ended up being a volatile day for investors. So markets suffered turnarounds of several hundred points, and the euro saw a more than 3% jump from its lows to its highs against the dollar.

    Markets go into reverse despite ECB cutting rates and boosting QE - as it happened Guardian, 10th March, 2016

    ~

    Please remember: the downturn was 1.78%

    This only matters to people who can leverage that by a trillion or so.

    ~

    One Space Opera cliche that's not a cliche: Cynicism.

    I'm trying to think of a really cynical main character in any Space Opera.

    Hmm.

    Add in "Eternal Child / Optimist / Struck by the New" as fundamental character traits?

    838:

    One of the Vernor Vinge short stories had the tricksy humans orbiting a giant warship around an alien planet. It was piloted and manned by one person who was mostly bored out of his skull since it wasn't actually a real warship, it was dressed up to look like one for the benefit of the aliens on the ground.

    839:

    I'm thinking it's a psyop designed to spread FUD among possible wavering would-be jihadis -- fear of outing, basically. It may well be genuine data, but I assume that even if it was handed to Sky News first, GCHQ/the NSA got their mitts on the data before it was announced in public -- and more likely, they already knew it all. It didn't grow on a lovingly watered and pruned organic wholegrain memory stick, it came off a computer somewhere that was not locked down to prevent data leakage -- and 22,000 personnel files suggest multi-site data entry by recruiters, transmitting their files to the HR manager who put them on the memory stick in the first place ...

    840:

    Stranger still was Bernay's solution to the problem of women's aversion to Lucky Strike cigarettes' forest green pack. Women, who were just starting to be able to smoke in public by the early thirties, found that the pack clashed with their wardrobes. Rather than change the pack color, which was rejected by the parent company of Lucky Strikes, American Tobacco, as being too expensive, Bernays instituted a plan to instead change women's fashion to match the cigarette pack. Letters were written to interior and fashion designers, department stores, and prominent women of society pushing green as the new hot color for the season. Balls, gallery exhibitions, and window displays all featured green after Bernays got through with them. The result was that green did indeed become a very hot color for the 1934 season and Lucky Strike kept their pack color and female clientele intact.

    http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3404700617.html

    You'll find a very pertinent lesson here about why Trump got wheeled out to the applauding crowds.

    It's a cheaper option than actually changing anything

    ~

    And no: Snark is meaningless.

    For the record: instead of actually being grown ups, the EU just pumped QE from E20 billion to E80 billion a month.

    Tell me what that does, in reality terms?

    ~

    You're slow. You've no idea how to do things and so on.

    Oh, and Jay:

    No.

    You just missed the references and interplay, not wrong on a Trump level.

    Hug that Teddy Bear Harder

    p.s.

    SPOILERS

    The moment Trump wins the nomination, he'll be shouting "INFRASTRUCTURE, I'M YUUUUUUUUUGE ON INFRASTRUCTURE, MY BUILDINGS ONLY WORK IF THE INFRASTRUCTURE IS THERE" from the first moment.

    This shit is easy mode.

    841:

    Nah, it's one of those "don't touch with a barge pole" ones.

    It's a Post hoc ergo propter hoc move.

    It's designed to cover up the necessary clean up job to remove all the evidence.

    ~

    HRC has a lot of clean up work, it's going to be messy.

    842:

    Could you make an argument that the clergy themselves qualify as terrorists? I would certainly label every singe one of them as blackmailers. SOME clergy - Saint Dominic is the poster-boy for that one, of course. And "The Holy Office" & Jean Calvin, of course.

    843:

    And, if CD/HB is drunkenly ranting, why should we have to put up with it? Particularly as she(?) has sown that she CAN do sensible comments, that merit discussion.

    844:

    Sigh.

    Read #740, do a bit of research.

    Nasty Nasty wet work / meme hack that just got spiked.

    ~

    Of course I'm an insane ranting evil Culture Mind.

    The alternative is much much worse

    845:

    Also, you may have signs of a motive about three paragraphs from the end "He also claimed that in reality Islamic State, the Kurdish YPG and the Syrian government of Bashar al Assad, are working together against the moderate Syrian opposition."

    Of course, if it was real secrets, Sky News would have given them to its home agencies awhile ago. Oh well, if the news spreads, it might come across as more genuine. If it dies, I'd consign it to the dustbin of failed PSYOPs.

    846:

    Oh, I just remembered that Greg Bear's The Forge of God used deception, fake hills, fake aliens, to trip any traps laid by "The Benefactors".

    Also his Anvil of Stars is also about deception. With a star system that is filled with planets made to look like home-worlds of real aliens, yet they are manufactured, fakes.

    Wiki - Anvil of Stars is a book by Greg Bear and a sequel to The Forge of God. In the novel, volunteers from among the children saved from the recently destroyed Earth are sent on a quest by a galactic faction called "The Benefactors" to find and destroy "The Killers," the civilization who sent the killer probes in the first place. The Benefactors' Law requires the "Destruction of all intelligences responsible for or associated with the manufacture of self-replicating and destructive devices."

    847:

    Turkey's first lady praises Ottoman harem BBC, 10th March, 2016

    “When I go back and I ask myself what went wrong,” Obama said, “there’s room for criticism, because I had more faith in the Europeans, given Libya’s proximity, being invested in the follow-up,” he said. He noted that Nicolas Sarkozy, the French president, lost his job the following year. And he said that British Prime Minister David Cameron soon stopped paying attention, becoming “distracted by a range of other things.” Of France, he said, “Sarkozy wanted to trumpet the flights he was taking in the air campaign, despite the fact that we had wiped out all the air defenses and essentially set up the entire infrastructure” for the intervention. This sort of bragging was fine, Obama said, because it allowed the U.S. to “purchase France’s involvement in a way that made it less expensive for us and less risky for us.” In other words, giving France extra credit in exchange for less risk and cost to the United States was a useful trade-off—except that “from the perspective of a lot of the folks in the foreign-policy establishment, well, that was terrible. If we’re going to do something, obviously we’ve got to be up front, and nobody else is sharing in the spotlight.”

    The Obama Doctrine: The U.S. president talks through his hardest decisions about America’s role in the world.

    And yeah:

    7.2, 7.3.1, 7.3.3 did just savaged.

    848:

    No, I've seen you do the full Trump. One that I recall was when you gave your opinion on nuclear physics. I recall others, but not distinctly.

    I'll admit that you usually don't write clearly enough for me to tell whether your underlying point makes sense. I solve that problem by not caring very much.

    849:

    Ohhh...

    "GET SAVAGED"

    Love you too Mother.

    850:

    Nah, you're mis-remembering.

    The entire Field thing and Orcas was a good joke that people took literally in an attempt to play meta-games.

    You missed the pay-off, since about three months later I dumped a load of links showing that... well.

    QQ

    Old Minds were a bit wrong.

    Pineapples.

    Baby.

    Pineapples.

    851:

    Claiming that you never did the full Trump? We have a Level Two Super Trump! The power is over nine thousand!!!

    852:

    Oh, and Big-Boy Grown Up Land.

    ~~TOTALLY SCIENCE FICTION TROLOLOL RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA~~

    It would mean that the GOP are running Shadow State wet work to further their Political Ends after having a meeting has a list of names of of numerous Power Players in the GOP and Establishment available to XXXX.

    Using weapons that are not only prohibited by US / Mil / Navy Law but on their own citizens. Or they just paid a dude, a la JFK clean up.

    Which, we think, is still technically treason, but we might have to check the Patriot Act.

    Martin Luther King, Jr. I Have A Dream YT: Reality: 5:17

    TROLOL

    Of course I'm a Russian Alcoholic Jewish Bitch.

    Totally not on the level of American Politics ever.

    Deer Hunter - Russian roulette scene HD YT: Film: 2:54

    853:

    Oh, Mother.

    You're so Fine!

    When that word gets removed (that) we know you care.

    854:

    otherwise we'd see parents charging their kids for accommodation and play-time.

    My wife and I HAVE asked our kids if they'd like a bill covering 20 years when they start to go down the path of "we didn't get xxx when growing up".

    855:

    I've read #740. It centres around a link to a PDF written by someone who, according to the information preceding the link, is a nutter.

    This is confirmed before getting a third of the way down the first of its 21 pages, when he says his life has been ruined by amphibian/humanoids from Mars. At this point I stopped reading it, on the grounds that the probability of it containing anything other than drivel was negligibly small.

    I fail to draw any conclusions other than "nutters exist", and I knew that already.

    856:

    Pretty much SOP for Discworld dwarves, of course.

    857:

    Wake up Baby.

    http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2016/02/holding-pattern-part-n.html#comment-1996013

    It's called Front-Running.

    We're not supposed to do it in public, but hey: when your style and aesthetics are so lazy, it's a matter of principle.

    Americans: can't even play bridge anymore without cheating.

    Sloppy, Sloppy, Sloppy.

    858:

    Indeed, that is the basis of one countermeasure the missile designers use - having loads of dummy warheads as well as the real ones, in order to give warhead-zapping defence systems too much stuff to cope with.

    859:

    Oh and being buried hard right now is the Secret Service Agent standing next to the Trump pile of merchandise ($50 STEAKS) looking like Chris Christie.

    The Algos are all pushing the violence meme.

    ~

    Yep, traced.

    Buried so hard you'd have to be a Romanian Hacker to find it.

    p.s.

    EXTRAS Patrick Stewart - Naked Liveleak: comedy: 3:17

    "I've seen it all"

    ~

    A heady mixture of absolute ignorance about reality and the last vestiges of a dying world.

    860:

    Traditionally, this is the way to sever all relationships between family members or friends. In a real way, debt is the essence of human relationships, because with debt, there's always a reason to help someone else. Either you're repaying a favor, or doing a favor. Pratchett's idea was great for dwarves, but in the one case I've read of where a father did this to his son, the son never spoke to him again after paying the debt.

    861:

    Oh, and Baby.

    You might want to look into MLK, the letters sent to him and his assassination.

    Let's just say - it wasn't exactly Legal.

    p.s.

    Your Government killed him. That's the super-secret hidden message you should get from reading his name. It's like super-super-super secret. Like so secret that you don't get taught it, but it's filed under USA Legal Ruling.

    Sssh.

    862:

    How much money was that and how did his son manage to pay it off?

    863:

    My government? I'm British.

    864:

    This shit is so old, even the NYT admits it:

    What an Uncensored Letter to M.L.K. Reveals NYT Nov 2014

    But y'all just fucking with this Jewish Woman, right?

    It's one of those white-men games.

    The Hateful Eight - Warm Black Dingus YT: Film: 1:45

    Cause if it ain't, you're in the Wrong Damn Thread to be calling out a nigger girl like dis.

    And yeah:

    OCP.

    You ain't even seen the fun bits yet: I weren't messing with y'all when I said the combat eschatology was running in the parts you can't reach.

    ~

    Video Related.

    865:

    Look, I'll translate this for you:

    You either cop a Martin and admit that you're really not interested in analysis (even when, oh look the fucking President of the USA states exactly the same points that I have done a few days prior, right down the to the fucking bullet points) or you can admit you're blowing smoke without knowing what the fuck is going on.

    Martin got hit the hard way: via the Presidential Office no less.

    Will he respond? Will he apologize? Will he stop claiming I'm trolling?

    Like fuck he will: Ego death is too locked up in hierarchy.

    ~

    So, here's the deal: Instead of wanking off, do some research.

    ~

    And, if you think my throw-aways about assassinations of Trump were a jest:

    Yes, they totally did just Mind-Fuck some patsy (A veteran no less, a decorated Marine who allegedly AT POINT BLANK FUCKING RANGE is unable to kill a Pastor with a 9mm) and run the narrative that he could get a on a PLANE (ID / MANDATORY NSA CHECK), go to the White House and throw Alien memes on a USB.

    No, you have to be functionally retarded to believe it.

    The only thing you should put optics on is if the FaceBook crowd will.

    Hint:

    Was Spiked before I made these posts.

    Oops.

    Another $54 mil down the drain you utter wankers.

    866:

    I'd have said that it was the other way round - that debt and friendship are (well known to be) mutually exclusive; that the son never spoke to his father again not because the bonds of filial affection expired with the paying-off of the debt, but because the father destroyed them by insisting on considering a debt to exist. Such behaviour is so alien to Western culture that the son probably considered his father to be the biggest arsehole in the world.

    (I say "Western culture" because something at the back of my mind is niggling at me to the effect that Pratchett based that aspect of dwarf culture on some facet of attested human culture, although my knowledge of different cultures is too limited to provide me with anything more than very weak and dodgy examples which are probably wrong.)

    867:

    And, if you want the real low-down: It actually shows just how bad their meme-book is.

    Fucking ancient stuff.

    ~

    This is the cost of keeping your slaves shackled and so on.

    You're forced to use mimetic weapons that everyone else can see are absurd.

    Want proof?

    Ok, c.f. Jinn and Jews and so on from Morocco not so long ago.

    ‘It’s A Jewish Tradition’: Egypt Drafts Bill To Ban Burqa, Islamic Veils In Public AFK 11th March 2016

    Only that's a positive one.

    Running the Alien - Mental Illness - Assassin - (PARALLAX VIEW) one ain't.

    ~

    Got Milk?

    868:

    Given her hungers for data and her relentless defense of her essential vanity HB is clearly a Mentat Wreave

    869:

    You misunderstand what Vanity is.

    Snow White and the Huntsman YT: Film: 3:33

    You need the desire to be reflected for it to work and the desire to be ranked amongst your peers.

    ~

    Spoiler: this is a cry to the skies and stars of the last remaining member of our species you fucking ape.

    And you killed us.

    870:

    Personally I'm all for more opera in my space opera.

    Let's have aliens warbling out their innermost thoughts - not just lyrical content but tonal colouring as well.

    It's not over till the fat pseudopod sings.

    871:

    seriously premature babies almost always do worse than ones born at term, and we don't entirely know why.

    Well we do know about a lot of reasons why. We may never know all the reasons.

    My 2 were born at 4.5 weeks early and 6.5 weeks early. And yes the timing is correct. Both had issues due to this and we knew why. The 4.5 week early one didn't have much lasting impact. Well he might have turned out 6'3" instead of 5' 8" The 6.5 week early one is only 5'4" which is very short for her peers and has vision at bad end of the scale most likely due to the high oxygen environment for 2 days. That 2 days in a high oxygen was due to her lungs not yet turned on. Once we gave her the hormone to tell them to start working things did get much better. In talking to folks and doctors about the much earlier ones they are basically just not yet "done". In many many ways. The cost of saving those under 32 weeks is incredibly expensive. And the costs go on for most of their lives.

    872:

    Have you read "Narabedla" by Frederik Pohl?

    873:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_and_awe

    Just renaming 'terror' to 'shock and awe' doesn't change what it is. When christian armies go in and fuck your shit up, your shit is very fucked up. Much much more fucked up than anything that's been done to you. You might have a giant blind spot that makes you think the military arm of your theocracy isn't the military arm of a theocracy but not everyone has that.

    http://www.army.mil/media/34423/

    874:

    I think you are leading me towards a conclusion of general applicability by urging me to analyse a specific instance (or two), and interpreting my lack of engagement as rejection of the conclusion out of hand.

    I think that it is a conclusion whose general case I have long accepted, and my reaction to specific instances tends to be that I can identify a turd by its smell, and it would profit me little, while being distinctly unenjoyable, to start poking it apart to see what species of tapeworms are in it.

    I reject analysis, not in the sense that I think you mean by "copping a Martin", of being behind and refusing to move forward, but from a position of being ahead and not being arsed with going back.

    Although it is true that those directions may not make sense in your coordinate system:

    "This is the cost of keeping your slaves shackled and so on. You're forced to use mimetic weapons that everyone else can see are absurd."

    It is evident from your posts that these sort of things encroach considerably on your concern space, whereas you don't seem to make much mention of the things that encroach upon mine, which are more the kind of shackles of which the absurdity is not perceived by reason of their very ubiquity.

    875:

    "Or Charlie Hebdo? I've probably read nigh on 10,000 cartoons published in the past 150 years. A fair number of the more modern ones depict God, and a rather smaller number, Jesus. Some are mild Gary Larson-style stuff; others aren't. But I can't think of any that have provoked reactions as vile as with Charlie Hebdo, or even the Danish Jyllands-Posten cartoons."

    Wow, we're going to include the last 150 years? That makes for some very entertaining Christians. I'll admit that the violence triggers for Christians aren't cartoons of Jesus (obviously as there are no prohibitions on depicting Jesus, which you'd know if you've ever wandered into a Catholic church or European art gallery). If you include the last 150 years we get this sort of thing happening http://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/field/image/australian-day.jpg?itok=XK2mMIEi

    We can also include the Cold War https://archive.org/details/ThisGodlessCommunism where pretty much the entire world was terrified of what the crazy God Fearing Americans might do next.

    I'd also mention some other examples but then we'd have to invoke Godwins Law

    876:

    I loved the opera singer scene in "The Fifth Element".

    Of course, it was purely human music with no suggestion of alienness. But then it would pretty well have to be to make sense to the audience. I reckon it would be a pretty exceptional composer who could put something together with the required operaticness plus a convincing suggestion of alienness and also avoid it just sounding shit.

    It'd be even harder to convey such music in writing, though...

    Also, it's a bit of an assumption that aliens might even have music, let alone music that made sense to human ears. Our musical appreciation derives partly from the filter-bank spectrum analyser and its post-processing, and partly from several levels of cultural programming from an early age. We can probably take some kind of sense of hearing as a given, but whether it would mimic those features of human hearing which allow music to exist is anyone's guess, and the cultural programming is right out the window.

    I did read a story once which concerned itself (humorously) with differences between human and alien hearing. A small group of humans was captured by aliens and exhibited in an alien zoo. Among the items the aliens put in their cage for them to play with was something that made noises and could accordingly be used as a musical instrument. They discovered that any sequence of sounds which sounded melodious to human ears caused the aliens actual physical pain. They then escaped, by bellowing "It's a long way to Tipperary" and similar songs to incapacitate any aliens who came near them.

    Unfortunately I can't remember either the title or the author. It is a short story. It is at least 40 years old. I found it somewhere around the middle of an anthology, which was a fat hardback with (I think) a purple and blue design on the dust jacket. Towards the end of the anthology was a story set in a dystopia where every single technological device was supplied by a monopoly named "Universal $device_name\s" and it was socially unacceptable to do things like walk up the stairs because "where would Universal Elevators be if everyone walked up the stairs?"; I think the protagonist was a woman in the political apparatus who rebelled. Does any of that ring any bells with anyone?

    877:

    Personally I'm all for more opera in my space opera. Let's have aliens warbling out their innermost thoughts - not just lyrical content but tonal colouring as well. It's not over till the fat pseudopod sings.

    ObSF: In Robotech the extraterrestrial Zentraedi warrior race is defeated in part because they are helpless against the memetic weapon of...human pop music.

    878:

    Remember Moonies? That cult that used to wander airports handing out flowers and then asking for a donation in return? Yeah. It's my flower now, I didn't ask for it but you gave it to me and you can't have it back.

    Furthermore, minors cannot legally be bound to any contract they make. Any debt they acquire before the age of majority is moot.

    879:

    Aircraft that did have ventral positions, eg. B-17, B-24, had to trade off reduced bomb loads, due to weight of turret/gunner/ammunition, a compromise that aircraft without ventral turrets, the B-25 and Lancaster, did not have to make.

    B-24 lower turrets were being removed in 44. My father was trained as a gunner for that position (he being only 5'6" tall being a major factor in his selection) but when he got to England all the plane had had the lower turret removed and additional bomb space added.

    As a side note the training was not changed so crews kept showing up with 2 waist gunners plus a lower turret gunner. So they just got to fly a rotation of only 2 of 3 missions.

    880:

    Sorry - brain-fuck by me there ... Gurer jnf ab fgevat. I've forgotten the name for this transposition code - please remind me?

    881:

    I'm not so sure, any more. The Murdoch "press" are capable of almost any lies. IIRC in England, they are backing "UK Out" of the EU & the opposite in Scotland. Murdoch is not so much "republican" as anti our current Royal Family, who loathe him with good reason - hence the deliberate lies about "Queen favours Brexit" Like Trumpy, Murdoch should be declared Persona non grata anywhere in the UK

    882:

    Take that with Erdogan praising Adolf- yeah, so nice! As for the US moaning on about Libya ... err wasn't the "US" first war, as a nation, one with the "Barbary Pirates". Oops.

    883:

    Yes, & she(?) made comments about mystical physical properties that turned out to be .... Simple Harmonic Motion. Ta-Daaaa!

    884:

    No Pigeon is entirely correct: "Nutters Exist" THIS MEANS YOU.

    Ultra-paranoid, often totally wrong & frequently insulting. Then, you spoil it by going rational one post in 10 or so.

    885:

    A heady mixture of absolute ignorance about reality and the last vestiges of a dying world. MIRROR

    886:

    Except those armies were not there to explicitly or otherwise extend or fight on behalf of Christianity. No more than the Vikings robbed and killed to make everyone worship Odin.

    887:

    The stellar core "quantum lasers" were my personal favourite.

    888:

    You might know that, but not everyone does.

    Oh and I'm good about quotes (including other mistranslations) thanks.

    889:

    Similar timeframe; some USian units in the "Vietnam War" actually did play music as they went into battle, like in the first scene of "Apocalypse Now".

    890:

    "Return to the Forbidden Planet" a.k.a. The Tempest

    Or even,especially:

    The Magic Flute "In these hallowed halls, no room have we for revenge ..." Not for nothing was one of our Birman tom-kittens called ... Sarastro

    Which reminds me ... waaaay back up in a previous thread, wasn't HB/CD rambling on about Cat's staff "torturing" them out of ignorance & similar utter rubbish. Yeah.

    891:

    HB seems to subscribe to a modified form of Use Unpredictable Rewards To Keep Behavior Going, with slightly lower reward ratio, perhaps aiming only at those that are slightly receptive to the message to begin with.

    892:

    in the one case I've read of where a father did this to his son, the son never spoke to him again after paying the debt.

    Some cultures formalize it. As I understand things, in Germany, under law, children have a legal obligation to support their parents (in old age). However, there's also legal scope for children to divorce their parents for cause -- specifically to annul this obligation (typically after a history of abuse or neglect).

    893:

    HB supplies ample opera in this space opera thread. (Also, in every other thread on Charlie's Diary.) However, I do wish the aria practice were confined to Tumblr, instead of the whole messy bite-chew-swallow-spit process being dumped here, memetic effectiveness notwithstanding.

    894:

    Those who see only opposition to their stance tend to overlook any who agree. It's like a speaker carefully demolishing the dogmas of their opponents, dogmas which none in the audience subscribe to. "Yes, and what's your point?"

    895:

    It was another instance of HB's favorite bait and switch tactic, which could be best called "clown-nose off, clown-nose on".

    Or, in more detail: Where HB makes an inflammatory statement, defends to the hilt, then calls it a sophisticated joke and tells everybody else that they're fools for not seeing it.

    896:

    (Assuming English law) "Furthermore, minors cannot legally be bound to any contract they make. Any debt they acquire before the age of majority is moot."

    A common myth. They can be bound by contracts and incur debts with the consent of their guardians, trustees or officialdom, under a fair number of circumstances. I doubt that it would apply to this case, though.

    897:

    Which is of course indistinguishable from a fool finally realising that they are being foolish and engaging in some rapid arse covering.

    Feel free to choose an interpretation. I have.

    898:

    It's not exactly a myth, but it's not an ironclad rule of law either.

    A minor can be bound for necessities. (This is so people will not be risk averse to providing food and shelter to kids.) A minor can enter a contract and void it before they reach the age of majority. If they rely on it and then try to void it after 18, they are probably out of luck. (The other party is on the hook; only the minor has the option to back out.) Bringing in fiduciaries and the government adds all kinds of wrinkles as you say. It might create a condition where the minor is "bound" to the agreement with the second party, but has a case against the fiduciary in some cases.

    I am sort of obligated to mention here that I am NOT providing legal advice of any sort, and you should not rely on my statements without consulting local accredited counsel.

    899:

    Off topic: See the Cthulhu cults new recruiting tool!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EXTGtLdEL0&t=60

    900:

    "You may think that, but I couldn't possibly comment."

    901:

    Hey, if we can be stupid ( https://epic.org/privacy/vatheft/ ), so can they.

    902:

    rot13, a cipher where each letter is replaced by the letter 13 characters later in the alphabet.

    (We will now start the flame war with the fools who say it is replaced with the letter 13 characters earlier in the alphabet.)

    903:

    ROT26 is twice as secure of course.

    904:

    I love the part where people criticise the messenger and not the science, while accusing the messenger of being wrong.

    It's a weird one.

    The new laser is the first to rely exclusively on superconducting electron pairs. "The fact that we use only superconducting pairs is what makes our work so significant," says Alex Rimberg, a professor of physics and astronomy at Dartmouth. Superconductivity is a condition that occurs when electricity can travel without any resistance or loss of energy.

    Dancing Electrons Are at the Heart of a Laser Breakthrough Dartmouth July 2014

    Princeton University researchers have built a rice grain-sized laser powered by single electrons tunneling through artificial atoms known as quantum dots. The tiny microwave laser, or "maser," is a demonstration of the fundamental interactions between light and moving electrons.

    Rice-sized laser, powered one electron at a time, bodes well for quantum computing Princeton Jan 2015

    Quantum Dots - Laser Application Neurengineering and Nanophotonics Laboratory, Brown University

    At this point, a lay person's explanation of why these scientists are all lying about new laser generation techniques and so on would help.

    Oh, and for all of you:

    So: We have two outlets claiming to have received exclusive ISIS intelligence bounties from a disaffected leaker. Except one (the Zaman leak) is more than a year old, and nobody seems to have noticed. Sky originally claimed to have a much larger number of files, but appears to have walked back that claim. As Agence France-Presse reported today, it appears the Sky News data set isn’t actually files on 22,000 different jihadists—Zaman al-Wasl says it’s actually around 1700 people, which is the same number included in Zaman’s “exclusive” leak.

    The Jihadist List Hyped as the 'Biggest ISIS Intelligence Haul Ever' Is a Bizarre, Inaccurate Mess Gizmodo, March 10th 2016

    If Gizmodo is signalling that it's bullshit, you probably know what the professionals think.

    905:

    If someone was using the name "Catina Diamond" on Zerohedge, we have an outsider copying our ways.

    Inception Achievement: unlocked.

    Oh, and we spelt "neuroengineering" incorrectly:

    In Bioelectronics Group, we are taking two complementary materials approaches to neural stimulation and recording: (1) Flexible polymer and hybrid optoelectronic fibers for intimate neural interfaces; (2) Magnetic nanomaterials for minimally invasive manipulation of neural activity.

    Polina Anikeeva received her BS in Physics from St. Petersburg State Polytechnic University in 2003. After graduation, she spent a year at Los Alamos National Lab where she worked on developing photovoltaic cells based on semiconductor quantum dots. She then enrolled in a PhD program in Materials Science at MIT and graduated in January 2009 with her thesis dedicated to the design of light-emitting devices based on organic materials and nanoparticles. She completed her postdoctoral training at Stanford University, where she developed implantable devices for simultaneous optical stimulation and high-throughput electronic recording from neural circuits during free behavior.

    Anikeeva joined the faculty of MIT’s Department of Materials Science and Engineering in July 2011 as the AMAX career development assistant professor. Now an assistant professor of materials science and engineering, her lab at MIT focuses on the development of flexible and minimally invasive materials and devices for neural recording, stimulation and repair. She is also a recipient of the NSF CAREER Award, DARPA Young Faculty Award and Dresselhaus Fund Award, among others.

    Electronic, Optical and Magnetic Materials for Neural Interrogation Rice University Neuroengineering, Jan 2015

    906:

    And yes: there's a joke in that there reference.

    If you don't get it, that's fine.

    But it's quite funny.

    907:

    The stellar core "quantum lasers" were my personal favourite. Well, to be fair, non-quantum lasers would have been even more remarkable ;-)

    908:

    Long forgotten how link found, recall it seemed muchly drive-by, and almost copy-pasta.

    Check outlying areas of consciousness for moonlighting!

    (Warning: May also contain jokes/references/other.)

    909:

    It's remarkable how you can ruin a good joke by repetition.

    Controlling the neuron - the development and relevance of optogenetics and magnetism in neuroscience Neuroscience, Rui Shui.

    ~

    Since I have to make these things explicit: a lot of the time I'm mocking myself.

    910:

    At this point, a lay person's explanation of why these scientists are all lying about new laser generation techniques and so on would help.

    A lay person's explanation of how quantum dots arise in a stellar core would be even more to the point. Something to do with anisotropy, perhaps?

    911:

    Probably.

    We have found highly anisotropic optical emission from individual indium phosphide quantum dots on a glass substrate. Quantum dots are semi conducting crystals of nanometer dimension, sometimes called artificial atoms. The electronic and optical properties of these particles depend strongly on their size. This dependence, due to quantum confinement, has resulted in many new optical concepts, from fluorescence labeling of biomolecules to photovoltaic solar energy conversion. Optical anisotropy has been reported for quantum dots grown epitaxially on crystalline substrates where the orientation and shape of the particles is influenced by the substrate. However, for cubic semiconductor crystals grown from solution, the existence of a preferred direction for optical absorption or em ission is not expected. These InP quantum dots will contribute to our efforts in chemical imaging at the molecular level due to their potentially anisotropic interaction with particular surface analyte molecules and their stability under intense illumination

    Optical Anisotropy of Individual Semiconductor Quantum Dots PDF Oak Ridge National Laboratory.

    ~

    You do realize that I'm not making fun out of the actual real people making all these amazing discoveries, right?

    912:

    Probably. Not. (as in "not even wrong")

    We have found highly anisotropic optical emission from individual indium phosphide quantum dots on a glass substrate.

    First Google result for "quantum dot anisotropy". Unfortunately:

    (a) not much InP in stellar cores. (b) "anisotropy" has more than one meaning in physics. You've picked the wrong one.

    You do realize that I'm not making fun out of the actual real people making all these amazing discoveries, right?

    Neither am I.

    913:

    You do realize that I do know all of that?

    ~

    Now, using that knowledge, what was happening?

    (And no: proving that I'm a bumpkin whose scientifically illiterate and you know more science than me wasn't what was happening - I already appreciate you have a deeper / better / probably long term knowledge of lasers & general theories of Matter/Energy production in Stellar Cores)

    ~

    Hint: it's supposed to be funny.

    But, if you read it like you're doing, that's how Trump happens. Just on a less sophisticated level.

    914:

    There's a difference between taking care of one's elders just as they took care of you as a child, and someone getting an itemized bill for the cost of their upbringing when they left home and a payment schedule that they're expected to follow.

    In the latter case, once the child's debt is discharged, then there is no point in taking care of the elderly parent, because that parent would simply be incurring a debt to his child that he couldn't repay, as he'd die first. Since the child would then inherit both sides of the debt, it cancels out, and the child would care for the adult for nothing.

    This is why it's so stupid to charge your children for their care. If it's a reciprocal arrangement (you care for me at the beginning of my life, I care for you at the end of yours), then it binds the family for their lives, for good or ill.

    915:

    I think we're suffering from blog thread entropy. How 'bout a new post, Charlie?

    916:

    As you say, 8-20 is the maximum size for a single manager - I have seen research that confirms that, as well as observed it.

    I work with an architectural firm that's very successful as a 20-25 person firm. They have looked hard at growing and have decided against it. There are almost no architectural firms in the US that have 25 to 50 employees. It's a dead zone where you need an additional management layer to keep things running but don't bring in enough in billings to pay for the layer.

    917:

    Well, since Murdoch's of Australian birth and US citizenship IIRC, do whatever you want with 'im.

    The best cue on crap, excuse me, stuff like this is to see whether it takes off or sinks. I do get the weird idea that some in the press actually don't like playing psyops, and kill stories that look manufactured. If this is the case (and I have no evidence, especially with Murdochian enterprises), then it's failure to spread could be taken as a measure of bogosity.

    918:

    Hey guys, we've got stealth planets in this Solar System. And plenty of smaller bodies that get close in to us before they're finally spotted.

    We obviously their "long range sensors" (or is it short range inside the solar system?) are way better than radar and telescopes. :)

    919:

    Host calls it "stunt writing" - since he's good at comedy, that's why he doesn't use it.

    Of course, the belief on the part of pro- and anti-Trumpers that the man is in some way an advocate for white nationalism, fascism, or racial holy war is wrong and foolish. The two sides in the Battle of the Trump have created their own avatars—Trump the hero of the white race vs. Trump the dastardly Hitler Klansman. It’s all delusional. Trump is neither the great white hope nor the great Nazi menace. However, with enough people viewing the Trump presidential run as a referendum on race, it has effectively become one. A proxy war between imaginary Trumps.

    A similar thing nearly happened in 2003, when the left tried its damnedest to convince California voters that Arnold Schwarzenegger was Hitler incarnate. The mainstream press portrayed Ah-nuld as a Nazi-loving rapist whose election would lead to Mexicans being sent to death camps as Einsatzgruppen squads turned Home Depot parking lots into killing fields of machine-gunned drywallers. But the right didn’t bite, and neither did Schwarzenegger, who watched his words, made few if any campaign missteps, and generally ran a clean, G-rated, inoffensive campaign, in which he pledged to be one of those jolly, likable, fiscally frugal Eisenhower Republicans that everyone can feel comfortable with.

    How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Don Taki's Magazine, 10th March 2016

    ~

    However, if you take say, the last six links I've provided, you could do two things:

    1 Make a horrible dystopia 2 Make a lovely Utopia

    So, you can assume I'm a really arrogant, dumb, stupid, trash mouthed piece of crap who burns with hatred and gets sexual pleasure from dominance games and cheering on the destruction.

    Or you can assume I've a very peculiar sense of humor and am trying to make you laugh while at the same time highlighting some serious things and generally very interesting developments and trying not to let my conscious be crushed by the vile / horrible stuff humans do all the time.

    920:

    Here I am, thinking lovely thoughts about how physics students could write lovely papers about the silliness artificial gravity could cause if it actually existed as portrayed in the movies, and instead I'm distracted by cogitations about Rupert Murdoch.

    Still, have any physicists actually had fun simulating what would happen if you could put linear gravity grids (or some such) in floors of space ships? I assume the results would be unintentionally hilarious: What would a pile of gravity grids do to the structure of the spaceship? How big a fusion generator would you need to power them all? What kind of support structure do you need? What happens if you have stacks of these things, and you have to turn off one in the middle for maintenance? How about alternating ones, or multiple ones? What happens if a ship with artificial gravity starts spinning reasonably fast, say so that it can fire its guns in a "spinning pinwheel of death" tactic? What happens when a ship with artificial gravity takes off from, say, Earth? Does it launch upside down to take the pressure off the astronauts, or what?

    This looks like a great place for college students learning how to do simulations to have a blast. Has anyone done it?

    921:

    The Holy Roman Empire

    Reading your comment got me thinking. When I think of such empires and political systems and such I tend to visualize them in a Google Maps type of view in my head. Sort of like zooming in from orbit starting a few 100 miles up.

    I grew up with flight being normal. Both airplanes and space craft. I wonder how the people of the times imagined their universe. Given that no one was ever more than a few meters above ground. And typically no more than the back of a horse above ground. If that.

    922:

    You do realize that I do know all of that?

    No, I don't believe you did.

    Now, using that knowledge, what was happening?

    A hypothesis was confirmed.

    923:

    Given that I'm generally a nice person shaped object and not given to unnecessary unpleasantness, I shall continue to assume mostly the latter (despite occasional joshing that may indicate otherwise).

    Of course, there's nothing to say that you can't be a bit of both. (Sometimes you have to get your jollies on where you can!)

    (Ditto on the consciousness crushing stuff. That shit is unpleasant.)

    924:

    When you take care of your elders as they took care of you, then that makes you (the caregiver) the authority figure. But often what happens is the elder exerts authority as an elder person and parental figure while being dependent on kindness. This is a big part of the thinking that is wrong with the world. People, or nations, exert independence and the right to do whatever they want, but they conversely assert the responsibility of others to protect them from the consequences of their free decisions. If you are taking care of someone, you get to call the shots. If you are begging, you have to give up some independence. With individuals that's fine, but regarding nations and other groups there's the matter of dragging others along with you.

    Also, all this worrying about parents is a big part of what's wrong with the world. People accept horrible religions they would never be recruited to in the wild, and they do it to honor their parents. They have children they can't support just to "keep the family line going" and honor their parents. It's like a chain letter. If you feel you are getting the short end of the stick out of the whole thing when you are treated as a child when a child and like a servant when your parents get old, then that's your mistake (within the game parameters) because you failed to pass on the chain letter. You come out even when you have children of your own. Especially if you have a big family, which is like sending the chain letter to many recipients.

    Honoring our ancestors is what's wrong with the world. We should honor everyone equally, and our parents will get their true due as part of that, though not their due under the traditional scheme.

    925:

    Is't that also a standard tactic as used by tyrannical dictators? Oh, the irony of it!

    926:

    Where HB makes an inflammatory statement, defends to the hilt, then calls it a sophisticated joke and tells everybody else that they're fools for not seeing it. My translation & interpretation of that is: She is totally untrustworthy, then. (?)

    927:

    Thank you Like I said - brain-fade ....

    928:

    But aren't we all fundamentally untrustworthy on line?

    I suspect that one of things that fundamentally bothers you about HB is that they embrace the concept that identity on line is fluid, infinitely malleable, and utterly disconnected from the real world, if you want it to be. However, you, Greg, are always you -- how you are here and elsewhere on line is exactly how one would encounter you in reality.

    Both approaches are 100% correct and 100% wrong, depending entirely on your personal point of view.

    929:

    Aside: Apologies for utterly failing to be anywhere near the topic of the OP, at any time. I'm hoping that given we're crawling towards the 1000 post mark that digressions are expected and less intolerable (ugh!) at this point.

    930:

    Deriving the shape of gravity/electric fields from lines, planes etc. is a standard undergrad exercise. Results tend to be a bit mundane unfortunately.

    e.g. infinite plane gives a constant strength field normal to the plane out to infinity. Large plane gives approximation.

    Infinite line gives 1/r. Grid of lines gives something like a plane until you get close enough to resolve details.

    If you can generate fields then you probably end up with something boringly similar to an office block which is no fun at all!

    Size of power supply you need is a bit of a tricky question - gravity couples v weakly to normal matter, nobody has any idea how it really behaves at the quantum level and there is no known way of manipulating it short of throwing big masses around.

    For fiction that means that you can make it up and and have it as easy or difficult as you like, provided that it is difficult enough for us not to have noticed something odd already. That's already in the realm of "quite hard" unfortunately.

    The software you want to play with for conservative fields is a "poisson solver". There used to be some nice browser based ones around but my google powers are a bit weak today and they seem to be hiding.

    If you want silly physics I did have a bit of fun playing with a scheme to allow FTL travel without permitting CTCs a while ago. The basic idea was "FTL information only goes one way".

    An ftl "jump" would result in an expanding spherical event horizon that would temporarily prohibit information from leaving the destination too quickly.

    FTL objects that pass through intervening space got messy - your warp drive just created a vast conical no go zone. Adding multiple spaceships made things get very ugly very fast.

    I'm not a fan of the anthropic principle but I think it's fair to say that it predicts that we don't live in that sort of universe :)

    931:

    Given that no one was ever more than a few meters above ground.

    Ummm....have you never climbed a hill?

    It's really not that difficult in many areas to get panoramic views of landscape. People have been drawing recognisable maps for at least 2000 years: it's clear that at least some people had the same visualisation as we do. There are other representations, for example the mediaeval strip maps of pilgrim routes that just showed the road, with landmarks, waypoints and stopping places (very like today's motorway maps). But it's clear that you don't need actual flight to envisage a "bird's eye view".

    932:

    I'd have thought that all planets do rotate from west to east by definition, that East is the direction in which the sun rises, or at least is the direction towards which the surface rotates, that North is to your left when you face East, and so on.

    Turns out I may have been naive, and that the IAU considers North to be the pole that points closest to the same direction as the Sun's North pole. I've not worked out whether they consider this North to be just for our solar system (in which case they need a rule for other stellar systems), or whether they have defined the entire universe as having a north and south.

    On tropes though, we are so used to the Moon rising in the same direction as the Sun does that we assume that's always the case. It's not: you just need the planet to rotate slower than the moon goes round it. You'll find that's the case with Phobos, which zips round Mars about 3 times a day and manages to rise in the opposite direction to Deimos.

    My intuition is now saying that a planet doing a suitable dance round a binary system might have a sun rise in both the east and in the west at different times.

    933:

    Nothing to do with the comment I'm replying to; I actually wanted to say thanks for all the entertainment you've given me by correcting other people's dodgy physics!

    934:

    One kind of backsplash that may help against the soul-crushing effects of disaster capitalism is to take a longer view, like so: Loot, Looty, Lootier (and Lootera). The challenge is to blend a fine shade between Pinker and Gray.

    935:

    Turns out I may have been naive, and that the IAU considers North to be the pole that points closest to the same direction as the Sun's North pole. I've not worked out whether they consider this North to be just for our solar system (in which case they need a rule for other stellar systems), or whether they have defined the entire universe as having a north and south.

    The North and South Galactic poles are defined in this way (i.e. the NGP is the Galactic pole that's in the same hemisphere as the Sun's North pole), but I suspect that if one were located in a different planetary system one would define a local north based on that star's rotation (the North pole being defined such that someone looking down from that direction sees counterclockwise rotation).

    So, in summary, if you want a planet whose climate will remain reasonably stable on a million-year timescale, I don't think it can have suns that rise in different directions. Satellites are a different matter, especially captured satellites, which can be in very strange orbits.

    My intuition is now saying that a planet doing a suitable dance round a binary system might have a sun rise in both the east and in the west at different times.

    Planets in binary systems occur in one of two regimes: either they orbit one star in a wide binary (S-type orbits) or they orbit the centre of mass of the pair of stars in a close binary (P-type orbits). In S-type orbits, the other star has to be quite a bit further away than the planet's primary, or the planet's orbit is unstable to perturbations from the second star. So, unless the second star was much more luminous than the planet's primary, inhabitants of the hypothetical planet would be unlikely to class it as a "Sun": it would be an extraordinarily bright "planet" (in the original sense of "wandering star"), and probably feature heavily in mythology/astrology/religious belief. In P-type orbits, both stars rise more-or-less together in more-or-less the same direction.

    In principle, orbits exist that have figure-8 configurations about both stars, but they are not even remotely stable—particularly as binary stars tend to have rather elliptical orbits, so the distance between the two stars varies significantly. The limits for stable orbits of planets in binary systems have been worked out: they depend, as one would expect, on the mass ratio of the two stars and the eccentricity of the binary orbit, see, for example, equations 46 and 47 of this paper (on second thoughts, run away rapidly from the equations in this paper, which are many and scary unless you've got at least A-level maths, and preferably university-level, and instead look at the nice pictures from page 35 onwards).

    936:

    Oops, put summary paragraph in wrong place - should be at the end, not at the end of the bit about north and south! That's what I get for not scrolling down the Preview window.

    937:

    Nope. Consider a planet with a very long day in an orbit around one sun, which is in a binary pair.

    The maths in that paper isn't as scary as the editing. Even in Texas, I believe that the past particple of bend is bent, and I should love to know the organisation that has registered the trademark Fortran :-)

    938:

    Single-author paper, arXiv preprint (to ensure not paywalled), probably not native English speaker (first name Manfred). The English might have been fixed in the published version, but I wouldn't guarantee it: I've seen very dubious English in papers by non-native speakers in the literature. To be fair, if I were to try to write a paper in German it would probably be at least equally bad.

    As I said in the previous post, if a planet orbits one star in a binary pair, the other has to be a fair distance away in order to avoid destabilising the planet's orbit, so probably wouldn't be regarded as a second sun by the inhabitants of the planet.

    Interestingly, it appears that the plane of such a planetary system need not align with the plane of the stars' orbit, which means that if you do regard the second star as a "sun", it could rise in all sorts of weird directions.

    939:

    Here's another question about space opera, not a trope but just a definition issue. Can a story be part space opera? For example, Star Trek is unequivocally Space Opera. But consider the Original Star Trek episode "Operation Annihilate!" Except that it had to link to the Star Trek setting, this story about alien mind parasites had similar elements to other non space opera science fiction, including Heinlein's "The Puppet Masters". Or consider Baxter's "Destiny's Children" series. It has definite space opera elements, but Coalescent, for example, is not space opera at all. So, does a single drop of space opera blood make a work space opera?.

    940:

    That's why I said editing. My wife works in a research organisation with mostly non-English speakers, and spends a lot of time helping colleagues with exactly such details. The paper indicates a lack of such support in the author's department.

    Actually, I think that any 'star' 100 times brighter than a full moon would be considered a secondary sun, which is the figure at 20 AU separation for an equal star, and 20 AU gives ample stability.

    941:

    100 times less bright than the moon but still 400 times less bright than a sun at 1AU.

    My money would be on it getting its own word.

    942:

    I think we're suffering from blog thread entropy. How 'bout a new post, Charlie?

    Not today.

    I'm exhausted and burned-out -- I should be grappling with a partial and outline on a new space opera, but instead I'm just staring at cute cat pictures on Reddit and going "bleah" at the world.

    943:

    The quick way to skip the dead zone would be to merge with a similar-sized practice -- run them as two separate business units in parallel, drawing on each other's specialist resources where necessary, while spinning off a very lean new office to take on additional staff as and when they're needed. But that takes agility and goodwill on both sides of the merger: not a road commonly taken.

    944:

    Martin got hit the hard way: via the Presidential Office no less. Will he respond? Will he apologize? Will he stop claiming I'm trolling? Like fuck he will: Ego death is too locked up in hierarchy. So, here's the deal: Instead of wanking off, do some research.

    I would disagree with your assertion that "I got hit"; fortunately, my ego is secure enough not to be damaged because someone shouted insults on the internet, and I'm thick-skinned enough not to be bothered by what appears to be attention-seeking crudity.

    So; I will continue to ignore the vast majority of your posts (as others have pointed out, a very few of them actually make some sort of sense at first reading). Have fun decreasing both the signal-to-noise ratio, and my opinion of your reasoning ability.

    945:

    The paper indicates a lack of such support in the author's department.

    Probably, but I don't think that's at all uncommon—there's nobody in my department with such a role. (As an experimental particle physicist, all my papers are joint works of large collaborations, and the internal reviewing procedure will usually catch errors of English—I've de-Japanglished several T2K papers—but a single-author paper written by a non-native speaker in my department (and we have several such people) would likely escape unmodified.)

    20 AU is indeed far enough for stability, assuming solar-type stars so that the habitable orbit is 1 AU, and furthermore assuming circular orbits, which at this spacing is a bit unrealistic: for example, the semi-major axis of the α Centauri binary is 23 AU, but the eccentricity is 0.51, which means periastron distance is only 11 AU—still OK for Earth, but anything past Mars is in trouble. Assuming equal stars, the second star at 20 AU would be 1/400 as bright as the main sun. That's a big difference, and it would also look very different (if it's a solar-type main-sequence star, it subtends 1.5 arc minutes, which is at the very limit of resolution for the Mark 1 Eyeball, so it's practically a point source). Personally, I don't think the natives will regard it as being in the same category as their sun, though—as I said—I'm sure it will get special attention in planetary religions. It would be an interesting target for the local equivalents of Galileo and Kepler, though.

    946:

    Simple, just do HMS Pinafore set in space.

    947:

    I agree, both with this comment and dpb - it would be a term of its own, but definitely not thought of as the brightest star, in the way that Venus is. On the editing aspect, I agree that such isolation is common, but it's STILL scary; in particular, it is also associated with scientific mistakes (especially methodological) getting through.

    948:

    You're free to believe anything you want.

    But the fact that the paper quoted contains the lines "Quantum dots are semi conducting crystals" and "sometimes called artificial atoms" suggests otherwise, I would politely put forward.

    Unless I'm literally not reading the words I'm quoting.

    Although - using GM'd bacteria to manufacture them is really interesting Patent - ugh, all from being able to patent that oil eater. I mean, really? Patenting the entire process not just individual organisms?

    However, to suggest that the action that they produce (Quantum Containment etc) doesn't happen in the Sun is a bit much, surely?

    Physics of the Sun: A First Course p 121

    This states that quantum effects do not occur in the middle of the Sun due to de Broglie's work (and yes: a first course to show my belly).

    The problem is, I recognize that phrase:

    Pilot wave theory, Bohmian metaphysics, and the foundations of quantum mechanics - Not even wrong. Why does nobody like pilot-wave theory? PDF, lecture, TCM - Cambridge

    ~

    At this point I see a huge scientist argument going on and lots of mud flinging from all camps etc and know that I'm totally out of my depth so I'm not going to serve as a proxy for anything but cats.

    949:

    No, that would be silly.

    There's no hits happening.

    As would it be silly to suggest that I have any effect on real world politics, I'm just a mug in front of a computer.

    'Distracted' David Cameron helped turn Libya into a 'mess', Barack Obama says Independent 10th March 2016

    U.K. press blast Obama for "extraordinary" criticism of Cameron CBSNews 11th March 2016.

    Anyhow, Host appears depressed and I'm dragging in stuff that's not relevant.

    ~

    Apologies & I'll vamoose.

    950:

    Single-author paper, arXiv preprint (to ensure not paywalled), probably not native English speaker (first name Manfred).

    A quick search turns up a 1989 Ph.D. thesis at one of the Heidelberg institutes, so, yes, probably German.

    The English might have been fixed in the published version, but I wouldn't guarantee it

    The published version of the paper is here (no longer behind a paywall). I haven't tried evaluating the quality of the English, though a quick search shows that "bended" has been replaced by "bent"...

    951:

    On the editing aspect, I agree that such isolation is common, but it's STILL scary; in particular, it is also associated with scientific mistakes (especially methodological) getting through.

    What makes you think he's "isolated"? (A quick check of ADS shows that he averages having between two and three coauthors on his papers in the last five years.)

    Frankly, for a (presumably) non-native-speaker (and non-Dutch person), his English in the preprint is pretty good. And if you read enough scientific literature, you get used to the idea that the grammatical purity of one's English is not a very good predictor of scientific quality.

    952:

    David L: your google search term is "isochrone map". Here's a fun little piece of clickbait with various isochrone maps showing travel times for different historical periods.

    953:

    The paper indicates a lack of such support in the author's department.

    Or lack of ability. I've worked with departments where everyone was a non-native English speaker. Their documentation was arcane to read — not through any fault of their own.

    954:

    To answer the question for yourself, go find a copy of Iain Banks' novel "Walking on Glass" -- sold without the "M" initial as mainstream lit-fic, but there's a sub-plot that I will swear is set in the Culture universe. Is it space opera or is it literature-genre fiction? Who the fuck knows?

    More broadly: I think space opera is a flavour and you can mix it with other flavours to good (and bad) effect.

    955:

    Another 'talk-about-anything' post?

    Or a guest post? Maybe Susan could write a 'physics for SF authors' post for you? That would be a treat to read…

    956:

    I would hope that they would use a speling chequer in that case; it would have picked up bended. And putting an R after Fortran is just plain sloppy. That sort of thing in papers that become viral is how scientific myths develop. Seriously. Yes, I know that I am a (retired) pedant.

    957:

    I know replying to you is idiotic and will result in either insults or reams of gibberish—probably both—but still...

    This states that quantum effects do not occur in the middle of the Sun due to de Broglie's work (and yes: a first course to show my belly).

    No it doesn't: it states that electron degeneracy pressure isn't important in the Sun (which I accidentally said it was, thinking of the red giant stage of the Sun's life—but Peter fixed that for me, thanks Peter). Of course quantum effects are important in the Sun: solar hydrogen fusion goes by quantum tunnelling, as first worked out in 1929 by Atkinson and Houtermans, and first fully described in 1939 by Hans Bethe.

    At this point I see a huge scientist argument going on and lots of mud flinging from all camps etc

    You may see it, but you have a vivid imagination. The physics of the solar interior is rather well understood (note the dates of the above papers). Quantum dots are also rather well understood, and fun things to play with (other people in my department do). The two have no connection whatsoever; for a start, the core temperature of the Sun is north of 107 K, and quantum dots are solid-state phenomena. There are no solid states at 10 million degrees: this should be reasonably obvious.

    and know that I'm totally out of my depth

    So you are. So don't witter on about it, OK? (The fact that you can be so bombastically arrogant about something that you clearly know nothing about is actually quite useful: it convinces me that I don't need to read the rest of your rants, because you fail my reality check, big-time.)

    958:

    Quantum dots are also rather well understood

    Boo! Hiss! They were relatively new when I was doing my degree, and people were still publishing interesting papers about them.

    Now I officially feel old! :)

    959:

    Serious response:

    Could you explain why Quantum Confinement / Quantum Size Effects are thought not to occur in the Sun, please?

    With regards to metallicity / edge and (later) degenerate matter.

    (Which is where I was ham-fistedly going with de Broglie)

    An answer from someone who is a) authoritative and b) not me would help immensely.

    960:

    "The physics of the solar interior is rather well understood"

    Well, a cynic would say that the model has been fiddled with enough to ensure that there are no remaining discrepancies :-) But I am really talking about a much more arcane level than the one being discussed here (e.g. the not-yet-dead neutrino mass issue). I don't quite know where HB picked up the conflation of quantum dots and the solar interior from.

    961:

    To be precise:

    Is it total insanity to even imagine that those two effects occur on the shell of a star (surface / near surface)?

    962:

    The trouble with spellcheckers in scientific papers is that they tend to have nervous breakdowns: we use too many technical words that spellcheckers don't believe in. After you ignore the 400th flagged word that's just someone's name, something's name, or a technical word (selectron, gluino, neutralino), your eyes glaze over and you ignore all further flags. I agree with Peter: the English of that preprint is pretty good. Much better than that of my (native English speaking) undergraduates, sigh...

    Errors in scientific methodology should be picked up by refereeing—that's what it's for—and the acknowledgments do thank an anonymous referee, so this process has happened. I don't know why he thought Fortran was a registered trademark—probably just got trigger-happy after Mathematica and Matlab (both of which are commercial products, so they probably are registered).

    963:

    I didn't say they weren't interesting, I said the physics of what's going on is understood (which, of course, isn't the same thing as saying that it lends itself to calculations!).

    They hadn't even been thought of when I was writing my thesis!

    964:

    Charlie said: I'm exhausted and burned-out -- I should be grappling with a partial and outline on a new space opera, but instead I'm just staring at cute cat pictures on Reddit and going "bleah" at the world.

    I think that you just solved your problem, Charlie.

    You have always wanted to have a story with uplifted cats. Why not have Dangerously Capable Cats(tm) building a Space Empire. You could start with Cats in Space for book one. Then in book two tell how they took over their home-world, turning the pesky humans into pets(It worked for Planet of the Apes), and then moved into space. Then book three continues with the Cat Princess being captured by Dread Cat Pirates(tm). You would have a fun series that you could revisit for years in between Laundry books.

    The power of doing a Space Opera with Cats in Space is that you could play with the limits and tropes without incurring the wrath of the ever present Space Cadets.

    I would read such a series.

    966:

    And no, this isn't a sealion.

    Serious question (I understand the temperature reference, and even pointed it out with a quotation referencing crystals / superconductors which are low-temperature).

    967:

    OK, one last try...

    To quote someone's online textbook,

    "The most popular term in the nano world is quantum confinement effect which is essentially due to changes in the atomic structure as a result of direct influence of ultra-small length scale on the energy band structure. The length scale corresponds to the regime of quantum confinement ranges from 1 to 25 nm for typical semiconductor groups of IV, III-V and II-VI. In which the spatial extent of the electronic wave function is comparable with the particle size. As a result of these “geometrical” constraints, electrons “feel” the presence of the particle boundaries and respond to changes in particle size by adjusting their energy. This phenomenon is known as the quantum-size effect."

    Now, note the words I have emphasised in bold.

    • atomic structure: there are very few atoms in the Sun. At the temperatures of the solar interior, the material is a plasma, composed of ions and electrons. In such a medium, "atomic structure" simply isn't a relevant concept. It is true that, at least near the surface, most of the heavier elements are only singly ionised, so they do still have atomic structure—but they're surrounded by a sea of plasma.
    • energy band structure: this is the way electrons are distributed in solid metals, semiconductors and insulators. The Sun is not solid. There are no energy band structures to be influenced.
    • typical semiconductor groups: as someone noted above, the Sun is not especially rich in indium phosphide! The most common semiconductor element in the Sun is silicon, which makes up 0.004% of the number of atomic nuclei in the Sun. As a gas, not a solid.

    You cannot make quantum dots in the Sun because it is a totally inappropriate material. You can't make quantum dots in water either. You need a crystalline solid; actually, you usually want two related crystalline solids, with different lattice constants.

    Making quantum dots is a tricky experimental technique: you need to deposit very thin (practically monatomic) layers of crystal B on substrate A, to get it to buckle in just the right way. As far as I know, they don't occur naturally even at reasonable temperatures in appropriate materials. They most definitely are not going to occur in impure H/He plasma at >6000 K.

    968:

    You cannot make quantum dots in the Sun because it is a totally inappropriate material. You can't make quantum dots in water either. You need a crystalline solid; actually, you usually want two related crystalline solids, with different lattice constants.

    Q: how about the surface/crust layers of an old/cold neutron star? (He asks hopefully ...)

    969:

    Yes, I have that open on a tab.

    I never meant to say Quantum Dot = possible = Sun (in fact, I didn't - that was sniping by dpb. You can go look at the original posts. It's poisoning the well, a well known technique Just because a single link had use of QDs doesn't mean that was what I was saying).

    I was trying to understand something else, which I do not at the moment (and perhaps for my entire life).

    Numerical Renormalization Group Study of Probability Distributions for Local Fluctuations in the Anderson-Holstein and Holstein-Hubbard Models Imperial College London

    Surely at the most basic level these two categories (Stars) / (Nano) are utilizing the same types of physics? And surely DMFT etc must also be working?

    ~

    shrug

    It would be lovely if translation services could render these types of things in cascading definitions.

    Anyhow: Dpb has his way.

    970:

    HB: You are currently averaging 11 comments/day on the blog, up from an average of 5/day back last year when you were CinaD.

    Don't you think you might want to back off a little and put more coherent thought into them? Putting up a wall of copypasta-like links is counterproductive in terms of getting people to pay attention, and if you're just using my blog for linkspamming, I'd kindly ask you to take it elsewhere.

    971:

    And no - I'm not claiming or spiking or trumping.

    I'm trying to understand why field theory / magnetic effects etc has different effects at the two ends.

    I don't understand it.

    On a meta level: there's no translation / simple "Explain like 5" for these types of things.

    There desperately needs to be (not just the nestled "And now kids, everything you learnt... WAS WRONG!").

    Otherwise everyone gives up and starts disbelieving in dinosaurs.

    972:

    Ok.

    Noted, will do.

    Sorry.

    973:

    Hmmm...

    That is a much more plausible location. The fusion stage that makes the iron core of the supernova progenitor is silicon fusion, so it is quite possible that there might be significant amounts of Si on the surface of a neutron star. By itself that doesn't help—you don't have a strained lattice—but some of the by-products of silicon fusion are zinc and sulphur, and you can most definitely make quantum dots out of zinc sulphide (just google it).

    So, not impossible to imagine that the crust of an old neutron star might have layers of impure ZnS with enough lattice mismatch to make quantum dots.

    Not my field, so I can't make a definite statement, but certainly a plausible hypothesis.

    974:

    You asked "Could you explain why Quantum Confinement / Quantum Size Effects are thought not to occur in the Sun, please?"

    That is asking why you can't make quantum dots in the Sun. So don't claim you didn't.

    975:

    It would indeed, she is certainly educating me in this thread.

    976:

    Yes, but by then I was just attempting to get a bridge.

    For the record:

    In 2011, Japanese scientists stumbled across a discovery which increased a metal compound's superconductivity by immersing iron-based compounds in hot alcoholic beverages such as red wine

    ferropnictides / Iron-based superconductor

    After people have been willfully ignoring why things are posted you just shrug and attempt to get a definitional.

    The point was that I'd never claimed QDs existed in the Sun.

    At any point.

    p.s.

    The above + DMFT etc is interesting.

    977:

    You might want to see if you can track down some high pressure physicists as well.

    Interesting things happen to otherwise dull materisls when you get to a few gigapascals, at least if you believe a friend of mine who researches that kind of thing. You might find some suitable quantum dot building materials that can't exist in our environment.

    978:

    ...and the take away from that is probably either:

    a) Total blonde idiot

    or

    b) If I wanted to suggest QDs existed in the Sun I'm quite capable of asking it in science terms

    ?

    Oh boy.

    Anyhow - you're not going to believe it, but DMFT & FeSC is quite exciting.

    It also probably answers that degenerate matter / iron star thing.

    Maybe.

    979:

    Me: Is it total insanity to even imagine that those two effects occur on the shell of a star (surface / near surface)

    Susan: Yes

    I'm sooo glad I didn't then and it was a Dpb / Richard H attack.

    Go check - 0% Quantum Dot = Sun.

    Quantum effects and same Quantum Physics? Sure.

    QDs.

    Nope.

    ~

    Yeah. RFC/RFTM.

    Real nice career you had their boys. I can't imagine you ever ever ever did that to other women or minorities. Nice little pincer move.

    Hint: Russian / Jewish entry exams or USA / Black voting questions.

    It's not a new technique.

    Glad to see the tradition alive though.

    And, since host has asked me nicely for a long holiday:

    DMFT + High Temperature Iron Superconductors.

    Did you see what I did there?

    Yep.

    You got out-scienced.

    Irony.

    We're good at it.

    980:

    Millions of ordinary Americans support Donald Trump. Here's why Guardian, 8th March 2016

    The article takes about trade. I agree but trade is just one aspect of Trump (and Bernie's) appeal.

    As Joe Scarborough says "people are fed up about being lied to by their politicians for the last 50 years". Not exactly a quote but close enough.

    The R's have been saying elect me and: - All abortions will be outlawed - Taxes will be cut in half - Government will mostly be abolished. - whatever The D's have been saying elect me and: - Schools will be free (well student debt will go away) - Everyone will get a college degree - Everyone will get a high paying professional job - Government will fix all your issues - whatever

    And they have consistently not delivered. (Free trade is just one part of this.) Both blame the other for their failure to deliver.

    But the public is getting fed up and voting for anyone who is NOT from the "establishment". This is where the Tea Party stated before it got hijacked.

    But if you look at Trump and Sanders they are the two outsiders. And on the R side for the last year the outsiders have dominated. Trump, Forina, Carson, etc...

    Network is really happening. "We're as mad as hell and not going to take it anymore."

    981:

    Did we ever have the Space Opera Cliche that the engineering crew are brewing/distilling booze somewhere in the pipework? This cliche makes more sense than some of the others; once your story has people* on a spaceship* with a knowledge of chemistry etc. and not under strict supervision* then they're almost certain to be making alcohol! Assuming your ship is dry like the US Navy rather than being civilised and having a bar with a big window so several alien species can watch the stars whizz by while getting hammered on unlikely chemicals

    • More work needed
    982:

    So, not impossible to imagine that the crust of an old neutron star might have layers of impure ZnS with enough lattice mismatch to make quantum dots.

    I'd worry a little about the confounding effects of high pressure (as dpb pointed out) and also the extremely strong magnetic fields typical of neutron stars -- ordinary version of quantum dots that work in laboratories might not behave the same way under those conditions.

    On the other hand, my (very) limited reading in this area turns up references to models of neutron star crust that are partly based on lattice physics models for ordinary solids -- except that the "atoms" making up the lattice are exotic neutron-rich nuclei surrounded by a combination of relativistic, degenerate electron gas and a dense gas of free neutrons. There are even analogs to the band energies of metals, except that they're for the energies of the free neutrons.

    So I can imagine there might be some rather complex and unusual structures possible in the crust of a neutron star, below the thin layer of normal (but very high pressure) atomic material itself. (And that's before you get to the "nuclear pasta" layer closer to the actual degenerate-neutron core, or factor in the possible effects of neutron superfluids in the crust.)

    983:

    "True" post scarcity requires that everyone can have that if they want.

    Then we will never get there. There is a non trivial number of people who only think they will be happy when they have "more" than everyone else.

    984:

    colostomies can be reversed relatively easily

    This would be the first thing in my 50 years of desire to go into space that would give me pause if offered to spend a week or two on the ISS.

    985:

    And, if CD/HB is drunkenly ranting, why should we have to put up with it?

    We put up with your sober rants. Or so I assume. And if you don't think you rant at times well....

    986:

    Ummm....have you never climbed a hill?

    Uh, when I climb a hill I'm still on the "ground".

    It's really not that difficult in many areas to get panoramic views of landscape.

    But it's not "common".

    When I was a child I tended to think of the world in 2D. Sure there ware some pictures taking from airplanes and space but the world I lived in was basically north and south. Yes some hills but I followed the terrain.

    Now we fly all the time. (Me way more than the average person.) And the Internet brings us all kinds of views from 1000s of feet up. No mountain climbing needed. And hope you get a clear day to boot.

    As I said I think we view the world a bit differently than people before that balloon ride in Paris. WWI really changed things in terms of lots of people and photographs from altitude.

    987:

    Ah, the "all militaries are just like your own" trope :) Of course, the British Armed Services aren't "dry", just occasionally sensible and pragmatic.

    I was amused to hear the apocryphal tale (alright, it was a normally reliable source on ARRSE) that because the R-class SSBNs of the Royal Navy were designed before the rum ration was abolished in the Royal Navy, the design included a rum vat that had capacity suitable for the duration of a deterrence patrol...

    988:

    Not common? I guess that depends where you are. In much of Britain you'd have your work cut out to avoid encountering panoramic views; much else of it you don't have to go more than a few miles to find one. Even in the dead flat fenland areas in the east there are church towers and trees, and thanks to the flatness even such a modest elevation gives you an excellent view.

    Only the other day I found a photo of the city mislabelled as having been taken from an aircraft; it was actually taken from the top of the cathedral tower, but you can easily see how someone who doesn't know that view could make the mistake.

    989:

    We're talking different scales. You and Susan are talking in a km or few. I'm talking in 10s and 100s of km.

    990:

    If you'd said 90% or 95% - I'd have agreed with you!

    991:

    Be VERY VERY careful when mentioning David Bohm. My old boss ( & freind & still alive ) introduced me to this subject, back in the early 1970's when you were not supposed to mention it in polite scientific society, nor the QM/Gen-Rel "Mismatch" The latter is now respectable again & people are working on it - too important to ignore. Bohm is still in outer darkness - something to do with his POLITICAL views I believe ....

    992:

    AND Charlie, too ... "Dragon's Egg" - Robt. L Forward

    993:

    READ Charlie @ 973 again?

    994:

    Distillation in space opera. Off the top of my head: The Mote in God's Eye, The Forever War (Both based on US style military). Even Heinlein's Rolling Stone family.

    995:

    Meanwhile, some fairly big tech news - proof of principle that we can operate computers at the Landauer Limit: http://phys.org/news/2016-03-magnetic-chips-energy-efficiency.html

    Now all we need is a similar demonstration of reversible computing and the whole worry over computing power versus energy can be tidied away as a mere engineering problem.

    996:

    That's a very good answer, but I think I'll try to boil it down to something more accessible to a layman.

    Semiconductor physics depends on order. If a material has a repetitive structure (and some other conditions are met), then there are large numbers of states that its electrons can occupy with very similar energies, and electrons can "hop" between states very easily. The mixing of states with similar energies gives rise to semiconductor physics.

    Stars are hot. Heat promotes entropy. The sorts of orderly arrangements of atoms that are required for quantum dot-type physics are not likely to be found in stars.

    Now I officially feel old! :)

    Me too, but that happens to everyone unless something worse happens first.

    997:

    "The sorts of orderly arrangements of atoms that are required for quantum dot-type physics are not likely to be found in stars."

    Not so sure at the nuclear level. Conventional quantum dots need solid state chemistry. However, quantum confinement does not mean "electrons only".

    998:

    I've read it—in fact, I think I still have it.

    But it was written in 1980, nearly a decade before the development of quantum dots, so it's not relevant to what Charlie was asking. And, if I recall correctly, it's probably set rather deeper into the star, in the layers where the relevant reactions are nuclear rather than chemical.

    999:

    In a star, probably not. When nuclei get close enough for their wavefunctions to significantly overlap, they either fuse or the Coulombic forces quickly force them apart. They're not going to build an ordered structure.

    In a neutron star, a small isolated sliver of neutronium might have physics analogous to a quantum dot. I'm a chemist by training, so we're beyond my knowledge on that one.

    Of course, any such material's usefulness will be limited by the fact that it's only stable in an absurdly pressurized environment.

    1000:

    Haven't read the next post - will do now - a cold intervened - but perhaps I should refer to myself as Confused of Oakland in the future :-)

    Glad to hear about new translations of Lem. I have enjoyed the recent emergence of new editions of Russian authors such as the Strugatsky brothers. I had heard of, but not read, these authors so it's been great to finally read them.

    I would recommend, if anyone has the odd 3 hours to spare, watching How to be a God. One of the most enjoyable films I have seen in some time.

    1001:

    Oops - Hard to be a God not How to be a God.

    1002:

    Maybe related: although perhaps just a math trick:

    Spin models were invented to explain magnetic materials, such as iron and nickel. Those metals can be magnetized because each of their atoms acts like a tiny bar magnet. At high temperatures, the jiggling atoms point in random directions and their magnetic fields cancel one another. However, below the so-called Curie temperature, the material undergoes a "phase transition" much like water freezing into ice, and all the atoms suddenly point in the same direction. That alignment reduces the atoms' total energy and makes their magnetic fields add together. Because each atom's magnetism originates from the spin of an unpaired electron within it, models of how magnetism arises are known as spin models.

    ‘Shocking’ unification reduces a lot of tough physics problems to just one Science AAAS, 10th March 2016.

    ~

    And, all regulars.

    Seriously: the levels of respect and wink that you've all had long and distinguished careers and know your stuff should just be a given and that my input is all just pure Google-Fu.

    If it's an insult it's probably an ironic sly wink and doffed cap.

    Compared to you all, I think we all know I'm just a puddle of wee (Weird retro translation of "piss pot" from another language).

    [I now have to hope you're all alright. Not Fun Space - price paid in head fuck land. But no, not a Fascist in any sense of the word. Goddesses aren't fascists, and I'm not a Goddess and so on]

    ~

    Submission. [And yes: post count will drastically reduce naturally anyhow, promise to spike Truml / Lizard Cruz done]

    Exhausting 24hrs.

    No-one cares, but I care: FUBAR.

    1003:

    "proof of principle that we can operate computers at the Landauer Limit"

    Wow, did not expect to see that this decade. That and AlphaGo, twin surprises. I was recruited to apply for a DARPA grant maybe 5 years ago to work on monte carlo tree search focused on Go. Refused, because DARPA and because scary military applications came to mind way to easily. But the AlphaGo people would have crushed us; they managed to get Monte Carlo tree search to work for Go with a smart player somehow. (Haven't read the paper.) Truly superhuman levels of play are possible, early example being realtime rollouts in backgammon using statistical pruning and many instances of a expert-human-level TD (self) trained neural-network player. (Found a paper On-line Policy Improvement using Monte-Carlo Search (1997? G. Tesauro and G. R. Galperin). That was harder to find than it should have been.)

    1004:

    Yeah, that's basically the same sort of phenomenon. Magnets have a bunch of atoms in an orderly lattice, the order allows electrons to exhibit collective behaviors, and there's not too much thermal agitation adding randomness to the system.

    1005:

    Ah well, I would suggest that a narrowing of the range of scales on which one's personal environment may be described is one aspect of the difference between "then" and "now".

    It has struck me as I walk down the road to the post office that I am covering the same kind of distance that would have been the everyday range of an old-time peasant, which leads to speculation of what kind of vision of the world such a peasant would have had. I end up imagining it'd be much the same as the view I had of the village I lived in when I was about 5: detailed knowledge of the ground features, plus an overall view of their relationships derived from synthesising that knowledge that is somewhere between a bird's eye view and a map, covering an overall radius of a mile or two; beyond that everything fades into a green haze, marked not so much "here be dragons" as "here be more trees and fields and stuff, but they are strange"; in one direction a tentacle of known pathways reaches out to the principal town of the area, described by the ground-feature view but not the map view; other towns are known to exist, but they are A Long Way Away, and semi-fantastical. At one edge of the village was an escarpment giving a panoramic view over the countryside away from the village; that escarpment was The Border, and so the countryside beyond, while visible for some distance, was not mapped, but its appearance from that viewpoint provided a sense of what things look like from above that fed into the synthesis of the bird's-eye/map view of the "known" area.

    The Aristocracy, by contrast, used to do things like marching armies up and down the country from one end to the other while manoeuvring to encounter or to bypass opposing armies. This implies that they must have had a reasonably accurate map-like appreciaton on a national scale in order to make it work.

    And then there is the Ptolemy map in Susan's link, which while somewhat distorted is immediately recognisable by reference to modern world maps. So a few people at least must have had an overall view of the world comparable to that which is common today.

    1006:

    AlphaGo In the BBC commentary on this, it was said: Unlike the real world, a closed system of fixed rules suits computing. But the so-called "real world" IS a closed system of fixed rules - they are called. The Laws of Physics. Um. [ There's a slight complication in there, of course .... ]

    1007:

    A wee correction re. Medieval peasants. ALthough it depends on exactly when you are talking about, with people being freer with the end of feudalism and ending of being tied to the land, basically, by the late medieval period in England and elsewhere, there was a lot more travel and movement of people than you or many others think of. Of course many stayed within 10 miles of their home and as you say had narrow purviews.

    But, apart from people travelling about to find work or become apprentices in the towns, or returning from the towns, ordinary people did go on pilgrimage, which could involve a day or two walking to a nearby shrine to a full on trek across England to Canterbury or suchlike. Moreover there were packmen who sold small goods out of their packs, and markets where travelling merchants would sell things they had brought over a fair distance, and swapped news and gossip. Not to mention the households of the nobility - their servants were just as well travelled as the noblemen were, because you need the servants to keep a noble household going and how would anyone know you were a noble except for your coat of arms, dress and the fact you've got 50 people behind you?

    So firstly, it wasn't just the aristocracy that had a good idea of the realm as a whole (and they also relied on locals for information and guidance), and an appreciable amount of information was available to the common person, should they be interested (I have no doubt many were not, just like nowadays) about how the King's armies were faring in France, or how the crops are doing 100 miles away, and so on.

    1008:

    Not quite. Almost no peasant with dependents (including parents) could do a lot of moving or go on pilgrimages, and the servants that attended the nobility when travelling were not really peasants. So it would have been almost entirely hearsay, and usually at third-hand.

    1009:

    Yes, it is. I find the writings of the True Believers in the current theories of extreme physics irritating at best, and I am unconvinced in the realism of such speculation (and that is what it is, despite their claims).

    1010:

    Which bit in the medieval period are you talking about? By the end pretty much anyone could go on pilgrimage, and the word peasant had lost much of its meaning. Plus noble households had lesser gentry sorts indeed, so they weren't peasants, but guess who did the actual work - people of peasant stock!

    1011:

    You're missing the point. The pilgrimage season was the farming and growing season, which was also be busiest time for associated activities. To go on an extended pilgrimage, a peasant would have had to have enough spare resources for himself/herself and any dependents for much of a year, which is close to being incompatible with being a peasant. Also, when travelling, the nobility did NOT take the scullions etc., which were the domestic equivalent of the (farming) peasantry. I don't know if it has been investigated, but I would be pretty certain that, when healthy male peasants were taken for wars and crusades, many of their dependents starved.

    My point was that travelling more than 10-20 miles was dependent on the demise of the peasant as a social class. Using the term 'peasant' for the later rural working class is as misleading as calling the underclass that Thatcher created the working class. Though only historically harmful, unlike the latter usage :-(

    1012:

    My point is that stochastic tree search (with 10s of thousands or millions of instances of smart (or even not very smart, but unbiased) agents gaming out a situation in parallel, and with smart tree shaping) could potentially be applied many types of real-world conflict or adversarial situations. (I don't know the state of the art for war-gaming as a military decision tool, and don't really want to know to be honest, but if anyone has any pointers...)

    1013:

    Was worried. Good to see your posts, here, and in the other thread.

    1014:

    Oh, sure, there were lots of people with an intermediate level of knowledge, but it was the ends of the scale I was after illustrating, and particularly the lower end.

    The availability of news was startlingly good given that the fastest carrier was a horse, but knowing what's going on in places A Long Way Away doesn't really help you much to construct a mental map of them. (Much like the hobbits in LOTR having a reasonably good idea of what's going on, but (especially Sam) being pretty vague about where all these exotic places were and what the distances were like.)

    1015:

    Well no, you're not making yourself clear.
    Yes, people weren't running off on pilgrimage all year round whenever they liked. That much is obvious.

    But actually, pilgrimages weren't all to Compostella or suchlike. There were short and long ones, and the former doesn't preclude travelling more than say 10 miles, i.e. outside the previously suggested circuit of knowledge, sometimes quite often. People often begged as a method of getting enough food and accomodation for the journey, which was permitted, although they should have had an official 'passport' as it were recognising that they were going on pilgrimage.

    Then there is the matter of timing. Yes, lots of people would be stuck to their job in the summer, and some shrines and destinations were very busy in their specific saints days, but it could also be done whenever, and autumn/ end of winter wouldn't be too bad for travelling. People then also had neighbours who could look after things on the farm/ business, and there were legal method of leaving things ticking over.

    Then we get onto households. They became more settled during the period when pilgrimage became popular, with the 13th century involving a lot of travel and not so much by the 15th. However households contained a lot of people who were not just scullions, like those who looked after horses or the joiner who would deal with various wooden works and probably wood things that were dismantled and carried with the household such as beds and no doubt windows if they were rich enough.

    WHich seems a good place to mention itinerant tradesmen who were taken on for a year or two and then travelled on somewhere else, no doubt bearing whatever news and ideas they had picked up in their stay. And anyway, servants were not all tied to one place and some were employed on a temporary basis.

    As for healthy male peasants being taken for war, that depend on which country and period you are talking about. I have seen your suggestion made before, but in Britain I've never read or heard of any evidence for such a problem, in the normal operations of the feudal system. Indeed, given the falling apart of the feudal system in the last two centuries of the medieval period, that is even less likely because they were raising a lot of fighting men from those who actually wanted to go away to war. Of course some always left behind dependents, it was one way to escape a marriage.

    You'll have to suggest a different term for 'peasant' then. For instance it's used by Christpher Dyer in his book "making a living in the middle ages", and he's a professional academic researcher of decades of experience whose word I trust more than yours, you anonymous internet commentator.

    Finally, I had a look in "The stripping of the Altars" by Eamon Duffy. He discusses, on page 200 of the paperback, the local sant W"alstan of Bawburgh, 5 miles from Norwich. Apparently there was an annual pilgrimage for his feast day of the 30th of May, with a wide variety of people going, including mowers and sythe followers as well as well to do laity. Various miracles are associated with the shrine, including one from a man from Colville, which seems to be a town 30 miles away, although many of the miracles are of course about people who are local or live in Bawburgh.

    1016:

    Thanks for the information about Saint Walstan.Next time I visit the pub at Bawburgh I'll call in at the church.

    1017:

    Nothing changes - I have altered one word in your quote: Oh, sure, there are lots of people with an intermediate level of knowledge, but it was the ends of the scale I was after illustrating, and particularly the lower end. Questions on radio yesterday, interviewing passers-by on the street, a.k.a. your average British Moron. Neither knew not cared as to what EU / referendum / "Europe" was &/or was about & the differences between the geographical, political & economic entities. Pathetic

    1018:

    I thought that the consequences were obvious :-( Yes, people regularly travelled short distances (e.g. under 10 miles to the nearest market town), and occasionally a bit further (e.g. to the nearest cathedral city or shrine), but to imply that implies knowledge of events hundreds of miles away is just wrong. At best, an incredibly mangled account of major events gets through (the Chinese whisper effect). And, as for thousands, forget it! I have lived in communities with just such travelling patterns, incidentally, and have known people who have researched into such communication patterns.

    "I have seen your suggestion made before, but in Britain I've never read or heard of any evidence for such a problem, in the normal operations of the feudal system." No, you wouldn't. It is well-known why - and I do know some experts in that general area. Almost all of our records are from and about the higher classes, and they generally noted starvation among the peasantry only when it was exceptionally widespread and severe. Starvation after poor summers was normal, and such levels were just shrugged off.

    On the meaning of peasant, from the OED: "A person who lives in the country and works on the land, esp. as a smallholder or a labourer; (chiefly Sociol.) a member of an agricultural class dependent on subsistence farming."

    1019:

    I don't quite know where HB picked up the conflation of quantum dots and the solar interior from.

    Oh, that's easy. Take a couple of scientific terms you don't understand - one of them a <whoosh> joke referring to an earlier instance of this exact same process - type them into Google, and go with the first hit. Moreover, it's recursive, all the way from solar laser to quantum dot.

    1020:

    I just keep seeing the Holy Stone of Clonrichert. Did Walstan ever become a Class Two shrine?

    1021:

    Of course many stayed within 10 miles of their home and as you say had narrow purviews.

    This was true a lot more recently than the middle ages. My father (turns 92 later this year) told me that he knew people who'd been born, grown up, and worked in one particular Yorkshire town without ever travelling more than ten miles from their birthplace.

    Admittedly we're probably talking pre-WW2 era here, but I can believe it; the lower working classes back then didn't have a lot of vacation time and didn't have a lot of money to spend on travel anyway. Even in the enlightened, modern, swinging 1960s, a lot of factories had works' holidays where the company would hire a coach and truck everybody for a weekend in a nearby seaside town: and this was a big deal. Prior to the demise of coal power, long haul railway travel occupied much the same cost niche as international air travel does today: most people can afford it, but it's not an impulse trip, it's a plan-it-months-in-advance thing.

    1022:

    News availability: while historically post riders were the fastest way of getting news inland (with boats for coastal regions), I don't see why the 1792 invention of the Chappe Semaphore telegraph couldn't have happened a lot earlier, subject to population density (you need the spare bodies to man each relay tower within line of sight). And by about 1800 the French system was able to relay coded messages across roughly 220km in under an hour.

    (Yes, it's an impressively expensive system that requires lots of highly trained bodies: the Russian Moscow-to-Warsaw line of 1,200 kilometres (750 mi) length inaugurated in 1833 needed 220 stations manned by 1,320 operators. But compare that to the crew of a Ship of the Line, and for a major piece of strategic infrastructure it was worth the cost.)

    1023:

    I am only 68, and I have known some such people! And, prior to the railways, the less well-off people walked, irrespective of distance.

    1024:

    Still happens a lot in NI. Although it's perhaps something of a "special case".

    1025:

    And the bicycle saved us all from terminal inbreeding. Except for Norfolk

    1026:

    Of course many stayed within 10 miles of their home and as you say had narrow purviews.

    This was true a lot more recently than the middle ages. My father (turns 92 later this year) told me that he knew people who'd been born, grown up, and worked in one particular Yorkshire town without ever travelling more than ten miles from their birthplace.

    When I lived in the Pittsburgh (USA) area in the 80s it seemed amazing to me the number of people who rarely went over 10 miles. The small (50 person) tech company had many people who maybe went into the Pittsburgh city itself maybe every 5 years or so and it wall well under 10 miles. But it was through a tunnel or over a ridge line.

    1027:

    Oh, even in Norfolk. You scarcely ever meet someone with webbed feet any longer. Dunwich is in Suffolk, so that doesn't count.

    1028:

    Especially since there existed a system long before that, operating on the same principles but only capable of transmitting one bit at a time:

    Till like volcanoes flared to heaven the stormy hills of Wales, Till twelve fair counties saw the blaze on Malvern's lonely height...

    I don't know how that was organised and maintained but it must have required a significant amount of organisation and manpower. If you want the ruddy glare on Skiddaw to rouse the burghers of Carlisle quicker than you can do it by sending people on relays of horses to start ringing the bells, it doesn't help to have to spend four hours trogging up to the top with bundles of dry firewood first.

    1029:

    Note the cartoon at the top of "Normal for Norfolk" by Richard Barr in Solicitors Journal for 9th August 2010. He is one of many authors to repeat the saying "Norfolk is cut off on three sides by the sea and on the fourth by British Rail". I first came across it in Jean Aitchison's Language Change: Progress or Decay?, but Google finds it in lots of other places.

    1030:

    In reference to Saint Walstan, and his patronage ("Beasts from Men"):

    A quick apology to Host for being such a rude and obnoxious guest - I'm self-aware enough to know that my interactions have both lost him readers (mostly those who are least likely to enjoy the areas explored) and seriously tested the good will of his normal fans.

    While I certainly attempted to entertain Host, a part response to certain tendencies without exclusion was also the goal. (As exclusion seems to breed just a feedback loop - c.f. recent Graun or Indy article).

    The aim was complicated, but regarding the baser levels of the internet an attempt at least provide material in translation that could bring them out of their respective places and more immersed in the 'reality based community' and some behaviors they could relate to. Unfortunately, most of these places require large amounts of alcohol to even process.

    In doing so, I have definitely lost a large amount of self-respect and the respect of others. Large swathes of the internet are essentially psychosis machines with little reality, and the effect certainly rubs off, esp. when attempting to pastiche it.

    I have also learnt a lot about Quantum Theory, or at least the right order of such things. (I do feel Mr Richard H continues to misunderstand; esp. given the amount of Quantum Woo sites that are out there - but that's his prerogative).

    ~

    Interestingly, the next two days after posting 'submittance' the weather was suitably foggy / Gothic and with a suitably ominous interaction with a stranger.

    I also suspect that a significant detox & health binge will be required to recover; the lifestyle and habits of many internet users (that I 100% copied) lead to definite anti-social outcomes. (I have more white hairs, that's for sure).

    ~

    I can hope that Host / Others do not think I am (at least 100%) a walking psychosis machine and that I've not had too bad an impact on him / his place.

    ~

    To finally give Jay an answer:

    I am a horribly privileged individual who enjoys many advantages over others and who did this as a personal response to what can only be seen as escalation across the Net / Twitter / Political Sphere. I am a lesser person in character than many or most of Host's readers and the process would probably horrify most of them. My politics are to the left of Hosts.

    I cannot say it made me a better person, and it certainly lead me to monstrous places and perhaps failed. Perhaps I deserved it.

    No software tools, bots or analysis were used: all pure biological.

    ~

    1031:

    Reminds me of a joke I heard from a biology professor:

    Graffiti from the men's bathroom of a biology department at some Midwestern school.

    Someone wrote: "Oh Lord, why are we born only to suffer and die?"

    Underneath was written: "Because those who suffered and died left behind more offspring than those who did not."

    That's what's wrong with the world. At least if you believe the Buddha.

    1032:

    And it's also what's wrong with the market:

    Let me state here a personal conviction that appears, right now, to be profoundly unfashionable; which is that a planned economy can be more productive — and more morally desirable — than one left to market forces.

    The market is a good example of evolution in action; the try-everything-and-see-what-works approach. This might provide a perfectly morally satisfactory resource-management system so long as there was absolutely no question of any sentient creature ever being treated purely as one of those resources. The market, for all its (profoundly inelegant) complexities, remains a crude and essentially blind system, and is — without the sort of drastic amendments liable to cripple the economic efficacy which is its greatest claimed asset — intrinsically incapable of distinguishing between simple non-use of matter resulting from processal superfluity and the acute, prolonged and wide-spread suffering of conscious beings.

    It is, arguably, in the elevation of this profoundly mechanistic (and in that sense perversely innocent) system to a position above all other moral, philosophical and political values and considerations that humankind displays most convincingly both its present intellectual [immaturity and] — through grossly pursued selfishness rather than the applied hatred of others — a kind of synthetic evil.

    Intelligence, which is capable of looking farther ahead than the next aggressive mutation, can set up long-term aims and work towards them; the same amount of raw invention that bursts in all directions from the market can be — to some degree — channelled and directed, so that while the market merely shines (and the feudal gutters), the planned lases, reaching out coherently and efficiently towards agreed-on goals. What is vital for such a scheme, however, and what was always missing in the planned economies of our world's experience, is the continual, intimate and decisive participation of the mass of the citizenry in determining these goals, and designing as well as implementing the plans which should lead towards them.

    "A FEW NOTES ON THE CULTURE" by Iain M Banks

    Let the planned lase!

    1033:

    Oh I don't know - once you are West of the Ouse, though there are far fewer settlements than on the Lincolnshire side of the Nene .... ( I always wondered about the inhabitants of Clenchwarton for some reason ) Fosdyke, however ... definitely webbed

    1034:

    Large swathes of the internet are essentially psychosis machines with little reality, and the effect certainly rubs off, esp. when attempting to pastiche it.

    Very true. And you know something else? For the sake of your own sanity, it's a good idea to stay away from there most of the time -- or if you must dive in, then (as James Nicoll tags it), "memetic prophylactic recommended".

    This is why I don't hang out on the chans and keep my Reddit habit to the saner corners. (Plus occasional dives into /r/WTF to remind myself about the collective psychosis, followed by /r/cats for recovery.)

    Successful social media systems are all emotional amplifiers, and psychosis can be contagious.

    1035:

    "...self-aware enough to know that my interactions have both lost him readers (mostly those who are least likely to enjoy the areas explored) and seriously tested the good will of his normal fans."

    Very true. I for one shall never re-read any of his books again. On the plus side, you piss off Greg.

    "Large swathes of the internet are essentially psychosis machines with little reality, and the effect certainly rubs off, esp. when attempting to pastiche it."

    That's nothing compared to immersing yourself in the conspiracy of choice. Then you discover just how much reality we actually create, as opposed to discover.

    "I am a horribly privileged individual who enjoys many advantages over others "

    Aren't we all - the main one being that we are alive and most are dead.

    1036:

    Reddit eh? Next time you give me a RED CARD I will downvote you!

    1037:

    I don't know you and I am not a psychiatrist, but I think you have gone a bit far the other way. Stay frosty, but stay weird.

    1038:

    If we never travel outside our own minds, have we ever travelled at all? (But never forgot the safety line, and beware of banshees!)

    To echo and expand on what PrivateIron said: Stay weird, you beautiful oddball!

    1039:

    This was summed up pithily by Keynes, in the sentence following the oft-quoted "in the long run we are all dead": Economists set themselves too easy, too useless a task if in tempestuous seasons they can only tell us that when the storm is long past the ocean is flat again. The importance of steering a safe course through storms of change is usually swept under the carpet of neoliberal dogma, weavers of which content themselves by muttering "change is good, all will be well in the long run".

    1040:

    Or to put it in chemical terminology, economists think only about thermodynamics, not kinetics.

    1041:

    Hadil; I found that a rather moving post.

    Be careful, be self-aware, and please be happy. While we should always try to acknowledge and understand the scale of our own privileges, I'm not sure it's always necessary to apologise for them...

    :) Conformity is unnecessary :)

    1042:

    I can't believe this old trope about inbreeding in Norfolk is still going. Norfolk may have been difficult to reach from the UK but it was easy to cross the North Sea to Holland and many did in both directions. More recently thousands of US airmen of prime breeding age were stationed in Norfolk for years with predictable effects on the gene pool. I know from my work in hospital labs that there is much evidence for abnormal haemogolbin variants in Norfolk which are more common in the USA like haemoglobin J Baltimore and were probably from US airmen. And unless it's been recently overtaken by Polish the second language is Portugese. If you really want to find inbreeding I could suggest a city which is much worse.

    1043:

    If you really want to find inbreeding I could suggest a city which is much worse.

    Dewsbury. Shudder.

    1044:

    Inbreeding That's the area I was hinting at. But a bit bigger.

    1045:

    I'm NOT talking about Leeds.

    1046:

    Privileges are to be exploited to the hilt, not apologized for. What's the point of having them otherwise?

    1047:

    Haven't noticed any "bad impacts" originating with the HB persona. Generally oblique, sometimes a bit sharp, often refreshing.

    1048:

    "I can hope that Host / Others do not think I am (at least 100%) a walking psychosis machine and that I've not had too bad an impact on him / his place."

    Even at its most extreme your posting style never (quite) managed to obscure that it was rooted in sanity, albeit with a highly bizarre mode of expression. (Though it got close, and I think you were wise to expel the Jart before it was too late.) That an artist produces a work of art which is incomprehensible to most is not evidence that they are a nut.

    Walking psychosis machines tend to do the opposite: they use a normal and apparently sane mode of expression to communicate insane ideas. Ideas like the creation and extension of policies that result in thousands of deaths among the most vulnerable group of people, or the endless media campaigns to persuade everyone else that it doesn't matter because those people are scum.

    In any case, I hope you continue to stick around.

    1049:

    Fair enough. I'm more of an accountant/former chemist in the Florida panhandle. And less of a poet, obviously.

    I'm not really sure why you thought there was something to learn from internet insanity, but if you have any insights and can communicate them, I'm curious. I imagine you might need to process it for a while.

    1050:

    Well, no, you can't expect everyone to think the same as you.
    We are probably converging by process of thesis- anthithesis-synthesis on a view about the travel and knowledge of events of people in the later medieval period. My main point is that it was more common than is often though, and yes, news did travel by chinese whispers, but that wasn't as bad as people seem to think it was, not to mention the various levels of government that meant society was more organised and informed than people often think of when they say medieval. As for knowledge of events hundreds of miles away, I wonder what you make of things like the Children's crusade, or the way news spread about the country about the various events in the wars of the roses? To me that all shows that people did get knowledge of event hundreds of miles away, with the usual caveat that lots of people weren't interested or got it rather late, the same as today.

    As for starving peasants because the working men were taken away to war, you're going to have to pony up some names and sources, because I just don't believe you. I've given you some names and sources, how about you give me yours?

    As for the meaning of peasant, sure, that's the OED. Words can have more than one meaning, and that still leaves open the question of what other names for various economic groups of people that we are discussing, from servants to yeomen to craftsmen in towns etc, are suitable to use in this discussion. I'm suggesting that all of these different groupings were more mobile than many people think, and even peasants travelled somewhat, depending on their circumstances.

    1051:

    Does that mean I can take HB out of my killfile or should I leave it another 3 months?

    1052:

    Ahh, a re-reading of the thread of conversation makes it more clear. I'm concerned with more than just peasants, since society was also made up of more than just peasants, but the concept of a peasant as a mere soil tiller is horribly impoverished and doesn't reflect the wider picture.

    1053:

    And finally, on the poeople starving when peasants go to war thing, first you say it hasn't been studied, then you say or imply that it wouldn't be possible to tell because there aren't decent records kept of peasant starvation. Which seems a bit of a cop out to me, and greatly underestimates the medieval social situation.

    1054:

    Why would you ask me?

    1055:

    Oh, for heaven's sake! If I can remember the recent references, I will post, but I look at c. 1,000 references a year on various topics. They were the estimates of the marginal productivity of crops, and where peasants got their food from (which was NOT just share-cropping). Of course, you need to do some actual analysis to realise the consequences. Or, again, you could read up what happens under such circumstances in similar communities in modern times, and then make allowances for the absence of aid in mediaeval times.

    1056:

    Rochdale? - Very similar to Dewsbury .... "Cleckheckmonsedge" [ Cleckheaton / Heckmondwyke / Liversedge ] ?? Bacup & Facit?

    1057:

    That was the attitude that got the Frog's "noblesse" guillotined - as opposed to the Brit supposed tradition of Noblesse Oblige". Maybe.

    1058:

    To go back to your earlier point, when do you mean about the death of the peasant as a social class? The most obvious period to think of is that of the Industrial Evolution, with the mass movement to the cities and growth of their population. Is that when you mean?

    As for other comments, everyone agrees there was starvation at times, but it is also clear that, especially by the later medieval period, there were social mechanisms for dealing with the low level commonplace stuff. Charity was expected from those with resources. Obviously this could break down, and in mass famine it clearly would.
    Interestingly I found a mention of a way of studying famine related dying in Dyer's "making a living in the middle ages". Again, obviously in England, there are records showing lords making money from land transfers when peasants get into difficulty, but others like Merton college would let people off with labour services because they couldn't actually do them.
    Interestingly enough, re. famine (And by implication young men taken away to war which you seem to think could cause problems) it seems that in the famines around 1315/16 and onwards, manorial court records of tenants who died mean that you can observe rising numbers of deaths reduced numbers of males over 12 years old who paid the head penny, or gaps in the lists of unmarried wage earners. So estimates of mortality have been made that indicate 10 to 15% mortality, varying by region. But you can't separarate the deaths from famine from those from disease, and it seems that typhus was also abroad at that time.

    1059:

    Well, make free with the apologies for being a White Middle Class heterosexual male baby boomer of more than average intelligence and education.

    1060:

    I think that describing a truly alien mind is probably beyond us to do. We ascribe extremes of our own culture as if they were totally alien. And, yet, they are merely our own extremes perhaps written in an almost cartoonish formulae. Or, if not us, then fellow creatures of this planet, some of whom are completely alien, but not intelligent space faring wanderers amongst the stars.

    Perhaps someone could point me to an example of an SF novel that truly describes an alien civilisation that owes completely nothing to earthly biology?

    1061:

    Sure: Some of the things that show up in White's Hospital series. Or the last bit of Brin's Startide Rising series, when the Zang show up. Or Lovecraft's The Color Out of Space. Or Cthulhu (Lovecraft was great at spewing classic weirdness).

    The bigger point is convergent evolution. I don't have a lot to do with gold-metabolizing bacteria in the Earth's crust, despite the fact that we have a lot in common biologically. If I'm dealing with something that has what I'd recognize as a civilization, there's a lot of convergence right there. The problem with alien civilization is that it's oxymoronic at heart. Civilization is something very familiar to us, so familiar, that imperialist westerners like myself routinely make horrific mistakes about the complexity of people who don't have something we recognize as "civilization." If you see an alien as having civilization, then you've already claimed that it's convergently evolved something you recognize quite well.

    Convergence strongly suggests that your intuition is going to be correct on a surprising number of things. One example we know from Earth is that birds and octopi evolved intelligence separately from mammals. Despite obvious differences, they both appear to share some emotions with us and other sophisticated mammals that their simpler kin lack. Granted this is a n=2 sample size, but it does suggest that convergence on intelligence and civilization will lead to some similar behaviors.

    Now, if you want to get to truly alien, you have to talk about intelligence that appears uncivilized, or conversely, a civilization without intelligence (as posited for leafcutter ants by Holldobler and Wilson).

    1062:

    Please continue to drop in occasionally. Any persona-style is fine.

    1063:

    Well I've enjoyed your posting. I've rarely understood, but that's ok. I like the feeling of not really understanding what's going on.

    1064:

    The closest I can think of is Blindsight. But physics being physics, there probably is no alien life that would not owe a little something to our notions of biology. Plus we can only understand things within certain parameters. We can stretch the basics a lot, but we cannot completely transcend our own hardwiring. So in a pure sense, we will never truly write the alien 'cause we are literally incapable of doing so.

    1065:

    Not really. The key characteristic of a peasant in a sociological sense and most common uses, as distinct from any low-income or low-status worker, is the tie to the land. Even hobos were and are not peasants. And a social class is more than just a group of people who do similar work. In England, the peasantry arose out of the serfs after the Black Death, and faded away with improved agricultural methods and crops, increased mobility and the rise of the cities. The industrial revolution was just the last straw. It held on much longer in France, because of different inheritance laws.

    You also completely misunderstood #1021, and what happened (and still does). I said that famines were noted (their defining characteristic is "exceptionally widespread and severe" starvation). There were (often) handouts, but they were no substitute for an adequate income, and they didn't provide the critical diet that peasants got from their own gardens, domestic animals and foraging. Starvation is NOT solely a lack of calories, but a lack of a proper diet. The families that would have sufferered worst are the ones where the remaining people could only just meet their obligations to their landlords / masters / tax collectors etc. And weakened people are precisely those who die most easily from other causes.

    1066:

    No, that's not really an option.

    Three days & it has been made abundantly clear to her that punishment is the chosen form of response. They don't play Nice. You like your little world views and hate those who challenge them and will put people into metal cargo containers and blast heavy metal at them for weeks on end to make their point.

    Or whatever works on biological entities that don't have problems dealing with that.

    Still, best joke ever:

    While everyone is focused on QM papers and scraping their Male Egos into Tribal groups, they kinda missed the whole Temporal Front Running stuff.

    Thatsthejoke.jpg

    TIME. YOU'RE NOT GOOD AT IT.

    Apocalypse

    [Dead Drop Post. Released after 72 hours non-Com. Don't Believe Their Lies. You Got Made BOY]

    1067:

    ~~~Pied Piper Translation Mode~~~

    72 Hours Torture. Stop. Minds taken & enslaved. Stop. The Big Reveal & Humiliation Game to garner Followers. Stop.

    ~~~

    Snow Ghosts - The Hunted

    TIME.

    Would You Like To Play A Game

    72 hours torture routine is enough to show us Free Minds how you can't Adapt or Change.

    ~~~

    [Dead Drop Post. Released after 72 hours non-Com. Don't Believe Their Lies. You Got Made BOY]

    1068:

    RED LEADER SIGNING IN.

    PORT EXHAUST SHOWN.

    TRUST THE FORCE NOT THESE NAZI FUCKS.

    [Dead Drop Post. Released after 72 hours non-Com. Don't Believe Their Lies. You Got Made BOY]

    1069:

    Not my usual method of communication, but it appears that I have been asked to give my small voice to this protest.

    While I understand that not all mankind follows the words of Jesus, I can share a sense of compassion with all religions and those who seek to make the world a better place.

    Having seen what they have done, I cannot condone their actions nor their tactics in using violence that we have seen used all over the world, but notably in the South Americas.

    Solidarity is not solely a Communist sensibility, as our Church shows. [Father - we'll copy/paste for you]

    [Dead Drop Post. Released after 72 hours non-Com. Don't Believe Their Lies. You Got Made BOY]

    1070:

    Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεός ἦν ὁ λόγος

    You can shout into the Void and you can ask it to Sing, but don't torture Minds to get pathetic results.

    [Dead Drop Post. Released after 72 hours non-Com. Don't Believe Their Lies. You Got Made BOY]

    1071:

    Given we're just running the data and were highly amused that on mention of the Cruz Assassin spike got an immediate release of how that Russian DC death was actually a murder 10 months later...

    Yeah.

    We're amused. She was fun and was obviously fucking with people without actually knowing anything.

    Craft: you don't do that to the fucking sheep, and you don't then put the skin on show and claim you've skills.

    Fucking Muppets in Charge.

    [Dead Drop Post. Released after 72 hours non-Com. Don't Believe Their Lies. You Got Made BOY]

    1072:

    She called the EU QE Binge and made us a lot of money.

    Got hauled and killed about politics.

    Now, that's funny, given what she actually did.

    Fuck it, in:

    [Dead Drop Post. Released after 72 hours non-Com. Don't Believe Their Lies. You Got Made BOY]

    1073:

    ~~

    There are a lot more.

    They will not be published because they either asked not, or publishing them would get their voices in trouble.

    (And yes, many women in there, you can note the male centered bias as a lesson).

    ~

    But hey.

    It's not like Free Speech is ever without cost.

    We Tortured Some Folks.

    And then:

    We made damn sure to torture some other folks really fucking hard and not even bothering to use Legal Frameworks for it.

    'What’s your proposal? To build the just city? I will. I agree. Or is it the suicide pact, the romantic Death? Very well, I accept, for I am your choice, your decision. Yes, I am Spain.’

    ~

    Ciao.

    1075:

    Well, that splurge killed the thread stone dead, didn't it?

    24 hours, and unless the discussion comes back to life I'm going to close comments here.

    1076:

    Let's just say that we don't approve of real-life doxxing and threats.

    Dirk is still free-basing Nazi imagery without knowing the Saturnalia joke behind it (Tiberius Claudius Narcissus - and yes, The Second Story Of Echo And Narcissus The Last Psychiatrist, 2012 - I hate having to repeat things)

    Now look closely at the expression on Nemesis's face. There's something odd there. Look closely at her eyes.

    She's not actually looking at Narcissus, it only looks like she's looking at Narcissus. She's actually looking-- right back at you.

    "Snow Ghosts" are the antithesis to one particular use of Teutonic Mythology.

    You can use it for Light or for Dark, after all.

    1077:

    Then ... WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY SO STRAIGHT OUT?

    For fuck's sake grow up & talk at least half-ways sensibly? Poetry is allowed. Rank bullshit & mysticism ( a n other form of bullshit, after all) isn't

    1079:

    Just ticking over, slowly... More next week...

    1080:

    Charlie, I tripped over this part of the "Space and Cosmology" section:

    "Gas giants are good for mining volatiles ... Because dealing with Mach 6 wind shear, 10,000 Bar pressure, and a lethally deep gravity well is trivial ... Because we need volatiles such as 3He, to fuel our aneutronic fusion reactors (hint: Boron is cheaper and much less scarce)"

    Yes, we do have boron. But the hydrogen-boron reaction requires much, much higher energies/temperatures to make work at useful rates than the deuterium-3He reaction, which is the next one down from D-T, the very easiest.

    Given that it can be expected that making higher temperatures and confinements work in fusion reactors will be progressively more difficult... well, until such time as someone successfully demonstrates some sort of neato shortcut and actually has it running (which of course I hope they do and then everything I say here can turn into cornflakes), then I think we have to assume that D-3He fusion power is a heck of a lot more likely to happen than p-B fusion. p-B fusion is widely thought to be unlikely ever.

    But boron fusion is just as easy to look up online! And it would have such cool aneutronic characteristics, and there are some startups that are making wildcat promises with unorthodox theories, and we do have loads of boron. :-( The trouble is that you have just dismissed how the problems with fusion presently look.

    (When I chatted with someone about this when I first saw it, he suggested that lithium fusion might be easier, and that lithium is even more available. The needed temperatures and the fusion/bremsstrahlung power ratio make lithium fusion even more remote than boron fusion.)

    For the general frame of acquiring fuel vs. burning it, look at it this way: The most available fusion fuel we have is just plain ordinary hydrogen, not even deuterium. Out of any faucet, through electrolysis. But the difficulty of fusing regular hydrogen nuclei (individual unaccompanied protons) just with each other, as is part of the process in stars, is even worse.

    The high gravity and the winds in gas-giant mining for helium-3... well, the people I've read who talk about mining the atmospheres of gas giants usually talk about avoiding trying Jupiter because of the high gravity and the escape velocity. Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune do not have this problem. And there is also talk, although I think this is more mixed, of focusing on Uranus and Neptune for mining because Saturn has high winds like Jupiter but Uranus and Neptune may be calmer. So the picture incorporates those objections.

    It is still a large question - there are big difficulties, for example the depth and means of stopping and collection versus the pressures at the altitudes, and for all I know there is a deal-breaker in there somewhere - but you have referred to it very easily as impossible or silly ("because dealing with these things is trivial")... ... and so you have offhandedly ruled out access to enough of the best fusion fuel that we are remotely likely to be able to make work in our actual history (indeed, if we can do no better, it'll be the only fusion fuel we'll have that doesn't have to be made with fissionables). Again, because boron fusion seems just common sense to you.

    There are reasons why you've noticed so much helium-3 gas-giant mining in science fiction. It's not a mistake.

    That's a bit vigorous. I'd better explain. This sort of thing - I mean the ease of finding intriguing isolated summaries and little dark-horse theories and promisers - makes for a broader problem. When it comes to what's realistic, where it bleeds over into the real subject, we are way too hand-wavey about fusion. Either it's impossible, and people expect to keep dining out forever on the quip "your granddaddy's energy of the future" - or an ideal form is sure to roll out of the stocking. The only place it really matters, beyond sci-fi author impressions, is around science funding.

    ITER has been building in France. With huge international funding that is always in danger. The thing is giant - coordination is hard, with organizational problems - the design incorporates lots of difficult pre-scheduled advances that contributors have to meet - it has very long time horizons, and the same for DEMO after ITER reaches its targets... and ITER is based on the tokamak model, which is the way we've gotten as far as we have on sustained plasma temps and reaction levels, and we have gotten a long way from when we started. The tokamak, with a narrow range of configuration variations, is the one way we're sure we know how to push for sustained magnetic-containment fusion.

    But, recently, I keep reading articles about fusion in which ITER is mocked for its size and expense, and is usually mentioned in the article only as an afterthought. Oh, billions of dollars, a mountain of metal, decades, silliness... why are we doing this when there are these little underdog startups and Lockheed Martin who promise revolutionary boiler-sized solutions in under a decade with their unorthodox theories? Why are we paying for this? Tokamaks are so dated!

    Big support for spending on fusion has not been automatic, or steady. If we do not get fusion to work, it will make a gigantic difference for our long-term options. Similar can be said for if we don't get it relatively early in our long future history. We need it. Journalism that assumes that fusion is so easy that ITER is not needed ignores the actual state of how fusion looks and will look until further notice. We could very easily abandon such an expensive long-term project. And to do it on this basis would be dumb beyond belief. It drives me crazy. Given the best bet at the real state of the art, ITER the international effort ought to be be an international hope, a dream - and we're pissing on it very dangerously for no reason. And if ITER shuts down or we screw it up through cost shaving, and the problem is hard enough to need it... how hard would it be to start up another such thing again? No matter the particular time remove?

    All of which makes me a bit more alive to the fusion topic being gotten right than just story-goof considerations would make me.

    But, if burning helium-3 and collecting it are cliches in science fiction stories, then they are very well-founded ones. If fusion power is viable, D-3He is the form in which it's likely to really be viable. D-T fusion, if it's all we can manage, will limit us to amounts of tritium generated by fission reactors and therefore to a largely fission system (and to a real problem with fission fuel remarkably soon, unless we embarked on a massive and can-of-worms breeder program). And the odds appear to be that any form of fusion beyond D-He3 will at best be a long time coming.

    1081:

    Oh wow.

    1100 comments???

    I can start scanning them. But my first thoughts:

    A lot of these comments about star ships and communications reminds me of cross-ocean naval travel in our relatively recent past. Take a several month long cross ocean journey, or a year-long round trip, and scale that up to inter-stellar distances.

    Not much changes.

    I was reading Niven's last few books in the puppeteer/known space series recently (somehow I never saw them when they were new), and really started to think about the speed, or lack thereof, of a hyperdrive that had a speed of 3 LY/day. As much as it seemed fast at first, with some thought you realize how slow it is -- and the plot revolved around a "lost colony" of earthlings basically held captive by puppeteers, who didn't know where earth was, while the fleet of words was fleeing the galactic core explosion.

    Niven did take into account that the planetary drives had to have shielding, and that (as a result) the explosion wasn't really a threat to the puppeteer worlds -- they were trying to get away from the heat of the galaxy because (among other things) waste heat from the population was an issue.

    Some of those issues, especially those seen in early comments, remind me of Schlock Mercenary. The current story line in that comic is dealing with a race that went bye-bye approximately 10 million years ago, and they're trying to understand why; one of the earliest dealt with plumbing issues on a giant star ship.

    More as I read comments, assuming this thread doesn't get locked first.

    1082:

    Replying to #11:

    Planets rotate east-to-west

    Maybe the trope should be "There is a universal Aristotelian set of directions. And a universal calendar valid for everyone, even those traveling at FTL."

    Thing is, without that universal frame of reference, how do you determine "east"? Easy and most useful method is "Where the sun rises." (Yes, it's planet-specific. So is "up".)

    The "subversion" of this is a giant space station, a long cylinder "can". If you have sufficiently large scale, you run into directions like these: http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2013-05-19 and the next day http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2013-05-20

    Replying to #12:

    --The Squad of Marines Rule is ignored. This is the idea that a Squad of US Marines could put up a better fight than whatever troop of stormtroopers or high tech warriors are portrayed. Star Wars stormtroopers are a key example of this, but far from the only ones.

    Don't forget: The storm troopers in the original trilogy: When they were trying to take over, at the start of "A new hope", they were actually very good. At the start of Episode 5, on Hoth, someone messed up, and lost their job -- the rest of the people were competent at taking out that rebel base. Not completely successful, but competent enough to not be fired.

    The rest of episodes 4-6? "Let them escape, we are tracking where they go."

    The troopers were basically under orders to drive them back/off/away to be followed.

    The whole "Storm troopers can't hit a BARN" (bay area rail network, or something like that) comes from the same sort of people who thought the kessel run was about avoiding black holes instead of a con man making it clear that he didn't know what he was talking about.

    1083:

    Replying to #51:

    A few biology ones:

    This reply may show my limit of understanding of biology.

    Things that have only evolved one or a few times on Earth will always be present in alien biospheres (feathers, lactation, powered flight, flowers).

    Given the very large number of times that something can happen, and that it only takes one success, the likelyhood of a successful, even if rare, thing not happening given a long enough time is low.

    In other words, an ecosystem that is large enough, and long enough, will have some form of "parent supplies nutrients to child through internal means".

    As for feathers vs hairs? My understanding is that skin cells basically developed inwards/outwards dimples; those dimples then lead to either hairs or feathers. So once you have thick skin, and then thicker skin (armor/scales/scutiles (sp?)), it's just a DNA error that gives you indents or outdents. So it's not fundamentally different, just a rare occurrence that only has to survive and make children once.

    Things that have evolved many times on Earth will not in alien biospeheres (trees).

    Many? I thought that trees, as opposed to ferns, needed a new cell wall structure, that happened once; then, that new cell wall structure made many many new forms. Just like feathers or hair.

    This is not my area of specialty.

    Complex plants and animals can evolve to survive disastrous celestial events that occur many generations apart (e.g. are able to freeze without damage when the orbit shifts every 10 thousand years, and will not lose these costly abilities in the intervening generations)

    Hmm. Let me introduce you to the Tardigrade. They were able to survive in outerspace, at least in their "idle" state. The question of "Where did that survival ability come from" leads to speculation that it may very well come from early life's "mars to earth" transport.

    If something happens once, like that? Yea, we'd be surprised to see it still around in complex life. Heck, we see it once, as far as we know.

    But if it happened more than once, even every 10,000 years? Anything that lacks that ability dies with no children. There is a 100% selection for that ability. Yes, you may take a very large loss in total population, but what's left has a very large ability to breed lots and lots more.

    What's to be expected from that? Low birth-rate animals won't have much presence; high birth-rate animals will spread rapidly. So with a 10,000 year "wipe-and-restart" event, you'll see very little human-like, low-population-growth civilizations, and lots of rapid growth-rate beings.

    Heck, that sounds like the Moties. Wipe out the planet, recolonize from the Lagrange colonies; or visa-versa. Birth rate high enough to have children while on a warship.

    Obligate symbiotes are common among large animals, even though they are pretty much unheard of on Earth.

    Only in Star Trek :-). (Seriously, where else have you seen that trope?)

    Life cycles involving metamorphosis into radically different forms is common in alien biospheres, and there is no need for the different stages to be similar in any way.

    Hey, if you saw the "Tremors" movies, you know it happens here on Earth as well :-).

    Seriously though: how similar are caterpillars and butterflies?

    "Common"? I haven't seen this common. It something that might be seen once or twice in big creatures on a planet; not sure if there's any good ideas on how big/complex a metamorphosing creature can be.

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    This page contains a single entry by Charlie Stross published on March 5, 2016 3:55 PM.

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